Why is there a dearth of standard / second class coaches?

Started by pinball, January 17, 2022, 07:15:46 PM

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pinball

I am sure this has been debated to death somewhere, but as someone who is new to modelling - is there any reason why there seems to be a limited supply of standard / second class coaches? I did have a quick search to see if this has been discussed on the forum before, but couldn't find anything quickly - so apologies if this is just a silly repeated question.

Doesn't seem to matter what era / coach from what I can see - seems to affect Mark 1, Mark 2 and Mark 3 coaches in all liveries - but yet plenty of first class, restaurants, brake vans, composites and so on? Nice for the "plastic punters" I suppose!

I'm guessing the standard / second class stuff sells out pretty quickly, but perhaps is there not a case for more runs of these vehicles or even sets of 3 or 4 coaches? I am all for patience and so on and realise that N-gauge has a smaller user base, and accept that a full set of Wessex Mark 2s or whatnot might be not practical. However wouldn't the basics - stuff like maroon / BR Mark 1s, blue grey Mark 2s or Intercity livery all in second / standard HST trailers for example always be reasonable sellers, popular and in demand?

I welcome to be corrected if I'm wrong of course - I am sure there are some good reasons as to why it's not as simple as it sounds.






RailGooner

I often wonder "how well does the British Outline N Gauge industry know/understand it's market?". For example, do they manufacture and release 1st and 2nd coaches in ratios that match how we purchase them? I have more 2nd class than 1st, because the trains I model do. It seems simple and matter-of-fact to me that the industry ought to have a good understanding of demand and be able to match releases to that demand. But, I don't know, when we look at some of their crazy decisions it makes ya wonder!  :hmmm:

Chris Morris

It is a shame that there often isn't a great choice of coach types/liveries available. I'm sure it comes down to economics and production slots.

It does seem that too many first class coaches are made, you would think the manufacturers would know by now.
Working doesn't seem to be the perfect thing for me so I'll continue to play.
Steve Marriott / Ronnie Lane

njee20

I have no reason to refute this other than the pure lunacy of it, but I've seen it said multiple times that Farish produce an identical volume of every individual item, so brakes, firsts, standards... all the same. Hence the standard class coaches sell quickly, as people probably buy 5-6 times as many as they do first class or brake coaches. Madness I tells you.

Gordon

Quote from: pinball on January 17, 2022, 07:15:46 PM
I am sure this has been debated to death somewhere, but as someone who is new to modelling - is there any reason why there seems to be a limited supply of standard / second class coaches?

I haven't modelled UK directly for many many years but I have frequently moaned about this patently ridiculous state of affairs  in relation to European N.  I really cannot fathom why manufacturers don't realise (or bother to realise) that one extremely basic fact about railway rolling stock is that there are fewer first class coaches than second.  Various manufacturers insist on producing coach 'sets' whereby you have to buy a 1st whether or not you need yet another one.

Sometimes, when I've made this point on forums, someone answers 'well you can always sell the spare 1st class' - except that you can't  without losing money because no one else will want another 1st either!

Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

Swiss Railways Consultant
French Railways Consultant
European railway expert

First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

Steven B

I emailed Bachmann last year asking a similar question - and adding why they were re-running Mk2a BSO in blue/grey but not the TSO.

The answer was along the line of we know our market and despite suggestions on various forums we do adjust our batch size based on anticipated demand.

Suffice to say that I feel they don't anticipate demand enough for TSO/SO/SK and if ngauge.org is correct, we really shouldn't be waiting ten years between re-runs of Mk1 SK in maroon.

I'm pestering my usual model shops to ask the Bachmann sales reps to consider more frequent re-runs. Perhaps others could do the same?

Steven B.

pinball

Thanks for all your replies. Seems like it's a problem for all of us. It is mad seeing some ridiculous ebay prices for standard class Mark 2s and Mark 3s, so clearly the demand must be there.

I'd certainly be willing to buy a coach pack of 3 or 4 second class BR blue Mark 1s / Mark 2s / HST trailers as an example. The Dapol Prototype HST came with specific coach packs which seemed to sell (admittedly these did include first class coaches too), so I can't see why this can't be done for other HSTs, nor indeed for other coaches. I'd guess most people buying locomotives to haul passenger stock are going to want at least 3 or 4 standard coaches even if they are running smaller than typical formations.

I suspect again going back to HSTs, most people buying the power cars want at least a 2+5 / 2+6 formation as a bare minimum (ignoring the modern smaller HST formations on GWR and Scotrail for the moment).

Rabbitaway

#7
There does seem to be some very illogical decisions made particularly by Bachmann on coach production runs. A case in point, is to run another batch of inspection coaches when the first batch sold so poorly. Retailers still have some of the first batch on their shelves that are heavily discounted and now also the new ones at full price. These are going to fly of the shelves!

Some manufacturers appear not to understand the n gauge market as pointed out by Railgooner, and then complain there is no demand, well it would help if they produced what people want

pinball

I must admit I like my inspection saloon very much, but at the same time, you are quite correct it is not exactly something which has mass appeal.

I do wonder if sometimes the lack of availability of stuff puts people off N gauge, especially as one of the advantages of it is that you can run full length or near full length trains. Perhaps Mr Kato's 800 and some of the Revolution packs might make some of the bigger boys take notice.

njee20

The 800 isn't really that different from the various 4-car units that Farish/Dapol have done (yes I know it's 1 coach longer!). I think the Pendolino is an interesting example - the 5-car sold really poorly compared to the 9 and 11-car variants, which does suggest the market is happy with longer trains.

I'm minded to agree that selling HSTs as 2+3 and then having maybe a 2 and a 3-car add-on pack would make sense. It always feels a bit random - the prototype HST was sold with coach packs. The Pretendolino buffet was sold that way, in a twin pack with a TSO, but all of the others are sold singly.

Steven B

I'd sell the HST power cars with a buffet and TGS in matching livery, leaving the customer to fill up with first and second class as per the size they can actually run.

Likewise I suggested to Bachmann that they do a Trans-pennine liveried set of a twin pack of Mk1 BG with Mk2a FK with matching Mk2a TSO available as separate item.

I expect we'll start seeing more twin, triple and even quad packs produced (wagons and coaches). Farish have taken this approach with the SR birdcages and Scotrail and West Highland liveries whilst Dapol did it with the B Set coaches. It's also common practice for the likes of Revolution and Accurascale.

Steven B.

njee20

Quote from: Steven B on January 20, 2022, 09:20:54 AM
I'd sell the HST power cars with a buffet and TGS in matching livery, leaving the customer to fill up with first and second class as per the size they can actually run.

I agree that what they've settled on makes most sense, leaving the 'normal' open coaches available separately; but I'd still happily see them in packs rather than individually.

GAD

I suspect it goes back to 00 trainsets. Flying Scotsman with two or three coaches along with controller and rails.
Even at local exhibitions I see 00 layouts with Express Passenger locos pulling 3,4 and 5 coach trains.
Whereas at home I currently have a Minitrix Flying Scotsman with 12 on. My branch line currently has a J39 hauling 4 suburban coaches.

A manufacturer, used to the larger 00 market where roughly equal numbers of 1st and 2nd class coaches are sold merely orders similar numbers in N.

njee20

I doubt that. The OO gauge lot have exactly the same complaint - standard class coaches sell fast, leaving only the less common ones.

CaleyDave

Quote from: Steven B on January 20, 2022, 09:20:54 AM
I'd sell the HST power cars with a buffet and TGS in matching livery, leaving the customer to fill up with first and second class as per the size they can actually run.

Likewise I suggested to Bachmann that they do a Trans-pennine liveried set of a twin pack of Mk1 BG with Mk2a FK with matching Mk2a TSO available as separate item.

I expect we'll start seeing more twin, triple and even quad packs produced (wagons and coaches). Farish have taken this approach with the SR birdcages and Scotrail and West Highland liveries whilst Dapol did it with the B Set coaches. It's also common practice for the likes of Revolution and Accurascale.

Steven B.

I agree in Principle to Multi-packs potentially being a way forward especially for Standard coaches.

Some of the multi packs work really well and I think Steven B picked the examples with the West Highland Line and  B Set coaches.
The West Highland Line coach packs, Brilliant hope they do that in the future especially for less viable/common coaches. Should have been done for things like the Sealink Mk1.

I agree with the idea of HST Box sets with TGS + Buffet (Subbing in as appropriate where things are different). My only concern is that it would make it difficult for those who want to model niche HST sets. Would the Unavailability of Buffets outside of Boxsets make it difficult to mode the HST with Kitchen cars and Buffet cars (First 20 on Western which moved to Eastern and the Tyne/Tees Pullmans).

Counter point would be the importance of getting the sets right.

I have been put off wagon multipacks in the past as I couldn't justify (financially or due to the make up of the train I was attempting to create).
To pick two examples which I believe show that multipacks are not perfect:

The Farish Scotrail TSO + BG are fine if you already have your Dapol/C&M Mk3 with Farish DBSO + 47/7 and only want to make it longer.
There is a missed opportunity for Farish to sell a whole train in the Scratch set push pull which was only made up of non-airconditioned Mk2's.
Maybe I am the sucker as I having been trying to work out what I would do with 3 additional BG should I buy enough sets to give me the 4 TSO required to do so. Equally not being able to sell TSO individually kills off the viability of the Scotrail FK (which is offered in 00) being released in N.

The Highlander is a strange one with the TSO and DMU. If you bought the Train set it is perfect but to anyone else its rather useless. There needs to be another set, probably a rerun of the TSO + BSO from the Trainset with alternative names, otherwise I fear it will sit on the shelf.






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