I am sure this has been debated to death somewhere, but as someone who is new to modelling - is there any reason why there seems to be a limited supply of standard / second class coaches? I did have a quick search to see if this has been discussed on the forum before, but couldn't find anything quickly - so apologies if this is just a silly repeated question.
Doesn't seem to matter what era / coach from what I can see - seems to affect Mark 1, Mark 2 and Mark 3 coaches in all liveries - but yet plenty of first class, restaurants, brake vans, composites and so on? Nice for the "plastic punters" I suppose!
I'm guessing the standard / second class stuff sells out pretty quickly, but perhaps is there not a case for more runs of these vehicles or even sets of 3 or 4 coaches? I am all for patience and so on and realise that N-gauge has a smaller user base, and accept that a full set of Wessex Mark 2s or whatnot might be not practical. However wouldn't the basics - stuff like maroon / BR Mark 1s, blue grey Mark 2s or Intercity livery all in second / standard HST trailers for example always be reasonable sellers, popular and in demand?
I welcome to be corrected if I'm wrong of course - I am sure there are some good reasons as to why it's not as simple as it sounds.
I often wonder "how well does the British Outline N Gauge industry know/understand it's market?". For example, do they manufacture and release 1st and 2nd coaches in ratios that match how we purchase them? I have more 2nd class than 1st, because the trains I model do. It seems simple and matter-of-fact to me that the industry ought to have a good understanding of demand and be able to match releases to that demand. But, I don't know, when we look at some of their crazy decisions it makes ya wonder! :hmmm:
It is a shame that there often isn't a great choice of coach types/liveries available. I'm sure it comes down to economics and production slots.
It does seem that too many first class coaches are made, you would think the manufacturers would know by now.
I have no reason to refute this other than the pure lunacy of it, but I've seen it said multiple times that Farish produce an identical volume of every individual item, so brakes, firsts, standards... all the same. Hence the standard class coaches sell quickly, as people probably buy 5-6 times as many as they do first class or brake coaches. Madness I tells you.
Quote from: pinball on January 17, 2022, 07:15:46 PM
I am sure this has been debated to death somewhere, but as someone who is new to modelling - is there any reason why there seems to be a limited supply of standard / second class coaches?
I haven't modelled UK directly for many many years but I have frequently moaned about this patently ridiculous state of affairs in relation to European N. I really cannot fathom why manufacturers don't realise (or bother to realise) that one extremely basic fact about railway rolling stock is that there are fewer first class coaches than second. Various manufacturers insist on producing coach 'sets' whereby you have to buy a 1st whether or not you need yet another one.
Sometimes, when I've made this point on forums, someone answers 'well you can always sell the spare 1st class' - except that you can't without losing money because no one else will want another 1st either!
I emailed Bachmann last year asking a similar question - and adding why they were re-running Mk2a BSO in blue/grey but not the TSO.
The answer was along the line of we know our market and despite suggestions on various forums we do adjust our batch size based on anticipated demand.
Suffice to say that I feel they don't anticipate demand enough for TSO/SO/SK and if ngauge.org (https://www.ngauge.org/bac_pass_mk1_seconds.php) is correct, we really shouldn't be waiting ten years between re-runs of Mk1 SK in maroon.
I'm pestering my usual model shops to ask the Bachmann sales reps to consider more frequent re-runs. Perhaps others could do the same?
Steven B.
Thanks for all your replies. Seems like it's a problem for all of us. It is mad seeing some ridiculous ebay prices for standard class Mark 2s and Mark 3s, so clearly the demand must be there.
I'd certainly be willing to buy a coach pack of 3 or 4 second class BR blue Mark 1s / Mark 2s / HST trailers as an example. The Dapol Prototype HST came with specific coach packs which seemed to sell (admittedly these did include first class coaches too), so I can't see why this can't be done for other HSTs, nor indeed for other coaches. I'd guess most people buying locomotives to haul passenger stock are going to want at least 3 or 4 standard coaches even if they are running smaller than typical formations.
I suspect again going back to HSTs, most people buying the power cars want at least a 2+5 / 2+6 formation as a bare minimum (ignoring the modern smaller HST formations on GWR and Scotrail for the moment).
There does seem to be some very illogical decisions made particularly by Bachmann on coach production runs. A case in point, is to run another batch of inspection coaches when the first batch sold so poorly. Retailers still have some of the first batch on their shelves that are heavily discounted and now also the new ones at full price. These are going to fly of the shelves!
Some manufacturers appear not to understand the n gauge market as pointed out by Railgooner, and then complain there is no demand, well it would help if they produced what people want
I must admit I like my inspection saloon very much, but at the same time, you are quite correct it is not exactly something which has mass appeal.
I do wonder if sometimes the lack of availability of stuff puts people off N gauge, especially as one of the advantages of it is that you can run full length or near full length trains. Perhaps Mr Kato's 800 and some of the Revolution packs might make some of the bigger boys take notice.
The 800 isn't really that different from the various 4-car units that Farish/Dapol have done (yes I know it's 1 coach longer!). I think the Pendolino is an interesting example - the 5-car sold really poorly compared to the 9 and 11-car variants, which does suggest the market is happy with longer trains.
I'm minded to agree that selling HSTs as 2+3 and then having maybe a 2 and a 3-car add-on pack would make sense. It always feels a bit random - the prototype HST was sold with coach packs. The Pretendolino buffet was sold that way, in a twin pack with a TSO, but all of the others are sold singly.
I'd sell the HST power cars with a buffet and TGS in matching livery, leaving the customer to fill up with first and second class as per the size they can actually run.
Likewise I suggested to Bachmann that they do a Trans-pennine liveried set of a twin pack of Mk1 BG with Mk2a FK with matching Mk2a TSO available as separate item.
I expect we'll start seeing more twin, triple and even quad packs produced (wagons and coaches). Farish have taken this approach with the SR birdcages and Scotrail and West Highland liveries whilst Dapol did it with the B Set coaches. It's also common practice for the likes of Revolution and Accurascale.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on January 20, 2022, 09:20:54 AM
I'd sell the HST power cars with a buffet and TGS in matching livery, leaving the customer to fill up with first and second class as per the size they can actually run.
I agree that what they've settled on makes most sense, leaving the 'normal' open coaches available separately; but I'd still happily see them in packs rather than individually.
I suspect it goes back to 00 trainsets. Flying Scotsman with two or three coaches along with controller and rails.
Even at local exhibitions I see 00 layouts with Express Passenger locos pulling 3,4 and 5 coach trains.
Whereas at home I currently have a Minitrix Flying Scotsman with 12 on. My branch line currently has a J39 hauling 4 suburban coaches.
A manufacturer, used to the larger 00 market where roughly equal numbers of 1st and 2nd class coaches are sold merely orders similar numbers in N.
I doubt that. The OO gauge lot have exactly the same complaint - standard class coaches sell fast, leaving only the less common ones.
Quote from: Steven B on January 20, 2022, 09:20:54 AM
I'd sell the HST power cars with a buffet and TGS in matching livery, leaving the customer to fill up with first and second class as per the size they can actually run.
Likewise I suggested to Bachmann that they do a Trans-pennine liveried set of a twin pack of Mk1 BG with Mk2a FK with matching Mk2a TSO available as separate item.
I expect we'll start seeing more twin, triple and even quad packs produced (wagons and coaches). Farish have taken this approach with the SR birdcages and Scotrail and West Highland liveries whilst Dapol did it with the B Set coaches. It's also common practice for the likes of Revolution and Accurascale.
Steven B.
I agree in Principle to Multi-packs potentially being a way forward especially for Standard coaches.
Some of the multi packs work really well and I think Steven B picked the examples with the West Highland Line and B Set coaches.
The West Highland Line coach packs, Brilliant hope they do that in the future especially for less viable/common coaches. Should have been done for things like the Sealink Mk1.
I agree with the idea of HST Box sets with TGS + Buffet (Subbing in as appropriate where things are different). My only concern is that it would make it difficult for those who want to model niche HST sets. Would the Unavailability of Buffets outside of Boxsets make it difficult to mode the HST with Kitchen cars and Buffet cars (First 20 on Western which moved to Eastern and the Tyne/Tees Pullmans).
Counter point would be the importance of getting the sets right.
I have been put off wagon multipacks in the past as I couldn't justify (financially or due to the make up of the train I was attempting to create).
To pick two examples which I believe show that multipacks are not perfect:
The Farish Scotrail TSO + BG are fine if you already have your Dapol/C&M Mk3 with Farish DBSO + 47/7 and only want to make it longer.
There is a missed opportunity for Farish to sell a whole train in the Scratch set push pull which was only made up of non-airconditioned Mk2's.
Maybe I am the sucker as I having been trying to work out what I would do with 3 additional BG should I buy enough sets to give me the 4 TSO required to do so. Equally not being able to sell TSO individually kills off the viability of the Scotrail FK (which is offered in 00) being released in N.
The Highlander is a strange one with the TSO and DMU. If you bought the Train set it is perfect but to anyone else its rather useless. There needs to be another set, probably a rerun of the TSO + BSO from the Trainset with alternative names, otherwise I fear it will sit on the shelf.
Quote from: CaleyDave on January 21, 2022, 08:43:59 PM
Maybe I am the sucker as I having been trying to work out what I would do with 3 additional BG should I buy enough sets to give me the 4 TSO required to do so.
A short parcels train??
There is certainly a gap and I for one would like to see mk2A / b coaches and are with Steven and Paul pinball and their comments. A pack of 3 or 4 would make a good deal and cheaper than buying individually.
It is quite disappointing that it is so hard to build up a reasonable rake of mk1s or mk2s these days. I guess one problem might be that many of us, like me, have spent years building up a collection of coaching stock and so the law of diminishing sales of re-runs has set in. Still disappointing though. Maybe somebody else should put a foot in the mk1 market and see how it goes?
What I struggle to get my head round is that the "catalogue' will list 20 or 30 (whatever number) of coaches, I'm only ever after the green ones because other then BR (S) nothing else existed :D
If you launch an annual catalogue it is expected by your buying customers that the catalogue items will be available. Now most of us accept that just because we have an "OO gauge model shown" means wecan probably wait 4 years to see it, I see no point in putting them in the catalogue.
BUT the BIGGEST problem is they only ever make one run of each item :o is it wrong to think that while that item sits in your catalogue continual production of that item will take place??? This isnt a misunderstanding of how they have slots in a factory to allow this to happen it's why they dont have a continuous process of manufacturing of their products.
It is a strange concept (to me) that I can produce a catalogue of 500 items, list 60 items as new OO model shown and not actually put that onto shelves for 4 years, list 400 items that have already been released and subsequently sold out, so a stockist can put 40 items of my 500 items on the shelf
(The numbers quoted in this post are pure fictional and no factual content is included other then my failure to understand what relevance catalogues have when it seems nothing we want is available)
One of the issues, as I've been told by various people, is that Bachmann have to 'book' a manufacturing slot for any given product effectively in competition with all the other brands under their parent company Kader. As the British outline brands are relatively minor sales compared to Kader's US lines, it doesn't get that many slots.
That led me to wondering though. If they started doing pre-orders or expressions of interest on models such as second class coaches where they could potentially sell the whole run before they were made (in the style of Revolution's business model) then they'd be able to take that to Kader and say "Look, free money, give us a slot" :)
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 22, 2022, 09:02:37 AM
What I struggle to get my head round is that the "catalogue' will list 20 or 30 (whatever number) of coaches, I'm only ever after the green ones because other then BR (S) nothing else existed :D
If you launch an annual catalogue it is expected by your buying customers that the catalogue items will be available. Now most of us accept that just because we have an "OO gauge model shown" means wecan probably wait 4 years to see it, I see no point in putting them in the catalogue.
BUT the BIGGEST problem is they only ever make one run of each item :o is it wrong to think that while that item sits in your catalogue continual production of that item will take place??? This isnt a misunderstanding of how they have slots in a factory to allow this to happen it's why they dont have a continuous process of manufacturing of their products.
It is a strange concept (to me) that I can produce a catalogue of 500 items, list 60 items as new OO model shown and not actually put that onto shelves for 4 years, list 400 items that have already been released and subsequently sold out, so a stockist can put 40 items of my 500 items on the shelf
(The numbers quoted in this post are pure fictional and no factual content is included other then my failure to understand what relevance catalogues have when it seems nothing we want is available)
I don't really understand why you are talking about annual catalogues with a large number of models in "N Gauge".
Manufacturers stopped this years ago because they could not guarantee when models would actually be physically available to purchase. Mainly due to the current methods of development and production.
GE
@GlenEglise (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9230) so if I trot off today and buy
BACHMANN COMBINED CATALOGUE 2021
EVERY SINGLE ITEM in the Graham Farish range featured in this catalogue branded 2021 is available to buy right now???
If the catalogue wasnt issued in 2021 then according to you theres absolutely no relevance of that date being on there, let alone
Graham Farish 2014 / 2015 / 2016 / 2017 / 2018 / 2019 or even the Bachmann combined 2020????
I didnt produce those catalogues the manufacturer did so cant really understand what part of "annual catalogue " you dont agree with.
I grew up with Triang catalogues, and ok, the world is a different place now, and models are manufactured to a different game plan, but as far as I'm concerned, if a catalogue is out, all models in it should be available in that time period.
Tomix renamed its annual publication of drool pictures from "Catalogue" to "Guide" a few years ago, apparently because people were complaining about items not being available.
Given Bachmann have moved to the three monthly release lists I wonder if the catalogue will wither and die once they've released all of the 'legacy' items in it. It doesn't really serve a purpose at that point, to Craig's point. This isn't just the case in N either. The nature of batch production means that few of the OO gauge models are actually available to buy in the shops.
Quote from: zwilnik on January 22, 2022, 09:20:21 AM
That led me to wondering though. If they started doing pre-orders or expressions of interest on models such as second class coaches where they could potentially sell the whole run before they were made (in the style of Revolution's business model) then they'd be able to take that to Kader and say "Look, free money, give us a slot" :)
Yes, but one assumes that Bachmann US could just do the same with boxcars or whatever and say "look, 10 times as much free money". Your theory would hold if Kader were underestimating the relative demand for UK N, but I'm not sure they are.
It certainly rankles that so little stuff is available regularly though, particularly with reruns. Dapol do it well, Farish really don't. And then there are ludicrous decisions like discounting the NSE mk2s when the Dapol 50 was released. I picked up 10 for £23 each (as was the discounted price at all retailers), unsurprisingly with the 50 out the demand was high, now resale prices are double that, and no sign of a re-run. That's giving away free money!
I wonder if Dapol will rerun TPE 68s to coincide with the Revolution mk5s. It would seem sensible...
The flip side is that we have myriad variants of models now; and that means a batch run. 25 years ago you could always get a mk2 coach, but there were fewer variants, more generic parts shared between models and the quality was lower.
Quote from: njee20 on January 26, 2022, 11:23:13 AM
Quote from: zwilnik on January 22, 2022, 09:20:21 AM
That led me to wondering though. If they started doing pre-orders or expressions of interest on models such as second class coaches where they could potentially sell the whole run before they were made (in the style of Revolution's business model) then they'd be able to take that to Kader and say "Look, free money, give us a slot" :)
Yes, but one assumes that Bachmann US could just do the same with boxcars or whatever and say "look, 10 times as much free money". Your theory would hold if Kader were underestimating the relative demand for UK N, but I'm not sure they are.
This is very true. There's also the argument that while the UK market is a small percentage of Kader's overall sales, it's still a percentage that would look bad on the balance books if they lost part or all of it. They seem to be walking a fine line between keeping UK modellers on side and annoying them to the point where the big money spenders feel they can't risk investing in Bachmann rolling stock as there's a chance they'll only end up with part of the train they wanted and no chance to ever finish it.
It's bit of an oversimplification but it's similar to the concept in advertising that one reason for advertising is purely to keep the market share you already have.
Sorry to go a bit off topic but the situation is even worse for the 16 ton BR mineral wagon, of which there were over 300 000 on the rails during the 50s/60s.
I challenge anyone to find a shop capable of supplying 20 Farish wagons in BR livery (or 20 Peco KNR 207 kits).
Best regards,
Joe
Probably unlikely for a shop to stock 20 of a particular item unless it's a consumable (no- you're not meant to eat them) so tough on anyone looking to buy a rake of them. If Peco have stock then an order from your chosen retailer shouldn't take too long.
If its 20 https://www.petersspares.com/graham-farish-graham-farish-n-wagons.irc (https://www.petersspares.com/graham-farish-graham-farish-n-wagons.irc) havec17 in. Knr207 try anticsonline.co.uk, ttcdiecast.com and hamodels.net and John dutfield
Thanks to you I just bagged 10 Peco KNR 207 kits at a price of £7.17 each (RRP for next production run £8.60), cleaning out TTC Diecast and H&A Models in the process.
Yours truly gratefully,
Joe
Your welcome Joe. Look forward to seeing them constructed. Chris
It's perhaps worth noting that within a few days of the latest Farish delivery arriving at one online retailer, the blue newspapers BG and blue/grey Mk2A BSO had sold out (more expected), whereas the RTC liveried mk2A TSO had 7 in stock.
The Peco HAA at another retailer sold through very quickly too.