N Gauge Forum

I have just had an email from Amazon UK, to the effect that as from 1st January, any goods I buy from the UK will be subject to VAT and Customs duty etc., as they are now when I buy something from Japan or the USA, when they arrive in Ireland. That made me think of two things - i) could I buy from the UK VAT free and ii) presumably, if I buy from another EU country, say the Amazon German site, I would not then be liable for VAT and Customs duty etc.? I have already been informed by An Post that I can not use the 'drop off' system I use at the moment to save on postage, certainly not in the format it is at present.

I am just thinking out loud here and do not want to get all political.  :)

And another thought I just had - how will members who live outside the UK, who can currently buy goods VAT free, fair after 1st January?

Quote from: dannyboy on December 08, 2020, 07:46:52 PM
I have just had an email from Amazon UK, to the effect that as from 1st January, any goods I buy from the UK will be subject to VAT and Customs duty etc., as they are now when I buy something from Japan or the USA, when they arrive in Ireland.

Surely you were already paying VAT on goods bought from a UK supplier, at the UK VAT rate? I say the last bit because different EU countries have different VAT rates, the EU only sets a minimum. I remember buying some software from  a Danish company and being rather peeved at having to pay 22% instead of 15%

QuoteThat made me think of two things - i) could I buy from the UK VAT free

Not sure, it's usually the case that goods sold for export are VAT-free at source and VAT is chargeable upon arrival in the destination country. If we don't reach a free trade deal between the UK and EU then you would be liable for import duties, but I don't know if the deal (if one is struck) would also waive VAT as well as import duties - obviously, the duties if any would depend on the product.

Quoteand ii) presumably, if I buy from another EU country, say the Amazon German site, I would not then be liable for VAT and Customs duty etc.?

That would be my assumption, since both Eire and Germany are in the EU.

What would happen if amazon.de chose to send the goods from a UK warehouse, though, I don't know.
I've frequently bought stuff from amazon.co.uk but the goods have actually come from a warehouse in Germany or Luxembourg. I would hope that any duties, etc. would be based upon the division of Amazon that actually took the order, not the location from which they chose to send the goods.
If we don't strike a trade deal and I get charged for goods coming from, say, Luxembourg when I ordered from the UK Amazon site I'll be extremely annoyed, especially if the website didn't specify the location of the goods.

QuoteAnd another thought I just had - how will members who live outside the UK, who can currently buy goods VAT free, fair after 1st January?

If they aren't in the EU the situation won't change.
If they are they will/should have been paying VAT anyway. They would, without a trade deal, be liable for import duties, I would assume.

Quote from: dannyboy on December 08, 2020, 07:46:52 PM
And another thought I just had - how will members who live outside the UK, who can currently buy goods VAT free, fair after 1st January?

Members who live outside of the EU, can currently buy goods VAT free, but only if the retailer deducts the VAT for them.
So Hattons, Rails, Revolution, et al automatically deduct UK VAT for non EU customers (a 16.66% discount). Smaller suppliers are not always willing/able to do this.

Regards,

John P

Quote from: chrism on December 08, 2020, 08:35:08 PM
What would happen if amazon.de chose to send the goods from a UK warehouse, though, I don't know.
I've frequently bought stuff from amazon.co.uk but the goods have actually come from a warehouse in Germany or Luxembourg. I would hope that any duties, etc. would be based upon the division of Amazon that actually took the order, not the location from which they chose to send the goods.
If we don't strike a trade deal and I get charged for goods coming from, say, Luxembourg when I ordered from the UK Amazon site I'll be extremely annoyed, especially if the website didn't specify the location of the goods.

That won't happen, you don't control that. The more likely outcome is that Amazon DE won't use any UK warehouses and vice versa, in the event there is no trade deal in place.

Quote from: chrism on December 08, 2020, 08:35:08 PM

Surely you were already paying VAT on goods bought from a UK supplier, at the UK VAT rate? I say the last bit because different EU countries have different VAT rates, the EU only sets a minimum. I remember buying some software from  a Danish company and being rather peeved at having to pay 22% instead of 15%

You are quite correct Chris - I do pay VAT, at the UK rate, on goods bought in the UK for delivery to Ireland.  As you say, different EU countries have different VAT rates, my point was that, as of 1st January, the UK will not be an EU country.  ;)

This is the situation here in France so guess it will be the same in Ireland.

If your purchase comes from countries outside the European Union :

In mainland France , receipt of goods from a country outside the European Union is subject to  :

VAT (and other national taxes) from the first euro
and

any customs duties if the value of the order exceeds 150  euros.

This is from French customs website.

@dannyboy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4209)

From Irish Revenue website

https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/buying-of-goods-online-for-personal-use/buying-goods-from-outside-the-eu.aspx (https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/buying-of-goods-online-for-personal-use/buying-goods-from-outside-the-eu.aspx)

Hope this helps.

Thanks for that Dancess, (I think  :)). Looks like my sister and brother are going to be buying me some extra presents.  ;). A bit of a b*gger though, my nearest model shop is in Northern Ireland and the nearest decent one, (as far as I know), is in Dublin - 100 miles away - or as we say in the EU, 160 kms.  ;D

I wonder if going via Northern Ireland will make life easier?

Quote from: Jim Easterbrook on December 08, 2020, 10:02:18 PM
I wonder if going via Northern Ireland will make life easier?

The argument with that is that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. I don't pretend to understand a small fraction of what exactly is happening, (and I would hazard a guess that very few members of the forum understand exactly what is involved), but I know one of the problems has been the Northern Ireland situation and the fact that there is a land border between the two countries. As I said though, I do not want to get political - all I know is that if I buy owt from the UK, it will cost me more.  :'(

Quote from: jpendle on December 08, 2020, 08:50:36 PM

Members who live outside of the EU, can currently buy goods VAT free, but only if the retailer deducts the VAT for them.
So Hattons, Rails, Revolution, et al automatically deduct UK VAT for non EU customers (a 16.66% discount). Smaller suppliers are not always willing/able to do this.

I very rarely - maybe once? get a VAT charge - to add to JP's namecheck, my regular suppliers - ModelRailwaysDirect, YouChoos, DCConcepts, Osborn's, TMC, Kernow, CRSignals (my apologies if I've missed anyone) automatically deduct VAT from the quoted prices. I can't remember who assessed VAT on an export, but it was small potatoes and not worth the candle making a fuss about it.

We will all have to watch out for the other change coming in on the 1st January 2021 and that is import duty on all things coming into the UK from anywhere in the world (unless there are any agreement in force at the time)

What this means is if for example you buy something from China on eBay and get one of those 99p including free shipping items Chinese sellers on the bay are famous for you will find it may attract duty and handling fees, duty it not the problem, the likes of Royal Mail will charge you £8 for collecting the few pence duty.

I have had a couple already even though it's not officially starting till next month.

I suppose it's one way of killing trade with China

Just a heads up, it's coming soon.

NGM

It shouldn't make a massive difference to most people.  You should be paying no duty as the tariff for pretty much all model railway items is 0.

VAT is (mostly *) charged at the rate of the place of supply ie:
- if you buy from the UK (assuming no deal) then no UK VAT would be charged but you would have to pay VAT on import to Ireland ie the net difference would be +1% (currently) as UK VAT is 20% and IE VAT is 21%. Conversely if you live in a country with a lower VAT rate (Germany?) then you will save a small amount of money.
- if you buy from a different EU Member State then you will pay VAT at the rate of the supplying country ie no change

* place of supply rules can be complicated particularly for things like software where the place of supply can be your country

Cheers Mike

Quote from: red_death on December 08, 2020, 10:45:32 PM
It shouldn't make a massive difference to most people.  You should be paying no duty as the tariff for pretty much all model railway items is 0.

I'm afraid that is mistaken. Tariffs are not the same thing as import duty. Basically, even with a deal, buying from EU countries will have the same faff and expense as buying from places like Plaza Japan, with customs and handling charges added on to orders. That is because we are leaving the customs union.

Worse still, it looks as thought the UK government is trying to push processing UK VAT on to overseas retailers. This is something that small businesses will be unlikely to want to process.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/william-shatner-stop-merchandise-to-uk-122643199.html

Personally, I cannot see that policy being politically sustainable but who knows with this lot?

Another thing; Shapeways prints their stuff in the Netherlands so we are not just talking about people who like exotic European trains here!

Quote from: Paul J on December 16, 2020, 10:14:50 AM

Quote from: red_death on December 08, 2020, 10:45:32 PM
It shouldn't make a massive difference to most people.  You should be paying no duty as the tariff for pretty much all model railway items is 0.

I'm afraid that is mistaken. Tariffs are not the same thing as import duty. Basically, even with a deal, buying from EU countries will have the same faff and expense as buying from places like Plaza Japan, with customs and handling charges added on to orders. That is because we are leaving the customs union.

Worse still, it looks as thought the UK government is trying to push processing UK VAT on to overseas retailers. This is something that small businesses will be unlikely to want to process.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/william-shatner-stop-merchandise-to-uk-122643199.html

Personally, I cannot see that policy being politically sustainable but who knows with this lot?

Sorry Paul but that is incorrect - you are mixing duty and VAT.  Tariffs and duty are the same thing - when we import our products from China (or the USA or Japan as you say) we pay import VAT, but the tariff is 0 (under WTO rules) so the duty is 0.  Import VAT is paid at the UK standard rate of 20%.

Hi

Thanks for the correction; it was me who mixed it up. I did not notice you worked in the sector when I posted. Let's just hope we are able to reclaim European VAT at European websites!

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/9503003000 (https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/9503003000)

Just checked the situation for Germany:
https://www.zoll.de/EN/Businesses/Movement-of-goods/Brexit/brexit_node.html;jsessionid=C9E3856A5168C30AC1146D72F5BE536E.live4412 (https://www.zoll.de/EN/Businesses/Movement-of-goods/Brexit/brexit_node.html;jsessionid=C9E3856A5168C30AC1146D72F5BE536E.live4412)

Apparently the UK will leave the Customs Union on 31st December, irrespective of any deal/no deal. For Northern Island:
"The Northern Ireland Protocol set out in the Withdrawal Agreement stipulates that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK's customs territory, but that all relevant EU internal market rules and the EU Customs Code will apply in Northern Ireland. This means that although Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the UK, for customs purposes it will be treated as if it were part of the customs territory of the Union."

Unfortunately there seem to be no exceptions to VAT like France, unless things go person to person. Even there, you are going to have to fill out the little green customs declaration and stick it to your package - remember them? Back to the future!!

The question is whether the NGS shop will deduct VAT at source?

Peter

Hi,
Watchin' the Italy daily news...it seems the only difference from Brexit will be that UK is going to leave  "Erasmus"  (Universitary interchange project) , will need passport to came there...and EU students and workers need a quote study or salary €28.000 minimum to access to study and job UK  universe....the rest (VAT, import/export duties ecc. ecc) will remains the same.

Marco

Now a deal has been done we will have to wait and see what the effect will be.

Marco

UK citizens need passports even now as we have never been in Schengen.

From the point of view of modellers, the big change will be loads of red tape for importing stuff. If one cannot reclaim VAT from the vendor, you can expect to pay it twice I think, which of course is a compounded charge. Not sure though. There will be handling charges so buying stuff from abroad will be more expensive unless you get lucky and the parcel is waved through, which can sometimes happen.

The most likely difficulty will be for UK layout owners exhibiting abroad, as you will need customs clearance for items to are taking out to prove they were not purchased abroad when you re-enter the country. This either means an itemised list of every item taken (a duplicate list) in duplicate with a form, plus dealing with EU customs or forking out £326 for an ACA Carnet. A lot will depend on now customs are enforced, as these requirements are in practice ignored for personal effects such as cameras or phones when it is obvious they are not items for smuggling. I fear a layout and stock will attract quite a bit more attention.

I would be delighted to be corrected on the above paragraph, but I have looked this up on the UK government website.

These are examples of non-tariff barriers which will become the next Brexit related debate after January 1st. As the Swiss know to their cost, staying out of the EU means having to debate this stuff for ever and ever and ever and ever :sleep:

Quote from: Paul J on December 25, 2020, 09:36:20 PM
Marco

UK citizens need passports even now as we have never been in Schengen.

From the point of view of modellers, the big change will be loads of red tape for importing stuff. If one cannot reclaim VAT from the vendor, you can expect to pay it twice I think, which of course is a compounded charge. Not sure though. There will be handling charges so buying stuff from abroad will be more expensive unless you get lucky and the parcel is waved through, which can sometimes happen.

The most likely difficulty will be for UK layout owners exhibiting abroad, as you will need customs clearance for items to are taking out to prove they were not purchased abroad when you re-enter the country. This either means an itemised list of every item taken (a duplicate list) in duplicate with a form, plus dealing with EU customs or forking out £326 for an ACA Carnet. A lot will depend on now customs are enforced, as these requirements are in practice ignored for personal effects such as cameras or phones when it is obvious they are not items for smuggling. I fear a layout and stock will attract quite a bit more attention.

I would be delighted to be corrected on the above paragraph, but I have looked this up on the UK government website.

These are examples of non-tariff barriers which will become the next Brexit related debate after January 1st. As the Swiss know to their cost, staying out of the EU means having to debate this stuff for ever and ever and ever and ever :sleep:

Hi,
about 1St part...I was talking about EU citizens coming to UK....'til 31/12 will need IC (Identify Card...similar to a credit card ) only.....after we will need passport with sign of the UK embassy..

Marco

Quote from: Paul J on December 25, 2020, 09:36:20 PM
The most likely difficulty will be for UK layout owners exhibiting abroad, as you will need customs clearance for items to are taking out to prove they were not purchased abroad when you re-enter the country. This either means an itemised list of every item taken (a duplicate list) in duplicate with a form, plus dealing with EU customs or forking out £326 for an ACA Carnet. A lot will depend on now customs are enforced, as these requirements are in practice ignored for personal effects such as cameras or phones when it is obvious they are not items for smuggling. I fear a layout and stock will attract quite a bit more attention.

I remember that one of my first exhibitions with my module group was at the "N-Bahn Club beider Basel" in the late 1990s, before Switzerland joined Schengen. One of the organizers had a van which we filled with modules and stock on the German side of the border. We knew that we had to have the list of equipment and pay a deposit of CHF300 at the Swiss customs, but forgot completely about the German customs. When we came back, we picked up our deposit from the Swiss, who did not bother to look into the van at all, but we were stopped by a German custom's man. He wanted to see what we had in the van - luckily he could see only the modules, which we told him were worth about €50 each. He gave us a lecture about how to do it properly next time and then let us through.

Peter

Alcazar

According to the UK government website, the duplicate list needs to be on business headed notepaper, and the attached form has a section for company details? Was that a requirement in that case, and if so how was it met?

The first time I took my layout out to Germany in 2003 I was advised by a friend in Customs & Excise to make sure we had a fully detailed inventory listed out just in case.  In the end it wasn't asked for at any point.

Subsequently when the layout has gone abroad twice more it's travelled as part of East Surrey N Gauge Group's van load.  I've not provided an inventory on those occasions.  I don't recall the guys ever mentioning a need for one and they go over pretty much every year.  Of course the rules change now, so might have to make sure I make a list for any future adventures.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on December 26, 2020, 05:10:05 PM
The first time I took my layout out to Germany in 2003 I was advised by a friend in Customs & Excise to make sure we had a fully detailed inventory listed out just in case.  In the end it wasn't asked for at any point.

I have taken a layout abroad before without a duplicate list as we were in the customs union.

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily/duplicate-list (https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily/duplicate-list)

QuoteBefore you export the goods, prepare a list on company stationery. Include:

    a description of the goods
    how many there are
    serial numbers, if the goods have them
    value of the goods

At customs, you'll need to provide:

    2 copies of the list
    a completed form C&E 1246 (PDF, 638 KB)

Quote from: Paul J on December 26, 2020, 04:57:09 PM
Alcazar

According to the UK government website, the duplicate list needs to be on business headed notepaper, and the attached form has a section for company details? Was that a requirement in that case, and if so how was it met?

It's a long time ago, but I think that we just had a formal invitation on headed paper from the exhibitor and attached the listings to that. If you are going as a club, you can probably satisfy the requirements anyway.

Did you exhibit in Stuttgart?

Peter

Although probably not a much of a problem with N gauge VAT is charged on the value of goods plus the cost of the postage when bringing stuff into the UK. Parcelforce charge twice that of the Royal Mail at around £14 for handling the VAT payment. In my experience of buying G scale items from the States there is also a delay of about two weeks between stuff arriving in the UK and me being billed for the VAT - it spends longer awaiting customs clearance than it does in transit from the States. Being charged VAT on the postage (which is zero rated in the UK) always racked me off especially when the postage could be in the realms of £60-£80.  Buying items from within the EU used to be  quick and cheap but I expect it will now be the same as buying items from the States - slow and expensive.

Quote from: Chris Morris on December 29, 2020, 09:38:19 AM
Buying items from within the EU used to be  quick and cheap but I expect it will now be the same as buying items from the States - slow and expensive.

Yeah thanks a lot Brexit  :veryangry:   So much for us coming together as one global market.   I've probably made my last EU ebay purchase for a while until things become clear. I've got one item on the way, hoping it makes it before New Year  :D

Perhaps it will encourage UK manufacturers to get off their behinds and make stuff here.

Quote from: steve836 on December 29, 2020, 10:31:16 AM
Perhaps it will encourage UK manufacturers to get off their behinds and make stuff here.

Why would Brexit have any impact on where things are manufactured? Most model trains (for example) are manufactured in China - Brexit has no impact on the manufacturing side as nothing has changed. The impact of Brexit is on the sales side of things which will become more burdensome for businesses exporting from the UK to the EU or for customers importing from the EU to the UK.

It shouldn't affect where model railway stuff is made. It could affect other things.
For instance there is an 80% (or around that level) tariff on ebikes from China into the EU. Whether this is because China is dumping or the EU being protectionist is not for debate here. Because of this tariff there are a number of smallish companies building ebikes in the UK using largely Chinese parts. If this tariff is dropped by the UK then it is likely that the UK assemblers will struggle but there should be plenty of very cheap Chinese ebikes available.  So if you are looking for a cheap ebike it may be worth waiting a few months.

I suspect I shall still buy most of my new rolling stock from European sellers like MSL and DMT as I don't expect much of a change in their service other than a dearer postage rate, and perhaps a slower delivery. Nothing is ever so urgent that I must have it straight away.

Time will tell, and if things change drastically then I shall do what I've always done: look around for the best service/price/delivery combination.

Whatever the overall item prices turn out to be from manufacturers and retailers all across the World in the future, if I want a particular item, I will have to pay the going rate.

Quote from: Alcazar on December 29, 2020, 09:23:18 AM
Did you exhibit in Stuttgart?
Peter

It was in Boulogne sur Mer with my RhB layout with my friend Gordon (of this forum). I have also done so several times with his layouts. I did go to Stuttgart as a punter back in 2017.

We are both members of the same club so that should provide a work-around for that problem.

Quote from: Chris Morris on December 29, 2020, 11:34:14 AM
Because of this tariff there are a number of smallish companies building ebikes in the UK using largely Chinese parts. If this tariff is dropped by the UK then it is likely that the UK assemblers will struggle but there should be plenty of very cheap Chinese ebikes available.

As I understand it, the rules of origin aspects of the agreement come into force in 2026. This is probably to keep Nissan in the UK until after the next election.

So those UK e-bike manufacturers should be able to sell until then before being slapped with tariffs to sell into the EU.

From the Guardian
Quote;
Holidaymakers or online shoppers who buy items from the EU that are valued at more than £390 will have to pay customs duties, the government has revealed.

VAT and handling fees may also apply on some items, while parcels may be held up in post offices until all duties and fees have been cleared by the recipient in the UK.

It(Royal Mail) said: "For items under £135 (with the exception of gifts), VAT will be collected directly when they buy the goods online. For goods with a value over £135 (and gifts over £39), Royal Mail may collect the VAT and customs duties from the customer prior to delivery. These charges are applied on behalf of HM Revenue & Customs."

The gov web site was like going down a rabbit hole with the information so well hidden I could not find it. I also tried Post Office site - ditto result.

Tony

@gawain (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=373)   yes seen that same info quoted on a G scale forum.

So what I'm not quite clear about is how this will affect me when buying something from Ebay Germany or directly from a German shop such as DM Toys?

luckily, my main 'imports' are for wargames stuff from China, and yes I do suitably sanitize before opening, wash hands, sing happy birthday, distance myself from SWMBO, well she doesn't need to know what I've bought  >:D

then a wee dram, internal sanitization, then open the bag....

one thing to remember is, over £15 attracts VAT, which then attracts RM's £8 admin charge, but as they come with free postage, I just make sure that no order is over £14.00  :thumbsup:

mind you, this does mean more parcels, hence more internal sanitization  :beers:

it's a hard life. :bounce:

The big impact for UK outline modellers I would expect is stuff from Shapeways which is printed in the Netherlands.

I think that buying from a shop will be less of a problem and they will simply deduct VAT from purchases which you will have to pay. So, other than some handling fee it won't make a huge difference.
Buying from ebay from a private seller or small businesses which can't deduct VAT from a price means you will have to pay UK VAT, so this will get expensive.


In December I have made a final EU-internal purchase from a UK dealer, and he has this on his website:

Quote from: www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/

BREXIT, VAT and EU Customers

I HAVE READ THROUGH HUNDREDS OF PAGES OF LEGISLATION AND AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, TRADING WITH EU CUSTOMERS WILL NOT BE AFFECTED

VAT WILL STILL BE CHARGED BY ME AND NO OTHER COSTS WILL BE LEVIED IN THE RECEIVING COUNTRY



I can't believe this to be true. I think if I would order again from him and he doesn't deduct VAT, then I would have to pay Austrian VAT of 20% of the full purchase price+shipping. Don't think that I will try out this soon.

For UK imports from the horse's mouth:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users)

Hiawatha

Yeah, he looks to have misunderstood.

It is easy to confuse tariffs, VAT and duties (which I did earlier on in this thread). I think it is fair to say that some British businesses are on a steep learning curve.  :doh:

To be fair to him, I am presuming he does not pay VAT on his imports as a VAT registered business. Not the same for the end consumer.

Quote from: Paul J on December 29, 2020, 02:39:15 PM
The big impact for UK outline modellers I would expect is stuff from Shapeways which is printed in the Netherlands.

I doubt 1% of modellers ever buy anything from Shapeways, and that's probably dwindling thanks to their self sabotage!

We'll soon find out where the impact is. Not really much point in arguing about it, which is not what I come here to do anyway.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 29, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
For UK imports from the horse's mouth:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users)

I love all the references to "toilet waters" in there. Are we going to translate all french phrases and names now?!

Quote from: njee20 on December 29, 2020, 04:16:00 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 29, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
For UK imports from the horse's mouth:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users)

I love all the references to "toilet waters" in there. Are we going to translate all french phrases and names now?!

Looks like a fait accompli. :)

(Actually, I think customs and excise have used the English for a long time, trying to think back to what it said on the "nothing to declare" allowances posters.)

As a small trader - admittedly not of model railway items but R/C scale ships - this is going to hit us with EU customers.

We dont charge VAT as we are under the threshold and it is not worth the hassle.  To date, our EU customers have paid the same price for their kits as UK customers.  No longer going forward - EU customers are going to be clobbered by their own VAT plus other charges on import into their own country, thereby increasing the real price of our kits by circa 20% (anything from £100 to £150 extra!!).

Might as well shut up shop - EU customers were over 60% of our business...........

I have taken a look at DM Toys this morning.

When you switch to UK delivery, the VAT at 19% is removed from the listing but the price stays the same. So, unless I am missing something, I presume that I will effectively be charged VAT twice with compounding when I pay import VAT.

::)

I am concerned about the impact this will have on our hobby. Luckily the majority of my products count as "Printed Material" and can be sent as letters. Buying items from European suppliers, such as Shapeways is a worry, particularly as I intend to branch out into more continental items in 2021.

Hopefully, level heads will prevail on both sides and we can move to a more beneficial trading relationship down the line.

I tested the Modelbahnshoplippe website. It looks like they knock off the VAT properly at checkout.

Trains160 does not knock off VAT, but I know that Lionel Barbier is more of a one man band so I would not expect that facility on that site just yet. I can ask him about it in due course if needed as he is a good guy.

The reason we have to do this is because the UK did not ask to be included in the customs union and single market in order to end freedom of movement which is an indivisible part of the single market. This is a simple statement of fact; whether it is worth it or not is entirely down to the UK government and electorate. But no point in arguing about it here.

I checked DMToys before Brexit and this seems to be their normal procedure for non-EU/EEA countries. I don't see how it is not a straightforward rip-off on their part and not part of a transitional policy. Knocking off VAT properly should not be difficult with propriety website software.

If there is no VAT charged as it is part of the price charged, then there is nothing to reclaim when importing surely?

I agree that we should not judge smaller operators yet, as I hope I made clear! 😊

I think the DMToys position will become the default position for many EU hobby retailers selling (in the past) to the UK, so effectively a 20% price increase and a higher shipping charge, in line with their previous policy for selling outside the EU. It will probably affect their trade to a  small extent especially if one or two like Modelbahnshop Lippe break ranks. It could also help some of the UK retailers of continental items who will find themselves with a 15% price advantage over the EU sellers.

To some extent it will depend on the size of the order, whether it exceeds the free threshold for VAT/Duty, and the extent to which VAT is charged on imports from the EU. Choice of carrier might also influence whether VAT is charged.

Starting to see ebay listings from Europe with "20% VAT will apply" especially those for one or two French sellers, whilst others saying the 20% VAT is included in the price.  The "Postage and Payments" tab gives the info.

[edit] Also seen the 20% will apply on a few listings from Russian Federation.

Yes, I've seen "20% VAT will apply" on eBay listings too.

Not sure I understand the DM Toys position - are you saying they remove the 19% VAT, and then conveniently charge 19% 'fees' to cover the additional admin...? That seems ludicrous.

Quote from: njee20 on January 01, 2021, 08:23:25 PM
Not sure I understand the DM Toys position - are you saying they remove the 19% VAT, and then conveniently charge 19% 'fees' to cover the additional admin...? That seems ludicrous.

No, they list an item at 100 euros (for example) and say that this includes German VAT at 19%, if you then set the delivery country to a non EU/EEA destination then the price remains the same with no mention of VAT. So either, they are paying too much VAT to the German VAT man, or they don't have any competitive pressure to deduct VAT for non EU customers.

All the retailers I use in the UK have always deducted VAT for non EU purchases, I have come across one or two small shops that don't, so I don't use them. The 16.66% discount on my purchases more than covers the shipping to the US.

Regards,

John P

Quote from: ntpntpntp on January 01, 2021, 04:28:30 PM
Starting to see ebay listings from Europe with "20% VAT will apply" especially those for one or two French sellers, whilst others saying the 20% VAT is included in the price.  The "Postage and Payments" tab gives the info.

[edit] Also seen the 20% will apply on a few listings from Russian Federation.

I think the 20% VAT feature will apply to Ebay purchases from outside the UK. It has appeared on Far Eastern listings from today.

It looks like the story about HMRC forcing international sellers to register for UK VAT is true for transactions below £135.

Can't see many sellers doing that and continuing to sell small quantities to the UK...or that policy lasting long politically. But who knows?

Quote from: Paul J on January 02, 2021, 09:37:29 AM
It looks like the story about HMRC forcing international sellers to register for UK VAT is true for transactions below £135.

Can't see many sellers doing that and continuing to sell small quantities to the UK...or that policy lasting long politically. But who knows?

In the Ebay case they are probably acting as a registered agent, to embrace all sellers without their own UK registration.

Quote from: Paul J on January 02, 2021, 09:37:29 AM
It looks like the story about HMRC forcing international sellers to register for UK VAT is true for transactions below £135.

Can't see many sellers doing that and continuing to sell small quantities to the UK...or that policy lasting long politically. But who knows?

This one really puzzles me. How on earth can HMRC enforce that?

E.g.  Fred's Trains in the US have a website and a UK resident decides to buy something from them. Fred duly sends the goods with a properly filled out customs form from the US Post Office.

What happens when the goods arrive in the UK? Does RM return the item as no VAT has been paid, do they contact the seller for the VAT, or do they contact the buyer?
Has anyone actually broken any law?

Regards,

John P

Quote from: jpendle on January 02, 2021, 04:01:01 PM

Quote from: Paul J on January 02, 2021, 09:37:29 AM
It looks like the story about HMRC forcing international sellers to register for UK VAT is true for transactions below £135.

Can't see many sellers doing that and continuing to sell small quantities to the UK...or that policy lasting long politically. But who knows?

This one really puzzles me. How on earth can HMRC enforce that?

E.g.  Fred's Trains in the US have a website and a UK resident decides to buy something from them. Fred duly sends the goods with a properly filled out customs form from the US Post Office.

What happens when the goods arrive in the UK? Does RM return the item as no VAT has been paid, do they contact the seller for the VAT, or do they contact the buyer?
Has anyone actually broken any law?

Regards,

John P

Good question! Beats me!

If a package arrives without VAT pre-paid then Royal Mail go back to using the old BOTTOM system (Back On To The Old Method). They send the receiver an invoice for the VAT plus their fee, and deliver after the invoice has been paid.

If the VAT is pre-paid, then they just deliver the package as no charges are due.

So as said, it's hard to imagine anyone doing that! So buying from anywhere just got markedly harder, not just the EU. Happy days.

Quote from: njee20 on January 02, 2021, 04:51:18 PM
So buying from anywhere just got markedly harder, not just the EU. Happy days.

No, buying from the US and other non-EU countries has always been that way.

Regards,

John P

Not with HMRC suggesting foreign retailers may like to collect VAT as per your example...? Note I didn't say more expensive (as the buyer always paid the VAT), but it sounds like they've put a load of new systems and process in, which no one will use, so we'll just default to what happened before.

I assume that HMRC is looking at a similar system to that introduced by Australia a few years ago, whereby the largest foreign online retailers were persuaded to collect GST (ie VAT) on their Australian sales. The motivation for all parties is the exemption of deliveries from the slow, tiresome and costly process of collecting tax at the border.

Foreign retailers with Oz sales below a threshold (and that includes the likes of Rails and Hattons) are not obliged to charge GST and it's not levied at the border either on parcels worth less than A$1000/GB570, so UK modellers here are doubly blessed.

It sounds like it, be interesting to see if anyone does. Given European retailers don't generally even deduct VAT for non-EU purchasers I don't hold out much hope. Postage from the US is usually laughably expensive, so adding 20% for the VAT at source is unlikely to help.

Basically it's really rubbish!

There seems to be some confusion about VAT here. You have to be registered as a business before you can charge VAT, and normally there is a limit on turnover, below which you can opt out of charging it. Since I retired I have been working freelance, and because most of my contracts were in Switzerland, I opted out. In any case, no VAT is charged on services that are provided across borders.

For retailers, however, VAT can be charged and reclaimed at the border of the country where the goods were sold, provided you have the appropriate customs forms. I see this everyday when Swiss queue at the custom's post just down the road to reclaim their 19% VAT on their purchases. Normally, they would then have to pay the Swiss rate at the other side of the border, but they have a tax-free limit of CHF 300 (I think), so most don't pay anything. The Swiss customs do occasionally have checks at the border or further down the road to find malingers.

In the other direction, no one bothers, as Swiss VAT is less than German VAT. Living on the border we have a tax free limit of €80, but it is more if you live further inland.

It follows then, that anything entering the UK will be subject to to UK VAT. If your European retailer does not take off the VAT at source you are left with the problem of paying it twice, although the tax-free limit of £135 will apply. We'll have to see whether the green custom's declaration takes VAT into consideration. You can be sure that the carrier will charge for collecting VAT in the UK, so there will be additional costs. That is one of the consequences of leaving the free market.

Private sales are not subject to VAT, so when e-bay quotes 20%, it can only be on it's services. However, how are the customs going to be able to differentiate between a private and commercial sale?

Peter

I've looked this morning at 3 German bike shops I've used before. All three have totally stopped selling to the UK (which would have been a big market in each case - one even had a .co.uk domain), they just have this message:


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/104/1147-030121132657.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=104062)

The Ebay VAT collection policy is here and appears to apply to all purchases up the GBP135. That should trim back sales.

https://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/global-sales/2021-vat-changes

Quote from: njee20 on January 03, 2021, 01:28:21 PM
I've looked this morning at 3 German bike shops I've used before. All three have totally stopped selling to the UK (which would have been a big market in each case - one even had a .co.uk domain)

I'd check again in mid-January - hardly anyone works over the Christmas and New Year break in Germany, and this year most will start again on January 11th. As the agreement didn't arrive until Christmas Eve, I imagine they just played it safe until they knew what was happening.

Peter

Maybe this explains everything (from the Mirror):
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/eu-firms-suspend-deliveries-to-the-uk-over-ludicrous-new-brexit-tax-rules/ar-BB1csF0t?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/eu-firms-suspend-deliveries-to-the-uk-over-ludicrous-new-brexit-tax-rules/ar-BB1csF0t?ocid=msedgntp)

Peter

Quote from: Alcazar on January 04, 2021, 05:57:13 PM
Maybe this explains everything (from the Mirror):
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/eu-firms-suspend-deliveries-to-the-uk-over-ludicrous-new-brexit-tax-rules/ar-BB1csF0t?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/eu-firms-suspend-deliveries-to-the-uk-over-ludicrous-new-brexit-tax-rules/ar-BB1csF0t?ocid=msedgntp)

Peter

Exactly the same story on the BBC website.

There's a quote from HMRC that says this is to stop UK retailers being put at a competitive disadvantage from VAT free sales, but that's tosh. AFAIK UK buyers have always had to pay VAT to Royal Mail, plus a handling fee.

Regards,

John P

Brooks, a British saddle manufacturer who make their saddles entirely in the UK cannot currently sell to UK clients because they forward their products to Italy for  onward distribution (including to the UK). Breathtakingly stupid.

Quote from: Alcazar on January 04, 2021, 05:57:13 PM
Maybe this explains everything (from the Mirror):
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/eu-firms-suspend-deliveries-to-the-uk-over-ludicrous-new-brexit-tax-rules/ar-BB1csF0t?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/eu-firms-suspend-deliveries-to-the-uk-over-ludicrous-new-brexit-tax-rules/ar-BB1csF0t?ocid=msedgntp)

Peter

The UK is the dry run for the same setup being introduced within and across the EU from July onwards.

https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/new-ecommerce-eu-vat-rules-july-2021.html (https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/new-ecommerce-eu-vat-rules-july-2021.html)

We'll see.

https://www.artitecshop.com/en/blogs/nieuws/tripping-over-red-tape/ (https://www.artitecshop.com/en/blogs/nieuws/tripping-over-red-tape/)

QuoteDue to the uncertainty surrounding Brexit and the sudden closure of the borders we see no other option as to pause our webshop orders to the UK from 21 December 2020. We have disabled the UK as a destination until we are able to comply with the new rules. Click for more information.

The main reason is the new UK VAT regime. Businesses selling goods to be imported into the UK with a value not exceeding £135 will be required to charge and collect any VAT due at the time of sale. Businesses selling goods to be imported into the UK will therefor be required to register for VAT in the UK.

Further reading: EU firms refuse UK deliveries over Brexit tax changes.

Backstory: "The huge change in the collection of VAT was included in a 100-page bill that mainly focused on arrangements implementing the Northern Ireland protocol for business within the UK.

It was overlooked by MPs and peers who had very little time to scrutinise the bill and were assured in an explanatory memorandum from Jesse Norman, Financial Secretary to the Treasury, that the changes would have little impact on business."

We are ever so sorry. At this moment we don't know when we can ship to you directly.

Our b2b supply chain has not been broken it seems. To order our products from within the UK we kindly ask you to contact John Ayrey Die Casts or A&H Models.

As I said earlier, this HMRC policy should be on death row. Normally, this sort of policy would be killed stone dead by ministers as soon as it was proposed.

This is so confusing. I thought Boris had agreed a trade deal with the EU. That suggested to me that if I purchase model trains from the EU I wouldn't have to pay more than the sticker price and the postage. Am I right in thinking that now I'd have to pay the country of origin's VAT plus UK VAT?

Quote from: Flange Squeal on January 05, 2021, 02:49:02 PM
This is so confusing. I thought Boris had agreed a trade deal with the EU. That suggested to me that if I purchase model trains from the EU I wouldn't have to pay more than the sticker price and the postage. Am I right in thinking that now I'd have to pay the country of origin's VAT plus UK VAT?

Your original understanding was correct, I believe, but UK government is encouraging EU retailers to register to collect the UK VAT at the point of sale, and then remit that VAT to the UK HMRC. To do this effectively the seller would need to sell at the pre-tax price plus UK VAT, plus a possible admin charge for the paperwork. If done correctly there should be no further charges when the goods arrive in the UK. The risk is that the the EU retailer will not deduct his country's VAT, will declare the base price plus VAT plus shipping etc. as the value on the CN22 form, and HMRC through Royal Mail/Parcelforce/other carrier will seek to collect UK VAT on the CN22 declared value when the goods land in the UK. The carrier will also charge for their admin. It another thing to watch out for when buying outside the UK.

This is my understanding, based on what I have read.

The EU are setting up a central VAT registry, so that people within the EU pay the rate of VAT for the purchaser's member state, not that of the seller. That prevents member states undercutting each other on VAT. There remains only one body for EU traders to register, an EU-based one rather than that of the member state. All very sensible, no extra red tape for retailers other than a one-off re-registration.

The UK have set up a parallel registry for the UK only. To cuts the ins and outs of it down, the idea was that instead of the customer paying a roughly £8 handling charge for any low value imports, the cost would be shifted on to Johnny Foreigner by making them register for UK VAT. The expectation was that they would do this because the UK is the most important country in the world. However, it turns out we aren't, so they aren't bothering.

The solution is to abandon this stupid system and put up with the old system which is a result of our imbecilic decision to leave the EEA as well as the EU. This means that importing from the EU would only remain viable for large orders but better than nothing. At least until the grown-ups take charge again and we go back to a sensible trading arrangement.

Thanks Mike and Paul, that does seem to be the situation in a couple of nutshells. I too, probably like all the other 'average Joe's' in the UK, thought the trade deal mean no real change. But then I forgot that 'our lot' had a whole year to work out how to get it wrong. :doh:

Thankfully at the moment I have nothing I need to buy (other than a long Wishlist that is under negotiation with the Chief Accountant ;) ), so I'll sit back and wait for the dust to settle and see where the best deals are to be had, here or over the Channel.

Just about the only way to get back to a system similar to before is to rejoin the EEA, which means accepting freedom of movement. An alternative might be a Turkish-style customs union, but I am not sure of the ins and outs of that.

Personally, I have no problem with freedom of movement, but most people do. They have to decide what is more important. To have freedom is to have freedom to choose, not freedom to have what you want with no strings attached.

Quote from: Flange Squeal on January 05, 2021, 02:49:02 PM
This is so confusing. I thought Boris had agreed a trade deal with the EU.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh, bless.

RT

Well at least I made someone laugh 😃

Taken from one of my posts in 'Ebay Madness' thread -

..... when I order anything from the UK now, I am liable to 21% VAT when it gets to Ireland and if the UK seller does not deduct the UK 20% VAT, (which one UK seller did not do when I placed an order the other day), I am paying that in the original cost price, so two lots of VAT!.....


the seller concerned is registered for VAT, (his number was on his invoice), but the packet arrived today and I was not charged Irish VAT nor duty, so the item(s) have actually cost me the same as they did prior to 31st December.  :confused2:

Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:

At the moment! :uneasy:

I've yet to come across a UK retailer in our hobby that refuses to deduct VAT on a non-EU order. Which is more than can be said for some high-street names.

Quote from: dannyboy on January 07, 2021, 04:02:20 PM
Taken from one of my posts in 'Ebay Madness' thread -

..... when I order anything from the UK now, I am liable to 21% VAT when it gets to Ireland and if the UK seller does not deduct the UK 20% VAT, (which one UK seller did not do when I placed an order the other day), I am paying that in the original cost price, so two lots of VAT!.....


the seller concerned is registered for VAT, (his number was on his invoice), but the packet arrived today and I was not charged Irish VAT nor duty, so the item(s) have actually cost me the same as they did prior to 31st December.  :confused2:

At least in the UK, I think packages sometimes get through the system unscathed. They don't have a limitless capacity even before the current upheaval. Perhaps the situation is the same in the Republic of Ireland?

Quote from: Paul J on January 07, 2021, 09:59:05 PM

Quote from: dannyboy on January 07, 2021, 04:02:20 PM
Taken from one of my posts in 'Ebay Madness' thread -

..... when I order anything from the UK now, I am liable to 21% VAT when it gets to Ireland and if the UK seller does not deduct the UK 20% VAT, (which one UK seller did not do when I placed an order the other day), I am paying that in the original cost price, so two lots of VAT!.....


the seller concerned is registered for VAT, (his number was on his invoice), but the packet arrived today and I was not charged Irish VAT nor duty, so the item(s) have actually cost me the same as they did prior to 31st December.  :confused2:

At least in the UK, I think packages sometimes get through the system unscathed. They don't have a limitless capacity even before the current upheaval. Perhaps the situation is the same in the Republic of Ireland?

Which is why HMRC are trying to get the overseas retailers to register for UK VAT and collect it on their behalf BEFORE the package is sent to the UK - hence the reason why overseas retailers are refusing to send packages to the UK now........they cannot be arsed with the agro!

Quote from: carlmt on January 07, 2021, 10:03:46 PM

Quote from: Paul J on January 07, 2021, 09:59:05 PM

Quote from: dannyboy on January 07, 2021, 04:02:20 PM
Taken from one of my posts in 'Ebay Madness' thread -

..... when I order anything from the UK now, I am liable to 21% VAT when it gets to Ireland and if the UK seller does not deduct the UK 20% VAT, (which one UK seller did not do when I placed an order the other day), I am paying that in the original cost price, so two lots of VAT!.....


the seller concerned is registered for VAT, (his number was on his invoice), but the packet arrived today and I was not charged Irish VAT nor duty, so the item(s) have actually cost me the same as they did prior to 31st December.  :confused2:

At least in the UK, I think packages sometimes get through the system unscathed. They don't have a limitless capacity even before the current upheaval. Perhaps the situation is the same in the Republic of Ireland?

Which is why HMRC are trying to get the overseas retailers to register for UK VAT and collect it on their behalf BEFORE the package is sent to the UK - hence the reason why overseas retailers are refusing to send packages to the UK now........they cannot be arsed with the agro!

Agreed. Which makes the removal of the below £15 VAT exemption even more bizarre!

Quote from: Paul J on January 07, 2021, 09:59:05 PM

At least in the UK, I think packages sometimes get through the system unscathed. They don't have a limitless capacity even before the current upheaval. Perhaps the situation is the same in the Republic of Ireland?

Packages can get through "unscathed". I have in the past had two orders from Japan that I knew should attract the attention of the customs people - one got through, one didn't. Unfortunately, it was the more expensive one that did not get through - and that cost me about €80 in duty etc.!  :(. That is why, in general, I ordered anything of any value from the EU - as I said earlier, I might have to put my buying on hold, (temporarily  ;)).

Quote from: dannyboy on January 07, 2021, 10:15:05 PM
Packages can get through "unscathed". I have in the past had two orders from Japan that I knew should attract the attention of the customs people - one got through, one didn't. Unfortunately, it was the more expensive one that did not get through - and that cost me about €80 in duty etc.!  :(. That is why, in general, I ordered anything of any value from the EU - as I said earlier, I might have to put my buying on hold, (temporarily  ;)).

It may be that the packages are triaged to process those with the largest revenue. Or it could be an unlucky coincidence!

I have a non-model railway item arriving from China. It was an Ebay purchase on 1 January 2021 and VAT was charged and paid when the order was placed. The package arrived in the UK on 7 January, and is reported in the Royal Mail network as of 4.42am this morning. If this works as intended I should avoid the RM customs handling fee.

If that becomes the new norm I could cope with that - I find the uncertainty frustrating, and actually the handling fee is usually disproportionate for the cost of item I'm buying.

Quote from: Jim Easterbrook on December 08, 2020, 10:02:18 PM
I wonder if going via Northern Ireland will make life easier?

No it isn't. I placed an order on Wednesday with Peco and it hasn't left their shop yet. They said they cant get their head around the paperwork because they havent sent anything to N.Ireland yet so god knows when it will arrive.

The Tories really have f**ked everything up!

No, the electorate have. Let's not get political.

It'll have to settle down, this doesn't seem sustainable.

Aren't Devon and Northern Ireland both in the United Kingdom anymore?

Quote from: Flange Squeal on January 08, 2021, 12:15:13 PM
Aren't Devon and Northern Ireland both in the United Kingdom anymore?

Good question

The public voted to leave the EU. At the time of the referendum, the leave campaign/s was/were ambiguous (I am being polite) on this issue.

Leaving the EEA was the government's decision based on a political judgement that the public wanted to reduce EU immigration. The 2019 election outcome suggested that their political judgement was correct. We are yet to see what will be the correct political judgement at the next election. It may be that the public didn't understand the ins and outs of international trade and may not like the outcome.

All of this is politics, and the solution will be political. But not really a topic for this forum perhaps.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on January 08, 2021, 08:53:25 AM
I have a non-model railway item arriving from China. It was an Ebay purchase on 1 January 2021 and VAT was charged and paid when the order was placed. The package arrived in the UK on 7 January, and is reported in the Royal Mail network as of 4.42am this morning. If this works as intended I should avoid the RM customs handling fee.

I always try to make sure my orders of wargames stuff from china are less than £15, then no VAT and no robbing mail admin fee.

this often means multiple orders, but as they are post free no problem there, and touch wood I've only come unstuck once, when I put in two orders, but the same day.

then someone in china was'efficient, combined the two into one parcel, and put the total value on the customs form  :'(

so instead of the parcel I got a card from RM, did not so much worry about the VAT, £2.45, as even with that the items were good value, it was the £8 RM fee for 'admin' which got my goat, especially as I had to do the admin for them on line  :veryangry:

so basically, the charged me £8 to scribble a card and drop it in my post box, and delay my parcel.

I am sure I remeber there being a system years ago where HMC notified you, you paid them, and no admin fee.

instead of that, my parcel sat a mile away from me for two extra days and I was charged for the privilage  :censored:

Hasn't the £15 low value consignment relief limit now been removed? It was based on an EU Council Directive 2009/132/EC which no longer applies in the UK.

looks like you are right.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-in-the-uk-using-online-marketplaces#goods-that-are-outside-of-the-uk-at-the-point-of-sale (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-in-the-uk-using-online-marketplaces#goods-that-are-outside-of-the-uk-at-the-point-of-sale)

Quote from: woodbury22uk on January 08, 2021, 12:59:49 PM
Hasn't the £15 low value consignment relief limit now been removed? It was based on an EU Council Directive 2009/132/EC which no longer applies in the UK.

So yet another benefit of being in the EU that we have lost........

Wonderful  :claphappy: :claphappy: :thumbsdown: :censored:

Quote from: carlmt on January 08, 2021, 01:37:31 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on January 08, 2021, 12:59:49 PM
Hasn't the £15 low value consignment relief limit now been removed? It was based on an EU Council Directive 2009/132/EC which no longer applies in the UK.

So yet another benefit of being in the EU that we have lost........

Wonderful  :claphappy: :claphappy: :thumbsdown: :censored:

The government could have chosen to continue it if they wished.

on the bright side, .....

I can tell SWMBO that the number of parcels that arrived last year was in fact forward planning for just such a change in the rules ...

rather than just me buying too many models   :angel:

Quote from: class37025 on January 08, 2021, 02:23:20 PM
on the bright side, .....

I can tell SWMBO that the number of parcels that arrived last year was in fact forward planning for just such a change in the rules ...

rather than just me buying too many models   :angel:

Er ... um...  doesn't that now mean you have shot yourself in the foot for any defence for buying this year? :hmmm:

Sounds like a right royal lack of forward planning to me. :D

ohhh  :poop:

Quote from: carlmt on January 08, 2021, 01:37:31 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on January 08, 2021, 12:59:49 PM
Hasn't the £15 low value consignment relief limit now been removed? It was based on an EU Council Directive 2009/132/EC which no longer applies in the UK.

So yet another benefit of being in the EU that we have lost........

Wonderful  :claphappy: :claphappy: :thumbsdown: :censored:

Only until April this year. The low value relief is being removed by the EU to stop certain sellers declaring a low value to get around these charges.

Northern Ireland is still in the EEA/EU for customs purposes, so goods from the rest of the UK now have paperwork to be dealt with.

Regards,

John P

Sort of related - the courier company DPD has suspended road deliveries from the UK to the EU until next Wednesday, due to problems with Customs paperwork.

"Parcel courier DPD UK has said it is pausing its road delivery services into Europe, including Ireland, until at least Wednesday.

The courier has become the latest company to warn that British Prime Minister Boris Johnson's divorce settlement with the European Union had led to more complex processes at the border." .....

"The company said in a statement: "The EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement resulted in more complex processes, and additional customs data requirements for parcels destined for Europe."

Apparently 20% of items have incorrect paperwork.

(Taken from RTE News website)

Peco phoned me this morning to say they are trying to get their heads around customs papers and hope to send my order out soon. They use DPD so it's going to be a while before I get my order.

I have had four high value items delivered from Germany and Holland in the last week by FedEx DPD and a carrier that used Parcelforce to deliver.  None were delayed.

Why

The customs forms on the packages asked all the necessary questions.  Once they created the correct forms everything else works.

Items even from big companies can easily pass customs if sent as individual items with the customs form correctly filled in avoiding the HMRC customs registration requirement.

I had a parcel containing two high value articles delivered today from Germany. It was despatched using DHL but arrived with Parcelforce. :hmmm:
It was only posted on Wednesday so no delays.
Why?
The value of the goods on the Customs form was total fantasy. :D
But I'm not complaining. :no:

That's not something I'd be boasting about online. No sensible seller would agree to understate the package value in that way - making a false customs declaration is illegal, so they risk being fined, and it would prejudice their insurance cover on the item. And the practice makes it more likely that properly declared packages are inspected and thereby delayed. 

Quote from: longbow on January 08, 2021, 09:42:28 PM
That's not something I'd be boasting about online. No sensible seller would agree to understate the package value in that way - making a false customs declaration is illegal, so they risk being fined, and it would prejudice their insurance cover on the item. And the practice makes it more likely that properly declared packages are inspected and thereby delayed. 

I might have sounded flippant but please don't imply that I was in cahoots with them.
For all I know the figure they quoted on the customs form might have made sense to them and could well have satisfied the requirements in Germany if not the UK. Like many of us they are possibly gaining experience and not deliberately making false statements. The goods had been paid for before 31/12/20 and it was only the delivery that was taking place after that date. Perhaps it was their way of trying to ensure that I was not subjected to UK VAT after already paying German MwSt?

Very interesting discussion, regarding eBay I for one will not be buying anymore items from the UK as the charges put on are extortionate compared to the cost of the item. For example I found an item I was interested in at a Buy it now price of £25, postage was a reasonable cost but eBay charges of £22 to include customs duty etc made it much too expensive when if in UK I would only be paying the £25 plus postage. I just don't understand why customs duty as I haven't paid any when buying from a dealer since January 1st.
Only thing I will be using eBay for in future will be books as these seem to be exempt from extra charges.

@Dancess (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=491)  Can you identify the breakdown of the charges from Ebay? Seems much more than just French VAT. Model railway items are not subject to import duty in most jurisdictions. If your item was subject to import duty, and it was not manufactured in the UK, then duty will have been paid once already when it arrived in the UK. However, the rules are that duty applies again when it moves from one tax jurisdiction to another. An intra-EU transaction would not attract duty, but from July, when the EU rules change, it will attract French VAT. There is a comprehensive article here specifically aimed at the model sector but also using examples for dutiable goods like clothes and electronics.

https://www.maronline.org.uk/the-impact-of-brexit-on-uk-model-collectors/ (https://www.maronline.org.uk/the-impact-of-brexit-on-uk-model-collectors/)

Costs from Germany - MB LIppe

they say "If you have a tax ID, then please let us know. We then will deduct the German value added tax from your bill."

they then charge german VAT on a purchase, and DHL shipping to UK is €9.90 ( below €100)

will i then be charged VAT on the full German price +excise duty ( exempt) + handling charge??

Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2021, 07:01:29 PM
Costs from Germany - MB LIppe

they say "If you have a tax ID, then please let us know. We then will deduct the German value added tax from your bill."

they then charge german VAT on a purchase, and DHL shipping to UK is €9.90 ( below €100)

will i then be charged VAT on the full German price +excise duty ( exempt) + handling charge??

UK VAT should be due on the full landed price including shipping and German VAT. But it seems Customs are a bit busy at the moment so some low value packages are being allowed through uncharged.

The Martin Lewis Money Saving Expert team have now produced a guide/article on this thorny subject.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/buying-online-from-europe-post-brexit/ (https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/buying-online-from-europe-post-brexit/)

Note that it is at pains to state that the page will be updated as more info comes to light, but reading it through this morning it is clear that what you might get charged can vary considerably depending on seller, value, and courier.

Caveat emptor indeed!

To answer my own question in the original post about buying from the UK for delivery to Ireland. If I order something from the UK, I should be able to buy it free of UK VAT now. Once it gets to Ireland, I am then liable to pay Irish VAT and if necessary, Customs Duty plus a collection fee. So, basically, buying from the UK now is the same as buying from the USA or Japan prior to Brexit. I have had two packets from the USA lately and got away with no import charges. Of the items bought from the UK, it is about 50/50 as to whether I have had to pay import charges, although if I use the 'An Post' drop off facility to save on postage, I will get lumbered with import charges, (think An Post and Customs are working together on this), so I have to work out whether the savings on postage outweighs the possibility of having to pay the import duties.

Just received a loco from Rails which was sent by Royal Mail with no extra charges. I did pay the UK VAT and postage was £8.50, customs form was filled in fully with the value stated as the price I paid. My previous delivery from one of the large retailers likewise had no extra charges and fully completed paperwork so maybe they know what is required.
However if I want to buy off eBay and the seller uses the Global Shipping Programme then I will get charged import duty in their extortionate fees even on low value items as I found out to my cost so now I will only buy from sellers who use Royal Mail.

If you buy through the GSP there shouldn't be any hidden charges, that's the point. It's not cheap, but it's 'certain'.

I've just been reading this thread which is a little confusing as some of the entries refer to imports into the UK.

I live in SW Crete and sadly my experience is not as happy as Danny's recent piece from France. I have had to pay Greek VAT and the carrier's 'desk driving' charges. Before Xmas I bought a number of items from Langleys in anticipation of Brexit which they efficiently prepared for timely dispatch but sadly the UK postal service, in anticipation of Brexit/Covid/work, was not accepting deliveries for the EU and it was finally dispatched in January. It therefore 'qualified' for Greek VAT etc despite my providing proof of €200 transfer from my Greek bank account. Greek VAT is 24% and the Greek Post Office charges €20 for their additional labour! That's cheap as DHL recently wanted to charge me €40 plus VAT, in addition to their charge for 'expedited delivery' sic, for 4 Metcalfe kits from Hattons. I told them to put it where the sun doesn't shine and Hattons helpfully accepted the return and reimbursed me.

This saddens me as I have in course of building my layout developed very happy relationships with, for example, Hattons, Kernow, Osbornes, TMC, CMC to name only a few, which sadly are no longer 'cost effective'. Whilst some items I can source within the EU, (although Greece is a bit of an ngauge desert), 1950's WR steam is a bit of an eccentric interest in the EU. So the above are more than anonymous websites, they are effectively my local model shops. When I asked Mike Broomfield, NGS, about local groups in Crete he replied that I was it!

I don't know if my circumstances are similar for other EU based members. Is it viable to use this forum or NGS to create a directory of EU based, British outline, ngauge suppliers? I've recently had very helpful service from Marks Models in Dublin who have a limited stock but who are happy to order. But it is also the little bits that are frustrating to source. For example I want some iron railings of the sort that were familiar around UK parks and municipal buildings or, in my case, the west end of Penzance Station. Langley have them at a reasonable price, less than a fiver, but do I want to pay an additional €15 to some 'desk jockey' in Athens to own them now I'm no longer an EU citizen? Our political leaders can compose endless agreements but in the final analysis much of it becomes feeding fodder for the 'job's worths' who hold the real power.

Will it help if EU based respondents attach the flag of their country of residence, or even the EU flag if that doesn't cause offence.

Can I look forward to an Irish, German, French model shop advertising in the NGS journal?

Welcome to the forum @Doddy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6911)
When I started this thread, it was with the express intention of asking about VAT and Customs duty on exports from the UK into the EU - specifically Ireland and it does seem to have gone off track a bit. I have found that a lot of UK exporters to the EU are now deducting UK VAT. On arriving in Ireland, Irish VAT should be added, now 23%, plus Customs duty if the value, (decided by Customs, not what I paid for an item  >:(), is over €22, (I think - until June), plus a 'collection fee' imposed by the Irish postal service, although I have never been charged more than €3.50. (I have to admit that a couple of orders have arrived without being 'intercepted'). What is annoying me regarding UK exports to the EU is the postal charges that some companies impose - if indeed they will post to the EU.
To answer one of your queries, a lot of respondents do show their country, further down the left hand column.

Hi Dannyboy, thanks for the welcome.

I'm not sure about deferring UK VAT as I have avoided ordering anything from the UK since Bidet but postal charges seem to vary enormously from shop to shop. Hattons had mentioned it but I thought they were suggesting that they had to make discreet arrangements with each country and the amount of business with Greece didn't merit it. I don't know if this is Brexit related but the post seems to have become very slow since the end of 2020 and your point about inconsistency is relevant. I've received a copy of the NGS Journal, two copies of the RM and a copy of David Maidment's Kings book dispatched since Bidet which arrived without additional charge although, I think, VAT is chargeable on books here. I guess there might be further variations after June.

I had seen that residency was noted on the left but, as you commented, the thread had gone off track and it was a bit tedious scrolling through to clarify who was referring to experience of goods received from the UK. Hopefully we can keep to your intended thread. I think Ireland is important in this as not only does the settlement create particular issues for the north and as a consequence all of Ireland but also Ireland is becoming an important transit route for goods from the UK to Europe and the shared history might also provide the expertise to develop the (ngauge) model railway business.

Just to resurrect this topic with a bizzare example.

Yesterday the Post lady phoned me (I had an Amazon Italia ordrer coming) to tell me she had my order plus, another package from the UK.

I got an email from KR models a few weeks ago to tell me a package was on its way....  this is weird as I havent bought anything from them, I did express an interest in the N Scale GT3 but that was it so just thought it was a email error.

Lo and behold the post lady produces a large box which I see is from from KR models and says that will be Euro 67 please.  Needless to say a quick Non Grazie was delivered.  So said large model is on its way back to the UK.  I did email KR models but no response, I haven't paid for this and could have got myself a OO bargain for E67.   The lesson that I have now learned is that I will no longer be able to order anything from the UK with stupid added charges like that.  It also now puts my current order of a 66xx from Revolution and the Parcels Railcar in doubt. 

It really will be cheaper to fly over and buy direct !!

Mr Grumpy !! :veryangry:

Quote from: Jerry Howlett on April 17, 2021, 04:20:54 PM

It really will be cheaper to fly over and buy direct !!

I got myself registered for 'the vaccination' on Friday, so hopefully I will be getting my first jab in a week or two. What I am hoping for is that by September/October time, things will have got a lot better travel wise and I will be allowed 'back home' and I can have a shopping spree - sorry, I meant visit my brother and sister! ;). As you say Jerry, it will be cheaper to fly over and buy stuff than have it posted from the U.K., (providing of course, I don't get stopped by Customs coming back  :worried:). Nice to hear from you again. :thumbsup:

For what it may be worth (and you may already know this), DM Toys (https://www.dm-toys.de/en/) in Germany seem to stock a fair bit of UK outline stuff including Dapol and Farish; for those living in the EU, that may offer a cost effective alternative as DM Toys will already have dealt with any import issues.

Quote from: GScaleBruce on April 17, 2021, 05:49:25 PM
For what it may be worth (and you may already know this), DM Toys (https://www.dm-toys.de/en/) in Germany seem to stock a fair bit of UK outline stuff including Dapol and Farish; for those living in the EU, that may offer a cost effective alternative as DM Toys will already have dealt with any import issues.

I'm also using ModelBahnShop Lippe (https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com) also in Germany and who also appear to have some stock of UK bits like Peco track etc. I do wonder if it's what they all got in stock pre national foot shooting as a lot of their usual listed stuff is out of stock (then again lots of Peco bits are out of stock everywhere).

Quote from: Jerry Howlett on April 17, 2021, 04:20:54 PM

It really will be cheaper to fly over and buy direct !!

Would it be possible for someone here to buy it for you and send it over with a (belated?!) birthday card enclosed?

Best wishes.

John

Quote from: Train Waiting on April 17, 2021, 06:33:22 PM

Quote from: Jerry Howlett on April 17, 2021, 04:20:54 PM

It really will be cheaper to fly over and buy direct !!

Would it be possible for someone here to buy it for you and send it over with a (belated?!) birthday card enclosed?

Best wishes.

John

Gifts are taxed as well, now,

Quote from: Jerry Howlett on April 17, 2021, 04:20:54 PM
I will no longer be able to order anything from the UK with stupid added charges like that. 

Why is it a 'stupid added charge', it could have just been Italian VAT added to the price of a sounded fitted GT3.
GT3 295 UKP including VAT, 245 ex UK VAT, then add Italian VAT at 25%, that's around 61 UKP or 70 Euro's.

Regards,

John P

I've avoided buying anything from abroad since January the 1st,  partly to allow brexit chaos to reduce , partly to allow this new system to sort itself out.

However I need a new sheave for the mast of my sailing boat. The mast is long since obsolete, and the company that now owns the rights don't make a replacement. After much searching online the only supplier, that had a sheave the right size, I could find is in Hong Kong.
The sheave is a huge £3, but a new mast is £1200ish, so even if there high customs duties, I have no choice.
I'll let you all know what happens when it arrives...

I note this new system of the seller  applying the country of destinations taxes  to imports is due to start to imports to the EU from June...

Quote from: Train Waiting on April 17, 2021, 06:33:22 PM

Quote from: Jerry Howlett on April 17, 2021, 04:20:54 PM

It really will be cheaper to fly over and buy direct !!

I will now just use my good old "House of @Hailstone (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1193) for all future purchases .   Good excuse to pop over to the UK and take in a few Ales.

Jerry

Would it be possible for someone here to buy it for you and send it over with a (belated?!) birthday card enclosed?

Best wishes.

John

I bought my latest latest vans and locos from Schweikhardt in Germany - www.modelleisenbahn.com (http://www.modelleisenbahn.com). They have a large selection of secondhand Farish diesels, a couple of white metal kits and job lots of goods wagons and coaches (unbekannte Hersteller) as well as a selection of British railway books, many now out of print.

Peter

@Alcazar (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9432)  I remember buying online from ETS way back in 2000, I think probably my first overseas purchase was from them.  It was a Bemo Regioshuttle.

In 2003 when I took my layout to the Stuttgart N convention for the first time, my team and i went on an adventure and took a bus out to their shop in Waiblingen.  I bought an Arnold ICE 3 set. 

I still have both the Regioshuttle and the ICE 3, but funnily enough both suffered mechanism failures over the years and both are now running with Tomix powered chassis  :D

My latest purchase from Rails of Sheffield arrived a few days ago with €15 of customs duty on top of the usual price. I'm not sure who's reaping the much vaunted Brexit dividend, but it certainly ain't me!

Quote from: willike1958 on May 01, 2021, 07:34:03 PM
My latest purchase from Rails of Sheffield arrived a few days ago with €15 of customs duty on top of the usual price. I'm not sure who's reaping the much vaunted Brexit dividend, but it certainly ain't me!

Did Rails deduct UK VAT?

Regards,

John P

QuoteDid Rails deduct UK VAT?

Yes, and delivery was by La Poste, without any added "handling charges". So I suppose I should count myself as lucky.

Quote from: willike1958 on May 01, 2021, 07:34:03 PM
with €15 of customs duty on top of the usual price.

Just to confirm, was the €15 customs duty, or French VAT? Rails have done what they should have done in deducting UK VAT, but then the French authorities, providing the value of the goods is at least the amount set by French authorities, will charge VAT as you are liable to pay French VAT. In Ireland, the amount set for VAT is, I think, €22. Anything under that, I, in theory when buying from the UK, get the UK VAT deducted, but there is no need to pay Irish VAT. Above that figure, I still save 21% UK VAT, but have to pay 23% Irish VAT.

UK VAT deducted, French VAT added + €15 customs duties

Was it an N Gauge model? Customs duty on Model Trains is 0% (WTO)

Regards,

John P

Low value goods from Aliexpress & Japan ( less than £15) seem to get through unscathed

QuoteWas it an N Gauge model? Customs duty on Model Trains is 0% (WTO)

My understanding is that products fabricated outside the UK when re-exported, as in this case, fall foul of the "rules of origin" requirements and so are subject to customs duties, even if the products are otherwise zero rated. Moreover, from what I've gleaned from the internet, it appears that the export value of the product includes transport costs, which means that even though I paid slightly less than the £135 duty threshold for the loco, P&P costs take me into customs duty territory. Quelle pagaille, as we (politely) say here in France...

Quote from: Railwaygun on May 02, 2021, 01:19:21 AM
Low value goods from Aliexpress & Japan ( less than £15) seem to get through unscathed

AliExpress seem to be collecting UK VAT on some things, not sure if they've centralised it like eBay. They should be charging it, and nothing due on arrival. The £15 limit for exemptions has been removed, but it may also not be worth the admin right now given the abject chaos it seems to be causing.

I have had a slightly different issue. I purchased a train set from Italy in January (private ebay sale). Despite two attempts at delivery both carriers returned the item to the seller with differing excuses - I think they didn't want the wait at Dover, the seller refunded my money and carriage so although not out of pocket I missed out

I received a parcel from Sheffield yesterday and had to pay German VAT, which is what I expected since Rails deducted British VAT. The only annoying thing is the Deutsche Post handling charge of 6€.

Hattons BTW have opted for another way. They are VAT registered in Germany and paid the tax here. Unfortunately Deutsche Post can't deal with that. They always charge the buyer, no matter whether the seller has already paid VAT, which is rather annoying :thumbsdown:
Luckily, Hatton's reimbursed me (although not for the handling charge). :thumbsup:

Best,
Michael

Just managed to sort the import documentation for my Kato class 800 from Train Trax, who helpfully deducted the UK VAT from the order.

Cost of VAT, Import duty (yes there was a small bit) and fees, €85 on a £162 order. Ouch

When I was doing the forms (which are a major pain in themselves) it seems there's a possibly leeway on items under €150, so it will be interesting to see what all my pre-orders end up costing me over the next year or so.

Quote from: zwilnik on June 08, 2021, 11:51:09 AM
Cost of VAT, Import duty (yes there was a small bit) and fees, €85 on a £162 order. Ouch

That's really steep. I paid 44€ for a 190 GBP order... And I really don't understand why you had to pay import duty...

Quote from: mika on June 08, 2021, 11:56:20 AM

Quote from: zwilnik on June 08, 2021, 11:51:09 AM
Cost of VAT, Import duty (yes there was a small bit) and fees, €85 on a £162 order. Ouch

That's really steep. I paid 44€ for a 190 GBP order... And I really don't understand why you had to pay import duty...

For some reason they decided it was industrial products, so inccured €9.61 in duty. Despite me declaring it as a model train.

The actual tax in total was €54.58 so it was about €30 as fees. And I had to do all the paperwork too.

Why buy from the UK for shipping to the Continent?! I know that Modellbahn-Kramm (https://www.modellbahn-kramm.com/) definitely offer both GWR and LNER and am fairly sure DM-Toys (https://www.dm-toys.de/en/) do too.

If I do get caught for duty etc on orders from the UK, it usually costs me about 30/35% of my initial cost price.

Quote from: RailGooner on June 08, 2021, 12:36:48 PM
Why buy from the UK for shipping to the Continent?! I know that Modellbahn-Kramm (https://www.modellbahn-kramm.com/) definitely offer both GWR and LNER and am fairly sure DM-Toys (https://www.dm-toys.de/en/) do too.

I'd pre-ordered from TrainTrax before finding that out :)

Hi, I haven't been an active participant in this discussion for a couple of months because summer has hit SW Crete (apologies, no wind up intended, hehe) and I've been focussed on life support for roses and other objects of affection.

But I have been following the thread and it appears that things are possibly improving but remaining inconsistent across the EU. I've had a non rolling stock order from DM who did impress. Their prices for UK manufactured stuff was not alarming, their service was good and they have really cute rail track sticky tape on their packaging- I haven't checked the sleeper spacing! I also receive their email stock updates and my impression is that their UK range is increasing. An issue for EU stockists must be what UK outline models to stock and as an experiment I shall see if I can pre-order items that I know are due for release later in the year. That seems to be a way of assisting stockists purchasing strategies. DM have several Dapol Halls on their website at prices that are competitive at today's exchange rates and without the rip off of unpredictable admin charges. Are countries really adding Import Charges or is that a piece of mis translation. For example Greek utilities and banks have sometimes added 'tax' when in fact they mean 'admin fees'.

Quote from: Doddy on June 08, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
Hi, I haven't been an active participant in this discussion for a couple of months because summer has hit SW Crete (apologies, no wind up intended, hehe) and I've been focussed on life support for roses and other objects of affection.

But I have been following the thread and it appears that things are possibly improving but remaining inconsistent across the EU. I've had a non rolling stock order from DM who did impress. Their prices for UK manufactured stuff was not alarming, their service was good and they have really cute rail track sticky tape on their packaging- I haven't checked the sleeper spacing! I also receive their email stock updates and my impression is that their UK range is increasing. An issue for EU stockists must be what UK outline models to stock and as an experiment I shall see if I can pre-order items that I know are due for release later in the year. That seems to be a way of assisting stockists purchasing strategies. DM have several Dapol Halls on their website at prices that are competitive at today's exchange rates and without the rip off of unpredictable admin charges. Are countries really adding Import Charges or is that a piece of mis translation. For example Greek utilities and banks have sometimes added 'tax' when in fact they mean 'admin fees'.

Yeah, in my case there was the expected IVA (VAT) at 21% but also "Derechos de aduana sobre productos industriales" which is "Customs duties on industrial products" at around 4%. I suspect this wasn't supposed to be added for model trains (despite it being properly declared etc.) but given it's 'only' about €10 and disputing it could end up with my model going back to the UK or being tied up for months, so I'm not going to argue it.

I think that the customs code used most is this:-

95 03 00 30  Electric trains, incl. tracks, signals, and other accessories therefor; reduced-size "scale" model assembly kits;

This is generally 0% on WTO, but the EU may be loading it for country of origin outside the EU. Other WTO "toy" categories come in at 4.7%

Save the planet :angel: Don't quote unnecessarily.

I think you've exactly described the difficulty because we, as modellers, have ordered something quite specific and because in the EU area we are a very small number, we probably don't have a choice so the couriers and customs have us over a barrel. I did say 'No, send it back' to one item but only because I knew Marks Models had it in stock and it arrived very quickly and faster than an argument with the desk jockeys in customs.

Further to my 'cunning plan' in an earlier email, I've discovered DM don't do pre-orders so, if Mr DM is reading this, I want to buy a Dapol 9F to be re-released later this year and if he asks I'll give him my card number via his registered customers website. Perhaps others, and stockists, want to indicate an interest also.

I've been alerted to further replies whilst typing. One refers to WTO, but surely the issue is that customs duties and levels shouldn't come into this since the agreement negotiated said it was tariff free. This debate should be about VAT charges and the greed of some couriers in administering them.

As @Only Me (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328) I strictly keep below €135 and as stated earlier in this thread haven't had any extra charges. Had to pass on a pair of TEE coaches a few months back at €195 - the seller declined my request to invoice and ship each coach seperately.

Quote from: Doddy on June 08, 2021, 05:02:39 PM
I've been alerted to further replies whilst typing. One refers to WTO, but surely the issue is that customs duties and levels shouldn't come into this since the agreement negotiated said it was tariff free. This debate should be about VAT charges and the greed of some couriers in administering them.

Tariff free is shorthand for "tariff free for goods that qualify". The criteria for qualification include country of origin.....so buying even part Chinese-made goods from the UK does not automatically qualify for tariff free status.

Light reading but Paragraph 1.1 sums it up:-

"To export tariff-free under the TCA, goods must meet the UK-EU preferential rules of origin. This means that there must be a qualifying level of processing in the country of export to access zero tariffs. "

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu/introduction-to-rules-of-origin-and-claiming-preferential-tariffs-duties (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu/introduction-to-rules-of-origin-and-claiming-preferential-tariffs-duties)

I had an order from Digikeijs a couple of weeks ago, they removed Dutch VAT, and as it was under £135 I didn't incur anything here either. Win/win. I'm sure the UK stockists are annoyed by that sort of practice though (as would HMRC be I suspect), as it meant hugely undercutting them. Delivery was quick by DHL.

Quote from: Only Me on June 08, 2021, 05:18:40 PM
Not strictly train related but I buy beer kegs from Bier and Wein in Germany... in order to avoid taxes and import charges the entire value excluding courier costs must be under €135 and must pay in euros not gbp... This was advised to me through the German company.  That way I just pay German vat at source in euro..

As described, the German company are doing it wrongly.   If the goods are going to the UK, they don't have EU (German) VAT applied. 
If below the £135 limit, the selling company is supposed to register with the UK authorities to collect UK VAT (and return it to the UK government), so the buyer should be paying UK VAT to the German company on the order. 
Further, the whole consignment is subject to UK duty on alcohol, payable at the border.  (Unless its going from an EU country to Northern Ireland, then different rules apply).

Quote from: njee20 on June 09, 2021, 04:30:31 PM
I had an order from Digikeijs a couple of weeks ago, they removed Dutch VAT, and as it was under £135 I didn't incur anything here either. Win/win. I'm sure the UK stockists are annoyed by that sort of practice though (as would HMRC be I suspect), as it meant hugely undercutting them. Delivery was quick by DHL.

Again, Digikeijs are doing it wrongly. 

In both cases, I don't blame the EU companies for not bothering to register for and pay taxes to a third country.   
But, it does mean that the person importing stuff might then find themselves picking up the tax and collection charges (and duty on alcohol) if the item is spotted as it comes in through UK customs. 



- Nigel

Yep, I know, hence my comment that I imagine HMRC would be grumpy if they found out. I suspect it'll take a long time for this sort of thing to settle down, as I can't see a mechanism for HMRC to start intercepting parcels under £135 to verify correct charging of VAT.

Just got a bill for £49 for import vat and UPs handling charge on a order from DM toys NICE , had to pay vat twice as DM TOYS haven't take off the german 19%tax so have paid that  , also was charged 20% on 190EUROS NOT £163 GBP as it should be. tried speaking to CUSTOMS AND UPS what a waste of time so have just paid it, Looks like that was my last order from  DM toys , will have to try other suppliers from now on  , shame as the do some really nice bits and detailing stuff , but i am not prepared to pay double VAT taxes on orders from them , NOT A HAPPY BUNNY

Hi Nobby, sadly like most couriers, UPS are virtually out of communication. I've rather lost track of what was agreed six months ago but was there not to be a sort of grace period of six months for UK residents to adjust before experiencing the full benefits of Brexit or was that only the case in NI or for Cumberland sausages? I read the piece suggested by Woodbury22UK on the WTO which was both informative and confusing. I can see how country of origin might apply in the case of a container load of goods from Taiwan but how does it apply to the small parcels we deal with. At the end of last year, Kernow sent me a new GF, 8F and the customs declaration label had a description that was accurate, honest but bland. How would Eftikis in the Athens customs shed know that an English sounding Graham Farrish British outline steam loco had 90% of it's origins in the PRC and had "only just got off the boat"! Anyway, summers here, it's over 30° everyday, cafes are busy with tourists so I'm off to the railway room to finish Penzance Station in the cool, bon voyage.

Quote from: nobby on June 27, 2021, 01:46:34 AM
Just got a bill for £49 for import vat and UPs handling charge on a order from DM toys NICE , had to pay vat twice as DM TOYS haven't take off the german 19%tax so have paid that  , also was charged 20% on 190EUROS NOT £163 GBP as it should be. tried speaking to CUSTOMS AND UPS what a waste of time so have just paid it, Looks like that was my last order from  DM toys , will have to try other suppliers from now on  , shame as the do some really nice bits and detailing stuff , but i am not prepared to pay double VAT taxes on orders from them , NOT A HAPPY BUNNY

Surely 20% of €190 is the same as £163...? This is correct though, DM Toys have repeatedly said they won't be removing the VAT, and it's nothing to do with UPS, who are doing things correctly. It's a shame, but I also won't ever order anything from DM Toys again. It'll be interesting to see what he does when the rules for intra-EU sales change, and he's supposed to charge VAT at the rate of the country of delivery.

Quote from: nobby on June 27, 2021, 01:46:34 AM
Just got a bill for £49 for import vat and UPs handling charge on a order from DM toys

Just out of interest how and when did you receive the bill? Was it at the time of order delivery or sometime later? 

I've still not had anything from UPS demanding VAT and handling on over £460 of drum kit from a German shop that arrived over 3 weeks ago. This was free of German VAT so I fully expect there should be something to pay.

Quote from: njee20 on June 27, 2021, 09:43:57 AM
It'll be interesting to see what he does when the rules for intra-EU sales change, and he's supposed to charge VAT at the rate of the country of delivery.

Based on current practice, they'll probably just charge everyone the highest rate of any country that it applies to.

Hi all

I regards to the 20 % import vat.  Yes and no. Ie i had to pay 20 % on 190 euros as if it was £190 , not 190 euros with exchange rate should be £163. Then 20 %  so it would have been around £32. Not £37.   Just another cheeky way of getting a few quid. Other shops i have brought from in germany have taken off the german vat. If dm toys had done so then the cost would have been 36 euros less so then its not so bad. This is just bad and the fact theres not much you can do about it is the most annoying.

Quote from: nobby on June 27, 2021, 01:46:05 PM
Hi all

I regards to the 20 % import vat.  Yes and no. Ie i had to pay 20 % on 190 euros as if it was £190 , not 190 euros with exchange rate should be £163. Then 20 %  so it would have been around £32. Not £37.   Just another cheeky way of getting a few quid. Other shops i have brought from in germany have taken off the german vat. If dm toys had done so then the cost would have been 36 euros less so then its not so bad. This is just bad and the fact theres not much you can do about it is the most annoying.

Once you get the documentation which shows it should be GBP163 not GBP190, then challenge HMRC and add on your GBP11 query handling charge to the claim.

I seem to recall that DMToys said the German VAT charge value was in lieu of an export documentation charge.

Quote from: nobby on June 27, 2021, 01:46:05 PM
Hi all

I regards to the 20 % import vat.  Yes and no. Ie i had to pay 20 % on 190 euros as if it was £190 , not 190 euros with exchange rate should be £163. Then 20 %  so it would have been around £32. Not £37.   Just another cheeky way of getting a few quid. Other shops i have brought from in germany have taken off the german vat. If dm toys had done so then the cost would have been 36 euros less so then its not so bad. This is just bad and the fact theres not much you can do about it is the most annoying.

That's not "a cheeky way of getting a few quid", that's an error. They can't convert it to Yen, then put a pound sign at the front and charge you 20% of that. If you've paid VAT on £190, and your order was €190 then they've got it wrong.

I joined this thread back in March when I had to pay double VAT on an order from Langley's who were unable to dispatch before January 1st but said they were unable to reimburse the UK VAT I had paid them in December which was 'trousered' by either them or HMRC! As a result of this and another VAT event with a Hattons order, I haven't ordered anything from a UK supplier this year. Nobby's story brings to mind a recent ironic event because I did want some railings of the sort supplied by Langley but I was damned if I was going to order them from him! So I've sourced them successfully and with delightful service from an EU supplier who I hate to say is Daniel at DM Toys!

And this is the sad lesson of these events because Daniel at DM toys, the guy at Langley's, Greg at Kernow, Mike at Osborns etc are all enthusiasts first and shop keepers second which is why we like to shop with them and Brexit, VAT etc has driven a knife through these happy and productive relationships. The saddest thing I've seen this week is Gaugemaster's ad on the back of the latest RM telling us we can get all their stuff from Amazon uk. Deep joy although I'm sure Mr Amazon knows far more than any one else on this planet about international taxation regimes, he's probably read a book on customer centric organisation but he knows F all about the Great Western Railway, the Dawlish Sea Wall or CAB control! So sad.

It doesn't mean Gaugemaster are supplying Amazon, merely that they have a marketplace relationship. Sure enough I've just found loads of items that are "fulfilled by Gaugemaster". Never really see the point when retailers have a decent e-commerce site (whether Gaugemaster qualifies is a different point!).

Thanks, I think you've amplified my point because I can remember when Gaugemaster appeared to sell on their name and reputation for controllers etc. I realise they are a Market Place partner with Amazon but I wonder why? They appear to have sacrificed their place among model railway suppliers by diversifying to the point where allies and partners have become competitors.

But I fear we have drifted from the title and theme of this thread...... possibly?

Quote from: Doddy on June 27, 2021, 06:07:54 PM

But I fear we have drifted from the title and theme of this thread...... possibly?

There has been a lot of 'drifting'! The purpose of me starting this thread was to talk about duty etc on goods exported from the UK, i.e. imported to other countries. I have not counted, but it seems that the majority of posts are talking about duty etc. on goods coming in to the UK.

purely as a heads up,
with all the uncertainty on this subject, I banged off an order to the far east for some BTR-80s and some M-35s, apologies but 1:76th scale for wargames.
apparently RM now have them so waiting to see if they are delivered, or the dreaded RM admin charge and customs.

will advise.

Hi Dannyboy, I think this where we were when we met in March-sadly. I wonder why people suddenly find it consequential?

Quote from: njee20 on June 27, 2021, 05:33:31 PM
... "fulfilled by Gaugemaster". Never really see the point when retailers have a decent e-commerce site (whether Gaugemaster qualifies is a different point!).

It's another global sales channel.  I'll do some searching on google ("due diligence" to check around for good prices) but for convenience I probably hit Amazon and eBay first when looking for most things rather than trawling loads of individual shop web sites. I'll only hit specific shop sites for things like spares or bulk orders of specific items that I know they carry, if I've seen a sale advert, or google says it's cheaper there.  Not what shop owners want to hear I guess, but I'm well past the days of dropping into a local model shop or the local electronics store now.  I prefer the online global marketplace, and it's the shops which have a presence on Amazon and eBay which are likely to get my custom.

When buying things from the UK, I am finding it a lot less hassle to order from Amazon. UK VAT is automatically deducted and, okay, they do add import duties etc. if required, but I know up front exactly what the item is going to cost me. Amazon have a guarantee that if they over charge me for duties etc. they will reimburse me. The system does work, as only last week I received a refund of 11 cent and a couple of weeks ago, they refunded me 1 cent -  I kid you not.   :). Ebay is starting to get expensive, certainly for items of rolling stock from the USA, mainly because a lot of the sellers now use the 'Global Shipping Programme' and then there is duty to pay on top of that. An example is a piece I am watching at the moment, $US 32.99c + $US20.03 postage + $US14.88 import charges, so postage and the charge come to more than the cost of the item!

Interesting! I'm a huge Amazon customer, 3-4 orders a week, but have never once ordered anything railway related, just not a site I ever think to use.

@njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147)
Certainly worth checking. I have noticed that some things are cheaper buying direct from a model shop, but I like the hassle free way of doing things with Amazon. Being a Prime user, delivery is quite often within 2 or 3 days, (to Ireland). I ordered something earlier this afternoon and delivery is promised for Wednesday.

Quote from: njee20 on June 27, 2021, 07:13:56 PM
..have never once ordered [from Amazon] anything railway related, just not a site I ever think to use.

Two of the best bargain Arnold locos I've had were from Amazon.  First one bought on eBay and turned out to be one of those resellers who trawl hundreds of Amazon listings to create eBay listings, then use Prime and the Gift option to fulfill, but still a great price (about £35 for a brand new £80+ loco).  Once I new the source I bought another one directly from Amazon and even cheaper without the eBay seller's markup :D

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/53/5885-290617204520.jpeg)

Quote from: class37025 on June 27, 2021, 06:33:07 PM
purely as a heads up,
with all the uncertainty on this subject, I banged off an order to the far east for some BTR-80s and some M-35s, apologies but 1:76th scale for wargames.
apparently RM now have them so waiting to see if they are delivered, or the dreaded RM admin charge and customs.

will advise.

parcel arrived this morning by roayal mail...

total order value £26.24 with free postage, which from tracking must have come by air freight.

value on the customs declaration was £7.78 gbp  :hmmm:

so not sure if there is still a below £15 INTO uk without VAT / customs / RB admin charge or not.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on June 27, 2021, 10:59:28 AM
I've still not had anything from UPS demanding VAT and handling on over £460 of drum kit from a German shop that arrived over 3 weeks ago. This was free of German VAT so I fully expect there should be something to pay.

Ah well, the bill arrived today from UPS for the VAT and handling.  Three weeks after delivery.  Fair enough I'm not complaining as it is for the amount I expected.  So I didn't "get away with it!" after all.

And if you don't pay...!?

My thoughts exactly. It seems very strange as in my experience the couriers/customs want the cash before they release the goods. It seems suspicious that they make their demand a couple of days after your 'mea culpa' to this forum.

now you've got me waiting for the knock on the door  :'(

Perhaps their distribution centres are overloaded with parcels waiting for people to pay, so they've started delivering before payment.

As for what happens if you don't pay - they know where you live.

Quote from: Doddy on June 29, 2021, 01:41:28 PM
It seems very strange as in my experience the couriers/customs want the cash before they release the goods. It seems suspicious that they make their demand a couple of days after your 'mea culpa' to this forum.

Not strange at all. If they're going to demand payment before handing over then at the very least they need to inform you beforehand of the amount owed. I received nothing at all, and never saw anything on the tracking page.
I think UPS have been so busy over lockdown they've had to change the delivery and payment model otherwise there would be so many re-deliveries due to people not being able to pay at the time that it wouldn't be economical.   
If you play with UPS' web site it's all geared around commercial businesses shipping stuff and paying their bills at a later date.  Useless for private individuals (I tried setting up an account but got nowhere). 

I'd been expecting to pay the money. The invoice didn't offer methods of payment other than sending a cheque with the remittance slip, but I phoned the "queries" number given and they have an option to pay by card over the phone.  You could also tell from the delays at the other end that they're still not really geared up for it: lots of "bear with me while I start up the system to take a payment" type of thing.

I found the same with UPS, I recall tracking a package (something trivial like some 3D printer resin), and it required I set up an account, upon which they sent me a letter welcoming me to UPS and all sorts, definitely an organisation focused on B2B shipping.

Quote from: njee20 on June 29, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
I found the same with UPS, I recall tracking a package (something trivial like some 3D printer resin), and it required I set up an account, upon which they sent me a letter welcoming me to UPS and all sorts, definitely an organisation focused on B2B shipping.

Yeah. I created an account and twice I tried to set up tracking of packages linked to delivery address in the hope a "Pay Now" button would appear (that's what their robot help system says should be available). Twice they sent me by post an authentication code to enter, both times the code wasn't recognised when I entered it.  I gave up at that point.

I have just received an email from AddressPal, part of the Irish postal system, regarding VAT from 1st July -

"VAT and customs charges already apply to AddressPal purchases from Great Britain and USA with a value greater than €22. From July 1st the VAT exemption of €22 will be removed. VAT and customs charges will now apply to all applicable items."

I have not found out yet whether this applies to goods bought before 1st July, that are posted 1st July onwards, or not.

Here in australia we got the same issue and doesnt matter if its 5 dollars or 500 dollars.
I bought a railway book from a uk company it was 2nd hand on ebay but because they do a lot of trade to australian people ebay collects the 10% gst or vat ontop of the item charge after the gov here got wise on all the money they are missing out on.
So if i go shopping at hattons or rails were pretty much paying the same as the uk price once they add on the gst

In the uk anything under £130 you dont pay duty on if its classed as toys and Games, I buy from the continent and Japan and havent paid any duty yet

Welcome to the forum.

That's not quite true. The £135 threshold (not £130) is significant for the collection of VAT (below and the retailer collects it, above and HMRC do on import) as well as being the threshold for duty on non-excise goods (is everything other than alocohol and tobacco products!).

Model railways are 0% rated for duty, so the value is irrelevant, over £135 you just pay VAT on import, there is still no duty due.

so under £135 - nothing to pay on import, over £135 - VAT payable plus fees on import.

There is a contingent issue when it comes to import duty. You may be buying something to use on a model railway but it could well be classed as something dutiable. The continental 3D printing houses won't classify what you see as a loco body as a toy. It will be a piece of plastic which may be subject to duty. A toy/game needs to comply with certain safety and labelling standards, and the 3D printed loco body or box of electronic components will not have been certified in that way.

https://support.shapeways.com/hc/en-us/articles/360061541594-Brexit-FAQ

The solution is to keep order sizes including shipping below GBP135. For export from the UK, the customs authorities at destination may have higher/lower import thresholds for charging duty, as mentioned above for Australian sales tax.

Maybe I should have put this in the "angry" thread, but here goes.
I've just received a delivery of 7 tank wagons from Rails with a value of 194€. Went to La Poste to pick it up and got myself charged an extra 42€ customs duty, increasing the overall cost by just over 20%. All I can say is that I'm pleased that I acquired the vast majority of my rolling stock before Brexit and that in future, when I'm buying track and electronics stuff, I'll get it directly from within the EU whenever possible.

Even though the import duty limit is €150, you still have to pay VAT on anything imported from the UK. That's along with the handling charge the courier charges for applying that VAT. Which is why I now have to keep small amounts of cash ready in case the postman turns up with any pre-orders I made from the UK turn up.

As a for instance, my package of two NGF 10th Anniversary wagons cost me an extra €12 when they arrived in the post.

The end result of course is I'm no longer ordering anything from the UK unless it's absolutely necessary.

@Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2) will be pleased to hear that NGF 10th Anniversary wagons are 'absolutely necessary'. :thumbsup:

This customs mess cuts both ways, as we in the UK know well when we order anything over the cost limit from EU suppliers and retailers. Which is why I don't.

[gmod]I realise it is so easy to drag politics into this subject but discussion about Brexit and the fall out is pointless political comment and against forum rules. As such, I have modified and removed the odd post to better reflect the complaint but without the politics. Please try to desist making such comment [/gmod]

Have RoS deducted the British VAT from your order? Or did you end up paying VAT twice?

Quote from: Newportnobby on December 11, 2021, 11:07:40 AM
I realise it is so easy to drag politics into this subject but discussion about Brexit and the fall out is pointless political comment and against forum rules. As such, I have modified and removed the odd post to better reflect the complaint but without the politics. Please try to desist making such comment

All these customs problems are due to brexit.
It's a fact.
It's not political.

i have removed the latest offending post - we an apolitical and family friendly forum

NickR.