James May's big trouble in model Britain
BBC 4, 9pm (1 of 2)
Trouble down at t' model shop
Just spotted that, thanks for posting the details. And I note it is followed by episode 7 of 10 of the series 'The Joy of (Train) Sets' . A repeat I beleive.
PS. Big Trouble... is about Hornby: "Hornby Director Simon Köhler assesses the decline of his beloved company during his four-year absence. Master modeller Jim is given the biggest build of his modelling life."
Being ex Merchant Navy, I'm also interested in the programme following 'The joy of (train) sets' about the docks ands shipping.
Could be a long session for the recorder tonight.
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on March 06, 2019, 12:57:14 PM
Being ex Merchant Navy, I'm also interested in the programme following 'The joy of (train) sets' about the docks ands shipping.
Could be a long session for the recorder tonight.
Martyn
I missed that one!
I thought the James May programme was charming.
Peter, Head of Archives, is a legend! 8)
Quote from: Buffin on March 06, 2019, 11:17:11 PM
I thought the James May programme was charming.
Agreed!
I have always thought he is a really good presenter who knows what he is talking about. Good to see him back on the BBC. And I loved the languid pace of the programme; making time to dwell on fascinating matters like blood pressure pills and making a sandwich.
Hornby really got themselves into a mess and I hope that it's not too late for them. I remember worrying when I read an article by one of their previous management team which was so stuffed with inane 'management-speak' it read like a very clever parody. The present people appear to have a very good idea what they need to do and I could understand every word they said.
It was lovely to see Mr and Mrs Baird of Harburn Hobbies on the telly. It's a splendid shop and I get many of my 'N' gauge items there. I suppose that I could save a pound or two ordering from the big mail order suppliers, but it's agreeable to have a little trip to Leith Walk and they are such jolly nice people. And there is also a new-ish Wetherspoons at Waverley station where the purchases can be examined before the journey home.
Quote from: RailGooner on March 06, 2019, 11:30:50 PM
Peter, Head of Archives, is a legend! 8)
Seconded!
I'm looking forward to next week's episode.
John
Best viewing this month so far.
:)
I rather liked the StABLE acronym. Stash Aquired Beyond Life Expectancy :)
I'm looking forward to the fight scene next week.
And there was evidence of concern about Hattons becoming major competitors with their 66. It's a two sided coin between commissioning models that the majors have not or won't produce, and cherry picking the best sellers (like 66s) which could easily upset the apple cart and even push the majors (who have to provide wagons and coaches and other stuff) out of business. Hattons, Rails, Olivias Trains, etc have been good so far and not focussed on mass market locos. The Hattons 66 seems to be the straw that has broken the camel's back (especially the Bachmann camel).
Bob
I haven't watched all of part one yet, but I already hope they bring out a DVD! I could watch this again and again. :thumbsup:
that Hellcat was stunning :o :thumbsup:
I watched it and really enjoyed it. Makes a change from the 'other circus shows' of previous years :dunce: Also makes a change to see a non mockery documentary about the inside of our hobby too. Anyway Looking forward to part 2.
Cheers
Anthony
At last a programme that shows the modelling community as real people instead of anoraks and that there are an awful lot of us who put millions of pounds into the economy. James May has come up with a very entertaining and informative programme, which shows the hobby from all points of view from the manufacturer to the retailer and the buyer. congratulations to Hornby for being brave enough to allow the cameras to intrude on what must have been a difficult time for them as they try to recover from the disaster that was the previous management. I for one will be watching the second part with a lot of interest - well done to James May and the production team. as for Jim, I will now call my round to it box the sable box! he is an outstanding modeller
Regards,
Alex
i was very amused by the "bleeping out" of the museum's curator, of his opinions of the last management! JAmes MAy was also very funny.
A pity that he is not doing the Railway building competion shows.
Just a reminder, part two tonight bbc4 9 o'clock.....the fuming competitors and a dramatic showdown.....
thanks
ill see what champions league scores are before deciding if i watch it
i enjoyed pt 1
tim
I found part 2 just as enjoyable as the first. Good to see Peter still smiling. Thought Simon Kohler handled Hattons' and Rails' disappointment really well.
Did anyone else try the infeasibly long and obviously fake URL at the end? [spoiler]
I can confirm it doesn't resolve. :-[
[/spoiler]
Hopefully more series to follow on Dapol, Bachmann Farish, RevolutioN Trains, et al. :D Hint hint @James May ! :D
Quote from: RailGooner on March 15, 2019, 11:59:02 PM
I found part 2 just as enjoyable as the first. Good to see Peter still smiling. Thought Simon Kohler handled Hattons' and Rails' disappointment really well.
Did anyone else try the infeasibly long and obviously fake URL at the end? [spoiler]
I can confirm it doesn't resolve. :-[
[/spoiler]
Hopefully more series to follow on Dapol, Bachmann Farish, RevolutioN Trains, et al. :D Hint hint @James May ! :D
Thank you for this. I agree completely; a marvellous programme. I found the Scalextric parts interesting, just like the Airfix ones in the first episode. And the paradox of Hornby's two best customers now also being its competitors was very cleverly explored.
James May is the person for this type of programme; I loved his, "Realistic chuffing sound"* and "Rails of Sheffield in Sheffield". Although I enjoyed the 'Great Model Railway Challenge', this was better.
I think John of Rails of Sheffield is worth a programme (or series) on its own.
John (No relation!)
*As I recall he used the phrase about his Tri-ang Hornby
Flying Scotsman in the Barnstaple to Bideford programme a few years ago.
I thought the two programmes very good although one or two of Captain Slow's comments disappointed, like the one in the first show "We've pixelled out the teenager's face in the front row so he has a chance of getting a girlfriend" (or words to that effect)
Really? Is that how railway modellers are perceived? :unimpressed:
I'm not sure I know how Simon Kohler sleeps at night, too. :hmmm:
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 02:47:30 PM
...
I'm not sure I know how Simon Kohler sleeps at night, too. :hmmm:
Why is that? Is it because of the Terrier and 66?
I wonder if there is any chance of getting James to present if they do another series of the challenge, instead of the two :censored:
Quote"We've pixelled out the teenager's face in the front row so he has a chance of getting a girlfriend" (or words to that effect)
Really? Is that how railway modellers are perceived? :unimpressed:
I am going to be generous and suggest James was mearly riffing off the stereotype. It's a sad state of affaires but some judge others on such stereotypes when they find out what they enjoy as hobbies.
Of course, we the enlightened know that it is those people's loss, I am sure James knows this as well ;)
Skyline2uk
Quote from: class37025 on March 16, 2019, 05:13:05 PM
I wonder if there is any chance of getting James to present if they do another series of the challenge, instead of the two :censored:
That would be nice, but I think he's too dyed in the wool BBC.
Quote from: Skyline2uk on March 16, 2019, 08:26:47 PM
Quote"We've pixelled out the teenager's face in the front row so he has a chance of getting a girlfriend" (or words to that effect)
Really? Is that how railway modellers are perceived? :unimpressed:
I am going to be generous and suggest James was mearly riffing off the stereotype. It's a sad state of affaires but some judge others on such stereotypes when they find out what they enjoy as hobbies.
I know he meant it as a joke but how many younger modellers will take it to heart? It's not really funny and it's not really helpful to my mind.
Quote from: RailGooner on March 16, 2019, 03:14:58 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 02:47:30 PM
...
I'm not sure I know how Simon Kohler sleeps at night, too. :hmmm:
Why is that? Is it because of the Terrier and 66?
Correct - but purely the way I think. They must be his 2 biggest customers in the UK.
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 09:20:34 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 16, 2019, 03:14:58 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 02:47:30 PM
...
I'm not sure I know how Simon Kohler sleeps at night, too. :hmmm:
Why is that? Is it because of the Terrier and 66?
Correct - but purely the way I think. They must be his 2 biggest customers in the UK.
I get it. My initial thought was "Simon Kohler, you sneaky little :censored: ".
But Hornby have long been a manufacturer of railway models. Hattons and Rails have long been retailers of railway models. Both Hattons and Rails face relatively weak competition from other much smaller retailers selling exactly the same products. I think they've become too comfortable sitting at the top of the retail tree and were both extremely naive not to consider that Hornby would compete against them in manufacturing. Especially considering how historically strong a seller the Terrier is for Hornby.
I kept expecting Mr Kohler to come back with "Well you started it, moving in on our manufacturing business. :P ". But I'm glad he didn't go that low.
Quote from: RailGooner on March 16, 2019, 10:19:45 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 09:20:34 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 16, 2019, 03:14:58 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 02:47:30 PM
...
I'm not sure I know how Simon Kohler sleeps at night, too. :hmmm:
Why is that? Is it because of the Terrier and 66?
Correct - but purely the way I think. They must be his 2 biggest customers in the UK.
I get it. My initial thought was "Simon Kohler, you sneaky little :censored: ".
But Hornby have long been a manufacturer of railway models. Hattons and Rails have long been retailers of railway models. Both Hattons and Rails face relatively weak competition from other much smaller retailers selling exactly the same products. I think they've become too comfortable sitting at the top of the retail tree and were both extremely naive not to consider that Hornby would compete against them in manufacturing. Especially considering how historically strong a seller the Terrier is for Hornby.
I kept expecting Mr Kohler to come back with "Well you started it, moving in on our manufacturing business. :P ". But I'm glad he didn't go that low.
It's not just retailers, Kohler and Co have gone in direct competition with Dapol with the Large Prairie (announced at the 2019 launch) which there are rushing out (due August2019) before Dapol's version. I get the impression they want to harm other manufacturers to make more profit for themselves. It maybe good for Hornby but I can't see it being good for the model railway industry.
Quote from: nookfield on March 16, 2019, 11:21:38 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 16, 2019, 10:19:45 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 09:20:34 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 16, 2019, 03:14:58 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on March 16, 2019, 02:47:30 PM
...
I'm not sure I know how Simon Kohler sleeps at night, too. :hmmm:
Why is that? Is it because of the Terrier and 66?
Correct - but purely the way I think. They must be his 2 biggest customers in the UK.
I get it. My initial thought was "Simon Kohler, you sneaky little :censored: ".
But Hornby have long been a manufacturer of railway models. Hattons and Rails have long been retailers of railway models. Both Hattons and Rails face relatively weak competition from other much smaller retailers selling exactly the same products. I think they've become too comfortable sitting at the top of the retail tree and were both extremely naive not to consider that Hornby would compete against them in manufacturing. Especially considering how historically strong a seller the Terrier is for Hornby.
I kept expecting Mr Kohler to come back with "Well you started it, moving in on our manufacturing business. :P ". But I'm glad he didn't go that low.
It's not just retailers, Kohler and Co have gone in direct competition with Dapol with the Large Prairie (announced at the 2019 launch) which there are rushing out (due August2019) before Dapol's version. I get the impression they want to harm other manufacturers to make more profit for themselves. It maybe good for Hornby but I can't see it being good for the model railway industry.
Hornby have to act fast to stamp their authority whilst the competing customers still need their product. The man from Sheffield's reaction was he would come back with better competing products, but it will take time to build up the portfolio.
It's not N but manufacturers and suppliers competing to make a point is good for quality and competition.
You can bet Ben and Mike have put the wind up Farish and Dapol as if the market is not expanding they must be taking a big slice of the available pie.
It will be interesting to see what's going on at the Ally Pally show next Saturday.
Do we have time to get @James May and a crew down to Ally Pally? :D
Simon's not running a cottage industry in a shed and able to be content with making a steady five figures a year. The company's been losing millions. The survival of the iconic brands, and quite a few people's jobs, are depending on his flair and enthusiasm.
If he can make a company of that size nimble enough to seize quick opportunities, I wouldn't criticise him. His increasing numbers of competitors will pounce on opportunities they can spot, and if even he can't make Hornby, Airfix etc work, it could well go bust.
Business is business. Hattons, and Rails of Sheffield from Sheffield, are now manufacturers too, and Simon hasn't got a widespread retailing business to fall back on.
He seems to know what sells, and he has to get those profits in, fast.
Quote from: Buffin on March 17, 2019, 07:32:59 AM
Simon's not running a cottage industry in a shed and able to be content with making a steady five figures a year. The company's been losing millions. The survival of the iconic brands, and quite a few people's jobs, are depending on his flair and enthusiasm.
If he can make a company of that size nimble enough to seize quick opportunities, I wouldn't criticise him. His increasing numbers of competitors will pounce on opportunities they can spot, and if even he can't make Hornby, Airfix etc work, it could well go bust.
Business is business. Hattons, and Rails of Sheffield from Sheffield, are now manufacturers too, and Simon hasn't got a widespread retailing business to fall back on.
He seems to know what sells, and he has to get those profits in, fast.
They lost £30m in 5 yrs!!
Quote from: Railwaygun on March 17, 2019, 08:09:38 AM
They lost £30m in 5 yrs!!
He didnt lose that money. He's not been there for 4 years. There was new management that came in, moved the business to Sandwich that is implicated in the wrecking of Hornby. Not that I know all the history, but there is plenty of scope for a new volume in the history books on Hornby.
Bob
Quote from: Buffin on March 17, 2019, 07:32:59 AM
Business is business. Hattons, and Rails of Sheffield from Sheffield, are now manufacturers too, and Simon hasn't got a widespread retailing business to fall back on.
Rails Of Sheffield are not a manufacturer, they just commission other manufactures to make exclusive items for them.
Crushing the opposition maybe good for Hornby, but it will not be good for railway modellers
Quote from: Buffin on March 17, 2019, 07:32:59 AM
He seems to know what sells, and he has to get those profits in, fast.
Without being inside of he industry it's hard to know but I suspect Hattons and Rails have been telling the manufacturers what customers are asking for and these requests have been ignored until the retailers decided to commission the models their customers want. I don't think he knows what sells except by listening to the retailers and his choice of new products is no more than an attempt to slap down the upstarts who after years of asking for new products decided make it happen.
just my view, but if you want a cl66 in pink, with sky blue roof and purple ends, and no one lists one, if you ask the manufacturer to produce this as a commission for you, I'd say that is fair.
if you decide to produce models in direct competition with the manufacturer, then I'd say you were now a competitor and if you get 'punished' it's your fault.
this is what seems to be happening with Hattons and Bachmann.
not a real worry to us, as Hattons don't seem interested in producing in N
Crushing the opposition would not be good for Hornby. It's generally accepted that competition breeds innovation, innovation leads to profit.
Hattons and Rails indeed cited Hornby's developmental stasis, during the five years of loss - the Sandwich Years - as their reason for commissioning the manufacturing* of new railway models. Were they motivated by a desire to see the poor uninspired railway modeller provided with better higher fidelity models or was that a means of satisfying their true desire - greater profits? A bit of both but mostly the latter IMHO. Hattons sell plastic aviation themed model kits. Hornby manufacture plastic aviation themed model kits, a branch of their business which had also been in stasis during the Sandwich Years. Why weren't Hattons riding to the rescue of the poor uninspired aircraft modeller?
I don't feel sorry for any of the players here, because I don't believe any of them were particularly damaged. Each was trying to gain a limited advantage over the others - just as most businesses in any common market do. Hattons and Rails will not have lost money here. They probably profited less than they had hoped and egos will have taken a knock. But they'll bounce back, driven by those egos and the desire for profit. And the OO railway modeller benefited by having a greater choice of Terriers and 66s.
* Yes that is literally what Rails and Hattons are doing rather than manufacturing themselves, but I can accept them being called simply manufacturers in the context of this discussion.
Quote from: class37025 on March 17, 2019, 11:48:54 AM
not a real worry to us, as Hattons don't seem interested in producing in N
Apart from a Beyer Garrett, that is?
https://www.hattons.co.uk/Ngarratt (https://www.hattons.co.uk/Ngarratt)
Bob
I don't think we should overlook the relationship of Rails and Hattons to the old management, who were either complicit or failed to act when Hattons and Rails made their move.
As far as i'm concerned the Rails Terrier is a Dapol product sponsored by Rails and is actually an inter manufacturer commercial pitch at its heart. Dapol would not build without the guaranteed up front sales to Rails, and you can bet it will become a Dapol standard model in the future.
Hatton's however is promoting a new source, and is a commercial threat that cannot be ignored and resulted in the new Hornby low cost 66's. If you look at the video it's the Hattons man that nearly looses the place as its going to hurt him, where as the Sheffield man was not really surprised (me thought he protested too much rather than show real anger).
Hettons have clearly funded all of the class 66 where Rails have only contributed for the Terrier.
In N we have already several shop sponsored re-liveried models from Dapol and Farish. Revolution and others are spearheading a possible quadrupling in the number of manufacturing sources from which they are the marketing agent for a significant part.
Quote from: Bob G on March 17, 2019, 08:31:23 AM
He didnt lose that money.
We didn't say he did. The company did and it's the company that Simon (and Lynton Davies, who we didn't see much of but is obviously key) have to rescue.
Quote from: Buffin on March 17, 2019, 12:55:57 PM
Quote from: Bob G on March 17, 2019, 08:31:23 AM
He didnt lose that money.
We didn't say he did. The company did and it's the company that Simon (and Lynton Davies, who we didn't see much of but is obviously key) have to rescue.
That's cleared that up then. Wish people would be clear when they are talking about Simon Kohler and then drop in conversation that they (implying he was one of them) lost £30m.
I'd be cheesed off if I lost even £1m of my own money :)
Bob
Quote from: RailGooner on March 17, 2019, 11:51:19 AM
Crushing the opposition would not be good for Hornby. It's generally accepted that competition breeds innovation, innovation leads to profit.
In a lot of business that is true, but in a limited market such as Model Railways then if you don't have an opposition then the standards remain the same and profit margins can increase.
Quote from: Railwaygun on March 17, 2019, 08:09:38 AM
Quote from: Buffin on March 17, 2019, 07:32:59 AM
Simon's not running a cottage industry in a shed and able to be content with making a steady five figures a year. The company's been losing millions. The survival of the iconic brands, and quite a few people's jobs, are depending on his flair and enthusiasm.
If he can make a company of that size nimble enough to seize quick opportunities, I wouldn't criticise him. His increasing numbers of competitors will pounce on opportunities they can spot, and if even he can't make Hornby, Airfix etc work, it could well go bust.
Business is business. Hattons, and Rails of Sheffield from Sheffield, are now manufacturers too, and Simon hasn't got a widespread retailing business to fall back on.
He seems to know what sells, and he has to get those profits in, fast.
They lost £30m in 5 yrs!!
They ( Old Hornby) lost £30m !
And that is despite their "design clever" philosophy which was intended to reduce the number of parts in a single model, to reduce labour costs.
Bob