Hattons and Farish

Started by Bob G, January 21, 2019, 12:21:28 PM

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Newportnobby

Can we take it the Hattons Garrett will not be made for them by Farish? :laugh:

guest311

just sent the following query to Hattons,

"any update on your dispute with Farish / Bachmann ?

will you be receiving items as released or re-stocked or should we be looking at other sources ?

basically, will you be selling Farish / Bachmann when your current stocks are cleared or not ? "

will update when / if a reply is received.
lets be honest, if Hattons are not going to receive stock, it would be nice / honest of them to clarify the situation so customers do not miss out by pre-ordering items they know they are not going to receive, at least for now.

Rabbitaway

If it is about Hattons being a manufacturer then Bachmann are being selective in applying their wholesale restrictions

Gaugemaster are also a direct manufacturer competitor in that they produce DC and DCC controllers and scenic items / buildings. Therefore in manufacturing competition with Bachmann products

With a bit of research I suggest there will be other similar examples of manufacturers who are also retailing Buchmann products

Hornby, Dapol and Heljan would appear to be happy to supply Hattons for now

There appears to be a bit of a cartel culture within Buchmann which has been keeping prices high for us the customer

njee20

Clearly the controller thing isn't really the same.

It appears to be the 66 that really caused the problems, presumably as the first model to actually 'cost' Bachmann sales. I can't imsgine for a second Hatton's are genuinely thinking of "taking on" Bachmann in any capacity, I can't think of any outcome where they are not the losers in all of this.

Rabbitaway

Why is this not the same, Bachmann are a significant supplier of DCC systems as are Gaugemaster. The only difference is Gaugemaster are an established manufacturer over many years

red_death

Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 21, 2019, 10:06:18 PM

There appears to be a bit of a cartel culture within Buchmann which has been keeping prices high for us the customer


That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

Mike



red_death

Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 21, 2019, 11:23:50 PM
Why is this not the same, Bachmann are a significant supplier of DCC systems as are Gaugemaster. The only difference is Gaugemaster are an established manufacturer over many years

Bachmann buy in their DCC systems (as do gaugemaster) so where is the problem? More to the point Gaugemaster were the incumbent whereas Bachmann's main aim with controllers has been to supply them as part of trainsets.



Dr Al

Quote from: red_death on April 21, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."Dr. Carl Sagan

PLD

Quote from: Dr Al on April 21, 2019, 11:39:34 PM

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan
Cut throat price competition yes, but encourages competing in other ways such as good old fashioned customer service...

But however you look at it, by definition you can't have a "cartel" of one supplier, so...
Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 21, 2019, 10:06:18 PM
There appears to be a bit of a cartel culture within Buchmann which has been keeping prices high for us the customer
...is some way wide of the mark...

Dr Al

#69
Quote from: PLD on April 22, 2019, 12:13:47 AM
Cut throat price competition yes, but encourages competing in other ways such as good old fashioned customer service...

Well, the opposite - no price competition, because all the big retailers just knock exactly 15% off. Competition in terms of customer service is only likely to come from the smaller retailers IMHO, offering more personal service from their local shops but those that can't actually access stock discounts from Bachmann because they can't buy in bulk, and fundamentally then can't knock the 15% off.

So whether it's 'cartel' (not my word!) or not, I don't think their anti-competitive approach is great for the small model shop (no ability to access discounts), or the big model shop (hands tied on pricing) and thus for the modeller and buyer.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."Dr. Carl Sagan

red_death

Quote from: Dr Al on April 21, 2019, 11:39:34 PM
Quote from: red_death on April 21, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan

Entirely legal and that isn't really my point. Rabbitaway is implying that the manufacturers are artificially keeping the price high for their benefit. By contrast Bachmann (and others) limit on initial retail discounts don't benefit Bachmann directly but do benefit retailers (as they are retaining more of their retail margin). Not really the same point as Rabbitaway seems to be implying.



Snowwolflair

Quote from: red_death on April 22, 2019, 01:29:43 AM
Quote from: Dr Al on April 21, 2019, 11:39:34 PM
Quote from: red_death on April 21, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan

Entirely legal and that isn't really my point. Rabbitaway is implying that the manufacturers are artificially keeping the price high for their benefit. By contrast Bachmann (and others) limit on initial retail discounts don't benefit Bachmann directly but do benefit retailers (as they are retaining more of their retail margin). Not really the same point as Rabbitaway seems to be implying.

I agree the limit on discount is to stop its retailers killing each other off.

If one seller is allowed to completely undercuts a market and the competition goes bust,  they can then up the prices to whatever they want and the customer and the manufacturer has nowhere to turn.

Stuart Down Under

Quote from: Chris Morris on April 21, 2019, 02:26:16 PM
Bachmann probably think they won't be hurt too much because their products are all available elsewhere and will expect any loss of revenue from Hattons to be replaced with increased revenue elsewhere. Our purchases are largely about the items we want and not the shop we buy it from so this is a reasonable expectation.
I'm not so sure that this is true. If you are talking about committed hobbyists with healthy budgets, then yes, we may just go elsewhere to find the new Farish kit. However, although I tend to that camp, I think I will take Hattons' side. Many other people will just choose from what is available, so Bachmann will miss out. I suspect that both Bachmann and Hattons will lose some business, both to other retailers and other manufacturers.

Bachmann clearly have the right to decide who to trade with, but this is probably not a rational business decision on their part. In a previous life, I used to work for Amazon.com, and many people thought that Geoff Bezos was mad when he opened up his website to enable anyone else to sell anything, even in competition with Amazon's own product range. Bezos was confident that opening up the marketplace for everyone to trade would benefit all buyers and sellers, and it wouldn't do Amazon any harm. I think Amazon has demonstrated a more successful strategy than Kader Industries!

Come on, Bachmann, time to grow up!  :NGaugersRule:


Rabbitaway

Just for clarity I used the word "culture" to describe the business attitude of Buchmann in the way they try to control who they supply to and the limitation of allowed discounts. I did not say there is an illegal cartel.

There is a case that controlling price does benefit Buchmann as in drives up the base price point of their products therefore maintaining their wholesale margin.

Bachmann has an odd closed and controlling business culture, just look at the way shut out most people at shows with the centre of their stand for club members only. No other manufacturer leaves the majority of their customers viewing their products from outside their stand's footprint.

Now the competition is snapping at their heels they don't like it!


woodbury22uk

Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 22, 2019, 01:51:59 AM
Just for clarity I used the word "culture" to describe the business attitude of Buchmann in the way they try to control who they supply to and the limitation of allowed discounts. I did not say there is an illegal cartel.

There is a case that controlling price does benefit Buchmann as in drives up the base price point of their products therefore maintaining their wholesale margin.

Bachmann has an odd closed and controlling business culture, just look at the way shut out most people at shows with the centre of their stand for club members only. No other manufacturer leaves the majority of their customers viewing their products from outside their stand's footprint.

Now the competition is snapping at their heels they don't like it!


I think that others might perceive this business model differently. At the shows I have been to the Bachmann range has been arranged in cabinets for everyone to view, including engineering prototypes, livery tests, etc. There may some items in the area reserved for people who have paid to join one of the Bachmann clubs, but I do not see that as really disadvantaging anyone, as routinely those items appear as quality photos on forum pages and press releases just after the show.

I can see both sides of the Hattons dispute, and agree that it will hurt both parties. If no resolution is found, it will encourage Hattons further along the manufacturer/wholesaler route, and Bachmann will still make trains.


Mike

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