Am I being unreasonable?

Started by PennineWagons, May 29, 2012, 07:43:37 PM

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longbridge

I also think everyone has different experiences with one brand or the other, in my case I had two duds out of every three locos I bought, IMO money is hard enough to come by in the first place and this is by no means a cheap hobby, its been 17 years since I first tried British N Gauge and IMO there has been some improvement in quality but no enough for me to stay modelling British.

My other argument is if German, French and American modellers get better quality equipment why cant the British, OK some of the other stuff is more expensive but I for one would have been happy to pay a little more for reliability, its pretty sad when 25 year old Minitrix locos are so sought after because of reliability issues with modern products.
Keep on Smiling
Dave.

Bikeracer

I think the only thing to do is to keep returning faulty locos to the shop either for a refund or replacement,until the number of faulty returns have an effect on the manufacturers bottom line I doubt they'll take much notice.

Personally I'd prefer better build and running quality to all the fragile details on locos nowadays,yes it's nice to have highly accurate models but not much use if they can only sit and sulk in a siding.

A little while ago I went to a shop selling Farish locos and tried several different steam locos out at the shop,the majority were poor runners right out of the box and I eventually purchased a Jubilee when I could see it was okay.I'd already returned a Jinty and a Tornado.
I can only assume that the faulty ones would just be put back on sale for someone else to try.This and another shop won't sell Dapol locos anymore because they've both had Dapol locos get lost after returning them.

Allan
I'm not a complete idiot..some bits are missing.

weave

Don't know about GF or Dapol as do 'continental' but with regard to complaining, I'm rubbish at it. I either say nothing or just have a little winge. My girlfriend and especially my sister go straight for the jugular and things tend to get done.

Refunds, keep old one and we'll send a new one, vouchers to keep you stum.

Not saying you are being unreasonable but its a sad world we live in and being unreasonable and even nasty seems to work. You might even get something free!  :)

Cheers Weave

Karhedron

Speaking to the large retailers, the return rates appear to be broadly similar for both Farish and Dapol. I am not aware of any design faults in N gauge locos on the scale of the Heljan Class 17 motor problem in 00 gauge. There are certain more specific issues such as the tendency to wheels to lock on the current Farish steamers or some of the older Dapol tank locos to shed their coupling rods.

The failure rate is a consequence of outsourcing production to China and not testing anything before dispatching it. Manufacturing to higher tolerances or testing to weed out badly assembled models would increase the price of the models.

To me the issue is how failures are dealt with. Since most models are bought from shops, your contract is with them. All shops have a legal obligation to replace or refund faulty goods. The only time this approach has let me down was with a Peco 2251 which was the last one in stock.

In this case I returned it to Peco who repaired it free of charge. Rather than getting angry about a failed loco, I prefer to judge manufacturers on how they handle such events. In my case I have always ended up with a working loco in the end and I am satisfied with that.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on September 29, 2015, 11:28:46 AM
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

mickeyflinn

#19
I purchased a Graham Farish Warship off eBay a few months ago. It came from the clearance arm of a toy and hobby retailer in Leicester, and was brand new and an absolute bargain. I ran it in on DC before converting it to DCC when it immediately burnt out a chip as soon as it ran with the lights switched on. Apart from the slightly long time it took to be returned, the loco was fixed, tested & the chip was replaced free of charge. Absolutely no complaints with the other locos of theirs and looking forward to getting my Blue Pullman!!!

I've also bought several Dapol locos, again off eBay;
1. A superb 9F that runs like a dream, even though it only gets its power from the tender pick-ups (the wires from the engine broke)
2. A Britannia Tornado, again runs like a dream.
3. A Class 121 railcar which stopped running whilst being run in, never to move again (seller refunded with no problems)
4. An A4 'Wild Swan' which was very noisy, the drive clicked and one of the drive wheels wobbled. Replaced with another, which although it's not as good as the 9F or the Britannia is getting better with running.

As other people have said, the odd faulty item will always get through with modern manufacturing techniques. Most manufacturers are quite happy to deal with faults and look after their reputations.

EtchedPixels

Quote from: Jack9465 on May 30, 2012, 05:42:14 AM
And in some ways the 00 market kinda proves that. N gaugers get half the size of loco for about the same price as a 00 model. Market forces.

Half the height, half the width, half the depth - ⅛ of the size in fact !
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

red_death

Quote from: oldrailbug on May 30, 2012, 07:36:14 AM
I also think everyone has different experiences with one brand or the other,

On an individual basis that must be true, but on a whole market basis I would be surprised if there is too much variation.

Quote from: oldrailbug on May 30, 2012, 07:36:14 AM
My other argument is if German, French and American modellers get better quality equipment why cant the British, OK some of the other stuff is more expensive but I for one would have been happy to pay a little more for reliability, its pretty sad when 25 year old Minitrix locos are so sought after because of reliability issues with modern products.

In a roundabout way you have answered your own question - better quality for a higher price.  It certainly isn't a general rule that foreign models are cheaper (they can be) or better quality (I have got/seen some that are no where near the quality of current UK models).

I wouldn't expect a model bought off Ebay to be necessarily trouble free, but then I wouldn't pay as much as I would if buying "new" directly from a trader. I know if I buy direct from a trader that I have a relatively easy option if something goes wrong (repairs/replacement/refund as appropriate for the circumstances).



tgv_obsessed

Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 29, 2012, 11:22:37 PM
Half of the problem is simple unfortunately. You can have beautifully reliable UK outline models for the small market involved providing you don't mind them doubling the price 8)

Alan

I have a hunch - and it can only be a hunch because I know almost nothing about these things - that this is correct. However perhaps someone who knows, can expand on this somewhat! My head is a mass of ideas that I cant fit together because I dont know.

Firstly I'll start with the few problems I've had and corroborate them with internet forum problems.

A Farish Black 5- the old one that wasnt DCC ready- the wheels on the tender werent going round and the fellows at Norwood Junction fixed it for me. I have seen quite a few posts about this on various forums.

A Farish 125 br blue, the one with a motor at both ends - the motor at one end burned out-  but it is very very very old and BR lines has told me that only luck will fix it (nned a donor)!

One of my Kato Eurostars has a slightly dodgy coupling between 2 of the coaches makes it derail sometimes, and that makes me paranoid about all the other Kato stuff so I watch them like a hawk, but no problems. - again i've seen internet posts about this. This is fixable i'm sure- at the moment i run it as a 4 car rather than 8 car train, but i ought to source a coupling somewhere.

Sorry back to the point, my smattering of snippets of knowledge and opinion that i cant put together:

the fellows(and ladies) at the Signal Box in Kent tell me its the build quality of the continental stuff is so good- but then they would say that because they specialize in it

that Minitrix and Flieschmann rolling stock by and large gets through their own continental first radius (7 3/4 inch!)

i picked up some beer glass logic that UK outline being that little bit bigger has to have bigger wheels and somehow thats an issue for running

that the manufacturers are going for looks rather than performance- and apparently that is true in OO as well

that the continentals and the japanese 'run' their locomotives more than we do

continental stuff is more expensive

japanese stuff is kept low (not THAT low!!!) in price because of its large internal market

I'm not saying each point is true, it might all be cobblers, but I cant help feeling that it is something to do with the tolerances and the radii that the model will go round- because that appears to be what the continental and japanese stock have in common- continental first radius for the continental models and a huge tolerance for Kato (which stipulates 315mm or 12 1/2 but will chug round my peco seconds (10 3/8) without much trouble)

In my sort of twisted and ignorant logic, i'm concluding that because (and i know to some this will be blasphemy to use the word) Hornby, Bacmann OO, Bachmann Farish and Dapol have laid down the ground rule that they can stipulate a minimum radius greater than first, it sort of allows them to build models with smaller tolerances, but because of those smaller tolerances they become more unreliable.

Now i'm not arguing for narrow radii, merely that because the trains are unsuitable for them they are worse runners or if not worse runners have a higher failure rate. I know this is sophistry but without knowing more about these things that is my hunch.

So i ask to those in the know (rather than myself who has constructed a sophists argument from half truths garnered from here there and everywhere), what is it that needs to improve that will double the price and make the models very reliable?


running in is so you get used to the noise, oops, to bed the gears down properly

EtchedPixels

Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 04:30:28 PM
A Farish 125 br blue, the one with a motor at both ends - the motor at one end burned out-  but it is very very very old and BR lines has told me that only luck will fix it (nned a donor)!

Easy enough to get but they are pricy and it will run like crap anyway. Farish changed the design early on a for a reason !

Quote
One of my Kato Eurostars has a slightly dodgy coupling between 2 of the coaches makes it derail sometimes, and that makes me paranoid about all the other Kato stuff so I watch them like a hawk, but no problems. - again i've seen internet posts about this. This is fixable i'm sure- at the moment i run it as a 4 car rather than 8 car train, but i ought to source a coupling somewhere.

Power car or between passenger cars. In the latter case its worth having a glance at it and seeing if it has flash on it or something that catches a bit. In normal form those couplers will run a full length (20 odd car) eurostar with the motor at the back around 9" curves at a scale 100mph+... 8)

Quote
the fellows(and ladies) at the Signal Box in Kent tell me its the build quality of the continental stuff is so good- but then they would say that because they specialize in it

Some of it. Some of the Minitrix stuff is very toylike (eg the ICE set). The Fleischmann stuff is priced accordingly however.

Quote
i picked up some beer glass logic that UK outline being that little bit bigger has to have bigger wheels and somehow thats an issue for running

Shouldn't be. An the wheel sizes don't vary that much, in fact they are much the same.

Quote
that the manufacturers are going for looks rather than performance- and apparently that is true in OO as well

that the continentals and the japanese 'run' their locomotives more than we do

That I can believe. One reason the Japanese stuff is engineered the way it is, including the replaceable small breakable bits is because in many environments it has a "box->table->play->box" life cycle. A lot of the European stuff also emphasizes functionality and in Germany especially the "tech toy" side of it - sensor tracks, automation, etc

Quote
japanese stuff is kept low (not THAT low!!!) in price because of its large internal market

And (for internal consumption) they are much closer to China !

Market size makes a huge difference. You do a large amount of R&D, you produce a set of prototypes, you produce a set of tools, you clear all of the artwork with the rights owners for modern stuff. Then you take that huge up front cost and divide it by the number of units sold. In plastic models like death metal *volume* is everything.

Quote
what is it that needs to improve that will double the price and make the models very reliable?

Higher prices means you can spend more on the design and on fixes, on the quality of the build and in some case the choice and quality of the materials. Chinese workers are like everywhere else, pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

So higher prices means for example more metal in the chassis. It means you've got more scope to run the prototype for 3 months and go back to the drawing board.  It means you can use a better quality motor. It means you can use stronger more expensive alloys for coupling rods. It means you can use the right plastics for the gears.

Thus a decent model will have a good lump of metal for the chassis giving good traction and power pick up. It will have self lubricating gears made with plastics that don't split. It will be driven by a high quality motor that has been tested for thousands of miles of running not a cheap can motor with brushes softer than andrex bog paper. They are often also simpler - the complexity like extra gear chains used to slow cheap nasty motors goes away. Tricky power pickup arrangements are replaced by weight etc.

The CJM chassis is pretty much of that ilk, at a price point to match.

Another very well engineered chassis is the Union Mills one. That's a no-nonsense "right motor, lots of weight, no complexity" chassis. As a bit of engineering I find it beautiful - there really is nothing left to take away or simplify further.

I just wish he'd include a bit of space for a DCC decoder 8)
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

tgv_obsessed

Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 30, 2012, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 04:30:28 PM
A Farish 125 br blue, the one with a motor at both ends - the motor at one end burned out-  but it is very very very old and BR lines has told me that only luck will fix it (nned a donor)!

Easy enough to get but they are pricy and it will run like crap anyway. Farish changed the design early on a for a reason !

Quote
One of my Kato Eurostars has a slightly dodgy coupling between 2 of the coaches makes it derail sometimes, and that makes me paranoid about all the other Kato stuff so I watch them like a hawk, but no problems. - again i've seen internet posts about this. This is fixable i'm sure- at the moment i run it as a 4 car rather than 8 car train, but i ought to source a coupling somewhere.

Power car or between passenger cars. In the latter case its worth having a glance at it and seeing if it has flash on it or something that catches a bit. In normal form those couplers will run a full length (20 odd car) eurostar with the motor at the back around 9" curves at a scale 100mph+... 8)


Yes yes, am on the lookout for a more modern br blue 125! and the eurostar couple is between 2 coaches, the thing has come apart and needs glueing back amongst other things i think, i can put it all together but very gingerly and it isnt stable

Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 30, 2012, 04:50:55 PM

Higher prices means you can spend more on the design and on fixes, on the quality of the build and in some case the choice and quality of the materials. Chinese workers are like everywhere else, pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

So higher prices means for example more metal in the chassis. It means you've got more scope to run the prototype for 3 months and go back to the drawing board.  It means you can use a better quality motor. It means you can use stronger more expensive alloys for coupling rods. It means you can use the right plastics for the gears.

Thus a decent model will have a good lump of metal for the chassis giving good traction and power pick up. It will have self lubricating gears made with plastics that don't split. It will be driven by a high quality motor that has been tested for thousands of miles of running not a cheap can motor with brushes softer than andrex bog paper. They are often also simpler - the complexity like extra gear chains used to slow cheap nasty motors goes away. Tricky power pickup arrangements are replaced by weight etc.

The CJM chassis is pretty much of that ilk, at a price point to match.

Another very well engineered chassis is the Union Mills one. That's a no-nonsense "right motor, lots of weight, no complexity" chassis. As a bit of engineering I find it beautiful - there really is nothing left to take away or simplify further.

I just wish he'd include a bit of space for a DCC decoder 8)


Thank you, thank you, thank you!!
running in is so you get used to the noise, oops, to bed the gears down properly

Mustermark

I would have thought if the design didnt have to accommodate small radius, then more reliable running should result, not less.

Wide tolerances, in manufacturing terms, does not mean a good end product.

Being able to narrow down what the chassis has to do should enable a better design.

But i am not sure there is a link as Kato has proven that tight curves AND high reliability can be done.

It is all down to cost and the relationship between investment and market return.  Bigger market = higher development investment = better model trains

The problem isn't as simple as doubling the price of a loco though, because your market shrinks as the price goes up, and your return on investment may actually go down. It is a very delicate relationship and manufacturers will shy away from pushing prices up as they know fewer of us will buy and potentially reduce their total return.

Getting manufacture done in China is also a complex affair. The reduction in costs can be eaten into by complexities in getting what you design built correctly.

I think that the UK model industry is getting to grips with those issues, and is hopefully using factories that can do what they need to.  These are not necessarily the cheapest factories (which may be most attractive to start with, and could be the ones not full with Kato orders), and finding the right ones may take time. We should see improved quality coming out of China, after all, they can do it for Kato! It is my hope that this will mean that our models have improved quality and that prices dont suffer for it. Hopefully the new Dapol guarantee is a reflection that they think they have got it right.

But in short, for the UK sector of the market, it is all being driven by the economy of the market size and the need to minimize development costs and use the cheaper factories.

http://www.marksmodelrailway.com
I'm a personality prototype... you can tell, can't you.

EtchedPixels

Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 05:12:40 PM
Yes yes, am on the lookout for a more modern br blue 125! and the eurostar couple is between 2 coaches, the thing has come apart and needs glueing back amongst other things i think, i can put it all together but very gingerly and it isnt stable

They can normally be fixed even if the plastic pin on the coach has snapped as you can drill it out and replace it with the same diameter plastic rod. I'm not sure who would do Kato repairs like that in the UK though.

I don't know if the newer chassis fit the older HST maybe Dr Al does. If so that might be a way to get a blue 125.
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

tgv_obsessed

Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 30, 2012, 05:43:58 PM
Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 05:12:40 PM
Yes yes, am on the lookout for a more modern br blue 125! and the eurostar couple is between 2 coaches, the thing has come apart and needs glueing back amongst other things i think, i can put it all together but very gingerly and it isnt stable

I don't know if the newer chassis fit the older HST maybe Dr Al does. If so that might be a way to get a blue 125.

BR lines says it doesnt, and i believe him! also he says much as you do- dont bother with the older no dummy car one- look out for the newer hst, even if it a non runner because thats a better bet
running in is so you get used to the noise, oops, to bed the gears down properly

silly moo

I think the original poster was right to be upset but might get a better response by being polite to start off with. He could always get rude later  ;) I have always found Farish and Dapol very helpful.

I think that part of the problem with returns is that quite a few people who get faulty locos fix them themselves to save the trouble of sending them back, that doesn't give the manufacturers a true picture of all the faulty locos, then there are collectors who never run them at all and some folk who don't mind noisy locos with wobbles!

I do have some sympathy for Farish and Dapol, some modellers don't look after their models properly, fail to lubricate them, over lubricate them, drop them, have bad track work and the wrong controllers. They get locos returned with bits of scenery in the gears and white glue on the wheels.

I have actually been to the Bachmann warehouse in Barwell, to return a loco in person as I was in the area. While I waited for a replacement loco, I chatted to the man doing the repairs, he was scratching his head over a 00 loco, he tested it and tested it and could find nothing wrong with it.

For anyone thinking of visiting Bachmann's headquarters, I think I was quite lucky to be let in, I knew the name of person in charge of repairs and they made an exception in my case because I was due to fly to Africa in a few days time.  It wasn't very exciting anyway, just a warehouse.

Regards

Veronica

Pengi

Just one Pendolino, give it to me, a beautiful train, from Italy

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