Cost of N Gauge Models in Context

[emjaybee]

I told you, you're not coming back in. I warned you not to venture out. You'll have to find another one.

[Paddy]

One additional point I would make though... in British N gauge there is not an a la carte menu option when it comes to models.  No doubt this is simply a reflection of market size?  For example, returning to the MK1 coach above it is a one size fits all option.  One cannot chose to swap detail/finesse for a lower cost - it is simply a case of take it or leave it.

The vast majority of my own MK1 fleet is based on the upgraded models that Farish released when they moved production to China.  For me, the improved build quality, finer wheels coupled with the enhanced liveries (e.g. printing on the under-frame, coach ends etc.) was the compromise I was happy with.

The latest MK1s are exquisite and I would not criticise anyone for buying these but each to their own.

Kind regards

Paddy

[MatP]

Hi All,

To Paddy's list of negative economic factors you could also add the recession in the early 1990's - the level of damage it did to the UK is, in my opinion, difficult to over-estimate. It also did British Rail an immense amount of harm.

I didn't mention the Chinese wages regulations again, as these were brought up earlier in the thread and I was taking it as read that we all knew about them. But these wage rises and increased quality are IMHO not the only factors explaining higher prices - a lot of it has to do with, again in my humble opinion, scarcity of supply. Now, whether that's to do with production capacity in China, or deliberate restriction of supply to keep prices high, is another question. Apart from saying they won't make any more Seacows (or, I think, Grainflows), what else have Farish done in their product choice and design ethos to mitigate the rising costs in China and the difficulty of getting production slots there? Anything?

For me, personally, a lot of modern RTR is over-specified. 1990's models had lots of shortcomings but now, I believe, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. A lot of the improvements over 1990's models are things you simply can't see when a train is in motion. Modern Farish locos are frequently a lot lighter than earlier versions, due to, for instance, plastic bodyshells on steam locos, and the devotion of large volumes of space to electronics. And gears still crack.

I suspect that my fundamental problem is that I am simply too far below the average income level of the dominant class of contemporary N gauge modeller, the sort of person who seems to want maximum accuracy, cost not a problem.

Even if the current Farish pricing is 100% justifiable or 100% explainable (not of course the same things), it is still going to have an impact on the size and composition of the UK N gauge modelling community (and especially on new recruits).

Many people have suggested that UK N gauge needs a budget range. The standard answer to this is that the market isn't big enough to support one. But if prices continue to rise beyond people's ability to pay, then the market will get even smaller, and you end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I agree with the comments made about Dapol coaches and would love it if Dapol could start producing Mk1's of comparable quality / price to their existing ranges of coaches... One thing I didn't refer to when talking about Mk1 coaches in 1990 is that the Minitrix ones were also then available and at least 10% more expensive than the Farish!

I'm sure most of you are bored to death with this email by now but I hope you will forgive me for adding that I have expressed an interest in a RevolutioN Class 89 and fully intend to buy one. My reaction to hearing that it might happen was similar to the theme tune of the movie "Team America" but changing "America" in those lyrics to "Class 89". It is for me quite a lot of money, but worth it for a special, one-off loco, as opposed to a storecupboard staple. I just hope that Farish, by comparison, don't go further down the road of catering mainly for the modeller who already has (almost) everything.

Anyway, I think my papier-mache is dry now, so I will go away and do some modelling.

Mat

[woodbury22uk]

In 1990, the mean-average UK income (all adults) was £23,570; now (well, before the lockdown) it is £34,200. Leaving out changes in the buying power of a pound, but on raw "number of pounds" figures only, that's an increase of 45%. The rate of increase of the median income over the same period, incidentally, is 45.5%.


Best Wishes,
Mat P.

What was your source for the income data? This UK government source gives the 1992/93 figure as £11500 before tax, which implies that income halved between your 1990 figure and 1992/93. It did not. The only ONS source for 1990 I can find gives the 1990 figure as 12084 per annum, which matches much better with the £11500 for 1992/93. Changes the perspective a bit. See Table 3.1 at this link for the 1992/3 figure. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/258888/tables3-1_3-10.pdf

As an aside the average United States Household income in 1990 was USD 37403, when the USD/GBP rate ended the year at 1.92.

[Paddy]

Hi @MatP

Oops, sorry forgot about the 1990s recession.  To be honest, despite Politicians telling us otherwise the western economies have been deteriorating for decades.  As I stated earlier, a lot of this has been masked but as some point the bill will have to paid.

You are correct that it is often stated that the British N gauge market is not big enough to support a "budget" range.  However, I think it is probably more accurate to say that the market cannot support both.  It would be interesting (some may say disastrous?) to see what would happen if there was a good budget range available.  For example, if you could get the Poole MK1 coaches as Farish(Bachmann) released them back in the mid-2000s for say £20 (£17 discounted) would they sell?  Would they effectively destroy the market for the latest super-detailed versions?

Manufacturers keep telling us that they produce the models their customers want (in simple terms) and the demand is for super-detailed.  I do believe it is wrong to think that most of the people buying high cost, new RTR items are well-off.  People will (if possible) stretch their finances to obtain that must-have desirable item whether it is wine, jewellery, cars, tech or toy trains etc.  Again, it is not about the cost but rather ones personal "value" position.  My own stock is a mix of LIMA, Minitrix, Dapol, Farish(Poole), Farish(Bachmann) etc. where each model was obtained because "I wanted it" and this therefore justified the "cost" to me i.e. it was of value.

As you pointed out yourself, you feel it is worth paying the price of RevolutioN's proposed Class 89 i.e. you see "value" in that particular purchase.

Actually, I personally agree with you in that I think a lot of the latest models are too detailed which pushes the prices up.  I would also like to see manufacturers focus a wee bit more on robustness and reliability rather than the latest new feature/detail.  I fear we are very much in the minority though as Hornby's experience with "Design Clever" would seem to confirm.

Good luck with the papier-mache.

Kind regards

Paddy

[njee20]

I would love it if people could offer some similar figures from other, comparable hobbies. In the meantime, I'll stop boring / insulting you and go back to papier-mache scenery, using some old newspapers I found in the loft. I've just been landscaping around an overbridge using an Eastern Daily Press letters page - every letter is about Brexit. Ooh, the nostalgia...

Not sure it constitutes comparable, but cycling compares even less favourably, frankly! There's not necessarily the same lineage as with models, so to say "x is a new version of y" is harder, but in 1999 the most expensive mountain bike in Specialized's (huge manufacturer) range was the S-Works FSR XC, it was £2,600. The 2020 version is £9,000. With road bikes a 2002 Trek 5900 was £3500, the 2020 equivalent is £11,500, so more than a 300% increase in 18 years. This is broadly the same with parts too, although I'd say that complete bikes have probably gone up more quickly than the sum of their parts, if that makes sense. Like trains, technology has moved on, but the external factors of rising labour costs are inevitably a huge factor.

[Newportnobby]

I suspect that my fundamental problem is that I am simply too far below the average income level of the dominant class of contemporary N gauge modeller, the sort of person who seems to want maximum accuracy, cost not a problem.

The fact remains we, as individuals, choose what to spend our disposable income on. Being on a small private pension and the state pension I luckily have money to spend on 'fripperies'.
These do not include holidays, drinking, smoking or a new car. However, there will be a line drawn between what I want and the cost of said wants. Cost will always be an issue at some point.

[Southerngooner]

For me I would say that the biggest rise in cost for model railways now is the price of DCC equipment. You can spend shedloads controlling your points, making your locos have sound, etc etc but most of what can be done with DCC can be done in other ways. These may be more labour intensive (more wiring for instance) or just different (speakers under the layout and prerecorded sound instead of chips at £100 a pop) but it does seem churlish to say that locos and stock are expensive when the accessories are just as bad. I remember an RM article where a guy put lights, firebox glow, sound etc into a £120 Hornby T9 and it came to over £400. That's barmy in my eyes.

I try to keep costs down by buying secondhand, building my own, keeping to tried and tested DC technologies, but all the while trying to avoid buying older Poole or Chinese Bachman, etc. Value for money in your chosen hobby is very relative. What's good for one will be too expensive for another, c'est la vie!

[jpendle]

I just had a quick look at various sources on the web and the data is very confusing because everyone has a different take on 'income', even the ONS.

Finding a figure for MEDIAN salary was very difficult. The ONS shows median disposable income, but then you have to find their definition of disposable income.

There's also the habit of using average and median interchangeably. For any debate like this, it is the median that matters, i.e. what is the salary earned by the greatest number of people in the country.

But to paraphrase some important historical French bloke

"the art of taxation pricing N Gauge models consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing."

So the various manufacturers don't care what people earn, as long as there are enough retailers/customers to buy the models that they make at the prices that they set.

Regards,

John P

[Newportnobby]

I remember an RM article where a guy put lights, firebox glow, sound etc into a £120 Hornby T9 and it came to over £400. That's barmy in my eyes.

Maybe to you it's barmy but to him it wasn't. Anyone paying CJM prices would not consider themselves barmy either. It's what they want to spend their money on and no one can argue against it.

Value for money in your chosen hobby is very relative. What's good for one will be too expensive for another, c'est la vie!

Exactement, mon ami. To a certain extent the whole discussion is moot. Any hobby is not expensive if it can be afforded. If it can't be afforded to one's satisfaction then don't do it.
Simples.

[37214]

The posts today make very interesting reading; from my point of view coming back to N-gauge after 25 years, the price difference is noticeable. Whilst a new DCC Farish 37 is affordable, do I want to pay that amount for what is to my mind, a toy train? Now some will probably howl at that description and insist that it is a detailed miniature replica but at the end of the day, to me, it is a toy. (Preparing for a backlash here, I'm bound to be unpopular now).

I think N-gauge is affordable by buying secondhand Poole Farish and renovating it, which is what I did when I first got into this hobby. Compared to the new products, obviously the quality difference is substantial but what is it that is the aim? If it's to run a few trains and enjoy fixing locos, building and painting kits, I think this is an acceptable approach. If the aim is to have as close to realism as is possible, then older secondhand is not going to be acceptable to many.

I'm more than content with my 1990's Poole Farish locos, kit built wagons (once I've built them) and my hand painted carriages with TPM inlays. They're not display or show standard but I'm happy with them.

Having said all of the above, I have recently been seduced by a new Farish DCC Class 37 and it is really impressive with its improved detailing and lights. I'm sure that I'll be acquiring a few more in the next few months. I haven't had a chance to see the new carriages in person yet, hopefully some time soon though. Are they really worth £40-45?

[njee20]

And then what about taking that new Farish 37 and fitting sound, for say £130 if you DIY, then sending it to Mercig for a respray and weathering, which adds another £350. You then have a £600 Farish 37. Still just a toy train, but as Nobby absolutely nailed value is purely in the eye of the purchaser, it bears quoting!

...
Maybe to you it's barmy but to him it wasn't. Anyone paying CJM prices would not consider themselves barmy either. It's what they want to spend their money on and no one can argue against it.
...
Exactement, mon ami. To a certain extent the whole discussion is moot. Any hobby is not expensive if it can be afforded. If it can't be afforded to one's satisfaction then don't do it.
Simples.

Some may scrimp and save for one as a super special one off, others may have a whole fleet of so modified locos, whilst others, evidently find it barmy.

The various modelling Facebook groups are full of people moaning about "idiots paying over the odds" for models, usually on eBay, but ultimately it's their money, and theirs alone, if someone wanted to pay £500 for an old Poole model then all power to them! I forget which comedian said it, but it's a bit like driving: anyone going slower than you is a moron, and anyone going faster is a maniac, regardless of your speed!

[Paddy]

The posts today make very interesting reading; from my point of view coming back to N-gauge after 25 years, the price difference is noticeable. Whilst a new DCC Farish 37 is affordable, do I want to pay that amount for what is to my mind, a toy train? Now some will probably howl at that description and insist that it is a detailed miniature replica but at the end of the day, to me, it is a toy. (Preparing for a backlash here, I'm bound to be unpopular now).

Brave, very brave... 

Mind you, we are not RMWeb! 

Kind regards

Paddy

[Paddy]

I haven't had a chance to see the new carriages in person yet, hopefully some time soon though. Are they really worth £40-45?

Down to the individual...  For some/many the answer is "yes".

Kind regards

Paddy

[Paddy]

Another aspect I would point out is that one person's "old" toy train is another's rare collectors piece.  Look at the prices that mint Hornby O Gauge, Hornby Dublo, Wrenn etc. can fetch.  Some of these items can make modern British N gauge look cheap! (Oops, sorry should have said good value)

Kind regards

Paddy