A recurring complaint on this forum is how unreliable and fragile modern N gauge locos are. So where are all these broken models? I'd love to get my hands on a few, I have lots of projects in mind that would use damaged or non-running Farish / Dapol steam locos as a starting point, but all that ever seem to turn up for sale "spares or repair" are Farish diesels with split gears, and 1970s plastic-chassis Pannier tanks. Not a rant, just puzzled and a bit frustrated by the lack of raw material for my particular kind of butchery.
Richard
Ask Dr AL ! ;)
Mine all ended up stripped for usable spares and the rest binned.
Quote from: belstone on June 16, 2019, 09:47:11 PM
A recurring complaint on this forum is how unreliable and fragile modern N gauge locos are. So where are all these broken models?
Reality... 99 of every 100
aren't broken and the satisfied owners don't feel the need to comment. You only ever hear about the 1%, so they are much rarer than the impression you get from reading any forum... ;)
I can account for three of them unfortunately--one that fell off my test track onto carpet, one Dapol unvalanced A4 with repeat offending valve gear, and a GF loco that ran sweetly until it suddenly refused to go.
I have a Hymek that sounds like the proverbial bag of spanners, but I'm hoping it just needs some running in - which on an end-to-end layout is not easy. I'll throw it your way if I get so frustrated with it I want to toss it. I also have a dummy with a YouChoos chip which I run double-headed (when it runs), so I'm invested enough not to bin the damn thing. Most days.
Yes, running in on end to end layouts is a problem. I have the same, even though strictly speaking my planned layout wasn't supposed to be. The only bit working is the branch!
I should set up a running in track with Kato, but other stuff keeps getting in the way!
DCC Supplies have (or had, I couldn't locate it at a quick check) a section on their website where they sell Dapol returns, graded according to degree of brokenness.
I have acquired a few diesel/electric locos sold as "non-runners" from various sources, all of which have been repairable, usually split gears (Farish) or electrickery issues (Dapol). I'm pretty sure I've see a few kettles marked as "non-runners" on the Hattons website, but I steer clear of those as repairing kettles is a rabbit hole I don't wish to jump down.
Quote from: Bealman on June 17, 2019, 05:11:35 AM
Yes, running in on end to end layouts is a problem. I have the same, even though strictly speaking my planned layout wasn't supposed to be. The only bit working is the branch!
I was glad that Coniston, despite being a branch terminus, had a spur up to the Copper House beyond the north end of the station and that, rather than just have a small fiddle yard for the spur and the main one for the rest, I chose to combine the two. Result, a roundy roundy which is handy for both track, etc. testing and for running in. Unplanned, I have to admit, but extremely handy.
When I have the automatic uncoupling sorted (and the means of seeing over/around things to do it) the plan is to operate the layout properly with trains arriving and the locos running round and departing from the same end. Large tender locos will go to the fiddle yard first for turning on the wye - which is what happened on the real line, they had to go down to Foxfield and around to Millom for turning on the big turntable there before coming back for the train waiting at Coniston.
I can send the occasional train of empty open wagons up the other end to the Copper House with the loco returning and, later on, send a loco up to bring the wagons back loaded.
Quote from: LASteve on June 17, 2019, 04:59:20 AM
I have a Hymek that sounds like the proverbial bag of spanners, but I'm hoping it just needs some running in - which on an end-to-end layout is not easy. I'll throw it your way if I get so frustrated with it I want to toss it. I also have a dummy with a YouChoos chip which I run double-headed (when it runs), so I'm invested enough not to bin the damn thing. Most days.
Mine was like that, it turned out the little gear at the top of one of the gear towers was not put in correctly, an easy fix as the wheel sets just pop out in one pease on these and no stripping is needed to get to the top gear.
Have a look you might be lucky.
Paul
I can account for two. Not, strictly speaking, non-runners, but really poor runners. One is an Ixion Manor' and the other is a Dapol 'B17'. The 'B17' was the last straw for my attempt at British 'N' gauge about 12 years ago. Feeling a bit fed up, I got a KATO Union Pacific 'F' unit and that was me away for 10 years' trouble-free running in 'N' scale. I also explored the world of '00' gauge.
Then I saw a review in Railway Modeller for a Union Mills locomotive. That led to a major change in direction! And I'm particularly glad it did.
In my more optimistic moments, I think about running the 'B17' and 'Manor' with Union Mills tenders. It ought to be possible, although the locomotives will need a repaint as they are both in poor representations of their liveries.
John
My tally is just one.
A Dapol 41xxx 2-6-2T where the motion simply sprang off one day. I guess it's easily repairable but beyond my capabilities so it has become a static on shed resident.
I replaced it with another, because I really like them as a class, which has performed admirably for at least 3 years.
For me, the Dapol steam engines just seem too fragile, maybe in an attempt at fine detail at the expense of reliability.
Just my thoughts.
Quote from: Train Waiting on June 17, 2019, 09:18:00 AM
I can account for two. Not, strictly speaking, non-runners, but really poor runners. One is an Ixion Manor' and the other is a Dapol 'B17'. The 'B17' was the last straw for my attempt at British 'N' gauge about 12 years ago. Feeling a bit fed up, I got a KATO Union Pacific 'F' unit and that was me away for 10 years' trouble-free running in 'N' scale. I also explored the world of '00' gauge.
Then I saw a review in Railway Modeller for a Union Mills locomotive. That led to a major change in direction! And I'm particularly glad it did.
In my more optimistic moments, I think about running the 'B17' and 'Manor' with Union Mills tenders. It ought to be possible, although the locomotives will need a repaint as they are both in poor representations of their liveries.
John
I have that same Ixion Manor John and, indeed, the livery is somewhat "unusual". However, mine runs well despite the annoying cardon shaft which falls out on a regular basis if I'm a bit clumsy picking it up!
Martin
I've several in a drawer that even less runnable than when I first bought them.
Always looking out for outside cylinder 0-4-0/0-6-0s, I've bought most of the small US locos as spares/repairs from eBay, but some very strange things have happened to most of them over time, plastic bodies warping, plastic chasses melting and even one metal chassis that has actually crumbled.
I suppose I think the bits will eventually be useful, but that day might be a long way off.
Mike
I've just realised that all of my broken locos are the older Poole Farish ones most of which have split gears.
All of my Chinese Farish locos run well as do most of my Dapol locos with the exception of one pannier tank that is very noisy.
I think I've been very lucky but then again I've always been very careful with my locos.
:NGaugersRule:
I've got a bunch, although some of that is deliberate. Of the 100 or so locos I've bought new or second hand over the years, I've got about 5 I think that have developed faults since purchase and are on my repair line. 2 of my Farish diesels have split gears, a Minitrix Britannia is currently locked up and I've got a couple of old Farish Halls that are stuttering and wobbling.
I've got a lot more 'wrecks' on my repair line too, ones that have either been picked up as non runners to repair them or given to me to see what I can do with them. Most of them are like the Britannia or Halls in that they're just in need of a bit of TLC after running for so long.
Statistically though, my collection doesn't really indicate anything as any locos I bought new that had issues went straight back for a replacement or a refund (if it's an obvious design flaw). All the ones that went back permanently were longer wheelbase Dapol steam engines.
The good news is, I've finally found an hour or so off to start playing repairman with two of my dead locos and this weekend 'fixed' (both were just wheel contacts in need of a bit of bending and some general TLC), a Farish Class 03 and a Class 14.
It has always seemed that N gauge items second-hand and damaged are in short supply. I have an agreement with a couple of people who do second hand stalls at shows and charity events but the amount of N gauge stuff I get referred to me amounts to damaged buildings and the very occasional coach or wagon although I did pick up a nice rake of Mark one Pullmans recently.
I think it is to do with a balance between those who want to repair. modify, detail, butcher or repaint stuff and those who have a five minute fling with the hobby then give up. It does seem there are more of the latter in OO than anything else probably for readily apparent reasons.
However these contacts I have, have recently been bemoaning the fact that second-hand items even in OO are becoming scarce. They can sell more than they can get. They blame this on two factors. Firstly the aggressive advertising of some second-hand dealers and the fact that they believe that these traders and others dispose of non-runners, poor runners etc by breaking them for parts.
In short I don't think you are going to see any change in the situation as it stands particularly with the slow delivery of new item by manufacturers.
I well timed thread. I just posted a listing for those Dapol / Farish locos that I have that need fixing https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=7313 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=7313)
As for where to find broken locos, well eBay seems to have a load of non-runners listed. Also, some of those listed as runners have turned out to be problematic >:(.
I am really interested in the Union Mills approach and when Colin re-releases some more locos this summer (I am on the waiting list for some GWR goodness!) I hope to see how those work. I also recently bought a N-Drive motor off eBay but don't yet know how to install it in one of my problematic locos ( :helpneededsign: ).
I really want to learn how to fix my own locos but despite some searches of the Internet not much shows up for British N-Gauge. Hence, this forum is my hope!!!!!!!!
I have gradually fixed most of my 'broken' locos.
I now have a Voyager with broken lights, a Farish 66 needing new gears, and 2 CL86's with broken lights.
I also have a Farish 66 which has been cannabalised for parts, so that doesn't count. I don't do kettles and I think diesels/electrics are much simpler mechanisms.
John P
Quote from: Doc Pye on June 17, 2019, 01:01:56 PM
I really want to learn how to fix my own locos but despite some searches of the Internet not much shows up for British N-Gauge. Hence, this forum is my hope!!!!!!!!
Watching videos and asking questions on here will go some way, but I reckon the best way to learn is to sit with someone while they do a repair, for example join a model railway club and befriend the "loco expert" :D Get them to give a commentary as they work!
I learned the ins-and-outs of old Triang locos as a pre-teen back in the 70s, and naturally the principles of how today's models work are still the same. Things like DCC are just a layer on top. Over time you develop the experience to recognise the causes of common symptoms, the techniques to clean and service models and the basic tools required - and most importantly where are all the screws and tabs which hold various models together :D
I used to enjoy doing the "Loco Doctor" thing at my club's show: we would encourage people to bring along "Little Johnny"'s dead Hornby loco and we'd give it a good clean and adjustment, pretty much always able to send them away happy with a working model.
Once you've built up some skills and confidence and you're able to assess the condition of something at a 2nd hand stand at a show or maybe on ebay, it can then be really satisfying to pick up a bargain spare/repair and bring it back to good health. :)
Well I have quite a number of faulty Chinese-production Farish locos, all with split gears. 2 x 24s, 3 x (old) 20s, 2 x (old) 31s, 1 x 158, 1 x B1. Plus a UM J27 where a wire has become detached.
Only faulty Dapol loco I've had was a B1 which shed its valve gear soon after purchase. The replacement I received was, and is, fine.
QuoteI used to enjoy doing the "Loco Doctor" thing at my club's show: we would encourage people to bring along "Little Johnny"'s dead Hornby loco and we'd give it a good clean and adjustment, pretty much always able to send them away happy with a working model.
So when are you appearing in the South, preferably near that horrible place known as the 'capitol'??? ;)
Quote from: D9020 Nimbus on June 17, 2019, 03:49:48 PM
Well I have quite a number of faulty Chinese-production Farish locos... Plus a UM J27 where a wire has become detached.
That's a simple fix, surely? I once bought a UM B12 dirt cheap on ebay as not working, all that was wrong was the wire from the tender needed re-securing to the loco by the keeper plate screw as is standard for UM locos. 10 seconds and done :D
Quote from: honk843 on June 17, 2019, 11:59:04 AM
and the fact that they believe that these traders and others dispose of non-runners, poor runners etc by breaking them for parts.
Don't know whether that's true, but I've bought 'faulty - sold as seen' items from Hattons in the fairly recent past which turned out to be fixable without much difficulty. faulty / damaged stuff also comes up on ebay reasonably often.
I have noticed that certainly as regards diesels (don't know about steam), the prices seem to have become more polarised with some things going for a lot less than they would a year or two ago, for no apparent reason (i.e. there haven't been new production runs of those locos in those liveries), whereas other things are going for nearly double what they cost new. It can be difficult to see why, in some cases.
I have a significant number of locos about 80% are Farish and the rest by Dapol.
Failure rate is about 10% over time or out of the box
I repair these myself with split gears on diesels axles and short life with tender traction tyres on steam being the main issue with Farish, although I have had one motor failure on a class 66. All easy fixes with gears and traction tyres only costing a few pounds. As for Dapol failure with lights on diesels and broken tender wires on steam are the main issue. I just leave the lights unless the loco is still under warranty.
I have more issues with Dapol locos out the box with hot motors and steam throwing valve gear but these go back for replacements and once l get a good one they seem fine . Failure rate out of the box is about four times higher than Farish. Also Dapol steam locos seem to be more prone to being noisier runners but acceptable.
Only sitting with one broken loco at the moment which is a Dapol class 66 with split gears which in unusual. Having some difficulty in getting spares so looking at alternative gears from Farish
As said there are a number of Dapol returns being made available via DCC Supplies
Quote from: LASteve on June 17, 2019, 04:59:20 AM
I have a Hymek that sounds like the proverbial bag of spanners, but I'm hoping it just needs some running in - which on an end-to-end layout is not easy. I'll throw it your way if I get so frustrated with it I want to toss it. I also have a dummy with a YouChoos chip which I run double-headed (when it runs), so I'm invested enough not to bin the damn thing. Most days.
Hey Steve,
I find my Dapol Hymeks always sound like a bag of hammers, I have run mine in a bit and they quietened down some, but they're still pretty loud ( I still love them mind you!)
G.
This thread has got me thinking. Yeah, I've got a drawer full of broken stuff which I have had for years with the intention of fixing and they're still sitting there.
Mostly split gear Poole Farish (including three DMUs) and minitrix steamers with missing traction tyres.
Look on Hattons "pre-owned" lists. There are a number of non runners on offer - who would buy such an offer ? ???
Quote from: Foster on June 18, 2019, 04:36:28 AM
Look on Hattons "pre-owned" lists. There are a number of non runners on offer - who would buy such an offer ? ???
I have purchased a few such over the years and have turned them into runners :beers:
A good portion of my locomotive fleet has been created from "broken" donor locomotives. If fact eight of my (now) twelve Dapol LNER green A3s have been purchased "cheaply" as "broken" returned items. In most cases these would appear to have been mishandled; i.e. broken drawbars, wires, pinched valve gear etc with only one with an obvious factory assembly issue.
However, more recently supplies of these locomotives do seem to be drying up. Farish's decision to stop selling returned items on their show stand has also put a dent in getting hold of cheaper donor locomotives; what's happening to the returned items now? Some shops, such as (but not limited to) Hattons and Rails, do sell damaged locomotives from time to time - although I wouldn't recommend this method at the prices they seem to want. Otherwise it is a case of keeping an eye on eBay and the for sale sections on the various forums.
Re DCC supplies Grade 1-4 locos...
I had a quick look earlier and none appear to have photos of the loco in question. Has anybody purchased one from the site and / know if they would be prepared to supply a photo? The descriptions are all generic.
Thanks
Skyline2uk
I may have misunderstood the gist of this thread, but I miss bachman selling off their returned stock at the big shows like ally pally and tings, at vastly reduced prices.
I got a lot of very reasonable locos via this means. It just doesn't happen anymore.
Stevie
In my experience Dapol steam locos are an issue with regard to very early problems with tender wires and value gear
From new a A3 did one round of the layout and throw its value gear up near the piston, easily fixed because I could not be bothered sending it back, A4 throw its value gear after about three circuits and broke a tender wire, this one was not an easy fix so went back for replacement. The replacement had a broken tender wire out of the box. I have also replaced tender wires on a Britannia and B12.
I am an experienced n gauge modeller and know how to handle these models with care therefore not a mishandling issue
I am very wary of Dapol steam locos as I expect them throw their value gear which is a difficult repair
Rabbitaway,
It appears that you believe that my previous post was aimed at you. If so, my sincerest apologies as my ramblings truly weren't - I hadn't even read your post (slap wrist to me, as that is something that does annoy me!). My comment was solely based on my own experience of purchasing/acquiring broken locomotives and repairing them (mainly Dapol as they do more to cater to my 1930's LNER interests) as well as to note that, I too, have recently found that their are fewer of these "bargains" currently available.
Alternatively, if I have misinterpreted your last post then, again please accept my apologies.
Stevie
No offence taken, I was just pointing out my experience with Dapol steam locos, apologies if I caused any up-set
I do still buy them when they are on special offer on the Dapol stand at shows or on their web site. I would be reluctant to pay full money for these due to their track record with me on reliability.
As a matter of interest have you successful fixed any valve gear with broken rods or rivets on your returned locos
Thanks
Rabbitaway,
No up-set at my end but I wanted to make sure I hadn't caused any offense - it is all too easy to be misunderstood on internet forums. :-[
My own broken purchases are driven more from a very restricted source of funds and I'd happily pay full price for a good one if I could afford it.
Re valve gear: No, I've not undertaken such a repair. The one locomotive that had a broken plastic rivet (purchased knowing the fault) received a new set of valve gear - once I'd sourced a spare! However, I have now untangled more than a few sets of both Dapol and Farish origin. However, I believe that Dr Al has some experience in such matters.
My personal pet hate is the little plastic pin that holds the expansion link in place on the Farish N class. If that breaks, the whole assembly is a usually a write-off.
At the recent Great Central show I bought a Grange from Dapol direct who use the same codes as DCC supplies. I paid £30 for a grade one loco (minor buff mark or scratch) and the only problem I can see is that the name plates appear to be worn. It runs fine...so far. A grade four model would for example have a major glue mark, be a non-runner or have major cosmetic issues.
I wonder if Bachman find it more cost effective to break returned locos for parts. Their repairs people may also find it awkward not having the bit they need for a particular repair. I also know that other traders complained bitterly to them about the practice of selling returned locos cheap.
N class valve gear; send it to Bob -BR Lines--he will fix this issue and although it costs it does give you back a loco which as you say is otherwise a write off.
Quote
I find my Dapol Hymeks always sound like a bag of hammers, I have run mine in a bit and they quietened down some, but they're still pretty loud ( I still love them mind you!)
G.
Thanks, I think I might just have to run it a lot longer. I love the model, I don't want to give up on it.
I'm a great fan of Hymeks, but don't own one. They are a most attractive loco, especially in two tone green livery.
However, I keep hearing about problems with the models.
Quote from: Bealman on June 19, 2019, 03:57:44 AM
I'm a great fan of Hymeks, but don't own one. They are a most attractive loco, especially in two tone green livery.
However, I keep hearing about problems with the models.
I have them both in the two-tone livery. They look fantastic, the dummy is blameless, but the active one hurts my ears. Even SWMBO asks - what is wrong with that thing?
Oh dear.... I'll just buy a dummy one, park it on a siding and just enjoy looking at it, then. ;) ;D
I have both powered and dummy versions, and the dummy one is certainly really quiet. :angel:
The powered version is OK, well within the normal Dapol noise envelope. Mind you it was second-hand (I prefer to purchase my British locos second-hand from reputable sellers as it reduces the chances of it being a lemon fresh from the factory...)
Must try that.... I must admit that buying a second hand loco is something I've never considered, ever. However, I know you specialise in it, Ian.
Maybe I should keep me eye out for a second hand Hymek! Might get lucky!
Quote from: Stevie DC (formerly Atso) on June 18, 2019, 07:04:43 PM
Re valve gear: No, I've not undertaken such a repair. The one locomotive that had a broken plastic rivet (purchased knowing the fault) received a new set of valve gear - once I'd sourced a spare! However, I have now untangled more than a few sets of both Dapol and Farish origin. However, I believe that Dr Al has some experience in such matters.
@Rabbitaway (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2967) , as Steve says, valve gear is generally repairable. Often on the A3/A4 'dropped' gear is just that - it simply needs re-attached to the footplate and the assembly itself isn't damaged. I've repaired probably 15 odd like this.
More complex are repairs where rods are actually detached, either due to broken parts (plastic crosshead is the weakest part) or it's been amputated by a clumsy previous owner. Spare assemblies are available from time to time, and then it becomes a simple transplant task. Only awkwardness is winkling the new crosshead into the slidebars on the A3. It's much less common though and I've repaired probably 3 in this way.
Unlike Farish, the actual rods don't seem to want to easily take solder, so pin re-attachments can be a pain, which is where replacement assemblies are easier. The originals go in the spares box for potential use in future projects/scratchbuild as cannibalisation material.
Tender wires are fragile, generally at the solder joint between the wire and the 'eye'. The key is to avoid repetitive flexing resulting in metal fatigue in the wire at this point, and the method to achieve this is to angle them so they point inwards toward the central axis of the loco. The bending occurring as the loco goes round curves then occurs mostly in the wire centre over a larger length, avoiding the fatiguing that can otherwise occur when all the bending occurs at the joint pinch point. I always reset these wires now to this alignment.
Cheers,
Alan
Oh dear. I just looked at the DCC Supplies listings for Dapol spares and now I want to buy the whole lot. So many useful little parts :goggleeyes: Meanwhile I have finally acquired a Farish N Class with a mark on the paintwork for substantially less than the cost of a new one. This will provide a chassis for the K3 that I have been planning to build for ages. Anyone want an N Class body and tender?
Richard