Cost of N Gauge Models in Context

[Rabbitaway]

Hi All

Just for some context look at the cost of this little beauty

Bought as a play thing for lockdown

Syma S107G mini helicopter, beautifully made, flys great, 3 motors, remote control and stabilising gyroscope

All for £16.99 delivered

I am aware that they have made thousands of these but at £16.99 how does it compare against the prices we pay for N gauge

[zwilnik]

It's all about design for manufacture. While that helicopter is perfectly shaped to be fun to play with and made from cheap components, it only bares a passing resemblance to a real helicopter and isn't of a particular scale. So the designer can make a lot of choices in favour of simple assembly and cheaper components (much of which will be standard across literally millions of toys produced).

Now for an N Gauge locomotive, the designer is a lot more restricted. Very few of the components will be standard and they have to be done to very precise scale and detail. Also, because of all that detail, it'll require skilled workers to be able to assemble the components into a finished model and a lot more time to assemble than a toy helicopter.

All those unique mouldings and extra assembly time (with higher skilled workers) adds up.

[ntpntpntp]

I had a pair Pico-Z helicopters a few years ago, same sort of price and good fun for a while but eventually my lad and I lost interest.  These things are made in their hundreds of thousands, and don't require anywhere near the same precision of tooling and construction as a model loco. Not really worthy of comparison at all.

[Rabbitaway]

I agree on the cost advantages of the volume these models are made in but this is not in anyway a poorly engineered model, the Syma model has a very good reputation as an learning and entry level helicopter. The quality of the rc board and fit of components puts many an n gauge loco to shame

Not saying that a loco should be so cheap £16.99 but against well over £100 does need some consideration in this context. What about being charged just short of £20 for an basic tool wagon as a comparison

[njee20]

It's an apples:oranges comparison, totally irrelevant. That is to RC helicopters what a Brio train is to N gauge.

10 seconds on Google shows RC helicopters costing between £85-£500 generally. I wonder if the RC helicopter group are thinking they should move to model railways because this is only £12:

[Rabbitaway]

Apples and oranges are still basically fruit so one should not be excessively more expensive than the other

The Bio train is not a fair comparison to the Syam helicopter as this is an well engineered operational model not a rough bit of plastic and the comparison just shows how good value the Syam helicopter is for its price, I have the model in front of me and it is as well engineered as most of the n gauge models I have 

The point I am making is how good value the Syam is and a challenge to the value of certain railway models in general, in context are model railway not the most popular modeling hobby in the UK?

The point of the post is to bring debate about value for money when you buy models, be them RC or railway or any other related type

A lighthearted comparison was the intension

   



   

[Ted]

I wonder, how many man hours goes in to each loco from design to delivery to shop floor?

The materials aren't particularly expensive, certainly not in China.

RRP of a diesel is say £120-130, or approx £100 before VAT.

What's the RRP margin, 25-30% perhaps?

So Bach/Farish generate £70 in sales per diesel sold.

Profit margins are what? I heard they weren't exactly flush with cash.

So what do they actually make per sold model a few quid, perhaps.

And, what's the average volume/run on each model?

[njee20]

The point I am making is how good value the Syam is and a challenge to the value of certain to railway models in general, in context are model railway not the most popular modeling hobby in the UK?

The point of the post is to bring debate about value for money when you buy models, be them RC or railway or any other related type 

Trouble is that the challenge doesn't work; it's just a grossly flawed comparison. You talk about a wagon at £20. But they're probably only making 2,000 or so. Ever. How much do you think your helicopter would be if they only made 2,000?

[Roy L S]

I wonder, how many man hours goes in to each loco from design to delivery to shop floor?

The materials aren't particularly expensive, certainly not in China.

RRP of a diesel is say £120-130, or approx £100 before VAT.

What's the RRP margin, 25-30% perhaps?

So Bach/Farish generate £70 in sales per diesel sold.

Profit margins are what? I heard they weren't exactly flush with cash.

So what do they actually make per sold model a few quid, perhaps.

And, what's the average volume/run on each model?

Quite so Ted, consider all the fixed and variable costs throughout the production/supply chain, starting with £100k ish of tooling costs (which may or may not be amortised over more than one production run) and it will ultimately drill down to a comparatively small net margin.

Production runs can typically be measured in thousands (usually 1008 of each livery variant in Farish's case) so if we take the next shipment of J39s when it is made as an example that's 3,024 in total.

In spite of the repeated conspiracy theories, nobody is making huge bucks out of model railways, I think it was Jason Shron of Rapido who said to make a small fortune in the model railway business you first need to start off with a large one!

There is simply no point in trying to compare low volume complex manufacturing such as model railways with things like radio control helicopters which are high volume and designed to be cheap to manufacture and simple to assemble. It is like comparing apples with armadillos (if that is a more helpful analogy).

Going back to the question earlier about the most popular hobby in the UK? Certainly not model railways I doubt that's anywhere near the top, I would speculate it is probably angling...

Roy

[Rabbitaway]

Yes, only 2000 helicopters in a production run would make them significantly more expensive, the whole point of the post is about the value for money this little helicopter is in comparison to what we pay for model railways, surely this point cannot be challenged whatever the volume production reasons behind its value for money.

[Rabbitaway]

 I said modelling hobby, not general hobbies, likely to be gardening

[Dr Al]

Yes, only 2000 helicopters in a production run would make them significantly more expensive, the whole point of the post is about the value for money this little helicopter is in comparison to what we pay for model railways, surely this point cannot be challenged whatever the volume production reasons behind its value form money.

"value for money" is totally subjective.

My £100 Class 50 is infinitely better value *to me* as I'll get years of enjoyment (hopefully!) out of it - a plastic 16 quid chopper would give me 30 minutes of enjoyment and never be used again.

Value for money, that makes the 50 a lot cheaper.

The costs/volume arguments have been done to death, as this market is always low volume, so those comparisons are always totally flawed.

Cheers,
Alan

[Roy L S]

Yes, only 2000 helicopters in a production run would make them significantly more expensive, the whole point of the post is about the value for money this little helicopter is in comparison to what we pay for model railways, surely this point cannot be challenged whatever the volume production reasons behind its value form money.

Sorry but "value for money" is not the same as "cheap" which is what you seem to be suggesting...

Value is reflected in many different ways of which price is but one component.

Roy

[ntpntpntp]

"value for money" is like "worth", ie. pretty meaningless and totally subjective for the person wanting and maybe purchasing the thing in question.

To me, model railways can be good value for money with the enjoyment I get from owning and operating the models, appreciating all the intricate design and production which has gone into something made in relatively small numbers.   

I wouldn't compare one of my old cheap and cheerful Lima or Piko models to something like my hand built and custom finished CJM loco, but both may be good "value for money" *in my opinion*.  I know some others don't see value in spending £100s on a CJM.

[zwilnik]

It's an apples:oranges comparison, totally irrelevant. That is to RC helicopters what a Brio train is to N gauge.

10 seconds on Google shows RC helicopters costing between £85-£500 generally. I wonder if the RC helicopter group are thinking they should move to model railways because this is only £12:

Even comparing the Brio locos brings up my design for manufacturing point. It they were hand made for small batches rather than carefully designed to be mass manufactured in hundreds of thousands, those Brio locos would be multiple times the price too.

As with the toy helicopters, the Brio models will be designed to share a lot of standard components that can be manufactured in the millions and assembled quickly and easily by unskilled workers.