:hellosign:. I thought I would put up this post to see what people think.
Whilst looking on eBay, I came across a lovely loco of the flying Scotsman, it was a late Farish model so an absolute beauty. Whilst reading the sellers details he stated that the reason for sale was " purchased as a gift but 5 years wrong era and not suitable for layout" now I realise that you will get absolute. perfectionists out there but 5 years?
I am not building my layout to any particular era as I don't wish to deny myself the pleasure of operating any particular loco that I want to grace my collection with.
I'm not saying that to be a perfectionist to that degree is wrong, but for me, it would spoil the hobby some what. To find something you like but are unable to purchase because it's a few years out of era. That's just not me. :hmmm:
I'm sorry you see it as 'rivet counting' (a term I have grown to hate as much as 'rule one' over the years), but in some ways trying to keep to a region/era/country is a good way to prevent spending too much money and running out of space to store it (there's a lot of good stuff out there!).
If you do have too much stuff and need to thin out, how do you choose?
Describing something as being out of region/era also helps to convey the impression that there is nothing else wrong...i.e. you are not buying someone else's trouble.
To some people however it's being that focused that gives the enjoyment.
Previously I have purchased a lot of locos and stock in a magpie like fashion, however a few years back I realised that this approach was not giving me any pleasure, so I sold the stock that was out of period and location.
I would not now buy a loco that did not run on the line that I model, nor would I buy a loco or stock from outside the period that I model. For me doing so destroys the illusion that I am trying to create.
p.s. It's not my loco on ebay.
Quite a bit of my stock comes from different eras. I've decided to get around that by having a 2-era railway, one set in the early 50s, the other about 1962. The scenery will be timeless, and I can adjust the cars etc to suit, and I will be able to run whichever takes my fancy at the time. You could do the same without much difficulty even if the eras were as far apart as, say, pre-nationalisation and green diesels.
Mind you, I don't think restricting yourself to one era is necessarily a recipe for cutting down on loco purchases. I'm very fond of the BR Britannias, and there were 55 of those built... :worried:
Chris
All down to what gives you pleasure !
In my youth I saw lots of locos of ex-LNER tradition and also lots of LMS. When I came to deciding on a model aproximating a location I thought I would have to choose between them or else think of some good Rule 1 excuses :)
Then to my delight I discovered (especially in the late BR steam era ) that BR applied Rule 1 and both traditions got jumbled up at my chosen location :) yea !
My wife is not so happy though, we have not yet thought of a good excuse for GWR stuff being seen at Silloth ;)
(but shhh :) )
I would concur with the sentiment of choosing what you like and what appeals to you, not anyone else.
From the other side, I can convey that I have got rid of a lot of the older style models now - it's purely personal preference that the new tool replacements to my eye are much superior. Poole style Farish held out for a long time in my fleet, but it reached critical mass after a while where the older models were outnumbered and starting to show their age (to my eyes) and hence they were sold. Nothing physically or mechanically wrong with them, and you're sure to find others doing the same.
Does that make me a rivet counter? maybe? Do I care? No!
Do what makes you happy - that's the point of the hobby!
Cheers,
Alan
:NGaugersRule:
I have to admit I am a bit obsessive about having the right stock for the period and location (North Northumberland, July 1962). Even though the location is imaginary I still only run locos and stock that would have been seen there if the place had existed, and that includes renumbering locos so that they are from the "correct" shed (Tweedmouth, mainly). Having a Heaton-based K1 on my branch line is about as far as I am happy to stretch Rule One, but that's just me. I'm no rivet counter by any means (see photos of my K1 on another thread) but I'm trying to capture the atmosphere of a particular place and time.
I am the stuff of nightmares for rivet counters. I have changed my middle name by deed poll to "Ruleone". I likes it, I runs it. Having said that, I can narrow down my interests to "post-war, pre-privatisation, non-kettle British, German and Japanese stuff, and particularly iconic trains as per various random personal criteria, and also anything on sale cheap that I like". All good healthy fun which keeps me off the streets at night.
IMHO, anyone who models in 1:148 cannot be a rivet counter as the rolling stock is not prototypical ;) :laugh:
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2015, 03:28:24 PM
All good healthy fun which keeps me off the streets at night.
I have to fund my N gauge obsession which I find keeps me
on the streets at night :-[ ;)
I stopped rivet counting some time ago , now I check for slag on bad welding :D
Quote from: newportnobby on July 27, 2015, 03:37:45 PM
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2015, 03:28:24 PM
All good healthy fun which keeps me off the streets at night.
on the streets at night :-[ ;)
Scary !
When yer eyes get to my age a scanning electron microscope is needed to see 'em and I cant afford one of them (and I'm not just talkng about the rivets ;) ! )
Go on then, Pengi, I'll ask .....................
What does your comment mean?
Adrian
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2015, 03:28:24 PM
I am the stuff of nightmares for rivet counters. I have changed my middle name by deed poll to "Ruleone". I likes it, I runs it. Having said that, I can narrow down my interests to "post-war, pre-privatisation, non-kettle British, German and Japanese stuff, and particularly iconic trains as per various random personal criteria, and also anything on sale cheap that I like". All good healthy fun which keeps me off the streets at night.
The above statement more or less covers my attitude to railway modelling but I tend to go for anything british that takes my fancy and is of course a bargain ;)
Quote from: Adrian on July 27, 2015, 04:06:05 PM
Go on then, Pengi, I'll ask .....................
What does your comment mean?
Adrian
Here is Wikipedia's explanation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_N_gauge) ;)
That's very sharp of you Pengi - very well spotted!
Sent me scurrying for my calculator ...................
I run on track set to 9.42mm gauge (adjusted to cope with N gauge wheels in the critical areas of pointwork) so I'm a bit closer at 1:152.
But you're still right, there is a mismatch :doh:
Hmmm .......... very good Pengi
Adrian
I have the same attitude as Ditape and am always on the look out for bargains. What I do try to do is get suitable coaches and wagons to match my loco's so hopefully the actual trains are prototypical.
I get round the wide variety of rolling stock by saying I'm modeling a preserved railway not that it's much of a problem here as rivet counters are very rare indeed.
We run a glorious mixture of stock on our club layout the only rule is that it must be N gauge :D
Quote from: Adrian on July 27, 2015, 05:12:49 PM
That's very sharp of you Pengi - very well spotted!
Sent me scurrying for my calculator ...................
I run on track set to 9.42mm gauge (adjusted to cope with N gauge wheels in the critical areas of pointwork) so I'm a bit closer at 1:152.
But you're still right, there is a mismatch :doh:
Hmmm .......... very good Pengi
Adrian
I would not be accepted to join the Distinguished Order of Rivet Counters as i run 1:160, 1:148 and also 1:150 - all at the same time :laugh: :oopssign:
What sometimes gives me pause for thought is grass!
Why do we model it the way we do? Looking out of the window, just now, I can make out the detail close to but not further off in the garden.
So, from normal viewing distance, should we really see anything other than green hues etc etc on a layout?
How big is a rivet anyhow? Are they visible at the distances we're talking about?
Adrian
All the rivets on my models are fake. None of them actually hold two bits of metal together. Does this mean they don't count?
Not yet got around to rivet counting as i am still counting the grains of ballast to ensure there are no more than 200 to the square inch...would welcome someone calculating if this is the correct scale size? :confused2:
I cant see a problem with wishing to do things as right as one can make them.
Likewise if its your thing just to have a model railway...
If it makes you happy its all good stuff aint it :)
I like things to be pretty right, other wise I'm not making a time and place, Im just making a train set - not that that is a bad thing , its just not what I want to do :)
Quote from: sparky on July 27, 2015, 09:03:55 PM
Not yet got around to rivet counting as i am still counting the grains of ballast to ensure there are no more than 200 to the square inch...would welcome someone calculating if this is the correct scale size? :confused2:
Ballast should pass through a 3 inch grid in one plane
sorry I know that, but getting things right isnt a bad thing ;)
We're all on a hiding to nothing with this rivet counting thing and getting overly uptight trying to get things as right as possible. I have never seen an N gauge diorama that could be mistaken for the real thing when it comes down to the nitty gritty - trees, grass, houses etc.. I'm happy with the objective of trying to create an overall impression of a scene which is what N scale (or N gauge for UK enthusiasts) is particularly good at. Attention to detail is great, but more attention to detail is not necessarily better.
As for era and railway modelled, I'm pretty eclectic. I've got North American rolling stock and locos that span 50 years, from 4 different railways (Canadian Pacific, British Columbia Railway, Union Pacific, and Santa Fe) as well as a modest amount of British outline from the 60s (4 locos + wagons +carriages). Don't run all the different eras and railways together though. I'm afraid that one day in a red wine haze I'll order a black and red German steam locomotive which will open up more spending opportunities which is the last thing I need.
Webbo
I set myself soft targets - a decade and a city - and want to go further with this as time goes by. It helps me focus and keeps me coming back to the layout ... and saves money.
If however I decided, tonight, that I was going to do one particular part of the real railway, in one particular year, the amount of research, scratch building, renumbering and repainting involved would put a stop to things instantly. Going for realism should be an interesting challenge rather than a graded exercise?
Some people can get N gauge spot on for time and place
exhibit A
http://small-but-perfectly-formed.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://small-but-perfectly-formed.blogspot.co.uk/)
I think that is marvelous :)
Creating an overall impression (as Webbo suggests) is , to me, the single most important part of railway modelling. I want my scenes to look reasonably realistic without being perfect and to create an image of what a scene might have looked like.
I see many layouts at exhibitions which are truly fantastic, technically brilliant and pretty much perfect in every detail but they often lack that "lived-in" feel and appear cold and sterile. To me it is important for a layout to look alive - no matter if some of the detail is far from perfect and doesn't quite fit the era.
Oh, by the way, how many fence posts per yard do I need for the edge of a field ? :P
Quote from: Webbo on July 28, 2015, 01:55:59 AM
As for era and railway modelled, I'm pretty eclectic. I've got North American rolling stock and locos that span 50 years, from 4 different railways (Canadian Pacific, British Columbia Railway, Union Pacific, and Santa Fe) as well as a modest amount of British outline from the 60s (4 locos + wagons +carriages). Don't run all the different eras and railways together though. I'm afraid that one day in a red wine haze I'll order a black and red German steam locomotive which will open up more spending opportunities which is the last thing I need.
Webbo
Oh. That black and red german steam, you know you want to, it doesn't take much wine! Come join us in the dark world of running whatever the blazes you like .... We have cookies!
G
Port Perran you have just hit the nail on the head those are exactly the thoughts I have on model railways . I just love watching my trains going through the country side . While it's also nice to see these very highly detailed layouts with every thing looking perfect some people would be put off building a railway layout thinking they wouldn't be able to make it so perfect and so miss out on this wonderfully relaxing hobby.
My late mate Cyril and I went to Risborough show at Stoke Mandevile one year he wanted to see a layout in one of the railway magazines the detail was absolutely brilliant it was about 30 ft long and was a seaside village BUT nothing was moving then some ding ding noises an engine moved about a yard then nothing a few minutes later dong dong and the engine moved into the station then nothing this was repeated several times Cyril then asked the operator when the train was departing ,the answer was in about ten minutes as they ran to the correct timetable .Cyril said he was very annoyed that we had travelled to see this layout payed good money to go in just to see a man reading a magazine and hear some bells ringing now and thenthe operator just said tough luck that how the layout ran.
Bob
Quote from: JasonBz on July 28, 2015, 07:21:17 AM
Some people can get N gauge spot on for time and place
exhibit A
http://small-but-perfectly-formed.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://small-but-perfectly-formed.blogspot.co.uk/)
I think that is marvelous :)
Can't argue with that. I couldn't build anything that good to save my life. Fortunately, I'm not a perfectionist, so I don't feel the need to chuck my efforts in the bin...
Chris
Quote from: grumbeast on July 28, 2015, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: Webbo on July 28, 2015, 01:55:59 AM
As for era and railway modelled, I'm pretty eclectic. I've got North American rolling stock and locos that span 50 years, from 4 different railways (Canadian Pacific, British Columbia Railway, Union Pacific, and Santa Fe) as well as a modest amount of British outline from the 60s (4 locos + wagons +carriages). Don't run all the different eras and railways together though. I'm afraid that one day in a red wine haze I'll order a black and red German steam locomotive which will open up more spending opportunities which is the last thing I need.
Webbo
Oh. That black and red german steam, you know you want to, it doesn't take much wine! Come join us in the dark world of running whatever the blazes you like .... We have cookies!
G
I know I do. I've just been delivered a case of red so it might not be very long. I'm already in the dark world so it's really only a question of which level I'm on.
Webbo
:hellosign:While i really appreciate the Super detailed layouts I personally am rule ONE every time. Everyone to their own and most importantly enjoy. :NGaugersRule:
regards Derek.
In the end, taking everything into consideration, looking
at it from both ends, weighing things up, does any one
give a monkeys ?
Only if they're the correct monkeys for the locale. For a UK prototype, the only way you could justify any monkeys is when modelling a zoo, or possibly a troupe which has escaped from a circus.
Quote from: Agrippa on July 28, 2015, 11:46:58 PM
In the end, taking everything into consideration, looking
at it from both ends, weighing things up, does any one
give a monkeys ?
http://youtu.be/AXqvLZurm3o (http://youtu.be/AXqvLZurm3o)
...who cares at the end of the day as long as it's taken in properly in context.
Quote from: railsquid on July 29, 2015, 12:00:41 AMpossibly a troupe which has escaped
Might be best if we kept the occasional errant toupé out of this :) ?
Peng
Re: 'IMHO, anyone who models in 1:148 cannot be a rivet counter as the rolling stock is not prototypical'
OK, I'll bite. I actually DO model in 1:148, and I am a FREELANCE N-scale modeller who uses 1:148 as the ruling scale. As the membership knows, I run UK, US/Continental European, Japanese and Australian N-scale stock to create what is officially known as NZN-Freelance.
On the basis if the above, would you care to justify your comment, specifically the bit about 1:148 'NOT BEING PROTOTYPICAL', since in my case it very definitely is, and is the 'unifying factor' which keeps everything together. :) :)
Thanks.
Quote from: Komata on July 29, 2015, 02:06:20 AM
what is officially known as NZN-Freelance.
Sounds interesting
dont cry in the wilderness
, linkys pse :) :) :)
MalcolmAL
Don't worry, I 'aint :) Just asking, 'cos the statement was so very broad. :) :)
Thanks for the response BTW
Quote from: Komata on July 29, 2015, 02:20:23 AM
MalcolmAL
Don't worry, I 'aint :) Just asking, 'cos the statement was so very broad. :) :)
Thanks for the response BTW
Oh ! So I have to go
(walt)its off to work we go he ho heh ho(/disney)
oh look, a google (" NZN-Freelance ") later :
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=18209.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=18209.0)
well well ! :)
"Note: This will be necessarily a long post)"
yup !
interesting tho'
thanks for the stirrr
MalcolmAL
So now you know...!! Glad you enjoyed the read, and I'm sure you can see why, in response to Pingi's statement, one has to ask... :)
Stirrer? Me? never...
I think there is a number of unspoken, but generally accepted, assumptions in Pengi's post. If you read it as 'Anyone modelling UK Standard gauge at 1:148 and using 9mm track is unprototypical' then it is true.
However, anyone doing freelance modelling, not based on a prototype, cannot be prototypical, even if the scale is entirely accurate. QED. :D
This makes about 100% of all layouts unprototypical, as even those layouts based on an actual location are usually compromised with selective compression, if not omissions. :smiley-laughing:
Now, back to the planning...
Here is my two pence...
The item mentioned in the opening post was purchased as a gift. Perhaps from someone who knew the individual and cared enough to put some thought into treating this person to a relatively expensive item...we aren't talking a box of choc here from Thorntons are we?
So imagine the conversation when the topic of selling it comes up with the reasons outlined...wow...I bet that made for a frosty atmosphere!
"Rivet counting" or "Rule One"...nobody is harmed and both approaches surely generate a joy and fondness for the hobby?
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:
This is a topic that always generates great debate and I think we are in danger of going round in circles
It all depends what you want your model railway to be and what compromises are acceptable in the search for accuracy and that, of course, will vary from person to person.
Therefore this topic is now locked :locked:
Quote from: Ditape on July 27, 2015, 04:56:23 PM
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2015, 03:28:24 PM
I am the stuff of nightmares for rivet counters. I have changed my middle name by deed poll to "Ruleone". I likes it, I runs it. Having said that, I can narrow down my interests to "post-war, pre-privatisation, non-kettle British, German and Japanese stuff, and particularly iconic trains as per various random personal criteria, and also anything on sale cheap that I like". All good healthy fun which keeps me off the streets at night.
The above statement more or less covers my attitude to railway modelling but I tend to go for anything british that takes my fancy and is of course a bargain ;)
That is also where i sit.
I thought this was locked?
not strong enough rivets on the clasp? :S
They thought this thread was locked . . . it is now ;)
(http://www.sprintexnet.co.uk/Images/locked.gif)
Paul