Decoder sockets in coaches is 100% a step too far IMO. If people really want that they can wire them in.

IMO, if people want that, they can ask for sockets to be included in the specification too, which is the whole point in not having to wire them in, for the same reason sockets have become standard in locos and multiple units.

To be fair to Kato their approach is probably quite elegant there. Drop in decoders for those who want them.

Also interesting insofar as they do it backward - lights are fitted but the circuitry isn't.

My Fort William set found its way to Germany.
The coaches look very good.
I also found that the drag is different on different types of coaches. My CLUB was free running, SEAT was not too bad. SLED and SLEP, however, would barely move. I removed the wheelsets and clipped them back in, which helped (although they are not as free-running as other coaches). My 92 is quite happy with that (admittedly rather short) train.

Concerning lights, I have to say that I rather like lit coaches. A passenger train with interior lighting trundling through the landscape at dusk is a sight I very much enjoy.
That being said, it is nothing I absolutely have to have in a coach.
Of the options given above, I would probably choose D, then C.



Best,
Michael

Yes, Kato have an interesting design and they don't have to be custom wired, at least the more recent designs.

Quote from: Brian-1c on October 03, 2023, 05:09:42 PMYes, Kato have an interesting design and they don't have to be custom wired, at least the more recent designs.

I can fit lights to a full 2+8 double deck Kato TGV in less than half an hour. Insert two contacts to connect to the bogie and to these clip in the circuit board which includes the LED. The light diffuser is already on board. Small capacitor on the circuit board means operation is flicker free and Kato suggest that lights can remain on during a station stop by careful use of the trainset controller not turned down fully to 0 volts. I must confess that I use a Hong Kong look-alike circuit board at about one quarter of the Kato price but with the same functionality.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 03, 2023, 05:19:02 PM

Quote from: Brian-1c on October 03, 2023, 05:09:42 PMYes, Kato have an interesting design and they don't have to be custom wired, at least the more recent designs.

I can fit lights to a full 2+8 double deck Kato TGV in less than half an hour. Insert two contacts to connect to the bogie and to these clip in the circuit board which includes the LED. The light diffuser is already on board. Small capacitor on the circuit board means operation is flicker free and Kato suggest that lights can remain on during a station stop by careful use of the trainset controller not turned down fully to 0 volts. I must confess that I use a Hong Kong look-alike circuit board at about one quarter of the Kato price but with the same functionality.

Any chance of a link to these HK controllers?

Quote from: Railwaygun on October 03, 2023, 05:50:04 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 03, 2023, 05:19:02 PM

Quote from: Brian-1c on October 03, 2023, 05:09:42 PMYes, Kato have an interesting design and they don't have to be custom wired, at least the more recent designs.

I can fit lights to a full 2+8 double deck Kato TGV in less than half an hour. Insert two contacts to connect to the bogie and to these clip in the circuit board which includes the LED. The light diffuser is already on board. Small capacitor on the circuit board means operation is flicker free and Kato suggest that lights can remain on during a station stop by careful use of the trainset controller not turned down fully to 0 volts. I must confess that I use a Hong Kong look-alike circuit board at about one quarter of the Kato price but with the same functionality.

Any chance of a link to these HK controllers?

There is a choice of Kato compatible lighting systems here:-

https://www.hktilc.com/#!

This is the one I use in TGV Duplex and UK Class 800, at about £3 each. Choice of warmth of light. About half the price of Kato now.


https://www.hktilc.com/product/X-Type-%E6%81%92%E5%85%89%E6%8A%97%E9%96%83%E5%9E%8BLED%E5%AE%A4%E5%85%A7%E7%87%88-X-Type-Anti-flaching-LED-Light-for-kato-2pc-TRTixtBscvxjNtqK

To answer @njee20 's question about the Dellner couplings.
I found that with 5 coaches on they would uncouple on the tightest curve on my layout, approx 20" !
I swapped the Dellners in and the uncoupling stopped!

However fitting the Dellners required a bit of patience and some tweezers, and there is a click when they couple together.

Regards,

John P

Quote from: jpendle on October 03, 2023, 06:29:29 PMTo answer @njee20 's question about the Dellner couplings.
I found that with 5 coaches on they would uncouple on the tightest curve on my layout, approx 20" !
I swapped the Dellners in and the uncoupling stopped!

However fitting the Dellners required a bit of patience and some tweezers, and there is a click when they couple together.

Regards,

John P

thanks for that John, will have a go tomorrow, also have some spare Hunt couplings which I plan on trying.

Quote from: Roy L S on October 03, 2023, 11:44:31 AM

Quote from: Steven B on October 03, 2023, 09:29:43 AMFrom what has been said here and elsewhere, Revolution saw no issues with the free-running of the Mk5s on their test samples. It remains to be seen if the problem's due to a change at the factory (like the Rapido Conflats) or down to the bogies not being put together properly.

How much of the problems are down to the electrical pick-up and how much is due to the internal bearings remains to be seen. Internal bearings are hard to do. Neither Farish or Dapols class 220 were particularly free running.


What might be worth further discussion given the problems with the lighting limitations on DC is whether as modellers it's something we want. Personally I don't what interior lighting and would either remove it or permanently switch it off. Dapol's approach of light bars available as a separate item is probably the best solution for most.

I can see several different approaches, the question is are there any others and which would we as modellers prefer?

A. factory fitted lights with magnetic wands - current Revolution and Rapido approach but need turning off again every time power is reapplied on DC.

B. Push the boundary further - fit the magnet controlled lights but power from a battery so they don't turn off when track power is removed. Recharging from the track would be a bonus.

C. Factory fitted lights with switches to turn lights on and off, either needs roof removing or vehicle lifting from track to access switches that might compromise roof or underframe detail.

D. Don't fit lighting - add the pick-ups but sell us light bars as optional extras

E. Don't fit lighting, don't fit pick-ups.


SB

I will firstly admit to having no skin in the game as far as these particular coaches are concerned and on the plus side I do admire the level of detail and finish shown on the pictures I have seen.

In terms of the options above, as a preference I am firmly in the "E" category personally, as I see it most of us run our trains in conditions where we want to see them, and this involves the whole layout being lit in some way to represent daylight, so the need for lights in coaches will in most cases be limited. I do not want to pay extra for all the paraphernalia involved in lighting coaches for something I will not use. In this respect for me Farish have it right, producing quality models without such gimmicks.

The above is just my opinion and I accept there will nonetheless be those who do want them, and so I would regard option "D" as an acceptable compromise so long as in doing so the running quality of models were not negatively impacted. This appears easy enough to achieve with outside bearings using split insulated pinpoint axles, but I am far from convinced it can achieved with inside bearings, where the bearing surface has to be sufficiently large to afford reliable current transfer. Inevitably even the most perfect bearing surface if it is large will create more friction, and when the surface (and/or other factors) are less than perfect (as they will be in the world of mass production inevitably) people will get the results being witnessed with these Mk5 coaches, where remarkably some are reporting even the four coach Fort William set is a struggle for some otherwise quite competent locos.

On the not so positive side I have a couple of other observations with regard to this specific matter. Firstly, I am somewhat surprised from seeing posts on forums that people appear to be encouraged to try and fix the coaches with problems themselves rather than the default being to return them (as is of course their right under consumer law if an item isn't fit for purpose). Secondly, if the problem is as widespread as it appears would it not be sensible to at least have a pause on shipping further coaches out to customers/retailers until remaining models have been checked and confirmed to be OK (or in the worst case not)? I do appreciate people will have been looking forward to receiving their coaches but clearly from what we are seeing already, keen anticipation has in many cases turned into disappointment and surely knowing that the "pause" button needs to be hit?

I do appreciate that if there wasn't a perceived demand for these kind of features they wouldn't be attempted, and the challenges both technical and logistical, of producing such complex models to a certain price-point should not be underestimated. However against that I do think the inherent risk of pushing boundaries too far is what is being seen here, and I would reflect that without the lighting feature the coaches would still very likely have been extremely well received but minus the headaches and subsequent disappointment.

Roy

I agree with you entirely, Roy. This is my 3rd purchase from Revolution and the 3rd negative experience.  My first was with a DB Class 92 which suffered manufacturing defects on the electronics out of the box, the second was draggy biomass wagons that have since much improved (although no doubt added needless strain to the loco) and now this quite significant issue.
I purchased the two Inverness packs, paying the £160.83 deposit & shipping in Nov 2021, almost 2 years later the items arrive and of 8 carriages 1 ran well out of the box.  To say that I was not best pleased, after paying a further €107 for import dues, that a total spend of €417 results in this to then be told by Revolution 'refer to our MK5 page for solutions' adds considerable insult to financial injury.
It is not by any imaginable reason acceptable to ask modellers, many of whom no doubt will have purchased a 16 carriage rake, to 'have a go and put our mistake right for us'. It highlights a number of not insignificant shortcomings but especially in the proving out of design through manufacturability and the extent of quality controls throughout the entire process (I have spent enough time in China brining complex projects to launch to understand the challenges).

The response from Revolution that "our samples ran well" is an example of manufacturing naivety in the extreme - do they seriously think that the manufacturer would send them unacceptable final samples?  Did they pull sets at random from the delivery and inspect and check run-ability? When made aware (very early) by many customers that these carriages were "a bit of a drag" (seriously, this is funny?) other than pop up a webpage with things that 'might' help without having identified actual root cause(s) but continue to despatch orders is frankly not the hallmark of a Quality supplier.

No, this experience is the last straw for me as regards Revolution.  I had a Caledonian liveried 92 (the 92's I understand also suffer from motor burn-out) on the way to me but I stopped it at Customs and it has been returned to them, both packs of MK5's will be winging their way back to them when I return home from business.

I, like many others, will have welcomed a new manufacturer to the market, stunning reproductions at a reasonable price, but this experience is 3 from 3 too many so it's back to Kato, Dapol and Farish - the latter 2 not hassle-free but noticeably far more reliable and customer centric.

I have no interest in these models but have a suggestion to make which may/may not be viable as I could be talking out of my rear.
When Rapido first introduced their 'Easy Peasy' light bars with the 'magic wand' (presumably the same is used in their class 28 Co-Bo), the late Scotsoft (John) suggested maybe fixing the magnet above the entrances and exits from fiddle yards to turn lighting on/off.
Just chucking this out there, but it could be tosh

It is a valid suggestion @Newportnobby but such a set-up would turn off all the lights. There are three wand-activated switches along the length of the roof which control tail lights end 1, saloon lights, tail lights end 2. So the effect of an overhead magnet would be to turn them all off instead of leaving all saloon lights and the tail lights on the final car on. If you are turning off all the lights you may as well disconnect them anyway which is where I am going. With the layout having a main station with overall roof and overhead wires (eventually), I do not have the dexterity to turn off selected lights on a moving train in the narrow gap between the car roofs and the overhead wire every time power is applied to the track.

Just to further deepen the hole I may have dug, it's reported higher in the thread that as soon as the train is on the move all the lights come on. Would a magnet above the exit of the fiddle yard then turn them all off, leaving you to just use a wand to turn on the tail lamp of the last coach. It won't suit everyone, obviously, but might make life easier for some

Good solution @Newportnobby . Exactly the "all off" initial configuration which would have made the stock usable without extra kit. Still not ideal with overhead wires, of course, because the magnet needs to very close to roof level so would take out any passing pantograph.

I am still unclear as to whether RevolutioN was offered an "all lights off" start up option but rejected it. I guess we will never know.