A British domestic train from Kato? 800 series available from May 2021

[njee20]

They also eschew standards like native DCC compatibility, NEM couplings, RP25 wheelsets which many may not care about, but they all serve to keep cost down.

To be fair, I doubt any of these has a big impact on costs.

...

Most Kato units & locos have PCBs fitted - designing and making one that's DCC compatible is pennies more than a plain DC one.

But it becomes a design consideration as well. If you completely control the dimensions of the PCB then you can re-use that PCB across models (eg the Eurostar and the F7 having the same PCB), becuase you don't care about needing to ensure you adhere to a set of external standards you don't control re decoder dimensions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that adding a 6-pin socket would add £50 per model, but it'll definitely be a factor.

Completely agree with you on cab/interior lights though, not needed!

[Paul J]

There is the beginning of a move away from Chinese manufacturing, which will only increase either as they develop further (with further increases in labour costs) or move into geo-political conflict with the West. It is not a matter of aspiration but market forces.

A number of European manufacturers now use Vietnam or Eastern Europe, the latter of which greatly reduces supply chain risk. Either way, it would be naïve to imagine the existing production arrangements will last forever, any more than Liverpool, Margate or Poole did.

Don't imagine that the price rises for high spec models are over yet.

I don't want to get combative about this, but this could be the next foot to drop on the hobby. I model European N, so my mind is comparing items such as Kato ICE4s to Fleischmann or Arnold ICE1s or ICE3s. Revolution or Accurascale have a marketing strategy that reduces risk for volume and margin (reducing the risk of unsold stock and leveraging volume with production runs).

Without that, the Pendolino would be much more than £400. The last run of Arnold ICE3 was RRP £500 for eight cars. An Arnold ETR610/RABe 503 is about the price of a Pendolino just for a 4 car base set.

[njee20]

No, I agree, the prices will of course continue rising, but I'm ok with where the prices are (and where they're heading). If you don't want super detailed stuff there are older models around, with a buoyant second hand market. I don't want Kato's "lower cost, lower detail" approach to be the norm. YMMV. Reminds me, I wonder if I can get a replacement windscreen for my 800 on this production run, as one fell out of mine, not clip together enough! 

[Paul J]

I can afford most of what I like, but lots of people can't. I would rather have a wider hobby than it become a rich person's toy like before World War 2.

At a certain point, lower volumes caused by price hikes causing further hikes to boost margins could cause a doom loop.

It is particularly a problem in the UK which outside of the South East is poorer than most of western Europe.

[Spanners70]

Wonder if any manufacturers will do any of the other 800 series on the different liveries

[woodbury22uk]

Wonder if any manufacturers will do any of the other 800 series on the different liveries

0% chance. Kato has the market to itself. Nobody would risk tooling a multi-car train when Kato could just tweak theirs.

[woodbury22uk]

Gaugemaster have published some Kato photos of the new coaches for the 9 car sets.

https://mailchi.mp/gaugemaster/kato-release-new-images-for-9-car-class-800?e=dd155d2c05

[Steven B]

Gaugemaster have published some Kato photos of the new coaches for the 9 car sets.

https://mailchi.mp/gaugemaster/kato-release-new-images-for-9-car-class-800?e=dd155d2c05

That link's from their newsletter and didn't open for me. The news item on their website should work:

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/news/article/view/id/1731/

It'll be interesting to see how the inside bearings compare to Revolution's Mk5s bogies.

Steven B

[njee20]

Kato have form on the inside bearings - their Amfleet coaches roll very well. Their approach has been rather different to Farish (on the Voyager)/Revolution in that they use a 'clamshell' type design, which retains the axle, rather than having the wheelset clip in to a moulded part of the bogie.



Kato -> Farish -> Dapol.

Given it's only 4 bogies on a 9-car train I'm sure they'll be great.

[Chris Morris]

No, I agree, the prices will of course continue rising, but I'm ok with where the prices are (and where they're heading). If you don't want super detailed stuff there are older models around, with a buoyant second hand market. I don't want Kato's "lower cost, lower detail" approach to be the norm. YMMV. Reminds me, I wonder if I can get a replacement windscreen for my 800 on this production run, as one fell out of mine, not clip together enough! 

I'm very happy with Kato's lower cost, lower detail approach. To my mind the older Farish models are not great and I wouldn't want to own most of them, In fact I haven't bought any, except for a couple of very cheap 158s. On the other hand I rate the Kato 800 as a wonderful model. How do I justify that? Well firstly it just looks right running along; it captures the look of the real thing very well indeed. The detail is good enough for when it is in motion. Yes the connectors between coaches are non existent and the connector boxes are very poor.  I painted my connector boxes black which I think makes for a worthwhile improvement. The worst part about the Kato 800 is the bright white roof and corridor ends. I have toned these down with a bit of weathering and I think that is enough to reduce it's toy like look and make it more of a convincing model. I do the same with pretty much every other piece of stock. I like to get the whole look right and to me a slightly weathered roof is more important than the nth degree of detail. The Kato 800 is a good, lively runner and stays on the track extremely well which is another strong point in its favour. On the other hand neither of my 800s are the best at really really smooth stops and starts. They are perfectly acceptable but I do have a number of Farish and Dapol that are just a little bit better. I would prefer lower gearing on the 800 but I can see why giving it a high top speed is a good thing for such a model. I also love the way two can be joined together to make a 5+5 unit.

[ntpntpntp]

... neither of my 800s are the best at really really smooth stops and starts. They are perfectly acceptable but I do have a number of Farish and Dapol that are just a little bit better.

Have you tried them on a Kato SX controller?  My 800 came with one, and I have to say it does match Kato mechanisms very well, in fact it gives great results with just about everything old and new that I've tried so far.   

I am tempted to investigate converting a couple of SXs to handheld units for exhibition use, taking over from my old KPC controllers which whilst great do cause one or two of the modern far east mechanisms in my collection to jerk a bit.

[Chris Morris]

I reckon for £350 total outlay this sight is a bargain.

[njee20]

I have two SX controllers on my son's layout and I agree they're very good controllers actually. The 800 is definitely geared for top speed over slow speed acceleration.

To be clear, I have no specific issue with the 800, I've gone one, but I don't want the industry as a whole to push towards a "lower detail, lower cost" angle.

[Steven B]

The RRP of Farish's latest run of the old Poole era Mk3 shows low detail does not equal low cost!

Kato win the price war because of the volume they produce (10x per batch over Farish/Dapol), simplified construction (few screws) and simplified livery application.


Steven B

[njee20]

Yes, of course. I think Farish's prices can be artificially inflated though. When Dapol re-run older models they tend to keep the pricing lower, to reflect amortised tooling costs or whatever. Hence new-run 66s are cheaper than 68s or 50s or whatever. Farish don't do this - they tend to align prices so that (within reason) coaches are £x, and locos are £y. Hence we see things like the 170 at a price to make ones eyes water given it's a 15 year old model, but it roughly keeps step with the 158.