N Gauge Forum

Have I missed something, but Hattons are not showing any new Farish stock since Christmas, whereas Rails are happily selling new stock.
Have Hattons had a bust up with the Barwell boys and come off worst?

Bob

There has been a thread discussion about it. Something to do with Hattons now being considered a manufacturer not just a shop?  I've not bothered following it, as continental is my thing.

I'm aware of that thread, but I dont think it discusses any implications of them not being able to sell Farish (or Bachmann, for that matter).
I just thought it odd that I couldn't get new releases from Hattons but I can from other vendors...

Its also quite odd as Rails commission their own stuff, Kernow their own stuff (including not through Bachmann), but that hasn't stopped them selling Bachmann/Farish products.

Bob

Yep, Hatton's haven't had any new Bachmann stock for 6 months. They sent out announcements for the 2019 range, so they obviously foresee it being resolved, but they're not the place to get your Farish stock at the moment!

I know when the Farish Class 66 evening Star came out last year, although I had it on order with Hattons, everyone else had it in stock well before Hattons did.  I ended up cancelling with Hattons and getting it elsewhere.  I still have a few on order but as they will not see the light of day this year I will hold back before I cancel the lot.

Paul

Mmm, I know of a number of models which have come and gone with Hatton's having not received stock. Not ideal if you're actively following availability, I imagine a number of people have ended up missing out on things.

I had quite a few MK2 coaches pre ordered with Hatton's but as it looked unlikely that first class corridor ones (the first of a fairly large amount) weren't going to come from there I transferred my pre orders to Rails. This is costing them some money so you would hope that they can sort it out.
Cheers Colin

just went on 'chat' to Hattons, their response is that they are still stocking new releases 'but there has been a slight delay'.
unable to give any date when deliveries will restart, but say pre-orders will be honoured.

make of that what you will  :confused1:

I struggle to believe that, if Bachmann don't have stock then they won't be getting any stock to satisfy the pre-orders once this is resolved. I don't believe for a second Bachmann have somehow 'held back' the  Hatton's allocation, so I call that bobbins. They're my chosen retailer, but no way would I be using them for any pre-orders at the moment (of stuff due imminently at least).

Perhaps they have breached the "understanding" with Bachmann about restrictions to discounting, and they are being taught a lesson! A search of "new stock" shows the latest Branchline items arrived at the end of November, and Farish mid October.   :confused1:

It isn't a personal problem at present, because I'm not expecting anything of interest to me until mid-year. :hmmm:

Email response just received from Hattons:

I am sorry that we have not released any solid information regarding the delay with receiving stock from Bachmann. We do value our customers and hate to keep information from you but this is due to ongoing legal discussions in which we can't disclose information until it has been resolved.

We are in talks with Bachmann at the moment and I believe it will be coming to a resolution within the next couple of weeks. Bachmann do have our allocation of stock set aside for us so preorders will be honoured once the stock reaches us.

.... looks promising!

Sounds similar to my local aero modelling shop, they were no longer getting Eflight products from Horizon Hobby, including spares to repair the unscheduled arrivals. A trade stand at one of the shows explained that Horizon had identified a number of serial discounters and refused to deal with them any more, at the same time they hiked the retail price by 20-30%. I've now stopped buying Horizon products and I'm in the process of getting rid of the Spektrum radio gear as well.

Gary

Quote from: Stuart Down Under on January 23, 2019, 09:24:24 AM
Perhaps they have breached the "understanding" with Bachmann about restrictions to discounting, and they are being taught a lesson! A search of "new stock" shows the latest Branchline items arrived at the end of November, and Farish mid October.   :confused1:

For "understanding" read "cartel" as there is an equivalent Dapol understanding too. Dapol new stock cannot be discounted below 15% either.

Rails cheat the understanding by offering free postage on new locos, so I dont understand why they have picked on Hattons in particular. I've not seen Hattons (or indeed any supplier) being profligate with any discounts on new stock over the 15% understanding. This forum would have noticed and told the rest of us.

Hi

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/resale-price-maintenance-information-for-businesses (https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/resale-price-maintenance-information-for-businesses)

Cheers

Paul

very interesting, I would read that as saying that a retailer could not discount by more than 15% would be illegal.
but then I'm a human being, not a lawyer  :laugh:

I think the point about retail pricing was aired when Bachmann and Dapol(?) first started restricting discounts for a new product for a limited period - according to: https://www.out-law.com/en/topics/eu--competition/competition/recommending-and-agreeing-retail-prices-competition-law-puts-limits-on-how-far-you-can-go/ (https://www.out-law.com/en/topics/eu--competition/competition/recommending-and-agreeing-retail-prices-competition-law-puts-limits-on-how-far-you-can-go/)

"where a manufacturer introduces a new product, RPM may be permitted for an introductory period where it provides retailers with the means and incentives to increase promotional efforts and expand overall demand for the product, so making the entry a success;"

So in certain circumstances it could be legal to restrict discounts, but as with many things it depends on legal interpretation.

Bachmann's T&C for wholesale are on their website and include such a limited restriction (and possibly the answer to the Hattons situation in a different section on Bachmann's rights to decide who they supply to).

I doubt that this is an easy situation for either parties.

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: red_death on January 23, 2019, 01:43:29 PM
I think the point about retail pricing was aired when Bachmann and Dapol(?) first started restricting discounts for a new product for a limited period

In short; it is permissible for the manufacturer to specify retail price limits (maximum and/or minimum) provided:

1. It is time limited.
2. Non-discriminatory (applies equally to all retailers).
3. They do not themselves sell direct to consumers at a price outside those limits.

It's also common practice in the motor trade for new models. The usual work around is to sell at the specified price with 'enhancements' - throw in a years' insurance/6 months road tax/a 'free' tank of fuel etc...

Exemptions to UK competition law are not well defined. Are you citing case law or just industry practice that has escaped CMA scrutiny?

Quote from: red_death on January 23, 2019, 01:43:29 PM
"where a manufacturer introduces a new product, RPM may be permitted for an introductory period where it provides retailers with the means and incentives to increase promotional efforts and expand overall demand for the product, so making the entry a success;"

But that is qualified with "Nevertheless, as an exception, it may be possible to justify RPM in certain circumstances, if it would lead to benefits for consumers"

I do not think that restricting retailers to a maximum 15% is in the consumers interest.

Sorry I'm in shock just seen Farish Stanier coaches are now over £30

Quote from: nookfield on January 23, 2019, 09:13:23 PM

Quote from: red_death on January 23, 2019, 01:43:29 PM
"where a manufacturer introduces a new product, RPM may be permitted for an introductory period where it provides retailers with the means and incentives to increase promotional efforts and expand overall demand for the product, so making the entry a success;"

But that is qualified with "Nevertheless, as an exception, it may be possible to justify RPM in certain circumstances, if it would lead to benefits for consumers"

I do not think that restricting retailers to a maximum 15% is in the consumers interest.

You might not, but the argument from the Outlaw website is that it can be deemed to be beneficial if it allows manufacturers to bring to market a new product - the implication being that without the possibility to restrict discounts the product might/would not have been brought to market and that the consumer benefits from increased choice in the market.

As I said I think this has been well-aired and nothing is new about this and it getting well off the original topic.

Revolution might be able to argue that exemption as a new entrant to retail, but not Farish. So Farish would be on shaky legal ground if they are attempting to enforce discount restrictions, especially with their largest retailer.

The link I provided doesn't refer to new company entrants, but new product entrants to the market.

Cheers, Mike

Quite so. My point was that as a new entrant Revolution could conceivably argue that discount restrictions were necessary to secure a retail dealer network. But the exemptions are narrowly cast (see link) and would pretty clearly apply to few if any new products from an established supplier like Farish.

http://www.agentlaw.co.uk/site/briefing_notes/resale-price-maintenance-can-be-lawful (http://www.agentlaw.co.uk/site/briefing_notes/resale-price-maintenance-can-be-lawful)

The CMA appears insufficiently resourced to investigate minor competition issues like this so we may never find out.

I thought the Hatton's issue has nothing to do with discounting and is relating to their becoming a manufacturer in direct competition with Bachmann with the 66.

Having dealt with the CMA quite a lot at work they seem largely useless, and seem to make decisions on their own policies based on the whim of whoever you speak to!

This is only a thought

Hattons are the UK's biggest retailer of model railways and a high percentage of their sales are Bachmann products. Bachmann are on a mission to significantly increase their prices compared to other manufacturers. Therefore even if Hattons are applying the same level of margin sales of Bachmann products will be likely reduced and profits in cash terms will be less. Not good for a business with effectively fixed costs. Hattons may be trying to get a better trade deal to counter this issue through better margins. Hattons may be of the view that Buchmann needs Hattons as a retailer much as they need them as a supplier. The legal issue may be down to changes in the trade contract between the two parties. Is there a who blinks first situation here?

Is there a position where a retailer with significant leverage has just had enough of Bachmann's unreasonable price increases and the way this may effect their sales and is pushing for better deal and scrapping of any restrictions such is the limited retail 15% discount on new models.

I know personally I have not bought any new Farish for at least two years (except the cheap items being cleared by Bachmann through retailers) due to the very high prices

Quote from: class37025 on January 23, 2019, 12:40:44 PM
very interesting, I would read that as saying that a retailer could not discount by more than 15% would be illegal.
but then I'm a human being, not a lawyer  :laugh:

Maybe so but a seller can choose who they wish to supply.

I was involved with a large mail-order organisation that was unable to buy supplies from Dapol, Farish or Peco because they did not have a physical presence  on a High Street

The seller would likely be in breach if he threatened to stop supplying a retailer because they refused to apply a maximum discount policy. Otherwise competition law would be easily evaded.

Not sure if this is relevant, to this thread, but for a while Hattons were not offering a fitting service for DCC chips (those of us with fists of ham & bad eyes need to know these things). I notice that they will now fit them again. So, is this a Hattons issue rather than a Farish one?

Of course the irony is that now they will fit me a DCC chip but they don't have any Farish to sell  :hmmm:

I believe that Bachmann are refusing to sell to Hattons as Hattons are classed by Bachmann as a manufacturer and Bachmann will not supply manufacturers with their product, as per Bachmann T & C's.

Cheers
Mark

Yep, as per reply #24, that was my understanding too, and that it has nothing to do with discounting.

I phoned them because I wanted to buy 40 mk3 coaches and thought I'd see if they do a discount, they already had them at £12 and they said they couldn't go lower according to Bachmann, so they definitely abide by any policies laid out to them.

I've read this thread with great interest! I've nothing to add to the conversation, but if it comes to a choice between Hattons and Farish, I will stop buying Farish! I'm new to the hobby but have bought from numerous retailers and Hattons is my "go to" dealer. Incidentally, I've just recently purchased a Farish GWR Railcar advertised "£75 BARGAIN List price: £94.95". Maybe I missed something in the thread posts. Finally, I'm in the United States and Hattons is the only UK dealer to deduct VAT from the list price. Also, their shipping charge is lower than any I've encountered.

Leon

All leading UK model railway retailers should deduct VAT on US sales of new product, but Hattons is unusual in also deducting VAT from sale of pre-owned stock. Indeed for us in Oz if you are buying second hand it's now a choice of taking 20% VAT off the price at Hattons vs adding 10% GST on at Rails eBay store.

I suspect that the rift in the lute occurred with the launch of 'Hattons Wholesale' where Hattons started offering their own range to other retailers. Escpecially given the OO class 66 this puts them in direct competition with Bachmann. Bachmann's terms and conditions do explicitly state that they can refuse to supply a manufacturer.

Even the definition of manufacturer is vague as an OEM re-badge product may or may not make the seller a manufacturer.  Revolution's new 56xx is an example where the model has its origins with a manufacturer that is not the badge seller, and is complicated as Revolution are having significant input on the design.

My reading of the situation is Hattons have a privilege supplier agreement giving them price points in exchange for required volumes that they have either not honoured or are in dispute over.  A sales outlet has no entitlement to be supplied by a manufacturer and a manufacturer is entitled to define the parameters a sales outlet must conform to if they are to be supplied.  this is protect all of their sales customers and stop undercutting and dumping.

On other thought is that there is a glut of unsold stock in the market that could lead to significant discounting.  One way to deal with that is to constrain the supply and at the same time teach an offender a lesson.  Remember N gauge is batched produced, so they don't have continuous flow production to get into the market.  Any model for sale now is no longer in manufacturing it's in stock somewhere.

Any recommendations for who I should move my Farish Pre-Orders to if this issue goes on for too long.

Paul

I've rarely used Hattons and my 'go to' stockist is Rails of Sheffield, especially as I have trained my relatives to get me Rails vouchers for birthdays and Christmases, hence me having almost enough in vouchers to get the forthcoming Class C steamer and a set of birdcage coaches when they arrive :D

Quote from: Ian Morton on February 02, 2019, 10:36:09 AM
I suspect that the rift in the lute occurred with the launch of 'Hattons Wholesale' where Hattons started offering their own range to other retailers. Escpecially given the OO class 66 this puts them in direct competition with Bachmann. Bachmann's terms and conditions do explicitly state that they can refuse to supply a manufacturer.

Is this any different to Gaugemaster selling their own GM Collection range and also supplying this range to other model shops (class 73s, 66s, etc in N, Terriers in O, and various wagons in the three scales) albeit they are made by Dapol for GM?

Bob

Just been onto Hattons site to order some wagons.

155 Farish wagons listed, out of those 155 only 18!!!! Are actually in stock.

This is selfishly just so i can get what I want but......

This really needs to be resolved pretty quick because from what i can see with Hattons always being the cheapest, the other suppliers really don't have a baseline price which they tried to be close to to win custom away from Hattons.

A couple of others are only pennies dearer but don't carry the quantity that Hattons do. Unfortunately I dont buy 1 wagon of 3 types, we buy 10 of each. I just can't get that quantity from many.

Rails keep good numbers but I detest their website, type in the EXACT item you want and then spend 20mins trawling through stuff that is of no use to me.  :veryangry:

So please Hattons and Bachmann sort it out pronto so we can keep our own stock levels up.

Model Railways Direct? Kernow Model Rail Centre? If they're a bit more expensive ask them to price match.

Kernow were unbelievable on the price of stuff i bought of them last week. I was more then pleasantly surprised!!

Will they be under any obligation to price match? Basically if you haven't got an item in stock and can see no time soon as to when your going to receive (ie Hattons) you Can offer an item at 50p knowing you can't honour that because you have no stock. The same way the others can argue
We can't price match because their pricing doesn't reflect their current stock.

Obviously unknown until I ask but just thinking out loud.

Quote from: longbow on February 02, 2019, 03:50:25 AM
All leading UK model railway retailers should deduct VAT on US sales of new product, but Hattons is unusual in also deducting VAT from sale of pre-owned stock. Indeed for us in Oz if you are buying second hand it's now a choice of taking 20% VAT off the price at Hattons vs adding 10% GST on at Rails eBay store.

The VAT rules on second-hand goods are such that Hattons are losing out if they are deducting 20% off pre-owned goods

Don't get me wrong Hattons are a good retailer but they have not been the cheapest on the market for a good number of years. I am very careful to check prices before I buy and other retailers have been cheaper 90% of the time. This is particularly noticeable when similar sale items are being offered around all the box shifters. I feel they use their dominance in the market to charge a bit more than other box shifters as customers tend to buy from them expecting the best price. Therefore no loss in the the short term with regard to not stocking Farish but in the long term removing them as a competitor may drive prices up.

I have quite a lot pre ordered with hattons so hopefully they get it sorted

I do spread my business around too because it's important to support other shops I feel... plus some can be cheaper. I bought a lot of track from track shack recently for example and a few bits from colletts.

Tim

QuoteThe VAT rules on second-hand goods are such that Hattons are losing out if they are deducting 20% off pre-owned goods

Unless the vendor is operating under a VAT margin scheme, the same VAT rules apply to second hand goods as to new ones. 

Quote from: exmouthcraig on February 09, 2019, 09:33:35 AM
Kernow were unbelievable on the price of stuff i bought of them last week. I was more then pleasantly surprised!!

Will they be under any obligation to price match? Basically if you haven't got an item in stock and can see no time soon as to when your going to receive (ie Hattons) you Can offer an item at 50p knowing you can't honour that because you have no stock. The same way the others can argue
We can't price match because their pricing doesn't reflect their current stock.

Obviously unknown until I ask but just thinking out loud.

Definitely no obligation to price match! Entirely at the discretion of the retailer, even if Hatton's (or a.n.other retailer) have stock they can sell for whatever they want to. I'd not be surprised if KMRC did though, and their prices are good. Collett's Models too, very good prices. Hatton's are often not cheapest IME.

Quote from: Bob G on February 02, 2019, 02:13:17 PM
Is this any different to Gaugemaster selling their own GM Collection range and also supplying this range to other model shops (class 73s, 66s, etc in N, Terriers in O, and various wagons in the three scales) albeit they are made by Dapol for GM?

Those are just commissions though, and although KMRC have also gone down the manufacturer route they've not done anything in direct competition with Bachmann.

Quote from: longbow on February 09, 2019, 12:53:54 PM

QuoteThe VAT rules on second-hand goods are such that Hattons are losing out if they are deducting 20% off pre-owned goods

Unless the vendor is operating under a VAT margin scheme, the same VAT rules apply to second hand goods as to new ones.

I agree but they would be foolish not to.

Quote from: exmouthcraig on February 09, 2019, 09:00:28 AM
Rails keep good numbers but I detest their website, type in the EXACT item you want and then spend 20mins trawling through stuff that is of no use to me.  :veryangry:

search using the catalogue number. It will come first in the list

Annoying if there's a range (different running numbers or whatever). The Rails search is disastrous, I'd buy far more from them if they could sort their indexing.

So this issue drags on and on.... it is getting serious now!  :uneasy:

Just like "Leon", if it is a choice between Hattons and Farish, then Hattons wins for me. They have always provided me with great service, and that is important to me in far distant Australia. I check out their new and second hand stock every day. I have also used them to sell large quantities of surplus stock, and they are very fair with that, especially if you want to use it as credit against further purchases.  :thumbsup:

I have used "Rails", but as someone else mentioned, their search is rubbish. Gaugemaster and Osbourns are OK for some special stuff, but you can't beat Hattons for stock and range.

Any new gossip around?  :confused2:

Interesting conversation with AN Other retailer today on this.

If accurate, in effect what Bachman have taken exception to is Hattons wholesaling their products to other retailers.
I.e. you can now see Hattons' Branded products for sale on Rail's of Sheffield stand and several other big name retailers. That in Bachmann's eyes would seem to have crossed the line from a "commissioner" of models to a competing "manufacturer". You wouldn't expect Bachmann to supply stock to Dapol or Hornby and now Hattons have moved themselves into that category...

Quote from: PLD on April 20, 2019, 06:11:32 PM
Interesting conversation with AN Other retailer today on this.

If accurate, in effect what Bachman have taken exception to is Hattons wholesaling their products to other retailers.
I.e. you can now see Hattons' Branded products for sale on Rail's of Sheffield stand and several other big name retailers. That in Bachmann's eyes would seem to have crossed the line from a "commissioner" of models to a competing "manufacturer". You wouldn't expect Bachmann to supply stock to Dapol or Hornby and now Hattons have moved themselves into that category...

I have a Gaugemaster branded product - Gaugemaster GM2210101 GBRf Class 66789 'British Rail 1948-1997' Large Logo Blue - on pre-order from another retailer. The same subject is available under the GF by Bachmann brand. :hmmm: From my unprivileged viewpoint that looks like the same scenario, and AFAIK Gaugemaster are still being supplied by Bachmann.

I just wish they'd crack on and come to some agreement.

am I understanding this correctly ?

Bachman is not so bothered about Hattons 'making' their own models to sell themselves but are unhappy at them selling to other retailers ?

We don't know the specifics of it, so not quite sure.

The GM commissions are just Dapol models. It's not Gaugemaster actually making their own models.

My view and only my opinion is that Hattons should stick to their guns on this.

Buchmann have a track record of including restrictions in their terms for supply, for example only allowing 15% discount on newer releases and dealing with bricks and mortar retailers only. Some of these restrictions are very borderline legally as discussed in other threads.

Their position as one of the two big suppliers is being eroded by lots of new competition. History has shown that if companies do not embrace competition through efficiency and good business they do come to grief in the end.

Although currently mostly 00 it is interesting to see that the new manufacturers are producing high quality models at a better price point than the excessive prices Buchmann are charging

:hmmm:

The longer this drags on the dodgier it gets having Hattons happily taking pre-orders for Bachmann products without even the slightest word to the unwary customer.

If it's about Hattons being a manufacturer, then surely all they need to do is create an arms-length subsidiary, and call it "Super Models" or some such. I suspect that there is more to this dispute than meets the eye! The response I got from Hattons in January was that they were in talks with Bachmann, and expected a resolution "within the next couple of weeks". Clearly that didn't happen!

I wonder if one or more of their current projects is compromising something that Bachmann had in the pre-announcement planning stage, and they are using the fineprint in the retail agreement to try to get them to drop it.

Personally, I will continue to support English-owned Hattons (annual turnover £14m) over Chinese-owned Kader (annual turnover £113m). it is a pity that some of the models I would like to buy will soon be caught in the cross-fire!  :(

I've heard that legal people are now involved in this dispute. This can only mean it will take a long time to resolve and cost both sides a small fortune.

As has been said above, surely Hattons could have chosen a different brand name for their own products.  Based on the fairly low level of new products from Farish and the prices they ask I have to say I wish Hattons all the best.

Personally I don't think a different brand or subsidiary would have been the answer, they have quite logically leveraged their well established Hatton's brand for their own products because it is known and trusted in the model railway world and has been for generations. Clearly they have the financial "muscle" to develop and wholesale their own products directly with factories and in doing so this makes them a direct competitor with Bachmann, but none of us are actually privy to the details of the "dispute" and for this reason it is impossible to speculate why Bachamnn is not supplying them.

I hope they can find a mutually acceptable solution quickly as I don't actually think it is likely to benefit either business if it continues indefinitely.


Roy

The dispute and the cause of it are not speculation. Bachmann were not best pleased with Hattons having their own models manufactured and the dispute began then. When Hattons started distributing their own brand items to other retailers they became a fully fledged manufacturer and therefore competitor to Bachmann. Bachmann has what appears to be a perfectly reasonable policy of not supplying products to competitor manufacturers therefore they can no longer supply to Hattons without breaking their own policy. They might also be accused of being unfair by other manufacturers or retailers if they did continue to supply to Hattons.

The speculation is what happens next.  Bachmann probably think they won't be hurt too much because their products are all available elsewhere and will expect any loss of revenue from Hattons to be replaced with increased revenue elsewhere. Our purchases are largely about the items we want and not the shop we buy it from so this is a reasonable expectation. Short term Hattons will suffer from being without new product from Bachmann to sell. This will damage all important cash flow. If they have plans to create a range of their own items to sell and have the cash available to tool these items without the cash flow from selling new Bachmann products then they could do well in the longer term and could maybe become a real challenger to Bachmann. The rumour I heard is that neither side seem to be about to back down at the moment.

I wonder whether Hattons expected this to happen and have planned for it? If they know they can match Bachmann for quality and also undercut their prices they may have embarked on a high risk strategy that will provide great rewards if it succeeds. Certainly interesting times.

Can we take it the Hattons Garrett will not be made for them by Farish? :laugh:

just sent the following query to Hattons,

"any update on your dispute with Farish / Bachmann ?

will you be receiving items as released or re-stocked or should we be looking at other sources ?

basically, will you be selling Farish / Bachmann when your current stocks are cleared or not ? "

will update when / if a reply is received.
lets be honest, if Hattons are not going to receive stock, it would be nice / honest of them to clarify the situation so customers do not miss out by pre-ordering items they know they are not going to receive, at least for now.

If it is about Hattons being a manufacturer then Bachmann are being selective in applying their wholesale restrictions

Gaugemaster are also a direct manufacturer competitor in that they produce DC and DCC controllers and scenic items / buildings. Therefore in manufacturing competition with Bachmann products

With a bit of research I suggest there will be other similar examples of manufacturers who are also retailing Buchmann products

Hornby, Dapol and Heljan would appear to be happy to supply Hattons for now

There appears to be a bit of a cartel culture within Buchmann which has been keeping prices high for us the customer

Clearly the controller thing isn't really the same.

It appears to be the 66 that really caused the problems, presumably as the first model to actually 'cost' Bachmann sales. I can't imsgine for a second Hatton's are genuinely thinking of "taking on" Bachmann in any capacity, I can't think of any outcome where they are not the losers in all of this.

Why is this not the same, Bachmann are a significant supplier of DCC systems as are Gaugemaster. The only difference is Gaugemaster are an established manufacturer over many years

Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 21, 2019, 10:06:18 PM

There appears to be a bit of a cartel culture within Buchmann which has been keeping prices high for us the customer

That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

Mike

Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 21, 2019, 11:23:50 PM
Why is this not the same, Bachmann are a significant supplier of DCC systems as are Gaugemaster. The only difference is Gaugemaster are an established manufacturer over many years

Bachmann buy in their DCC systems (as do gaugemaster) so where is the problem? More to the point Gaugemaster were the incumbent whereas Bachmann's main aim with controllers has been to supply them as part of trainsets.

Quote from: red_death on April 21, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on April 21, 2019, 11:39:34 PM

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan

Cut throat price competition yes, but encourages competing in other ways such as good old fashioned customer service...

But however you look at it, by definition you can't have a "cartel" of one supplier, so...

Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 21, 2019, 10:06:18 PM
There appears to be a bit of a cartel culture within Buchmann which has been keeping prices high for us the customer

...is some way wide of the mark...

Quote from: PLD on April 22, 2019, 12:13:47 AM
Cut throat price competition yes, but encourages competing in other ways such as good old fashioned customer service...

Well, the opposite - no price competition, because all the big retailers just knock exactly 15% off. Competition in terms of customer service is only likely to come from the smaller retailers IMHO, offering more personal service from their local shops but those that can't actually access stock discounts from Bachmann because they can't buy in bulk, and fundamentally then can't knock the 15% off.

So whether it's 'cartel' (not my word!) or not, I don't think their anti-competitive approach is great for the small model shop (no ability to access discounts), or the big model shop (hands tied on pricing) and thus for the modeller and buyer.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on April 21, 2019, 11:39:34 PM

Quote from: red_death on April 21, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan

Entirely legal and that isn't really my point. Rabbitaway is implying that the manufacturers are artificially keeping the price high for their benefit. By contrast Bachmann (and others) limit on initial retail discounts don't benefit Bachmann directly but do benefit retailers (as they are retaining more of their retail margin). Not really the same point as Rabbitaway seems to be implying.

Quote from: red_death on April 22, 2019, 01:29:43 AM

Quote from: Dr Al on April 21, 2019, 11:39:34 PM

Quote from: red_death on April 21, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
That's a very serious accusation which you keep mentioning - have you anything at all to back that up?

The "no more than 15% discount" in first however many months after release completely kills retailer competition, and in a conceptual way seems like price fixing, even if it is legal.

Cheers,
Alan

Entirely legal and that isn't really my point. Rabbitaway is implying that the manufacturers are artificially keeping the price high for their benefit. By contrast Bachmann (and others) limit on initial retail discounts don't benefit Bachmann directly but do benefit retailers (as they are retaining more of their retail margin). Not really the same point as Rabbitaway seems to be implying.

I agree the limit on discount is to stop its retailers killing each other off.

If one seller is allowed to completely undercuts a market and the competition goes bust,  they can then up the prices to whatever they want and the customer and the manufacturer has nowhere to turn.

Quote from: Chris Morris on April 21, 2019, 02:26:16 PM
Bachmann probably think they won't be hurt too much because their products are all available elsewhere and will expect any loss of revenue from Hattons to be replaced with increased revenue elsewhere. Our purchases are largely about the items we want and not the shop we buy it from so this is a reasonable expectation.

I'm not so sure that this is true. If you are talking about committed hobbyists with healthy budgets, then yes, we may just go elsewhere to find the new Farish kit. However, although I tend to that camp, I think I will take Hattons' side. Many other people will just choose from what is available, so Bachmann will miss out. I suspect that both Bachmann and Hattons will lose some business, both to other retailers and other manufacturers.

Bachmann clearly have the right to decide who to trade with, but this is probably not a rational business decision on their part. In a previous life, I used to work for Amazon.com, and many people thought that Geoff Bezos was mad when he opened up his website to enable anyone else to sell anything, even in competition with Amazon's own product range. Bezos was confident that opening up the marketplace for everyone to trade would benefit all buyers and sellers, and it wouldn't do Amazon any harm. I think Amazon has demonstrated a more successful strategy than Kader Industries!

Come on, Bachmann, time to grow up!  :NGaugersRule:

Just for clarity I used the word "culture" to describe the business attitude of Buchmann in the way they try to control who they supply to and the limitation of allowed discounts. I did not say there is an illegal cartel.

There is a case that controlling price does benefit Buchmann as in drives up the base price point of their products therefore maintaining their wholesale margin.

Bachmann has an odd closed and controlling business culture, just look at the way shut out most people at shows with the centre of their stand for club members only. No other manufacturer leaves the majority of their customers viewing their products from outside their stand's footprint.

Now the competition is snapping at their heels they don't like it!

Quote from: Rabbitaway on April 22, 2019, 01:51:59 AM
Just for clarity I used the word "culture" to describe the business attitude of Buchmann in the way they try to control who they supply to and the limitation of allowed discounts. I did not say there is an illegal cartel.

There is a case that controlling price does benefit Buchmann as in drives up the base price point of their products therefore maintaining their wholesale margin.

Bachmann has an odd closed and controlling business culture, just look at the way shut out most people at shows with the centre of their stand for club members only. No other manufacturer leaves the majority of their customers viewing their products from outside their stand's footprint.

Now the competition is snapping at their heels they don't like it!

I think that others might perceive this business model differently. At the shows I have been to the Bachmann range has been arranged in cabinets for everyone to view, including engineering prototypes, livery tests, etc. There may some items in the area reserved for people who have paid to join one of the Bachmann clubs, but I do not see that as really disadvantaging anyone, as routinely those items appear as quality photos on forum pages and press releases just after the show.

I can see both sides of the Hattons dispute, and agree that it will hurt both parties. If no resolution is found, it will encourage Hattons further along the manufacturer/wholesaler route, and Bachmann will still make trains.

I have read the recent exchanges with interest.

Firstly I do not think Bachmann's practice of limiting discounts (initially on new releases) does anything to push up prices. The wholesale price at which they sell to retailers would be the one that impacts ability to discount, and there is no suggestion that this had radically changed in relation to RRP that I can find anywhere.

Secondly, much as some would like to believe it I do not think that prices are being kept high for reasons of profit motive. Anyone who has watched the news and developments on this forum will know that there are a multitude of factors that have pushed up prices, in particular wages policy in China which directly impacts production and assembly costs. Here I do think in N there must surely be scope to simplify elements of manufacture with certain detail moulded on not glued on separately but manufacturers are between a rock and a hard place as we modellers demand ever higher standards, but in our typically British way do not seem prepared to pay for it.


Personally I think this dispute (and with resepect Chris M I only know what I have read and don't know full specfics from the Horse's Mouth - either Hattons or Bachmann) but what I would say is that to an extent, if the situation is as we understand, both Bachmann will be hit by losing the purchasing of probably it's biggest UK customer which doubtless runs into many hundreds of thousands of pounds and Hattons by having a massive hole in it's inventory for which people will shop elsewhere.


My own personal perception of the way Bachmann operate is that is appears to be too rigid and lacks he agility it really needs in this day and age, it is all very well to have policies that on the face of it are very laudible but that is no good if sales and market share suffer on an ongoing basis because there is no flecxibility.


Roy

Quote from: Roy L S on April 22, 2019, 10:43:50 AM
Firstly I do not think Bachmann's practice of limiting discounts (initially on new releases) does anything to push up prices. The wholesale price at which they sell to retailers would be the one that impacts ability to discount, and there is no suggestion that this had radically changed in relation to RRP that I can find anywhere.

I think the rigidity of not offering the same wholesale discount to smaller buyers is the thing here - and in this case I think they are helping kill off the small retailer - ability to compete here would be far better.

I think that the truth is Bachmann have seen that they (and Hornby, and all other traditional manufacturers) are at real risk from new starts like Hattons. Why? Not because of quality, or the product, but of simple economics - Hattons immediately cut out the middle man (i.e. a intermediate manufacturer that also has to earn a profit), so their margins can only be substantially higher.

I suspect the means by which models are made and sold may move increasingly quickly from manufacturer and separate retailer, to direct retailers who manufacture fairly rapidly assuming Hattons are successful, giving them more control, and more margin.

Cheers,
Alan

Except that with Hattons also wholesale-ing their own products they are losing some of that advantage both in terms of margin and exclusivity. So swings and roundabouts!

Quote from: Dr Al on April 22, 2019, 11:15:54 AM

I think the rigidity of not offering the same wholesale discount to smaller buyers is the thing here - and in this case I think they are helping kill off the small retailer - ability to compete here would be far better.

I would go along with that. Some years ago I wanted 5 Farish locos and went to my local dealer first. I asked if they could provide any discount for such a purchase (at the time some £350-£400) and I was told 'No way - we'll lose money'

Quote from: Dr Al on April 22, 2019, 11:15:54 AM
simple economics - Hattons immediately cut out the middle man (i.e. a intermediate manufacturer that also has to earn a profit), so their margins can only be substantially higher.

Maybe I've misunderstood this but surely Hattons/whoever has to pay someone to make their models and that someone will need to make a profit.
Example - the Hattons Garrett will not be made at break even by someone so Hattons can make a killing.

By going direct Hattons benefit by eliminating Bachmann's sales margin (ie their mark-up over manufacturing cost). Bachmann would also lose their in-house manufacturing profit to whoever supplies Hattons.

maybe slightly off topic, but I tend to use Hattons as my go to retailer because I can normally get what I want in one place / one parcel.

might be paint / glue / scenics / N gauge / or 1:76 for wargames vehicles.

as I see it, if I need to go elsewhere for Farish N gauge, I might also be able to get the rest there as well, so why split my order ?

I would add that I am not one of those people who do their weekly shop at about six different supermarkets, saving a penny here, a penny there, and spending a quid on fuel  :no:

so if Hattons cannot be my one-stop retailer, they might lose all my business [ SWMBO is around so I decline to commit suicide by adding what that might cost  :-[ ]

Surely any distributor offers quantity discounts to retailers who are buying larger volumes, that's just basic economics, and nothing to do with evil Bachmann out to screw over the humble local shop.

My standard anecdote on this... some years ago I was buying some brakes for a new bike. They were £200 each, which is pretty high end, so low volume. The distributor offered discounts for 2, 4 and 8 brakes, something like 2%, 5% and 10% discount respectively. I placed my order, and was told it was delayed as Chain Reaction (the Hatton's of the cycling world) has ordered 200 of them. What sort of discount must you be able to negotiate on those volumes?! Although I've read it's not the case I can't believe that the big retailers don't get better trade margins. 

The smaller retailers can also put in the same size of order as the likes of Hatton's and Rails and will (probably) get the same kinds of discounts.  It all comes down to if they can afford the outlay and are willing to take the risk.  My dad managed his own shops for most of his working life and as a sole retailer he never got the kind of discounts that chains did.  His big selling point was good old fashioned customer service like you get in a lot of little model shops!

As far as Hatton's not stocking Farish how many people will be happy with a Dapol 66 in the livery they are wanting be? and as for most things coming away with nothing at all!  I know I will look for a while but eventually I will have to go elsewhere.  Unless Hattons are planning on duplicating the whole Bachmann range surely they are on to a no win. 

I must admit that whilst I used to buy a fair number of items from Hattons as my online retailer of choice I now prefer to support my local(ish) model shop in Alton Hampshire. This shop is one of a dying breed giving excellent service and advice and a reasonable discount. So I'm not too bothered about Hattons problems, although I hope they sort out the problems with Bachmann for the benefit of our hobby in general.  :beers:

Quote from: class37025 on April 21, 2019, 03:15:53 PM
just sent the following query to Hattons,

"any update on your dispute with Farish / Bachmann ?

will you be receiving items as released or re-stocked or should we be looking at other sources ?

basically, will you be selling Farish / Bachmann when your current stocks are cleared or not ? "

will update when / if a reply is received.
lets be honest, if Hattons are not going to receive stock, it would be nice / honest of them to clarify the situation so customers do not miss out by pre-ordering items they know they are not going to receive, at least for now.

just received this response ....

"Thank you for your email.

We do not currently have any further updates however we have an allocation with the manufacturer and we will be able to send these pre-order items as soon as they are received by ourselves.

I hope this helps and if you have any further questions then please do not hesitate to contact us."

not exactly illuminating  :confused1:

Quote from: class37025 on April 23, 2019, 09:57:42 AM
We do not currently have any further updates however we have an allocation with the manufacturer and we will be able to send these pre-order items as soon as they are received by ourselves.

I would have thought that Hattons could get themselves into serious trouble, unless they have a genuine expectation that they will be able to provide these pre-order items.
:hmmm:

Can't help be a little bemused by the idea that Bachmann/Farish is basically sitting on a pile of stock allocated to Hattons yet nobody has any idea whether the dispute will be settled or not.

Whilst I agree it seems odd there is a pile of stock marked "Hatton's" at the back of the Bachmann warehouse, the fact both parties have confirmed that to be the case clearly indicates that they do see a resolution.

As this is all being done by respective legal teams I don't think there'll ever be any 'updates', it'll just suddenly get resolved.

Quote from: njee20 on April 23, 2019, 10:59:00 AM
Whilst I agree it seems odd there is a pile of stock marked "Hatton's" at the back of the Bachmann warehouse, the fact both parties have confirmed that to be the case clearly indicates that they do see a resolution.

As this is all being done by respective legal teams I don't think there'll ever be any 'updates', it'll just suddenly get resolved.

If Bachmann had accepted the order from Hattons and then distributed the stock to other retailers, they would probably be liable for Hattons loss of profit.   

Well yes, but they could equally have rejected the orders. Like I say, both are continuing as if a resolution is the likely outcome.

Quote from: Kaput on April 23, 2019, 10:41:57 AM
Can't help be a little bemused by the idea that Bachmann/Farish is basically sitting on a pile of stock allocated to Hattons yet nobody has any idea whether the dispute will be settled or not.

i think that the remark from Hattons is in respect of pre-ordered items. If Bachmann has accepted Hattons' order for these and intends to honour the order, then there will be a pre-allocation of the production to Hattons. Hattons appears to believe the order has been accepted, and that is probably where the dispute begins, if Bachmann is saying "but you are no longer complying with our order conditions."

Just noticed that Hattons are still listed on the Bachmann website as a stockist! :confusedsign:

Why? They have an ongoing dispute, they're not not a stockist. This is discussed literally in the posts preceding yours. Bachmann have kept Hatton's stock allocation pending the resolution of the debate.

It's entirely possible the conclusion will be the loss of Hatton's as a stockist, but I can't see that happening.

Why not, if Bachmann are going after Hattons for breaking trading terms, why not go for the big boy as a warning to all the others.

As for they won't keep it up because it will cost them too much money, but will it, what do you think will happen to Hattons Farish/Bachmann customers when they can't get their new models from Hattons, they will all go elsewhere.

In the end only Hattons will lose out, with other dealers all seeing a rise in their sales.  Farish/Bachmann might even see a rise in their profits as well as the other smaller dealers will not have the same buying discounts in place that Hattons had.

I have already moved all my Farish back pre-orders to another dealer and I am sure I am not alone.

Only time will tell if Hattons crumble and stop selling their models to other dealers, or if they will no longer sell Bachmann/Farish products.  Or if this ends up in court and a few corrupt solicitors get rich over it.

Quote from: Paul-H on May 06, 2019, 08:26:45 AM

Only time will tell if Hattons crumble and stop selling their models to other dealers, or if they will no longer sell Bachmann/Farish products.  Or if this ends up in court and a few corrupt solicitors get rich over it.

Why do you think that Bachmann or Hattons would employ corrupt solicitors? Seems a peculiar allegation to me.

It is my opinion through personal experience that the legal profession is corrupt and full of negligent individuals.

Just look at how many of our politicians used to be solicitors and barristers, and we know what we think of them.

To quote a famous author

What's the difference between a solicitor and a cat fish

Ones a bottom feeding scum sucker and the other is a fish.

Ok I am a little biased having lost my home trying to fight an inheitence theft at the hands of a corrupt solicitor only to find the legal profession is so corrupt they will do anything to protect their own.

Quote from: Paul-H on May 06, 2019, 10:40:57 AM
It is my opinion through personal experience that the legal profession is corrupt and full of negligent individuals.

Ok, understand now, but still a sweeping generalisation, I think.

Quote from: Paul-H on May 06, 2019, 10:40:57 AM
It is my opinion through personal experience that the legal profession is corrupt and full of negligent individuals.

Just look at how many of our politicians used to be solicitors and barristers, and we know what we think of them.

To quote a famous author

What's the difference between a solicitor and a cat fish

Ones a bottom feeding scum sucker and the other is a fish.

Ok I am a little biased having lost my home trying to fight an inheitence theft at the hands of a corrupt solicitor only to find the legal profession is so corrupt they will do anything to protect their own.

Anger and ire, much like a fully-automatic-machinegun, needs to be carefully aimed or innocent victims will result.

My FiL is a retired solicitor. To the best of my knowledge, when he was a practising solicitor he was never anything but rigorously professional, diligent and honest. As an individual he has flaws as some of us do, but his character is thoroughly free of deceit; truthful and sincere.

I don't like solicitors and they do charge a lot for their services (as do many professionals). Having said that I am sure that the vast majority are good, honest people doing a specialist job that requires many years study to be allowed to be practiced. It is unfair to call them corrupt.

Involving legal people in any dispute will cost both parties dearly.

More to the point, and I'm no solicitor, some comments may be found libellous to anyone who is :hmmm:

Probably best to stick to available facts, these putative solicitors burst into the thread on the tail of a speculative "if" and are not known to be involved.

regardless of solicitors [check a dictionary for the definition of 'solicit'  ;D]
it would be nice for us, the punters / customers / people with funds, if somebody, on either side, actually made clear what the problem is.

I have been a loyal customer of Hattons for many years / far too many £s, and it would be nice to find out exactly what is going on.

from what has been said on here, it would seem that the problem is Hattons selling their own models to other retailers, and hence becoming 'manufacturers' rather than 'retailers'.

is that all this spat is about, or is there more to it ?

come on Hattons / Bachmann, be honest so we know where we, and you, stand.

I think we are veering way off topic, so let's have a breather

Email message from Hattons this morning;

Good morning,
You currently have an outstanding pre-order for the following:
Class C Wainwright 0-6-0 31227 in BR black with early emblem
Pack of three SECR 60 Birdcage coaches in BR vermillion
Conflat Wagon BR Bauxite (Early) With Pickfords BD Container [WL]

We are no longer able to fulfil this pre-order and have therefore cancelled the order on our system, and from your account.

Checking Bachmann's website, Hattons are no longer listed as a stockist!

Looks like Hattons have lost the battle.

:o

I also had a similar email this morning and looking at my wishlist on the Hattons website, every one of the Farish items has been cancelled off.  Does this mean Hattons are no longer a reseller, what happened if anyone knows??

Stu...

Just got an email to say Hatton's can't fulfill my Farish pre order
Looks like the dummy spit between the two has gotten serious

They appear to have removed all Bachmann/Farish forthcoming products from their website too.

Edit: and are no longer listed as a stockist on Bachmann's website, which I recall they still had been.

Wow. Amazing how it comes to this. Then again it might be the end of the dominant Farish and their stupidly high prices
My other outlets will do their own locos etc.  just look at how good revolution have been. Now we have NGS and sonic with locos

just went on Hattons chat and sent this question

just checked and I note you are now only listing Graham Farish items that are either in stock or pre owned, no pre orders. are you no longer a GF agent ?

this has been 'viewed' but so far no response.

about 15 minutes later this was received

Hello Alan,

Thank you for your email.

We are no longer accepting pre-orders for Graham Farish items. Where possible we will try to get stock of their items but we cannot guarantee it I'm afraid.

I hope this helps and if you have any further questions then please do not hesitate to contact us.

looks like you will need to look elsewhere for new items in future.

Given the somewhat precarious position they've been in for nearly a year it would have been a weird choice to place pre-orders with them anyway, but yes, this appears to cement the fact that they may cease to be a dealer permanently.

Interesting.

just checked my e-mails and found this from Hattons

Good Morning Alam

Thank you for your email.

You can find Bachmann stockists on their website :

https://www.bachmann.co.uk/stockists/ (https://www.bachmann.co.uk/stockists/)

I cannot guarantee that each stockist will have all Bachmann/Farish items but it may worth checking on that webpage.

I do apologise for this and any inconvenience this may have caused.

If we can be of any assistance please contact us.

says something when they are directing you to other retailers, certainly does not create much hope of a resolution of their problems with Bachmann  :(

That's a shame but I guess no big surprise as the situation has been ongoing for quite a while.

Disappointed for those with a long pre-order list. I'm pretty much overstocked with locos and rolling stock so their withdrawal from selling Bachmann kit doesn't affect me too much.

On the bright side, there are plenty of other very good stockists around and a number that are happy to ship overseas. Hope they can take up the slack and provide a decent web based service for distant customers.

Dave G

 :hellosign:

Quote from: stuartgoble on August 07, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
I also had a similar email this morning and looking at my wishlist on the Hattons website, every one of the Farish items has been cancelled off.  Does this mean Hattons are no longer a reseller, what happened if anyone knows??

Stu...

To avoid going over old ground, this RMWeb thread has several pages of unsubstantiated speculation, but at contains the general jist of what is going on.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145752-hattons-bachmann-new-stock-cancelled-pre-orders-07-aug/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-3634481 (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145752-hattons-bachmann-new-stock-cancelled-pre-orders-07-aug/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-3634481)

Model Railways Direct or Rails of Sheffield for my Farish stuff in the future.

About time that Hattons made up their mind what they want to be - "Retailer" or "Manufacturer"...

It seems they are finally being honest with customers and admitting they won't be getting stock from Bachmann.

(And before anyone asks, why should Bachmann supply stock to a rival Manufacturer who is now wholesaling products to other retailers - you wouldn't expect Bachmann items to be available from Dapol or Hornby would you??)

I'm glad the situation has been clarified. Until I know differently, it affects my feelings about Graham Farish more than Hattons, from whom I'll continue buying - though most of my buying is in the rear-view mirror. I've not bought from Osborn Models, but have them for my backup vendor and I notice they stock Graham Farish. I didn't see them in the Bachman stockists list!

Leon

See Also:

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=46110.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=46110.0)
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44193.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44193.0)

Quote from: PLD on August 07, 2019, 07:42:54 PM
About time that Hattons made up their mind what they want to be - "Retailer" or "Manufacturer"...

Is there some unwritten law we are unaware of where it's enshrined you can't be both?

They get bagged for being a box shifter

They get bagged for being a manufacturer.

Haters always gonna hate.

Quote from: Leon on August 07, 2019, 07:49:37 PMI've not bought from Osburn Models, but have them for my backup vendor and I notice they stock Graham Farish. I didn't see them in the Bachman stockists list!

Osborn's, not Osburn.

It appears to be the 66 which is the issue, as lots of shops now wholesale items too; Gaugemaster, Rails, Olivia's etc. The 66 is in direct competition with Bachmann and will undoubtedly cost them sales.

With all the speculation over this issue, I wonder if it's just a case of bash the big boy to keep all the little boys in line.

Bachmann know they will not loose out doing this as they know we, their customers will just go elsewhere for our Bachmann/Farish products, and probably through dealers that get less of a discount than Hattons.

By stopping selling to one of the biggest sellers they are firing a warning shot over the bowes of all their other customers. Behave yourself or else.

If they sell to their other dealers with less of a discount than they did to Hattons they might end up making more profit on all the stock sold through their smaller dealers.

I suspect Bachmann are on to a winner with this. ;)

i have got quite a few pre orders to switch now...

any recommendations?


tim

Rails or Model Railways Direct, who are now taking pre-orders. 

Quote from: bluedepot on August 07, 2019, 09:54:34 PM
i have got quite a few pre orders to switch now...

any recommendations?

tim

I've used Rails of Sheffield for years, Tim. Generally a price match for Hattons and have always given me good service

Collett's of Exmouth worth a look too. One of the small bricks and mortar shops, but rivals the big boys on price. Payment plans too.

Any accusations that Bachmann are trying to suppress competition or fire warning shots had better have some evidence as the evidence against is publicly available (Bachmann's T&C). If people are going to insist on unfounded theories then definitely time for the mods to lock this thread.

I got the 'We cannot fulfil your pre-order of this product' e-mail last night for the sound-fitted Green Class 108. Never mind, I will look elsewhere...

I did ask 'why' but the answer was evasive. Would be nice to know more about the elephant in the room.

Oh well, so be it. Technically Hattons (in the Graham Farish world) has closed down. They still trade with numerous other N gauge manufacturers and suppliers of many worthwhile products.

We've kind of known that was the way it would end but, was there truth in Hattons allocation of Bachmann stock on hold just incase the situation resolved itself? If so presumably they'll be a good volume of the last 9-12months worth of GF stock available for all their other stockists to buy and sell? Or is that where Model Rail Direct got their sale stock??  :hmmm:

For me a bulk order from Hattons allowed me to use DHL via online ordering to ship quickly to Cape Town. Having self organized a DHL courier for a Union Mills order I can see that Hattons appeared to have discounted rates. At present I do not see say Rails using DHL stock answer is we use Royal Mail or Parcelforce as appropriate. In a nutshell I will be losing convenience and maybe price when I move away from Hattons  :(

Quote from: red_death on August 07, 2019, 11:05:54 PM
Any accusations that Bachmann are trying to suppress competition or fire warning shots had better have some evidence as the evidence against is publicly available (Bachmann's T&C). If people are going to insist on unfounded theories then definitely time for the mods to lock this thread.

The Ts&Cs are, frankly, evidence that this is exactly a warning shot. Several dealer/distributors are into the exclusive commission thing, and this appears to be a very clear warning to all of the consequences of straying outside the established lanes.

Note that in some jurisdictions the usual cozy collaboration between UK model railway manufacturers would be straying perilously close to the rocks of anti-trust legislation.

According to RMWeb, Bachmann are taking issue not with retailer model commissions per se but with Hattons wish to wholesale their own commissioned products to other retailers. Hattons must have ambitious plans in that direction if they are willing to ditch Bachmann in pursuit of it.

Quote from: longbow on August 08, 2019, 05:29:53 AM
According to RMWeb, Bachmann are taking issue not with retailer model commissions per se but with Hattons wish to wholesale their own commissioned products to other retailers. Hattons must have ambitious plans in that direction if they are willing to ditch Bachmann in pursuit of it.

I think that's the real issue. As soon as Hattons allow their name to be on models sold through other retailers they become a competitor to Bachmann. Bachmann have their T&Cs which quite reasonably say they wont supply their products to other manufacturers. On the other hand Hattons must have seen a gap in the market that they think they can exploit. They would not be continuing on what appears to be a high risk venture if they didn't see an opportunity. Its just business. Both parties are doing what they believe is right for them for a good future. Neither party should be seen as being in the wrong.

I think Bachmann see the likes of Hattons as a threat because Hattons will have lower overheads than Bachmann Europe and will have the ability to get quotes from a number of factories for anything they want to have made rather than be forced to accept whatever price Kadar give them. This means there is a good chance that their total costs for any model will be lower than Bachmann's costs. It will be interesting to see where we are in five years time.

I wonder if Bachmann should be working on getting their cost base lower rather than stifling competition. You only have to compare their prices for coaches with Dapol's prices to see they must be doing something wrong. Farish mk 1 coach rrp - £39.95, Dapol mk 3 coach rrp - £25.95.

What rather bemuses me with the suggestions that it is about one manufacturer not supplying another with it's products, which I quite understand, is that others such as Hornby, Dapol etc don't appear to be doing the same. They would seem to be happy to provide Hattons with stock. Mind you they also sell direct through there own websites, which Bachmann UK don't, so perhaps take a different view of the marketplace that exists today.

Whatever the case it's an unfortunate end to the matter in which there doesn't appear to be any real winners, indeed that many loose out one way or another. Very sad.

Izzy

Quote from: Bingley Hall on August 07, 2019, 08:24:00 PM

Quote from: PLD on August 07, 2019, 07:42:54 PM
About time that Hattons made up their mind what they want to be - "Retailer" or "Manufacturer"...

Is there some unwritten law we are unaware of where it's enshrined you can't be both?

No but there is a very clearly written rule in Bachmanns T&Cs that Hattons must have been aware of that they won't supply to other manufacturers...

Arguably Bachmann have actually been more tolerant of Hattons (and others) commissioning models to retail under their own brands, but while those models remained 'exclusive' to one retailer it was tolerated; that changed when you started to see Hattons branded products appear at other retailers...

Quote from: Izzy on August 08, 2019, 07:44:09 AM

What rather bemuses me with the suggestions that it is about one manufacturer not supplying another with it's products, which I quite understand, is that others such as Hornby, Dapol etc don't appear to be doing the same.

Not Yet... ... ...

Which is why the 66 is allegedly the sticking point.

That is a direct aim at Bachmann, and categorically will cost them sales. Doing complementary models is a good thing for Bachmann, but duplication isn't, particularly when it's specifically intended to take market share, unlike (for example) the Dapol/Farish 66s which were simply developed simultaneously.

Hornby have their new Railroad 66, and now Hatton's have the high end top spec one. Bachmann suddenly have a defunct product line!

As others have observed the reality is that other retailers will pick up the slack, I've not seen anyone saying "my pre-order's been cancelled so I'm buying a Dapol model instead. The impact to Bachmann is probably reputational principally.

Quote from: Chris Morris on August 08, 2019, 06:42:14 AM
I wonder if Bachmann should be working on getting their cost base lower rather than stifling competition. You only have to compare their prices for coaches with Dapol's prices to see they must be doing something wrong. Farish mk 1 coach rrp - £39.95, Dapol mk 3 coach rrp - £25.95.

That's a bit of an unfair comparison IMO, the mk1 is a complex design with lots of detail, the mk3 is very simple in comparison. Fairer I think is some of the wagons - Dapol's Megafret IKA container flats are still £35 (plus containers), whilst Farish's FIAs are up to £80 now, both released at the same time, about 10 years ago. Obviously we've no idea about the respective strategies to amortisation, but if Bachmann are still recouping costs on a model that far down the line on about the 5th production run I'd be concerned.

Quote from: PLD on August 08, 2019, 07:53:18 AM
Arguably Bachmann have actually been more tolerant of Hattons (and others) commissioning models to retail under their own brands, but while those models remained 'exclusive' to one retailer it was tolerated; that changed when you started to see Hattons branded products appear at other retailers...

Gaugemaster are doing the same with their "Gaugemaster Collection", although they're basically just repaints at the moment.

Quote from: bluedepot on August 07, 2019, 09:54:34 PM
i have got quite a few pre orders to switch now...

any recommendations?


tim

TMC have started offering pre orders.

Quote from: Chris Morris on August 08, 2019, 06:42:14 AM

Quote from: longbow on August 08, 2019, 05:29:53 AM
According to RMWeb, Bachmann are taking issue not with retailer model commissions per se but with Hattons wish to wholesale their own commissioned products to other retailers. Hattons must have ambitious plans in that direction if they are willing to ditch Bachmann in pursuit of it.

I think that's the real issue. As soon as Hattons allow their name to be on models sold through other retailers they become a competitor to Bachmann. Bachmann have their T&Cs which quite reasonably say they wont supply their products to other manufacturers. On the other hand Hattons must have seen a gap in the market that they think they can exploit. They would not be continuing on what appears to be a high risk venture if they didn't see an opportunity. Its just business. Both parties are doing what they believe is right for them for a good future. Neither party should be seen as being in the wrong.

I think Bachmann see the likes of Hattons as a threat because Hattons will have lower overheads than Bachmann Europe and will have the ability to get quotes from a number of factories for anything they want to have made rather than be forced to accept whatever price Kadar give them. This means there is a good chance that their total costs for any model will be lower than Bachmann's costs. It will be interesting to see where we are in five years time.

I wonder if Bachmann should be working on getting their cost base lower rather than stifling competition. You only have to compare their prices for coaches with Dapol's prices to see they must be doing something wrong. Farish mk 1 coach rrp - £39.95, Dapol mk 3 coach rrp - £25.95.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been thinking very much the same Chris Morris.
Hatton's must be pretty sure they can do things their own way and quite possibly see an opening to compete on cost. We are hovering around the £50 N gauge coach from Farish, which for some will be just too much or they're just unwilling to pay it. I won't pay it and started making my own coaches from etches around 18 months back...and loving some real modelling.
I would say Farish have been greedy rather than doing something wrong, and may have scored an own goal.

Farish with their year on year price increases may have pushed the boat out a bit too far, and Hattons's given their sales/customer base will have noticed if customers have been buying less Farish as a result.

Our daughters in-laws are from Hong Kong and when I relayed the story of the Farish price increases to him he laughed, saying somebody is being taken for a ride. He is a businessman and returns to H.K. several times a year to check on his businesses. I know he has his finger on the pulse and how things operate in his homeland.

We may yet see an N gauge King rise from the ashes of the DJM dogs breakfast, as a Hatton's introduction. Yes, the next 5 years could indeed be interesting.

I think that's an enormous leap of faith, lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Yes, at face value Farish products are currently coming in more expensive than Dapol, who have admitted they are a bit cool on N gauge at the moment. However, we've no reason to think that Hatton's are proposing to go toe-to-toe with Bachmann on a full range, or indeed that they have any intention to release any further products whatsoever. Revolution's forthcoming mk5 coaches are £45 each, that's just where we are presently. If Hatton's really wanted to stick it to Bachmann and release some mk2 air-con coaches and get them to market before them I reckon they'd still be very close on price.

Railway products seem to have been affected more than many things by increases in Chinese labour rates, but that's not all that surprising when you consider what is being made; low volume products with extremely high levels of manual work. It's easy to look at television production and say "but TVs are falling in price", but the volumes are astronomical in comparison, and comprise huge numbers of machine built components. Look at the photos Revolution, Rapido or Accurascale have shared of people literally sat at desks surrounded by bodyshells, applying details by hand. That's expensive, at a time when that very commodity, the people, is soaring in cost.

Hattons of course could have avoided any issues in being seen legally or otherwise as a manufacturer by setting up a sister company for the production of their own lines, there might have been some renegotiation from GF but if 'they' weren't the manufacturer directly and were also being supplied by 'HattonsEngines' then I don't think it would have got quite to this point. Just my opinion though and a moot point given where we actually are!

Part of me wondered that, Gaugemaster's shop is actually called the Engine Shed after all, but AFAIK it's purely a trading name of the same company. Similarly the brand they retail is "the Gaugemaster Collection", like Rails have "Rails Exclusives" I'm not sure that really would have made any difference, it's just marketing.

Ultimately Bachmann are under no actual obligation to supply anyone, so legal T&Cs are a bit irrelevant, they can just say "you know what, you're annoying us, no more products". They don't need a reason.

As they say in many a Pub


We Reserve The Right To refuse Service To Anyone

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2019, 10:43:31 AM
...Yes, at face value Farish products are currently coming in more expensive than Dapol, who have admitted they are a bit cool on N gauge at the moment....

Can I ask what the source of this information is? I should be interested to know the details in relation to this. My apologies if I have missed another post on the forum which makes this clear.

I read it on RMWeb, I forget where the original source was, quite possibly verbal rather than written down anywhere, but the general gist was that they were pursuing O gauge and OO as more lucrative markets for the time being.

I'd not take it as gospel, but they're not exactly falling over themselves to punt out N gauge models these days. I think it was made before they resumed work on the 50, maybe that's indicative of a renewed confidence in N.

Such frothing and speculation.
Both companies are still in business but have had a parting of the ways. It can happen in the business world. OK - it could make things more difficult for those abroad but unless a declaration is made by either company (doubtful) anything else is just words on the breeze.
Have fun with it, but 'I'm out'.

Quote from: trkilliman on August 08, 2019, 08:54:10 AMWe may yet see an N gauge King rise from the ashes of the DJM dogs breakfast, as a Hatton's introduction.

I think that depends on what was the underlying problem with the erstwhile Hattons/DJM arrangement. Was it the Market, the Model or the Man???

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2019, 07:58:25 AM

Quote from: PLD on August 08, 2019, 07:53:18 AM
Arguably Bachmann have actually been more tolerant of Hattons (and others) commissioning models to retail under their own brands, but while those models remained 'exclusive' to one retailer it was tolerated; that changed when you started to see Hattons branded products appear at other retailers...

Gaugemaster are doing the same with their "Gaugemaster Collection", although they're basically just repaints at the moment.

And that's the key difference: to quote from Gaugemaster's website:

QuoteThe Gaugemaster Collection is a carefully chosen range of items, produced in conjunction with tried and tested manufacturers.

The philosophy so far seems to be to bring to market some of the more novel liveries of existing models that could be seen as too risky for the manufacturers to do as general releases. The N Gauge 66s are I believe a Dapol model, but there is every possibility the next product could have a Farish base model...

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2019, 07:58:25 AM
As others have observed the reality is that other retailers will pick up the slack, I've not seen anyone saying "my pre-order's been cancelled so I'm buying a Dapol model instead. The impact to Bachmann is probably reputational principally.

People won't say that because they can't if they're looking for a model of a particular prototype. The nature of the UK manufacturing scene has a long-established "tradition" of not usually engaging in direct competition. "My pre-order has been cancelled" means for a given model - that Dapol doesn't produce. I hope Hattons can make a go of being a manufacturer though. From the consumer's perspective it's better to have more variety.

That's my exact point. People want a certain model; if their retailer of choice can't supply it they buy elsewhere, they don't buy a different model. Ergo Bachmann don't really lose out.

Agree on Hatton's as a manufacturer, I suspect they'll play more in OO gauge - the 66 is a serious entry with the number they're releasing, and they're already doing second batches of some models. They're obviously testing the N gauge water with the Garrett, be interesting to see if we see more out of them.

cheers for recommendations

got about 6 locos and a 158 to order now


tim

Am I weird in having never pre-ordered an item?

Quote from: njee20 on August 09, 2019, 10:10:12 AM
Am I weird in having never pre-ordered an item?

Except from RevolutioN etc? Although, of course, for most pre-orders you don't pay in advance.

Quote from: njee20 on August 09, 2019, 10:10:12 AM
Am I weird in having never pre-ordered an item?

Erm - yes. ;D
You might, just might, be gambling on whether that model sells out and so miss the boat. I did that with the 1st run of Dapol Hymeks :doh:
On the other hand there could be a second run and, should the first run not sell well you probably gain from getting a reduced price one at a later date.

Never missed out on anything yet! *touches wood*

I too don't like to pre-order. I wouldn't like to have my (already sketchy) budgeting screwed up by the unscheduled arrival of and billing for a couple of pre-ordered locos.

I do use Colletts' payment plans - I've got a couple of locos fully paid in advance with them - with which I keep control of my budget with no sudden invoicing for full payment of c. £120.

Like others I re-evaluated what I had lined up. So far I have only placed one order elsewhere, and that wasn't on my Farish waiting list.

A Sonic 56xx, definitely a Rule 1 loco.

I can do without the 8F, Thompsons and the sound-fitted 108.  The J72s (plural) have already been ditched by Bachmann as too difficult to engineer.

I may well have another Hattons OO gauge Class P with the money I saved, or maybe not.  It might go towards a rather tasty sound-fitted BR44 as the starting point of a new (German N-gauge) layout- Furtwangen Zwei may yet happen.  Who would have thought Bachmann would precipitate that?


Les
.

I still had two birdcage sets on order from Hattons and a C Class. Like Les I have not placed an order for these elsewhere and am re-evaluating the situation as I think they may be too large for the layout in question. Bachman will certainly not get the order elsewhere Perhaps some 56XXs, Union Mills Collett 0-6-0s or more Cemflos for other projects?

The next think is that we will be told that Bachman cannot justify producing British N Gauge for lack of interest as we were at TINGs last year.

Well that would seem to be being borne out by the sentiment in this thread...!

I must say I don't think there's anything on Farish's release schedule that I'm particularly interested in. Nor Dapol really come to think of it!

My current forward orders are

4 N-gauge Society Hunslets for Hawthorn Dene
and the Sonic 56xx I referred to in my last post- this might end up as a chassis donor for a Lambton tank or N10 if I can find a suitable starting point for the boiler and tanks.

plus a OO Hornby Peckett 0-6-0ST for NO PLACE.  Nothing BachFar anywhere.

I'm still thinking about the second Hattons Class P and a third Dapol B4 again for NO PLACE, though there are a few locos to cull from that collection as they don't like the layout - a Hornby J50 and Terrier to start with.

I'm also having a cull of overstock from Hawthorn Dene and Croft Spa this winter- inappropriate locos and a few less-than-perfect runners from the still-analogue fleet will be weeded out in the Autumn, together with some of the huge oversupply of goods wagons now I've got my trains just about finalised..

Layout 5 can't begin for another year so there is plenty of time to decide between Crackpot and Furtwangen II.

Les

Hattons presumably decided they can make more money as a manufacturer than as a Bachmann reseller, though when they started out they probably didn't expect they'd have to choose.

Their choice of model in N isn't exactly mainstream, which suggests when they chose it they saw manufacturing as peripheral to their business. But they've been prepared to sacrifice the Bachmann business, so they may aim for higher volumes with their next choices.

Hopefully they'll find it worth while to continue with N. They're not silly, so this could be really interesting.

We have no idea how the Bachmann thing has played out, so I'm not sure we can say Hatton's have driven the decision. ultimately they're likely £100k plus in on the 66, so they're unlikely to walk away from that.

not sure about others, but I tended to order railway items from Hattons, and then added paint, scenics and other items to the order.

question is, if I have to order somewhere else for train items, will I then order the rest from Hattons, or add them to the order with the other seller ?

if I'm typical, how much could Hattons lose in other areas because they no longer sell Farish ?

Quote from: class37025 on August 11, 2019, 10:10:27 AMquestion is, if I have to order somewhere else for train items, will I then order the rest from Hattons, or add them to the order with the other seller ?

if I'm typical, how much could Hattons lose in other areas because they no longer sell Farish ?

When I was recently ordering the first batch of points, track, etc for my Coniston Railway extension to Coniston, Hattons didn't have any stock of one of the Peco points types I required.

Rails of Sheffield did, and also had everything else (some items turned out to be cheaper than Hattons, too) so Rails got the entire order.

I would adopt the same attitude if it had been anything else I wanted that Hattons didn't have, Farish or otherwise.

If I have several items to order I look to see who has them all and at what price. If I have to order some items separate from the main order 2 lots of postage have to be taken into account.
It's no hard task to sort out the cheapest option.

Sounds to me like "restriction of trade" - illegal under current EU Regulations (like not releasing a surplus footballer from his contract whilst not playing or even paying him, as used to happen until a few years ago).

No it doesn't. At all. Bachmann don't have to supply anyone.

As I have expressed in other responses Buchmann would appear to wish to apply restrictions in their T&Cs that are somewhat draconian based on their market position and constrict competition. This may be within legal laws but is not allowing competion in the market to operate naturally, Hattons are to be commended in pushing back on this and hopefully this should that create better pricing and more choice for us as customers

Quote from: Rabbitaway on August 11, 2019, 10:46:36 PM
As I have expressed in other responses Buchmann would appear to wish to apply restrictions in their T&Cs that are somewhat draconian based on their market position and constrict competition. This may be within legal laws but is not allowing competion in the market to operate naturally, Hattons are to be commended in pushing back on this and hopefully this should that create better pricing and more choice for us as customers

I am not aware that the nature of the dispute was about discounting, and while never disclosed by either party it is understood to be more to do with Hattons taking on the mantle of manufacturer and wholesaler in direct competition in breach of T&Cs of supply, the 66 in 00 especially being something of a red rag to a bull..

Quote from: Rabbitaway on August 11, 2019, 10:46:36 PM
As I have expressed in other responses Buchmann would appear to wish to apply restrictions in their T&Cs that are somewhat draconian based on their market position and constrict competition. This may be within legal laws but is not allowing competion in the market to operate naturally, Hattons are to be commended in pushing back on this and hopefully this should that create better pricing and more choice for us as customers

Arguably, BAchmann's T&Cs promote competition (among retailers) to an extent by stopping the big boxshifters squeezing the little local model shops out of the market. In this case by hindering one entity becoming both the dominant retailer and manufacturer, and in the case of the limitation on discounting in the first 90 day (perfectly legal btw as it is time-limited and applied equally to all retailers) by preventing big players using loss-leaders to gain market share and promoting competition on terms other than price such as customer service, and after-care...

I'm always amused on threads like this where there are suggestions that these large multinational companies are operating totally illegally.

Again we also have no idea whether Hatton's have "pushed back" or anything of that ilk. They're not going to throw away the sunk costs of their 66, but the length of time it's been going on suggests that neither company wanted this to be the solution. Neither company wins.

Quote from: njee20 on August 12, 2019, 07:58:39 AM

They're not going to throw away the sunk costs of their 66 ...

Hattons aren't going to toss away a steady stream of income from selling Bachmann products, just because of the sunk costs on one model. In the end it must have been a financial calculation for them. That's what makes it so intriguing.

Let's hope they produce more models in N. Who knows, it might even be the start of a new golden age!  ;)

If they're £100k in on the 66 (which doesn't seem implausible) they need to sell a lot of Bachmann products to recoup that, and they'll know about pre-orders of the 66 which will compound that. Obviously it will have been a financial calculation, but I don't share the sentiment of others that Hatton's are "sticking it to the man" by not throwing away their existing portfolio, and that this is indicative that we'll see a Bachmann-rivalling range from them in due course.

Hello all,

My understanding is that this is less about the 66 (though I am sure that will have irritated the management at Barwell) and more about Hattons supplying their Hattons-brand models - Warwell, RHTT, container flats, 66, Beyer-Garrett etc - to other retailers, thereby becoming a direct competitor to Bachmann.

I believe that it is very clearly stated in their T&Cs that they do not supply competitors. 

Other retailers who commission models, such as Kernow and Trains4U, have not fallen foul of this policy because they sell the models exclusively.

Among big corporations I suspect it's commonplace - it just raises eyebrows in the usually genteel world of model trains!

cheers

Ben A.

The question there is when are they a competitor? Gaugemaster manufacture plenty of things which are retailed through other shops, but not items that are in direct competition with Bachmann. It's a blurry line.

Arguably products like the RHTT/FEA etc are good news for Bachmann, as people will want 66s to haul them. Not so much now...

It's hard to believe that sales of Hattons' own products to other retailers, either now or in the future, would outweigh their loss of Bachmann revenue.

And potentially their own products to end customers, we don't know the exact terms of Bachmann's objections.

Presumably, Bachmann made a policy decision years (if not decades) ago about supplying stock to potential customers whom they regarded as potential or actual competitors.  If so, this would have been done on the basis of projected or potential gains and losses, not just involving one customer but (again, potentially) any & all customers.  It will be a commercial secret as to what further calculations they may have undertaken in the case of Hattons. 
The question that now arises is, what will Hattons do about their likely loss of market penetration, turnover and profit?  Their turnover will undoubtedly decrease, but their fixed overheads (such as rent/mortgage interest, utilities and depreciation) will not.  There are other overheads which may or may not decrease, e.g. wages, if overtime payments change or staff are laid off.  Still others will reduce, e.g. packaging, postage & courier charges. 
If nothing else changes, this leaves Hattons with a problem - do they increase the margin on their sales by reducing the discount they allow customers or do they take the hit completely in their profit after tax, or even in the form of losses reducing reserves?  None of us is in a position to say what this will be.  One thing they must examine, however, is the room for manoeuvre (if any) they have with Bachmann if they change tack with their own products, though they may feel that knuckling under to their supplier's pressure may be impossible to swallow.  This will have to be looked at in the light of their long-term view of the retailer as a producer in the market place as it continues to change and develop.
I await developments with interest.

SheldonC states "None of us is in a position to say....."

How right Sheldon is. So many experts within this thread (some of them writing repeated volumes) seem to know everything but it all seems to be guess work. Maybe we should follow something else from Sheldon "...await developments with interest" rather than pretend to be knowledgeable.

It will not be long before either boredom sets in or some facts become known.

Of course, but people have been speculating for a year. So much discussion on here (and forums the world over) is based on speculation, opinion etc.

If you aren't interested then skip past the thread, I think it's a very interesting dynamic. When there's nothing left to say it'll naturally peter out and die a death, like all the DJM threads did.

Or someone can lock it.

This dispute has been going on for some time, certainly all this year . Hattons would have been able to back down many months ago and presumably carry on as they were. I do know that legal people became involved at some point earlier this year which would of course have made any amicable settlement more difficult. They have however made a business decision to carry on with their plan with full knowledge of Bachmann's position . I think they have made a brave but high risk decision. I wish them all the best.

Gibb's rule 13  :)

Quote from: class37025 on August 12, 2019, 06:22:40 PM
Gibb's rule 13  :)

True indeed.....

Quote from: Roy L S on August 12, 2019, 06:26:36 PM

Quote from: class37025 on August 12, 2019, 06:22:40 PM
Gibb's rule 13  :)

True indeed.....

If Gibbs' Other Rule #1 had been adhered to, Gibbs' Rule #13 would be moot.

I think Hattons have attempted to use one of the 285 Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition and come unstuck. I'm just not sure which one :hmmm:

Am I the only one to think that Hattons becoming a manufacturer could be a total game changer for the industry?

Look at the push that Dapol entering the N gauge market had on the models Bachmann were turning out. Hattons have a trump card of being a seller as well as the manufacturer, so could really start to challenge and put the squeeze on existing manufacturers. Given Bachmann's protracted delivery times, Hattons could have a real chance of becoming a much bigger player, relatively quickly.

Oddly, I think Bachmann's response plays into Hattons hands in some ways - it was stated that the reason Hattons went to self manufacture was the unreliability and ability to get stocks of things like the 66s, primarily from Hornby. How true this is, is of course debatable, but Bachmann are now facing competition from above (Hattons) and below (Hornby) on that model.

I think where they will see it is in relatively new entrants to the hobby - those looking for their first models, who will find big shifters like Hattons online first, and will likely browse their store early in their modelling career, and with Bachmann absent, they are likely to see potential sales shift over to other manufacturers. Sure, experienced modellers will shift their Bachmann purchases over to other suppliers.

I think Bachmann must now be feeling the squeeze - with new entrants popping up all over to challenge their previous dominance in N and OO - we've RevolutioN, Accurascale, Cavalex, Sonic Models, Hattons, as well as commissioners like Rails and Kernow, as well as more established competitors Hornby and Dapol, and more recently Heljan. Some change from back in the late 1990s, early 2000s where it was basically Bachmann or Hornby in OO, and Farish with no competitors in N.

Hattons have the distinct advantage of cutting out the middle man in terms of selling from their own store - meaning that their own sales of these must enjoy a notably higher margin. It's an interesting approach, which must be lucrative.

Interesting times....interesting times....

Cheers,
Alan

Interesting?  Yes.

There may be another side to Hattons' philosophy though.

Going back to the demise of the Signalbox/ Modelzone/ Amerax, when the Signalbox in Rochester was perhaps Hattons major competitor, I was told that one of the problems had been that the success of Amerax was dependent on them having a flow of product from China for distribution in the U.K.  This supply of this product (radio-controlled models) had reduced and they could not afford the rent on their 47? Modelzone shops when they were getting nothing to sell.
Whether this is true or not, one can imagine Hattons' worry about shifting product to maintain income if, as seems to be the case at present, the flow of new models is slowing down and some of those entering the market are not making their products available to them. So what do you do?  Introduce a new line over which you have at least some control and a larger profit margin may be the answer. We have already seen the major retailers getting involved in the second hand market probably for the same reason.
We were told at TINGS last year that Bachman were not interested in N Gauge as it represented only 20% of their U.K. sales. I thought that maybe what he meant was that Bachman were not interested in the U.K. as that represented only a very small percentage of their global sales and their development resources may be better spent elsewhere - say U.S.A?

Will we ever know the whole story?

I am sure it was a dispute based about infidelities between staff members and subsequent hurt feelings as well as aspects of revenge.

Quote from: NinOz on August 13, 2019, 04:03:49 AM
I am sure it was a dispute based about infidelities between staff members and subsequent hurt feelings as well as aspects of revenge.

I don't see it that way at all. It is about Bachmann as an established manufacturer with a full range of models, a design team, a repair team, a marketing team etc having the  high overheads of a traditional manufacturer. A retailer just commissioning models where it sees potential and making a batch will have much lower overheads and be able to sell products more cheaply. It could well be that the Hattons approach will be successful and we might well see the industry change - arguably it has already changed with Revolution trains. It is quite probably today's technology that is allowing this change to happen. Bachmann probably don't have the ability to reduce their costs to be able to compete with these new entrants.
Interesting times.

Perhaps some good will come out of it and it will spur bachmann/Farish into not taking so long between anouncment and stock delivery like they do at the moment.  How many years have we been waiting for the new 8F, and delivery has just been pushed back another 6 months, if Hattons can get their factory to produce on time then I can see them overtaking at least Farish who seem unable to produce anything new and are struggling to get stock of their existing models out of their own Factory, how long have they been out of stock off their own 3F & 4F current models, plus many others, all showing as out of stock at many dealers.

If they can't supply their own models to the dealers they should expect some more enterprising dealers like Hattons to look into supplying their own stock instead.

Farish my well find itself one of the minor players in the n-gauge UK market if it does not pull its socks up soon.

Paul

Quote from: NinOz on August 13, 2019, 04:03:49 AM
I am sure it was a dispute based about infidelities between staff members and subsequent hurt feelings as well as aspects of revenge.

Just like any long running soap opera. This one will roll and roll.

I'm over it  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Dr Al on August 12, 2019, 11:12:22 PM
Am I the only one to think that Hattons becoming a manufacturer could be a total game changer for the industry?

But they aren't becoming a 'manufacturer', are they? They are directly commissioning models from a factory in China, rather than buying from another company which commissions from a factory in China. Of course, Bachmann / Hornby aren't manufactuers either - they commission models from Chinese factories. Dapol seem to be manufacturing a few things themselves again now, but the majority is still commissioned from China.

It remains to be seen whether, given that they will probably be a small customer compared to others which the factory has, they will see the issues with slipping delivery dates which Dapol seem to encounter. Bachmann ought to be in a better position there, as the factories are owned by the same parent company, but in practice they also seem to see delays.

Maybe we should be looking for a new word to describe those who arrange for manufacturers to make products to designs/specifications the client has provided.  "Commissioners" wouldn't appeal to those familiar with UK taxation.  "Instigators" has pejorative connotations.  Any other suggestions?

Quote from: davidinyork on August 13, 2019, 11:30:52 AM
Bachmann / Hornby aren't manufactuers either

Not true for Bachmann - Bachmann are owned by Kader industries ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader ), who own their factories.

As such Bachmann differ from Dapol etc, but I don't see that Hattons differ from say Dapol. We'd all call Dapol a manufacturer, so Hattons too by logical extension.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on August 13, 2019, 11:41:21 AM

Quote from: davidinyork on August 13, 2019, 11:30:52 AM
Bachmann / Hornby aren't manufactuers either

Not true for Bachmann - Bachmann are owned by Kader industries ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader ), who own their factories.

As such Bachmann differ from Dapol etc, but I don't see that Hattons differ from say Dapol. We'd all call Dapol a manufacturer, so Hattons too by logical extension.

Well, you might call companies who commission things a manufacturer, but it's not actually accurate and I don't think you can speak for everyone.

As I said in my post, I am aware that Bachmann have the same parent company as the factories, but they still commission the models from another company in the same group and that doesn't seem to avoid delays (presumably because other companies in the group are commissioning larger quantities so get a higher priority).

Quote from: SheldonC on August 13, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
Maybe we should be looking for a new word to describe those who arrange for manufacturers to make products to designs/specifications the client has provided.  "Commissioners" wouldn't appeal to those familiar with UK taxation.  "Instigators" has pejorative connotations.  Any other suggestions?

Brands?

Quote from: davidinyork on August 13, 2019, 11:49:15 AM
Well, you might call companies who commission things a manufacturer, but it's not actually accurate and I don't think you can speak for everyone.

I'm not sure it really matters the exact words? Generically most folk in the hobby call Dapol a manufacturer, Hornby a manufacturer as they do Bachmann. Hattons are developing products, via whatever mechanism, so to the end user they are effectively a manufacturer as well - the key will what they deliver at what quality, price point, timing and customer service and resulting in what market impact. Bachmann have history of needing a lot of competition to really react (look at the early 2000s with Farish and the speed of releases then), and even then they are undeniably slow.

As such I think we need these kind of shake ups in the markets.

So far in OO Hattons seem to be hitting the mark if the 'P' class and the Barclay's are anything to go by.

Interesting times.

Cheers,
Alan

Yes I'm certainly inclined to agree that saying Dapol aren't a manufacturer because they commission others to produce products to their specification is extremely pedantic (and not really pertinent to the discussion), but that's your prerogative.

I'm not sure I share the view of others that the likes of Hatton's encroaching on Bachmann's territory will cause them to up their game and deliver more products more quickly. I think it's more likely they'll just bow out of British N altogether, which would be a shame. There are already a number of models (and not just in N) they've said they won't reproduce due to cost (Seacows, OO gauge IPAs), and you have to think that given the price rises on other products that list may grow in future.

Quote from: njee20 on August 13, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
There are already a number of models (and not just in N) they've said they won't reproduce due to cost (Seacows, OO gauge IPAs), and you have to think that given the price rises on other products that list may grow in future.

And there are some which they haven't produced for years (e.g. Peaks in N gauge).

But is that expressly because they've said a re-run would cost too much?

That's the case with the Seacows and the IPAs.

Obviously there are hundreds of products they no longer produce.

Quote from: njee20 on August 13, 2019, 12:08:24 PM
But is that expressly because they've said a re-run would cost too much?

Don't know if they've said why - they did announce at least one a few years ago, then cancelled it. There's certainly a demand - although it was their last pre-DCC new model, it's still fairly good and nobody else has produced one.

Quote from: njee20 on August 13, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
I'm not sure I share the view of others that the likes of Hatton's encroaching on Bachmann's territory will cause them to up their game and deliver more products more quickly. I think it's more likely they'll just bow out of British N altogether, which would be a shame.

I'm not sure about that - was it not said not all that long ago that Farish sales were increasing and strong? Does Kader have any history of pulling ranges in any of their countries if not competitive?

Competition has upped Bachmann's quality and the standard of models - Dapol forced that in N, and I'm sure Hornby and others in OO for much longer. Delivery timing has been Bachmann's never ending weakness in N and OO, and nothing seems to have changed that. Moreover, where Hattons has so many trump cards are in retail, customer service and social media - all areas that Bachmann as a more traditional company seem to struggle or be weak.

Another interesting approach from Hattons is the volume of new release. The OO 66 is being released in no less than 34 different number/livery combinations, and that's not counting DCC fitted/ DCC sound versions. That's another completely different approach - Bachmann tend to do 3 or maybe 4 liveries and numbers and then don't re-run models for years after. I'll be interested to see how this approach works - and whether all will appear at once or will be staged in delivery. Of course, not all prototypes have that many variations available, but it's still a step change in the way of doing things.

All interesting times - and hopefully good for us, the consumer. Hattons certainly aren't starting easy with their first N Gauge model of a Garratt!

Cheers,
Alan

Bachmann have said that the Seacows were too expensive to warrant another re run. I have been after Sealions in olive green for the last 5 years and contacted Bachmann direct.

Due to the cost of hand finishing, ie the handrails, cages and hand wheels needing to be fitted by hand they are now no longer cost effective to be produced

Was the jist of the reply I received and as such the cost of second hand sealions are now seriously high but Bachmann said that pricing them to cover cost would put them at over £45 a wagon which they believed no one would pay, however I have paid that for numerous secondhand.

Quote from: davidinyork on August 13, 2019, 12:10:34 PM
Don't know if they've said why - they did announce at least one a few years ago, then cancelled it. There's certainly a demand - although it was their last pre-DCC new model, it's still fairly good and nobody else has produced one.

I'd agree that it seems strange not to re-run these - there's definitely large demand for them if secondhand is anything to go by. They aren't perfect, and could be improved tooling, but are still a solid model.

But Bachmann aren't alone in making strange choices when it comes to re-runs - Dapol have never come back to the Voyager 221s - maybe a slightly older tooling compared to modern, but still very decent, and the demand again appears huge for them, inflating secondhand prices enormously.

I suspect it's all down to factory time - do they spend it on older models; or on new ones that are long lagging behind, something both N manufacturers (Dapol and Farish) are guilty of.

Cheers,
Alan

To a certain extent the subject has drifted more to discussion about Bachmann/Farish than the original Hattons and Farish. As that has gone in circles with no facts emerging (and none likely to) I am locking the thread :locked: