GWR and BR(W) Coach formations

[PaulinSouthMidlands]

Does anyone know what a realistic train formation for the collett and Hawksworth coaches that Dapol and Farish sell.

I know the GWR did not use formal sets like the Southern but did carriages get formed into a set order and what was it?

[Karhedron]

It depends very much on what service you are trying to represent. Named expresses could be anything from 7-14 coaches in length whilst for a cross-country service, 3 coaches might suffice. Although the GWR was somewhat ad-hoc about coaches, certain patterns tended to persist.

One thing about the GWR (and the WR that succeeded it) is that they did not tend to separate vehicles by design. If the carriage working plans called for a corridor composite in a particular rake, it would be just as likely to see a Hawksworth as a Collett there. Matched rakes were not very common apart from named expresses or suburban services. For the former, named expresses often managed rakes of the newest type of stock (although catering vehicles were often older vintages). For suburban services, the GWR did build sets of which the 2-coach B-set is the best known example. There were 3, 4 and 5-coach versions of these non-corridor sets built for commuter services in urban areas that survived until eliminated by DMUs in the late 50s and early 60s.

I am fortunate enough to have a Bristol carriage working program from 1951 from which I have culled several sample formations. Stock would likely have been a mishmash of different Collett designs at this date with a handful of newer Hawksworth and older toplight stock mixed in. Photos from the time show that GWR/WR rakes were rarely uniform except for a handful of toplink expresses or semi-permenent suburban rakes.

These formations date from 1951 but I suspect they originated with the GWR after WW2. Also I suspect many of them did not alter significantly before dieselisation based on photos. All that changed was the stock gradually got newer. The CWP runs to about 60 pages and I have not attempted to replicate it all here. Rather I have picked out some sample formations that are representative of crack expresses, inter-regional-trains, cross-country trains and local workings.

There are a couple of notes on guards' compartments. The GWR and early WR used the terminology "Brake" and "Van" to distinguish between vehicles that just had room for the Guard and those which also included a substantial space for luggage. Thus a Van Third would have more luggage space and less seating than a Brake Third. A modelling example from Hornby Hawkwsorth coaches would be that their Brake Composite is accurately named but that their Brake Third would originally have been termed a Van Third as it features a more substantial Guard's compartment. In order to keep things simple, I have reffered to everything as "brakes" as this is how most manufacturers refer to their products.

The CWP states that where possible, the Guard's compartment shall be marshalled on the outer edge of the formation. I.e. next to the loco if leading and at the end of the train if trailing.

Another interesting feature is the number or trains made of different portions for different destinations. We all know of famous splitting trains such as the Atlantic coast express but examing this CWP shows just how widespread the practice was. Where a train includes separate portions, I have put them on separate lines together with an indication of the destination for that portion. Even trains that did not split passenger accomodation might well include the odd siphon or full-brake being sent on to far flung destinations. This can be handy for space-starved modllers who still want a mainline feel as they can model just a portion of a larger train.

The single commonest formation is the 5 coach corridor set BTK TK CK TK BTK. This crops up on dozens of cross-country workings, often with strengthening vehicles or parcels stock attached. This is closely followed by a smaller cross country 3-car set BCK TK BTK. As can be seen, these sort of workings feature far less first class accomodation than express sets.

Suburban non-corridor sets.
B-set: BC - BC
M-set: BT - T - C - BT
K-set: BT - T - C - C - T - BT
W-set: BC - T - T - T - T - BT

Paddington - Swansea
BTK TK CK CK TK Siphon-G Diner FK CK BTK

Paddington - Bristol
BTK TK CK FK Composite Buffet CK TK BTK

Paddington - Cheltenham
BTK TK CK Composite Diner TK TK BTK

Paddington to Plymouth
BCK Diner (detached at Exeter)
BTK TK CK CK TK (core train)
TK TK (attached at Bristol)
BG (Bristol - Exeter only)

Paddington - Penzance
BTK TK CK Composite Diner TK BTK
BTK TK CK BTK (Kingswear portion)

Paddington - Carmarthen
BCK TK TK TK (Detached at Swansea)
BTK CK CK TK TK BTK

Weymouth to Paddington
PO stowage van (attached at Westbury)
BTK TK FK BTK
TK TK BCK TK (attached at Westbury)

Liverpool - Plymouth
BTK CK TK (attached at Crewe for Kingswear)
BTK CK TK (attached at Crewe)
BTK CK TK BTK (LMR stock)

Penzance - Liverpool
PO Sorting carriage (detached at Bristol)
TK CK BTK (attached at Plymouth)
TK CK BTK
BG (LMS stock)
BG Siphon-G
BG (Detached at Crewe for Glasgow)
BG (Detached at Bristol for Leeds)
BG (Detached at Bristol for Sheffield)

Bristol - Bedminster - Portsmouth circuar working
BTK TK CK TK BTK
Siphon G (Bristol to Portsmouth)
TK TK (Salisbury to Bristol)
Siphon G (Portsmouth to Bristol)
Gas tank (Weymouth to Bristol)

Cardiff - Bristol - Malago Vale circular working
TK BCK

Swindon - Hereford
BCK TK BTK

Cheltenham - Swindon
BTK TK CK BTK

[Newportnobby]

Strewth, Matt
An excellent and comprehensive reply which will help me out a lot.

[PaulinSouthMidlands]

Many thanks for that reply Karhedron/Matt. Definitely one to print to .pdf and save.

What prompted it other than total ignorance of what the western do was that the Dapol Collett Brake third is apparently actually  a Brake Composite unbadged and I'm pretty sure that there would be no trains with two Brake Composites (which you confirmed)

However it looks like from what you say that, provided Farish do one in maroon, you could run a three set with a Hawksworth Brake third and a Collett Third and Brake Compo.

Is it possible that Dapol didn't make a mistake though and some Collett Brake Compos had their first class declassified so would have become brake thirds?

[martink]

Another good source of train formation data is a set of books by Xpress Publishing, if you can manage to get hold of copies...

Train Formations & Carriage Workings of the GWR (all mainlines in 1931)
Operation Cornwall (1957)
Operation Torbay (1957)

[Karhedron]

Is it possible that Dapol didn't make a mistake though and some Collett Brake Compos had their first class declassified so would have become brake thirds?

Hello,

I am not aware of this happening. It is not a mistake on Dapol's part. They have done the same as Bachmann have done with their 00 versions in trying to squeeze 4 types of coach out of 2 basic bodyshells. It is not a mistake, more of a compromise.

You are right that a Dapol brake composite at one and and a Farish Brake 3rd at the other is a good way to get a fairly representative formation and still make use of the old Dapol coaches.

[richard.ferraro23]

Hi,

This is a very useful post and very comprehensive as was previously said.

However, I am a newbie and unaccustomed to the various letter formations, and therefore don't understand the difference between B, K, BK, BCK etc... 

Is anyone able to do an easy to understand crib sheet to help me out?

Thanks

Rich

[crewearpley40]

Rich. @richard.ferraro23. Google mk1 abbreviations. Look for british rail coach designations but there are many variations in designs, roof, toilets positioning, corridors, brake Van's,  chassis , bogies etc

[Karhedron]

Here we go, a handy list of abbreviations all in one place.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations

[crewearpley40]

Thanks matt big help. I'm not an expert @Karhedron , on the GW but I'm not sure if Richard is seeking steam days ex gwr or br Swindon stock I only know br stock post mk 1 onwards.

[longbow]

Interesting too to discuss how the limited selection of ex-GWR WR stock can be supplemented with Mk1s and coaches from other regions.   

[Karhedron]

Thanks matt big help. I'm not an expert @Karhedron , on the GW but I'm not sure if Richard is seeking steam days ex gwr or br Swindon stock I only know br stock post mk 1 onwards.

The GWR and BR abbreviations are largely the same. There are only a few things to be aware of. BR abolished third class some time in the 50s (I think around the time maroon livery was introduced). This means that coaches which had been called thirds became seconds.

I.e. BTK - > BSK

The other thing is that the GWR used the term "Van" for vehicles with a large or complete guards compartment. So  vehicles that would be called a Brake Third or Full Brake on BR were called Van Third or Van respectively by the GWR. Just to confuse things further, the GWR did use the term "Brake" but only if the guards compartment was small and took up less than about a third of the coach.

Thus the classic GWR B-set as modelled by Dapol was formed of a pair of Brake Composites in both GWR and BR days. However the K41 Full Brake produced by the N Gauge Society was simply called a Van when introduced by the GWR.

However given that only a handful of pre-nationalisation vehicles are available RTR, this is not a big issue. Most models sold use the BR terminology.

[Karhedron]

Interesting too to discuss how the limited selection of ex-GWR WR stock can be supplemented with Mk1s and coaches from other regions.   

This topic could fill a book if you felt so inclined. In GWR days, trains of mixed stock were a rarity. It was not uncommon to see trains of other companies stock, particularly at places where more than one company served. Oxford for instance was well known for being a place where you could see trains from all the Big 4 in one place. However the coaches stayed with their own type with little or no mixing.

After nationalisation, the picture slowly started to change. "Useful" vehicles such as full brakes being the first to wander widely. What you could see where often varied from year to year. Mk1 stock only started to appear in quality on the WR in the mid 50s with catering vehicles only starting to appear in the early 60s. This meant that many crack expresses continued to use GWR catering coaches until the early 60s, even though the rest of the train was composed of Mk1 stock.

The transition from GWR stock to BR stock is easier to describe with specific examples than general trends as you could probably find more exceptions than rules. The WR (like the GWR before it) liked to drop complete rakes of new stock onto principal express duties and then cascade older stock down onto steadily less prestigious services and this is a good pattern to model. If you are modeling the transition era, Mk1 stock is most likely to be seen on express trains while older ex-GWR stock will be more common on secondary services.

[crewearpley40]

Thanks that has improved my knowledge

[longbow]

Interregional services would regularly bring complete rakes of "foreign" carriage stock onto the WR, so that's a good excuse to run Stanier or Gresley coaches.

The carriage workings for Torbay in summer 1957 show a large number of exclusively LM formations, a couple of NE formations and one of mixed LM and NE stock. Only one WR train - the Devonian express - specifies BR standard stock.