Dapol "Flying Scotsman" Set

[Phoenix]

 

Hi All,

Now that "Windmill Hill" is nearing completion, I really need to think about planning a bigger layout, and am thinking about a door layout, inspired by those I have seen here, particularly Jon's excellent "Deansmoor" layout.

This means I need to get something bigger loco wise, and in my mind, the most famous loco in the world is the "Flying Scotsman", so I need one 

I am not a great fan of apple green liveries, so have been looking at this set .....

https://railsofsheffield.com/a3-flying-scotsman-60103-br-green-early-crest-train-pack-JJJA31237

This seems great value for money, especially as all the coaches are light bar fitted, but before I commit, may I ask a few questions ?

1. I think it best to get the set first, before I lay track, to make sure the track I lay will be OK. Will the Flying Scotsman be alright on the curves dictated by a door layout ?

2. I know about rule one, but I would like to be sort of consistent era wise. The set is B.R. Green Early Crest. Does this mean any other locos I buy need to be B.R. Early Crest, or if I see for example a nice loco in L.N.E.R. livery I could buy and run that as well ?

3. On a similar theme, could I run Diesel as well ?

4. If I lay the track so that the Flying Scotsman will run, if I get something smaller later, something like this ....

https://railsofsheffield.com/ivatt-class-2mt-br-lined-black-late-crest-2-6-0-locomotive-46443-JJJA30654

can I assume that it will run OK on the track laid, or should I get it first ?

5. Lastly, has anyone got one ?  I have seen reviews, and they seem good, but nice to know first hand 

Sorry if these may seem silly questions, but the step to a "grown up" layout is a big one, so I am sure there will be loads of even sillier questions on the way 

Kind regards
Kevin

[Gyppy101]

I've got the set you mention and it is excellent.  Loco runs well and coaches are great to look at in the dark and poor light.   The loco will take curves of at least 10 inch radius.

[PostModN66]

Now that "Windmill Hill" is nearing completion, I really need to think about planning a bigger layout, and am thinking about a door layout, inspired by those I have seen here, particularly Jon's excellent "Deansmoor" layout.

Hi Kevin,

What a great compliment, thanks 

I can't help you with the Flying Scotsman, but a couple of pointers about doors and door-sized layouts.

Firstly, the one draw-back of using a door is that you can't easily use conventional point motors mounted under the track.  This is not a problem for me as I don't like this system; I would use wire-in-tube, (or on Deansmoor point motors above the board hidden by scenery).  It's just something you need to work out at an early stage.  Doors are brilliant in almost every other respect!

The second thing is that the size is just big enough to have a double track mainline (which I assume you would want for Flying Scotsman).  I enjoy this constraint as it gives a planning challenge.  On Deansmoor, at one end the mainline curves are R1 and R2 (9 in and 10.5 inch) which as the board is 30" wide gives a 7" or so margin to the edge of the baseboard.  If you use wider radius curves the track will of course be forced nearer the baseboard edge which is a less satisfying look.

Using a tighter radius for the hidden parts gives you the scope to have a wider radius on the visible curves and therefore have a pleasing transition, rather than ruler-straight track changing to a harsh constant-radius turn.

So you have some choices:

You could have R1/R2 curves, nice transitions, and accept that some bigger steam locos would only run on the outside line
You could have R2/R3 and accept tracks nearer the edge (but still, say 4" away) more limited transitions
You could have luxurious R3/R4 which would provide the best running but pretty much the track would be up against the edge of the board, no scope for transitional curves.

I would suggest that you do get the Flying Scotsman before you advance your plans to far and test it on some different track radii. 

For some people the challenges of door size would be unsatisfactory; but on your Windmill Hill layout you have used tight radii and minimum space thinking, so I reckon a door-sized layout might just be up your street.  I would love to see what you would do with one, so I would encourage you to do it!

On the topic of mixing early and late crests etc., I am certainly no expert on steam-era liveries, but I think it is pretty safe to say that not everything would be repainted as soon a a new livery came into force.  The only thing is that the more glamorous locos would be the most likely ones to be repainted first, so your Flying Scotsman would be in the latest livery of your chosen range, more humble locos would be more likely to be in previous liveries (and more heavily weathered if you go in for such things).

Cheers Jon 

[Newportnobby]

From my limited knowledge I don't think an LNER liveried loco would be found in the early crest era as LNER was before nationalisation into British Railways. However, plenty of early crest locos found their way into the late crest era. Maybe the only way round this would be to model a heritage preserved railway. Some very early diesels like the LMS 'twins' carried LMS livery but really you'd need to google any diesel you might want to see when it was first introduced as the vast majority came after the Modernisation Plan of 1955.
I have the excellent Farish class 2MT and it runs round the 9" radius curves/small code 55 electrofrog points on my branch line with no issues.
Hope this helps a little

[PostModN66]

From my limited knowledge I don't think an LNER liveried loco would be found in the early crest era as LNER was before nationalisation into British Railways. However, plenty of early crest locos found their way into the late crest era. Maybe the only way round this would be to model a heritage preserved railway. Some very early diesels like the LMS 'twins' carried LMS livery but really you'd need to google any diesel you might want to see when it was first introduced as the vast majority came after the Modernisation Plan of 1955.
I have the excellent Farish class 2MT and it runs round the 9" radius curves/small code 55 electrofrog points on my branch line with no issues.
Hope this helps a little

Hi Mick,

I am very hazy on this - was the "early crest" the first livery on British Railways in 1948, or was there one before it?  "Early" crest seems to imply the first, but you never know!! 

Did they make a concerted effort to repaint big four locos into BR livery in 1948?

We need someone who really knows..........

Cheers Jon 

[Gyppy101]

This link might help:-

https://thebeautyoftransport.com/2015/02/18/lions-and-wheels-british-railways-lion-emblems-1949-1964/

[Safety Engineer]

As from the 1st January 1948 the 'old' company name eg LMS was over painted with BRITISH (SPACE) RAILWAYS until the cycling Lion was decided on. Think there was a never to be decided emblem to go in the space. Guess some locos never got rebranded as I have a DVD showing the Upton on Severn branch train in 1962 hauled by a pannier tank with GWR on the tank.

Martin

[johnlambert]

I have a Dapol Flying Scotsman, which is quite sensitive to poor track and tight curves, I would have thought that if Scotsman can cope with anything you lay then other locos should be fine.

As for liveries, I'm fairly sure that there would be an overlap between locos carrying LNER and locos carrying the British Railways early emblem (plus some in LNER livery but with "British Railways" in place of the company initials).  I don't think locos were pulled from service just for adding a new "corporate identity" so it would only be when the loco was due a full repaint that it would get the new livery.  I know on the Western Region you could see locos in GWR livery pulling trains of crimson/cream coaches.

[Hiawatha]

Certainly true that locos did continue with the LNER colours for some time after the formation of British Railways, but the locos didn't carry their pre-war numbers anymore.

Flying Scotsman was renumbered from 4472 twice already by LNER (to 502 and 103) before becoming 60103 with BR.

[Newportnobby]

I am very hazy on this - was the "early crest" the first livery on British Railways in 1948, or was there one before it?  "Early" crest seems to imply the first, but you never know!! 

Did they make a concerted effort to repaint big four locos into BR livery in 1948?

We need someone who really knows..........

Cheers Jon 

I think the link posted by Gyppy101 explains it all quite well. I knew the full words 'British Railways' were used before the early crest but can't recall any RTR steamers carrying such on their sides/tenders.

[Hiawatha]

Three RTR steamers with BRITISH RAILWAYS tender lettering are Farish's malachite green Merchant Navy "New Zealand Line" or Dapol's A4 "William Whitelaw" in garter blue, and the ultramarine blue "Merlin". (I am sure there are more.) These would probably be okay next to locos with early BR crest.

[martyn]

Express Passenger engines were 'shopped' at about 2 yearly intervals, goods tender and also tanks about three to four years. So yes, there were overlaps between liveries, and has been said, some individual locos missed these 'average' shoppings, and so could be seen with older liveries long after the introduction of newer ones. Don't forget that some express passenger locos were re-liveried blue shortly after nationalisation for trials, and at least some had cream coloured BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender

Martyn

[Safety Engineer]

LMS locos gained a M prefix initially prior to having 40000 added to their numbers. GWR numbers remained as was due to the cost of replacing all those cast number plates. Not sure what happened to the SR or LNER locos as they had funny numbering schemes to my mind.
Basically ex SR occupied 30000 series, ex LNER occupied 60000 series, diesels occupied 10000 series and electrics the 20000 series.
Loco liveries remained as per the old company colours initially, however don't forget a lot of locos were still in wartime Black with just the company initials on them.

Martin

[martyn]

LNER engines gained an E and Southern S, I think. However, I'm not sure that many actually did, and if they did, it may have been done at their home shed.

Note that BRITISH RAILWAYS was in the font that the owning company used at the time; LMR plain grotesque, ER Gill Sans, SR sunshine, WR block Egyptian. This was later standardised to Gill sans.

martyn

[Phoenix]

 

Thank you all so much for your help.

I must admit that a lot was a bit beyond me,  but I think I have sussed out what I need to know.

I think this is about it in a nutshell......

Some steam locos may not have been painted in new liveries immediately, and so may have been seen alongside early crest BR, but not late crest.

If I want to have some diesel locos, I should stick with era 5, which is 1957 to 1966, and I will be able to run them with BR late crest steam locos

The "Flying Scotsman is still awesome !

This will be my guide to buying locos for my Door layout, which is a long way off. Locomotives will be my main concern to buy, as at present I only have a GWR Terrier, and a GWR 64xx (with autocoach) I am planning to start buying now as and when I can afford it, so when it comes to planning the layout, I will have some stock to play with and  make sure the track will work.

I bought my first for the new layout today    . This is it ......

https://railsofsheffield.com/ivatt-class-2mt-br-lined-black-late-crest-2-6-0-locomotive-46443-JJJA30654

Once again thank you all for your help, which should help me in choosing my locos...... Coaches will be a whole new minefield 

With all best wishes
Kevin