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I owned a Commodore 64 computer throughout the 80's and well into the 90's. My daughters grew up with it. Just out of curiousity the other day I googled it, and, not at all surprisingly,there's heaps of stuff about it. It made me realise just how many of those games I had! literally hundreds!

Apart from the huge nostalgia kick both me and my daughters got from the exercise, the main thing that struck me was just how much ingenious programmers were able to milk out of that machine. Any other ex 8-bitters on the forum?

Yes, I remember that machine. You would find no shortage of buyers, I'm sure. Actually, I'm sorta half thinking of getting myself another 64!! When I upgraded to a 'real' computer back in 1997, I sold my 64 with it's chocolate brown floppy drive, chocolate brown printer, manuals and hundreds of programmes for the princely sum of $300!

Or you could always download an emulator (CCS64 is one of the better ones) and run your PC or laptop as one. You can also get a lot of the older games as ROM's of the internet too.

Actually I noticed that there are emulators out there. One thing that I'm not sure of, however - a lot of those old classic games used a joystick, and if I recall, they had some sort of weird plug to connect to the computer. Where would I plug a joystick into a laptop?

In CCS64, you can define keys to take the place of the joystick. Not sure if a USB one would work as I've never tried.

I've also got one of the C64's that are contained inside a replica Kempston Pro joystick. You can attach it directly to your TV and play the likes of Impossible Mission, California Games, Winter Games, Uridium and a few others.

Cool!

still have my commodore and hundreds of games stored in the attic along with a zx spectrum :Dgod how annoying were those games when loading them :D jet set willy loyal :claphappy:

Quote from: bealman on March 29, 2013, 11:12:52 PMAny other ex 8-bitters on the forum?

:hellosign: Yep, started with a ZX81 and programed it in its Sinclair Basic, interesting but slow. Soon graduated to programing its Z80 microprocessor in its own machine code(hex) brill.

Much later (new wife- new family - finances - violins) aquired the horridly over-priced BeebB with its (earlier generation 6502 micro but) better interface to the real world with an on-board a/d interface.
Lots of fun controlling temperature and humidity in poultry incubators and monitoring environment temperatures and seismograph outputs etc&etc !
Ah, those were the days, all so much more complicated now in Windoze,,

Cool stuff! Yeah... the Beeb machine. Even had it's own set of TV shows and a book to go with the TV series, if I recall. Eek.

I originally began with a VIC-20 and purchased all these cottage industry add-ons, such as a memory expansion card that would plug into the back, giving you an awesome 28K!!!

At the time, the Voyager probe was approaching Saturn, so I used all that memory up and programmed in BASIC a simulated approach to Saturn! Oh, and it was plugged into our 70's TV at the time, so I did it all sitting on the floor. Ah them's was the days..... :whistle:

Dunno what happened to that. Must have been sold with the VIC when I upgraded to the state of the art C64.

Anyway, I know that the cottage industry also supplied a lot of C64 add-ons, including devices to control the real world. I believe there were a couple of train driver simulations around too. In fact I think I had one.

Later in the life of the C64, someone came up with GEOS, which if I recall stood for Graphical Environment Operating System, which endowed the C64 with a Macintosh (just new out) style operating system.

Heady days, indeed. But, as I said when I kicked off this post, it is amazing what clever programmers managed to achieve on this machine..

Enough nostalgia... if I do download a C64 emulator it'll probably get me off restoring my layout. Dangerous. Plus I have this vision in me head that if I retro my laptop to C64 status, it might stay there. Eek! :computerangry:

I still own my Commodore 64 as well.I got mine for my 15th birthday in 1984.As we all know there was fierce rivalry between the main platforms,the C64 and ZX Spectrum.Before the C64,I shared a ZX spectrum+ with my younger brother for a few years before I got my C64.In our house,my brother called the C64 a rather derogatory Commodore blocky four due to its slightly blocky graphics,obviously.What could never be criticised was its sound chip,with what was at the time,absolutely brilliant.

My retort on my brother giving the C64 its nickname was to label the ZX Spectrum,a ZX Spackertrum.It was almost 30 years ago so nothing offensive was meant by this.

Over the years there have been simolar rivalries with machines such as the Atari ST and Commodore 128,Sega Megadrive and Nintendo Cube,Sony Playstation,xbox and Sega Dreamcast and latterly,the Sony Playstation 3 and Xbox 360.

I still own my Sega Megadrive,Xbox,Sega Dreamcast and Xbox 360 and will continue to do so for some time as retro gaming is an up and coming craze that is sure to push up values of these consoles in the future,thsn I might sell them.

With regards to the C64,my favourite games were Revs,which was a big success on the BBC Micro and Acorn Electron,Elite which was also first released on BBC Micro and Acorn Electron and other games such as Pitstop 2,Way of the Exploding Fist,Rambo,Match Day and lots of others.I have two shoe boxes full of games in my bedroom wardrobe.Mine was the one that used a Commodore Data Recorder,not the floppy disc drive so I had to wait for the thing to load up from an audio tape.

I used the C64 on a regular basis right up to 1993,at which point,my wife and I split up and I could buy a Megadrive without being told off.

Actually,what made me buy the Megadrive was when Sega brought out VirtuaRacing for it.I also owned the next generation Sega machine that came out before the Dreamcast hich I can't remember the name of right now,but it had a kickbottom cobsole conversion of such arcade greats as Virtua Cop 1 and 2,Virtua Fighter,Daytona USA and last but definately not least,the mighty Sega Rally Championship.This was and still is a fantastic rally simulation game that would still stand up against the Colin McCrae (RIP)Rally series to this day.I still find myself having a go if I see one in an amusement arcade although I haven't seen one or been in an amusement arcade for some time now.

Certainly brings back memories.

Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

Thanks for that contribution! Seems like a lot of us trainheads were also computerheads even back then! Dear oh dear, Pete - 15 in 1984. Eek that's was two years after I was laid in bed next to the missus saying "I refuse to get up yet 'cos it's not 11am therefore I ain't thirty until 11am and that's when I'll get up."

But I love the nostalgia. I think when I look at all these old games with their chunky graphics and the famous sounds from the SID chip, it's like listening to a song from that era on the radio. Reminds you of what you were doing at the time. I feel that way when I look through old model railway mags, also.

But, my point remains that it is amazing that programmers worked their way into every software nook & cranny (so to speak) and squeeze every last drop out of a machine that was almost obsolete when it was released. For what it was, it had a longevity thanks in no small part to those very innovative (and probably very whacky) programmers.

:beers: Cheers!  :headbang:

I remember having a Commodore Keyboard given to me and plugged it into my TV set, I started typing and I thought wow we have got a Computer  :doh: what a moron  ??? :confused2:

I remember when or around the time I got my C64,I used to go into Boots,which at that time sold TV's,video's,hi fi and computers as well as toilettries,make up,developed films and was a dispensing chemists,and drooled over the C64's graphics and sound capabilities.Now,I remember one day,some chap came in and loaded a floppy disc into the disc drive and after a bit of whirring,the screen showed some writing that moved about.You're probably thinking that this isn't very remarkable,but what came out of the speakers was something to behold.It was a note perfect rendition of Harold Faltermeyer's Axel F,the music from Beverley Hills Cop 2 if memory serves me right,starring Eddie Murphy.The music was produced by a chap called Rob Hubbard,again,if memory serves me right.

There was also a games writer who produced many top C64 games called Alan Minter,who looked as mad as a badger from the pictures I remember.

Who remembers some of the magazines that went with the various different computers?

I had a paper round at the time and I always got my monthly copy of Crash! for the Spectrum before I got my C64 and Zzap64! after I got it.I thought this was the bee's knees at the time.

I also remember the program listings that some magazines printed for simple games for you to program yourself using BASIC computer language,I never got the hang of machine code,but they never worked!

I'd spend hours typing in all the listings correctly only for it to start then after a few seconds an error message came on screen,so I would check the listings meticulously for my mistakes only to find none.So with that,I just didn't bother saving the listings to tape,then a month or two later,in the letters pages,someone would write in with one single number error on line 754 of data that was wrong.Always a slap to the head moment out of frustration!

Its funny how these things come flooding back.

Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

Cheers, Pete - I have exactly the same sort of memories. I used to get an American magazine every month which I think was called Commodore User or something like that. Anyway, it was a thick, quality magazine. One month it came with pages upon pages of machine code you could type in which resulted in a word processor specifically for the machine, ie. able to handle the graphics characters printed on the side of the keys, and was able to talk to Commodore printers. Anyway, I meticulously typed it in night after night, and lo and behold it worked! I was actually still using that word processor when I got rid of the machine over 10 years later! I still have documents I printed out with it.

Anyway, Dave - nothing wrong with that... after all, the blue screen would come up with "READY" and you could type!  :laugh3:

Well after my useless crack at doing BASIC programs,I just reverted to the standard and very short listings that comprised:

10 PRINT"whatever"
20 GOTO 10

So it'd print whatever down the left hand side of the screen,sometimes I even added a line of programming that made it go diagnolly down the screen of varying speeds and also changing the colour of writing,borders and screen,such was the prowess of my programming genius!!

Pete

:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

Cool! Cool! Cool! Cool! Cool!.....  :D

I got mine in 1983, just when it got really popular and you couldn't get the tape decks for love nor money. Ended up having to play cartridge games (Radar Rat Race was the first one) until I bought an after market adapter for using (generally poorly) an ordinary tape player.

I got my first Commodore tape deck from Fine Fare (another name from the past) Hyper-store (remember them). I think it cost £50 in 1984 which was a hell of a lot then for a poor student.

I also used to program using the BASIC, because part of my studies included computer programming in BASIC, FORTRAN and I think we did a small amount of COBOL.

Didn't half think it was the bees-knees, especially because of its full size keyboard, cool graphics (all the hype about it using sprites) and its massive memory compared to the ZX Spectrum (my brother-in-law had a 16K Spectrum which he upgraded himself to 48K).

Seem to remember the best thing I ever bought for it was a speech synthesizer so the games could now even talk to you!!  :goggleeyes:

I eventually sold it along with all my games in 1989. We were getting married in May of that year and SWMBO thought I was selling it to put towards the wedding. Bought my first CD player with the proceeds, as I wanted to be able to buy some CD's and spread jam over them and see them still play (it must be true - it was on "Tomorrow's World)  :D.

My introduction to the C64 was at work - where my boss succeeded in setting up a bank of them to control automatic test equipment (ATE) for the various products we made (Security alarms).
Prior to that he had managed to get one ATE system running with a Sinclair something or other
Eventually the products being tested became too sophisticated for the C64s and we upgraded (to "proper" custom ATE).
I inherited one of the C64s, with hard drive, printer, etc and my son cut his computing teeth on it, before we passed it on to a centre for those with learning difficulties.

Yeh rub it in, we never had a Commodore 64 vic20 or anything remotely like that. We never even got an atari. We only got colour tv in 1985 and mum and dad bought an new electric stove and oven no more going out and chopping wood on a Sunday the same year.
BUT I had a train set.
Can't understand why I'm so far behind in the IT stakes.
Bart

I learned to programme on a Commodore Pet, same version of basic without the colour and sound bells and whistles. We got one at work and I taught myself to program it in my spare time.

I even managed to do some 6502 machine code................

All forgotten now.

Heh heh heh Bart! Just like me... had to lick road clay oft' road! But I did have a train set. Well, 20 years prior to the C64, anyway. Triang RULES. Britannia and Pullman set. With smoke!  :laugh3:

Hey, NTrain - PETS. Those were the funny little computer made of white metal with the trendoid cool shaped little monitor built on top of them. Whoohoo, this IS memory lane.

They did indeed have a 6502 processor - generally regarded at the time as being better than the Z80 chip.

Yep, we're getting old (or I am) but it's interesting to hear from railway modellers who were going through all this stuff. I personally am glad I did - an exciting time.

And I am hugely impressed by you writing machine code for the 6502, NTrain!  :thumbsup:

Ah the 1980s computer scene - remember it well.  Never owned a C64 as I was not in to games (then or now).  Did you know you can buy a new C64?  See the following...

http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Home.aspx (http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Home.aspx)

Personally I started on a ZX81, moved on to a ZX Spectrum with Microdrive, Acorn Electron, Amstrad CPC, Atari ST and then world of PCs.  Ah happy days.

Still program the 128K Spectrum for fun (did I just write that?).  Got a Windows based IDE that I develop in and then run the resultant code on a Nintendo DSi XL running the ZXDS emulator.

Paddy
 

Quote from: bealman on March 30, 2013, 09:56:36 AM
And I am hugely impressed by you writing machine code for the 6502, NTrain!  :thumbsup:

We had an apprentice start working for us and he had done a course at college. He showed me some of the basics and the Commodore manual had a lot of information. I had to enter the code in Hex and spent a week writing my first set of code.

Everyone gathered round to find out what marvel I had come up with.

Everyone stood with bated breath.

I loaded the code and prepared myself to press the enter key.

and.......................................

The screen cleared.

I had written my own clear screen command.

No-one was immpressed. But I was.  :D

Quote from: NTrain on March 30, 2013, 10:35:36 AM
I had written my own clear screen command.

No-one was immpressed. But I was.  :D

It's so much easier in BASIC:

10 CLS

:D

As a wee lad, back in the day, I had the fortune to be presented with an Acorn Electron and a Plus 1, one Christmas. I used to copy games directly from books from the library, though never bothered to learn what much of the code actually did, at that time. Though, since getting a bit older, I found a piece of software called DarkBASIC a few years ago. It was rather fun to actually learn some programming, finally!

:D

Quote from: Pete Mc on March 30, 2013, 04:30:13 AM
I got mine for my 15th birthday in 1984.

You're the same vintage as me then ;)

I've got a ZX Spectrum 48k, not that many games though as I was always quite picky about what games I bought, but the ones that stand out for using the Spectrum to its max were Psytron and Codename:MAT. Also have an Atari 2600 console although not the original one I had unfortunately, that was the 'woody' version but it went bang after the mains plug got accidentally pulled out of the back while it was on :( Have the later silver version now but still love games like Space Invaders, Asteroids, Adventure, Dodgem, Indy 500, and of course the game it ALWAYS came with - Combat :D

Having tried Playstations and Eggboxes I'm not impressed - the graphics are stunning yes, but the games have lost that simple playability that made the old consoles so fun :thumbsup:


Paul

I started with a VIC-20 back in 1983, with all of 3.5k onboard memory (though we pushed the boat out and purchased a 3K expansion cartridge). Brilliant first computer which lasted us a few years until we got the new all-singing and dancing Amstrad CPC464.  :)

After starting all this off, I can't believe I just spent a good 15 minutes typing in a post all about the great days of computing, and replying to you people..... but I lost the lot!!  :doh:

I really don't know what I did, it was about six paragraphs long and I'm st*ffed if I can get it back (Just as well, I can hear the collective moans). So much for my computer prowness.

Anyway, I'll try again but will shorten it. Paddy - ah yes, the Amstrad. Wasn't that the first 'independent' computer that could run Domestos? If you are still programming a Spectrum for fun, I hope it is model railway oriented!  :thumbsup: Your last sentence in that post is lost on me, however.  :worried:

NTrain - if you cleared a screen it would have impressed me too. I remember attending a computer course at Durham University as part of my studies back in 1971 and it would take about 100 punchcards to achieve that. The punched bits made good 00 scale bricks, by the way.

Yep, 508111 - 10 CLS would do the trick.... I think I must have punched that in with me last post!

Seriously, if anyone can tell me how to recover all the typing that I thought I'd sent but then it didn't show up on the Forum, I'm all ears, 'cos it's not the first time I've done it.  :computerangry:

Cheers, George.

With long posts I always type out in Word then copy and paste into reply box on forum, lost too many long posts in the past to do it any other way ;)


Paul

Remember when the likes of Smiths and Dixons had all the computers on display to try? Sinclair, Commodore, Memotech, Oric, Lynx, etc...?

Those of us of a certain age may have popped in after school and typed the following...

10 PRINT "WH SMITHS IS RUBBISH!!";
20 GOTO 10

:P

 :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:

That's one of the cleaner things we typed yes :D


Paul

 :laughabovepost: Yeah, we used to have the same thing here too - the chemists and stationary shops, etc. - wasn't it weird? Actually I wrote a program for the VIC-20 with a Santa Claus landing on a roof with snow and stuff, advertising the VIC-20, and managed to persuade a local stationary shop here in Oz to put it on their counter over the build up to Christmas, and they paid me A$50! I was so totally chuffed! (Especially as it doesn't snow here at Christmas!)

By the way,Sprintex, good tip. Will do that in future.  :thumbsup:  :thankyousign:

Ohhh what a thread !!! Ohhh the nostalgia ! Brings a tear to my eye as I look across the room to where my BeebB still sits by its monitor with a lead still going out to the outhouse to the incubators !!!!

Quote from: bealman
Cool stuff! Yeah... the Beeb machine. Even had it's own set of TV shows

and sent accompanying programs over Teletext.

Quotethe Voyager probe was approaching Saturn,

gosh, even more nostalgia! Look where they now, about to leave the solar system http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21866532 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21866532)

Quotesuch as a memory expansion card that would plug into the back, giving you an awesome 28K!!!

Oh yes, the ZX81 had a devilish frustrating expansion pack to upgrade from 1K to , oh errr I forgot- was it 32K or 64K ? Whichever, it seemed vast !! But you'd spend minutes loading a prog from cassette tape only to have the exp.pack wobble and crash the lot :(

QuoteThey did indeed have a 6502 processor - generally regarded at the time as being better than the Z80 chip.

That could be a whole other debate! The Z80 had a much larger more powerful instruction set, more registers and faster clock . But it needed that faster clock to handle the more complex operations involved in those instructions. So the 6502 with reduced set was able to hold its own in many respects.
I preferred hex coding on the Z80, but perhaps that was cos I started on that. By the time I got the BeebB(6502) I also got an assembler with it, so mostly bypassed hexing the 6502 !

Hands up who remembers Elite, the space trading simulator ? Amazing graphics for the day and a great incentive to learning assembler to see how Bell and Braben had squeezed it all in !

Yeah.. thats a long time ago and I did Z80 stuff primarily, then Amiga/Atari-ST stuff for Adventure International/Horrorsoft, then went to university and got a proper job  :D

Alan

RChook,the memory expansion pack for the ZX81 took it from a rather meek 1k to a stratospheric 16k,which is what the old rubber keyed ZX Spectrum started off with.Only problem with the original spectrum was the wires under the keys broke,frequently.We had a later Spectrum+ which had the Sinclair QL keyboard and case styling.

Sprintex,having read that you have experience with Playstations and Xbox's,I do too.As you say though,they are very pleasing to the eye and this does sometimes affect playability,not necessarily due to the programmers doing too much graphics work,but because the game is flawed before it is even started.Everyone is trying to add a bew twist to an already tried and tested genre.I personnally love racing games,so over the years I have played Colin McCrae's excellent rally games,produced by Codemasters.Over the last few years and after his untimely death it was named Colin McCrae:Dirt then just Dirt with the awful voice of some american bloke whose surname is Pastrani or something like that.We had the lovely original F1 on the original Playstation and Gran Tourismo which both got more elaborate with all their options and less playable.I never bought  Playstation 3 but I do own an Xbox 360 and have to say that console racing on this is still very much alive and kicking.There is the Forza Motorsport series,with the latest version being Forza Horizon,and in a couple of months we have a new version of Racedriver Grid called,wait for it,Grid 2.I played Racedriver Grid to death,it was fantastic so when this game comes out I will definately be buying it and previews are saying it'll be epic.

Later on I think I shall go up and fish out my boxes of C64 games and see what I have.

Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

Quote from: Pete Mc on March 30, 2013, 12:56:50 PM
RChook,the memory expansion pack for the ZX81 took it from a rather meek 1k to a stratospheric 16k,

Ah yes, thanks, you are right the Sinclair pack was a thin upright top-heavy wobbly 16k job. It's slowly coming back to me, the 32k and 64k packs came later by a 3rd party vendor and were in a horizontal slimline form much less prone to wobble !

I think the only time I enjoyed playing driving games on the PS2 was at my old job where we had a PS2 linked to a projector in the test room. You could sit and play WRC with force-feedback steering wheel, pedalset, and the game projected onto the entire blank wall of the office  8)

(http://www.sprintexnet.co.uk/Images/driving%20smiley.gif)


Paul

Quote from: RChook on March 30, 2013, 01:11:00 PM

Quote from: Pete Mc on March 30, 2013, 12:56:50 PM
RChook,the memory expansion pack for the ZX81 took it from a rather meek 1k to a stratospheric 16k,

Ah yes, thanks, you are right the Sinclair pack was a thin upright top-heavy wobbly 16k job. It's slowly coming back to me, the 32k and 64k packs came later by a 3rd party vendor and were in a horizontal slimline form much less prone to wobble !

Memotech went up to a vast 256K banked in the end if I remember rightly.

Yep, those were the days of 'proper' computing. It was an exciting time as it was a new concept.
It was the era that you spent time programming the computer to do something rather than like nowadays just pushing a button as it's already done for you. And most of it was done in peoples' bedrooms and not in big plush offices as is done today.
It made multi-millionares of some of the early programmers.
What ever happened to them?

Never had a Commodore but, like many others, I started out with a Spectrum, then upgraded to an Amstrad with - wait for it - a built in disc drive - Wow. I wrote many of my own programmes for both of them and even wrote a financial reporting programme that I used on a £5 million project in the middle of the African bush. Happy days.

I had a 48k Spectrum and a 48k Oric.
The sound chip on the Oric was excellent. A full 8 channel, not the beeps you got from the Spectrum.

I used to convert basic programs from one to the other.

When I think back to the sort of games the programmers used to squeeze out of those machines, by comparison, today's programmers do seem very lazy and sloppy. They've got so much available but some of the recent(ish) games I've played are worse than those on the Spectrum when it first came out.

There is a very good free version of Elite, Oolite

http://www.oolite.org/ (http://www.oolite.org/)

There are some great games for mobile phones though. This is my current favourite timewaster

http://www.sticksports.com/games/stick-tennis/ (http://www.sticksports.com/games/stick-tennis/)

Quote from: bealman on March 30, 2013, 11:23:40 AMPaddy - ah yes, the Amstrad. Wasn't that the first 'independent' computer that could run Domestos? If you are still programming a Spectrum for fun, I hope it is model railway oriented!  :thumbsup: Your last sentence in that post is lost on me, however.  :worried:

Hi George,

Depends on which Amstrad you are thinking of (I have owned/used most of them).  Back in the 80s I worked for a computer store so had access to almost everything including MSX (remember those?), Amiga and so on.  The CPCs (well those with disks) ran CP/M which was the predecessor to MS-DOS.  The later Amstrad PC clones ran MS-DOS, DR-DOS, GEM and so on.

As for my Spectrum antics - absolutely!  My sequence timetable runs on my DSi XL which is emulating a 128K Spectrum +!  And to prove it here is a picture of the main screen.

(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa370/PaddyColeman/MRT_zpsb2d20b58.jpg)

Many thanks

Paddy

Fascinating thread - good grief it takes you back!

My attic contains two ZX81s, one original and one where the 'motherboard' was removed and placed in a different keyboard and more memory and a graphics chip added. I also have a spectrum, an Amiga, an Atari and Sega Megadrive and loads of games for all of them. I used to run a computer club at work where we all tried to out-do each other with our programming prowess.

At work I started with a Commodore Pet before moving up to the dizzy heights of an IBM XP2 with twin 5 1/4" floppy drives and a colour monitor!

Geez, I've opened a Pandora's box here! All you closet computerheads!!  :wave: :beers:

Most impressed with your Hollerton Junction software, Paddy!

Love the Ohm's Law signature, Trev!

Here in Australia in the mid 80's, a kit computer called the Microbee came out, based on a Z80 processor. The company (based in Gosford, NSW if I recall) then began selling them made up. They were pretty crappy B & W machines but did accrue quite a large fanbase here in Oz. Anyway for some inexplicable reason the NSW Education Dept decided to adopt them for all the new-fangled computer labs they were initiating at that time. Being a teacher, I lived through this weird period and taught kids how to program random number games and so forth in BASIC.

Anyway, as you can probably imagine, the Dept realised the error of their ways and these machines were thrown out in a pretty short time. Naturally I acquired one (probably could have had most of 'em actually - but one was enough, thank you) and both it, a monitor and a cassette player are sitting under the Beal & Castle Eden as I write this.

The computer had a battery backup, so that when a program was loaded, it stayed in memory. Imagine my surprise when I turned it on recently, to find it running a program called 'Lemonade Stall' (a lame excuse for a supposedly 'educational' program), 25 years later!

So, one of these days, I'll brush up me BASIC skills and write some sort of  layout software for it - a sequencer like yours, perhaps, Paddy, or even just a simple scrolling layout saga. The point is, once loaded, it'll stay there and come up automatically when switched on.... no fancy flash memories or disks! Ah... the old technology....  :'( almost brings a tear to the eye! Errr.....

Bet you all thought this thread had gone away (last post 30/3/2013)..... well guess what.....

I'm ba-hack!!  :bump:

I am extremely tempted to get one of these:

https://www.smh.com.au/technology/video-games/full-size-commodore-64-remake-has-retro-fun-for-young-and-old-20200128-p53vf9.html (https://www.smh.com.au/technology/video-games/full-size-commodore-64-remake-has-retro-fun-for-young-and-old-20200128-p53vf9.html)

Hi @Bealman (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=255)

Seen a number of reviews of The C64 Maxi and all are positive.  The firmware seems to get regular updates (which is positive) and the new joystick is now micro-switched.  It would be great if they added support for other Commodore models as well e.g. C16, C+4, C128 and PET.

Who knows, maybe this will happen post CV19.

Personally, I rather fancy the ZX Spectrum Next when they open the second run for ordering.

Kind regards

Paddy

Looks interesting, but I will wait until someone does a 16 bit machine.

But wouldn't that mean it wasn't a C64 anymore?  :hmmm:

I was never a user in the old days. I went from a self built UK101 to a BBC model B then an Atari followed by an Amiga. The last 2 being 16 bit 68000 machines with disc drives.

Ah well, that explains it, Malc.:thumbsup:

I'e still got the issues of Practical Electronics mag with the UK101 in it!! That was based on an Ohio Scientific design, wasn't it?

Good to hear about the positive reviews, @Paddy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=356) .

I have no experience with the Sinclair Spectrum, except by reading magazines of the day, so cannot say anything except it's good it's being resurrected as well. Strangely, I did have a bit of a muck around with a ZX81 that someone brought in at work.

I notice the VIC-20 wasn't on your list - that was my first 'real' computer!  ;D

I await a version of JMRI for it with interest :D

Back in those days I was teaching electronics, inluding microprocessors, but the company used 4040 and 8080 processors so I settled on a colour Genie which had a Z80 processdor which used an enhanced version of the 8080 machine code; I used to do some programming in Basic but where I wanted something to run a bit fster I'd call a machine code sub routine; our boss wanted us to work in octal but we eventually convinced him that hexadecimal made more sense. My first PC  was an Amstrad 1512, with a single five and a  half inch floppy, later traded for a 1640 to which I added a 3.5" floppy and a 32Mb hard drive on an expansion card., the next two I "built" a 286 followed by a 386; todays machines make them seem prehistoric, I'm currently running 2 PCs with AMD 12 core processors (4CPU, 8 GPU) 16GB RAM, 256Gb SSDs and 2x2Gb hard drives and a DVD drive

Quote from: Bealman on May 20, 2020, 09:29:19 AM
Ah well, that explains it, Malc.:thumbsup:

I'e still got the issues of Practical Electronics mag with the UK101 in it!! That was based on an Ohio Scientific design, wasn't it.

Yes, the UK company ripped off the mother board but added a UK TV adaptor. It used 1k video ram which I doubled by piggybacking another RAM chip. It also only had 4K ram as standard but had slots for the 2114 chips to make it 8k. Each chip was £10 at the time.

Quote
10 PRINT "WH SMITHS IS RUBBISH!!";
20 GOTO 10

pah amateurs,

10 for n= 0 to  65536
20 poke n,255
30 next  n

I progressed onto deltree *.*/y  when pc's  got left unattended in comet or dixons

My first computer was a ZX81 - saved up for months and bought it in Currys for £50!

Best £50 I ever spent as it lead to a life long career in programming/IT.

Happy days.

Paddy

used to love the black screen with green lettering  ::)

In my school days, a supply teacher brought a ZX-80 in during some study periods. Soon after a friend's father managed to borrow a PET 2001 (which we soon got to grips with and had it calculating our physics homework on reflection and refraction for the next few weeks). Another friend got a ZX-81 and we messed about with that, writing a game that was used at a church open day to raise money for famine relief.

I was just about to buy a ZX-81 when the ZX Spectrum came out. I had years of fun with that - more programming than playing games, but some of both.

I sold the Spectrum (and my OO-gauge railway, with Zero-one controller and slave controllers) to buy a QL, which gave me word-processing and spreadsheet capabilities and a Super-Basic compiler for my programming.

I bought my first audio CD player and a couple of CDs with the money I got paid by QL World for one of my programs - which I'd actually written as my O-level computing project!

From then on it was PCs - the first with an NEC V20 processor (could work as an 8088 PC running DOS or as a Z80 PC running CPM) with the heady turbo speed of 8MHZ.

These days the house is full of PCs (4 desktops, a laptop and a server, plus a spare laptop, a work one and a couple of now unused PCs), but my home programming is back to basics with Arduino and PIC and my (N-gauge) layout is far larger. Work these days involves a lot of PLC/SCADA specification, some programming of it and lots of testing.

My father bought a ZX81 with the vague idea it might be useful (I think he had managing the household accounts or something in mind) and when it turned up all it did was sit there and display a mysterious "K" character in white on a black background. Literally all we could do with it was type in the examples in the manual, so I ended up learning the principles of programming from that and typing in games from listings in magazines ("Your Computer" anyone?).

Yours truly a couple of years later:

(https://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/static/misc/early-computing_small.jpg)

(Never intended to go into IT but was working as a translator in a startup back when people still used floppy disks regularly and we needed the clunky content management system to do something it couldn't, and the IT people (who were a caste of priests to whom the management was beholden) swore blind it was impossible, and me in my naivety thought "what a load of male dangly bits", bought a book on databases, wheedled my way into some systems and (to cut a long story short) a couple of years later ended up in charge of the whole kaboodle after some rounds of downsizing (found out a couple of weeks ago the software I wrote in 2001 was still running until very recently  :goggleeyes: )

I started out with a ZX80, moving on to a ZX81, then to the home grown Dragon 32 which was later replaced by a Dragon 64. My next machine was a Wyse PC 286-16 with both 3.5" and 5" floppies, 100mB HD ,1 meg memory,  tape streamer back up drive and a 16 colour graphics card, I also had a modem 1200baud.

Somewhere I still have my old ZX Spectrum - complete with microdrives & printer...might have to dig it out.

Good pic, there, squiddy!  :thumbsup:

I was going to quote it, but thought you may be embarrassed, so I thought I'd post this one instead:

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/78/255-220619071420-7873141.jpeg)

As can be seen, nothing much has changed, except he's got glasses and has taken up drinking  :beers:

I'm the good looking one, by the way.  :D

Actually it's great to hear the stories on this thread about people who played around with these 'toy' home computers back then went on to a lifetime career in the industry!  :thumbsup:

Apologies, @Paddy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=356) I've just been looking through the reviews (and you're right, they're mostly positive), and I see there is a VIC-20 mode included, which is pretty cool!

And yes, I do remember Your Computer magazine and a host of others that were around in those days. I too, spent hours typing programs in from listings contained therein!

I also loved the green text on the black screen. In fact the first thing I would do upon power-up of my VIC-20 then later the C64, would be to change the screen to green text on a black background, to make it look like a 'real' computer!

I wish I could get hold of an Amiga 600 with the 1Mb memory expansion port, just to play ATrain !

Both my sons were brought up on it, and now both are in IT.
Oh the joys of buying commodoe magazine, spending hours typing in the "free" game, and having it crash !

My first PC was a Compaq all in one !

Yeah, there was a very comprehensive space shuttle simulator for the Amiga. But I used to love my C64 flight simulator - flying around the chunky Statue of Liberty, and between the towers of the World Trade Centre, rather than into them!

Not sure if I have said this before, but I was fortunate to work for one of those independent computer stores that were around in the 1980/90s.  The pay was awful but it was one of my best jobs as I was like a kid (well I was 18 so still a kid!) in a toy shop.

I had access to almost everything - 8 bit computers from the usual players, Amiga, Atari ST and Amstrad PCs.  The best sellers during my time (I worked there for just over a year before getting a proper job as a mainframe programmer) were the Amstrad PCW (hard to keep up with demand and mostly I sold the 512K model which surprises me now as they seem rather rare secondhand) and Atari ST.

Many customers came in to look at the Amiga but left with the Atari.  This was before the Amiga 500 came out so the price difference was significant.  Also, the ST had a trick up it's sleeve - simply show it running in high-res mode on the monochrome monitor and compare it to the Apple Mac!  We had one ST modded with the Mac ROMs so could even boot it in to Mac OS. 😉

I left just as the Amstrad PC1512 came out.  My goodness that was a lot of computer for the price at the time.  It sold really well too but I was not a fan personally.  Now, the EGA based PC1640 was a really good machine,  I actually bought one with my own  money - I seem to recall it had a 20MB hard disk.

Spent about six months being trained as a professional programmer (Jackson structured programming, PL/I, JCL, VSAM etc.) before being let loose on the real systems.  My next move was to Intel as a programmer and this was "toy shop" number two.

I joined Intel around the time the 386 was released and then came Windows 3.0.  Whilst I started as a mainframe programmer (COBOL this time), I switched to their Application Development Centre that evaluated new PC development tools.  It was great fun as we were able to order PCs internally (Intel made its own motherboards etc. then) and I had a top spec 486 with 16MB RAM etc.

One fantastic event at Intel was when they decided everyone in the company needed to understand the PC.  This was before everyone had a personal Intel based PC at home.  Plus they were still very expensive.  Intel gave everyone a brand new free PC with top spec monitor, IBM Model M keyboard, DOS, Windows etc.  I remember how proud I was to collect mine from the warehouse in Swindon.

Ah happy days...

Kind regards

Paddy

Awesome!  :thumbsup:

I started with the Tandy TRS Model 80 ( 16k of throbbing RAM). And then  upgraded with the 32k add on box and a 48k floppy. The original 16k was nearly £600 ( with green screen) in 1980! It was replaced by a floppy tape drive ( as per Sinclair QL)

I then  migrated to Ataris, the BBC MIcro ( all night sessions playing E lite) an IBM PC Jr ( SWMBO got it cheap through the Company) and eventually  the first IBM AT in a GP practice ein W London ( 1985)

I've retired with my Big Mac, ( 40GB RAM, 4 TB SSD) and a PC.

I now restore old PCs/ laptops for charity/ good causes - its amazing what extra RAM, an SSD drive And Win10 can do for an old machine! ( alas not for its owner).

It's amazing how much demand there is for free PCs - people on benefits, kids doing GCSEs, older isolateD people.

If you have any old machines in the garage, consider refurbishing them and use Freecycle or Nextdoor to give them away.

NickR

https://trashnothing.com/beta/post/30231185/pc-monitors-for-good-cause-charity-ealing-w5

Hi @Railwaygun (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=941)

Totally agree about upgrades.  I purchased a new ThinkPad X121e laptop back in 2011 from Lenovo.  It was not amazing then i.e. Intel i3, 4GB RAM and a 120GB mechanical drive.  Over the years, I upgraded the RAM to 8GB (the max it can take), replaced the drive with a Samsung 850 PRO SSD and upgraded to Windows 10.

The machine still looked like new as it has mainly been used on a desk attached to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse.

Last year, I donated it to my brother and it is still doing good work for him - that is 11 years from one machine.  Not bad in my book.

What really annoys me is the current trend (thanks to Apple) for laptops not to be upgradeable.  Personally, I believe all machines should be able to have additional RAM and storage added.  Even the latest ThinkPads are now coming with soldered RAM and no slots.

In my book this is a retro-grade step and it is not good for the environment.  I understand why manufacturers do it - cheaper to make, more reliable, lighter, thinner etc. but it is a pain.

Kind regards

Paddy

Quote from: Paddy on May 21, 2020, 10:09:49 AM
Hi @Railwaygun (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=941)


What really annoys me is the current trend (thanks to Apple) for laptops not to be upgradeable. 
In my book this is a retro-grade step and it is not good for the environment.  I understand why manufacturers do it - cheaper to make, more reliable, lighter, thinner etc. but it is a pain.

Kind regards

Paddy

We've still got decades old Macs in use. By being reliable and fully usable with an optimised OS in the first place, you don't need to keep replacing or bolting bits on to keep them useable. Generally older Macs and iPhones get passed along to family and friend and stay in use. Also, by not using cheap, disposable components, Apple devices are all extremely recyclable when they do reach the end of their working life.

By their nature, Laptops aren't really machines that users consider upgrading internally, probably only 1% of their users would consider bolting in more RAM or a new drive. So it's kind of wasteful to build that feature into all of them. The serious pro users just get the top spec machine when they get a new one, knowing it'll be good for them for the next 3-5 years and can be sold off or passed down the friends and family chain when they need a new one.

Quote from: Paddy on May 21, 2020, 10:09:49 AM
Hi @Railwaygun (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=941)

Totally agree about upgrades.  I purchased a new ThinkPad X121e laptop back in 2011 from Lenovo.  It was not amazing then i.e. Intel i3, 4GB RAM and a 120GB mechanical drive.  Over the years, I upgraded the RAM to 8GB (the max it can take), replaced the drive with a Samsung 850 PRO SSD and upgraded to Windows 10.

The machine still looked like new as it has mainly been used on a desk attached to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse.

Last year, I donated it to my brother and it is still doing good work for him - that is 11 years from one machine.  Not bad in my book.

What really annoys me is the current trend (thanks to Apple) for laptops not to be upgradeable.  Personally, I believe all machines should be able to have additional RAM and storage added.  Even the latest ThinkPads are now coming with soldered RAM and no slots.

In my book this is a retro-grade step and it is not good for the environment.  I understand why manufacturers do it - cheaper to make, more reliable, lighter, thinner etc. but it is a pain.

Kind regards

Paddy

if you can get them open,( V difficult on modern laptops , and if you do, build quality is poor). the cases need a set of phone repair tools ( or a plectrum) to prise the shells apart.)  the HD is nearly always pluggable SATA and an SSD will drop in, 4GB runs Win10 well, and its my standard for refurbished machines.

2/3GB will work as well ( usually XP PCs) but most XPs get skipped ( and win10 is picky about older pentiums) ! getting runnable s/w is the problem - browsers, skype etc.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 10:40:40 AM
By their nature, Laptops aren't really machines that users consider upgrading internally, probably only 1% of their users would consider bolting in more RAM or a new drive. So it's kind of wasteful to build that feature into all of them. The serious pro users just get the top spec machine when they get a new one, knowing it'll be good for them for the next 3-5 years and can be sold off or passed down the friends and family chain when they need a new one.

Laptops used to have a couple of hatches on the bottom. Remove a single screw and open the hatch to reveal spare RAM sockets. The other hatch allowing access to the hard-disk. Simple, cheap upgrades that, many users could carry out for themselves, allowed older machines that struggled with newer operating systems, new application versions and larger file sizes to be massively speeded up by the addition of more RAM and replacing hard-disks with SSDs. Removal of these options condemns many laptops to being scrapped many years before they would otherwise need to be. That makes them more costly over their lifecycle and more wasteful of resources.

Quote from: stevewalker on May 21, 2020, 11:01:30 AM

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 10:40:40 AM
By their nature, Laptops aren't really machines that users consider upgrading internally, probably only 1% of their users would consider bolting in more RAM or a new drive. So it's kind of wasteful to build that feature into all of them. The serious pro users just get the top spec machine when they get a new one, knowing it'll be good for them for the next 3-5 years and can be sold off or passed down the friends and family chain when they need a new one.

Laptops used to have a couple of hatches on the bottom. Remove a single screw and open the hatch to reveal spare RAM sockets. The other hatch allowing access to the hard-disk. Simple, cheap upgrades that, many users could carry out for themselves, allowed older machines that struggled with newer operating systems, new application versions and larger file sizes to be massively speeded up by the addition of more RAM and replacing hard-disks with SSDs. Removal of these options condemns many laptops to being scrapped many years before they would otherwise need to be. That makes them more costly over their lifecycle and more wasteful of resources.

Except most of the cheap ones got thrown away before anyone ever considered using those hatches and *most* laptop users aren't technically minded enough to install even a simple RAM upgrade.

Like I said, most Apple laptops carry on in use for years and are typically extremely cost effective over their lifecycle as well as recyclable at the end. I still use my 2011 MacBook Air for game dev for instance. It's pretty much done a lap or two of the world by now and it's still got enough oomph for professional game dev (just). When I retire it, my Mum will probably end up using it for a few more years at least.

OS wise, it's only just hit the point where it's not supported by the absolute latest version of macOS, but the version it does run is still fully supported and optimised so it's not a slow device. The only area where it's right on the limit now is when I'm working on huge Unity projects, so it's relegated to only working on prototypes.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 10:40:40 AM

Quote from: Paddy on May 21, 2020, 10:09:49 AM
Hi @Railwaygun (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=941)


What really annoys me is the current trend (thanks to Apple) for laptops not to be upgradeable. 
In my book this is a retro-grade step and it is not good for the environment.  I understand why manufacturers do it - cheaper to make, more reliable, lighter, thinner etc. but it is a pain.

Kind regards

Paddy

We've still got decades old Macs in use. By being reliable and fully usable with an optimised OS in the first place, you don't need to keep replacing or bolting bits on to keep them useable. Generally older Macs and iPhones get passed along to family and friend and stay in use. Also, by not using cheap, disposable components, Apple devices are all extremely recyclable when they do reach the end of their working life.

By their nature, Laptops aren't really machines that users consider upgrading internally, probably only 1% of their users would consider bolting in more RAM or a new drive. So it's kind of wasteful to build that feature into all of them. The serious pro users just get the top spec machine when they get a new one, knowing it'll be good for them for the next 3-5 years and can be sold off or passed down the friends and family chain when they need a new one.

Oh God no, not the Apple vs. PC debate.  ::)

If you buy decent quality PCs then they are just as good as Apple - personally I have always purchased ThinkPads.  Like Mac's these go on for ever and use high quality components - actually the same components as Apple is most cases.  Apple also benefits because there is no low cost version of the Mac - Intel, Microsoft etc. have to contend with the budget manufacturers.

It is true that Apple benefit from having a closed, proprietary environment which allows them to tightly integrate hardware/software.  I have no problem with Apple kit - it is beautifully made in the main although a wee bit of style over substance on occasion for me.

The closed ecosystem was a debate that went on between Jobs and Woz from almost day one at Apple.  Obviously Jobs won and one can see the benefit in the iPhone which is a wonderful piece of kit.

Kind regards

Paddy

Quote from: Railwaygun on May 21, 2020, 10:45:16 AM

if you can get them open,( V difficult on modern laptops , and if you do, build quality is poor). the cases need a set of phone repair tools ( or a plectrum) to prise the shells apart.)  the HD is nearly always pluggable SATA and an SSD will drop in, 4GB runs Win10 well, and its my standard for refurbished machines.

2/3GB will work as well ( usually XP PCs) but most XPs get skipped ( and win10 is picky about older pentiums) ! getting runnable s/w is the problem - browsers, skype etc.

Very true on low-cost, budget kit.  Fortunately, I have always had/bought quality kit such as the ThinkPad which have always been easy to work on.  HP corporate laptops are similar.  You just need to avoid the budget end of the PC market (if you can afford to do so).

Kind regards

Paddy

Quoteand win10 is picky about older pentiums)

Conversely I bought a new machine about 18 months ago which would not run anything earlier than Win 8 so I had to swop it for an "end of line" which happily runs Win 7 pro 64 bit, even so I have to run an XP emulator for some older software.

My laptop is a Panasonic toughbook, with extra ram and an SSD large enough to hold the software and a bit spare,  all data (images, text, music & videos) being on external hard disc or CD/DVD.

One thing I recall from the '80s we had some Texas teleprinters which used twin cassettes instead of punched tape for data storage and transmission which meant we could type our basic or machine code save it on cassette and then play back on to our home machines

QuoteYou just need to avoid the budget end of the PC market

Don't know if Zoostorm with AMD processors count as budget machines, but I've had my two  for some years, yet to spend more than £350 - £400 on one; the Panasonic laptop (also AMD processor) is a refurb.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:14:48 AM
Except most of the cheap ones got thrown away before anyone ever considered using those hatches and *most* laptop users aren't technically minded enough to install even a simple RAM upgrade.

Not sure if you actually mean this statement @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8) or are just trying to provoke.  I will assume the latter and ignore what is obviously a ridiculous statement.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:14:48 AM
Like I said, most Apple laptops carry on in use for years and are typically extremely cost effective over their lifecycle as well as recyclable at the end. I still use my 2011 MacBook Air for game dev for instance. It's pretty much done a lap or two of the world by now and it's still got enough oomph for professional game dev (just). When I retire it, my Mum will probably end up using it for a few more years at least.

As I said above, the true is the same for good quality PCs - at the end of the day they are basically the same machine since Apple switched to the Intel platform.  Now, I accept that if/when Apple move from Intel to their in-house ARM based architecture for the Macs that this could change radically.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:14:48 AM
OS wise, it's only just hit the point where it's not supported by the absolute latest version of macOS, but the version it does run is still fully supported and optimised so it's not a slow device. The only area where it's right on the limit now is when I'm working on huge Unity projects, so it's relegated to only working on prototypes.

I have to admit that Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with the release of Windows 8.  Like Apple, various releases of Windows prior to this worked better than others.  Windows 7 was a very stable and usable OS.  Windows 8 was a disaster from the user community perspective and Windows 10 is an improvement but still has a long way to go.  My understanding is that Microsoft merged a number of the OS related teams and sadly let go many of the experienced developers/testers.  There is no doubt that they have paid for this in terms of stability e.g. the quality of updates to Windows 10.

Kind regards

Paddy

Hi @Dorsetmike (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2855)

No problem at all with AMD, especially these days as they are seriously targeting the low, mid and top tier of the PC market.  Would I personally buy an AMD based machine?  No, I would not and that is purely down to being a biased, ex-Intel employee.  ;)

Sadly, for AMD they do tend to be seen as the "budget" end of the market.  This is a shame as the new Ryzen processors are very capable and in a lot of real-world cases will outperform Intel at a lower cost.  It is interesting to note that to date, Apple have not released AMD based Macs.  I am sure the Sales folks at AMD have been banging on Apple's door.

You can get some fantastic deals on refurbished kit - Apple included.  We have in the past purchased two "refurbed" ThinkPads and in both cases they arrived as brand new, sealed units.  They were the previous generation models but were 40% cheaper.

To give you some idea, a new, good spec ThinkPad will cost you around £850+ so not a budget device.  Decent PC kit will end up costing not much less than an Apple Mac which is not surprising given they are basically the same.

I have to take my hat off to Apple with their screen technology though - simply gorgeous.

P.S. Sorry Mike, should have said that if you want to run older (or other) OSs on a new PC then my advice would be to go down the virtualisation route.  The base machine will run Windows 10 and you can then have any number of virtual Windows 7, Linux etc. machines running on top (hardware permitting).

Kind regards

Paddy

Quote from: Paddy on May 21, 2020, 11:33:58 AM

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:14:48 AM
Except most of the cheap ones got thrown away before anyone ever considered using those hatches and *most* laptop users aren't technically minded enough to install even a simple RAM upgrade.

Not sure if you actually mean this statement @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8) or are just trying to provoke.  I will assume the latter and ignore what is obviously a ridiculous statement.

Paddy

Not being provocative. Now there's more and more people using laptops and only a small percentage of them would ever consider themselves brave enough to open them up and install RAM upgrades, most of them never get upgraded. Likewise as the majority of laptops sold are underpowered, cheap devices, they tend to just end up being scrapped within a relatively short lifetime and due to being mostly plastic, not particularly recyclable.

There *are* high end users who'll max out the lifetime and upgrades of their Windows laptops, but they're nowhere near being the majority and while the general concept of Macs is similar to an Intel Windows laptop, the component requirements are a lot higher than the baseline and the OS is designed to them, not to a wide generic spec.

Likewise if/when Apple switches to their own chips, users won't notice the difference in the OS (other than new features,speed, battery life etc.) and it'll be the same OS the Intel based Mac users will be using for a few years at least.

On the Apple/AMD front. That would require Apple to switch all their Macs to AMD as there'd be no point in doing different Intel and AMD Macs. There's some screamingly fast AMD chips out there, but they were late to the game when Apple and Intel were doing their plans. If/when Apple switches to their own chips it would become academic.

One other point with the soldered in RAM/SSD btw. On MacBooks this means the whole memory system is protected by the T2 security chip, making it much harder for nefarious types to gain access to your data.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:54:23 AM
Not being provocative. Now there's more and more people using laptops and only a small percentage of them would ever consider themselves brave enough to open them up and install RAM upgrades, most of them never get upgraded. Likewise as the majority of laptops sold are underpowered, cheap devices, they tend to just end up being scrapped within a relatively short lifetime and due to being mostly plastic, not particularly recyclable.

Hi @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8)

Good chat.  ;)

The trouble with making a statement like this is that you are treating the WinTel laptop market as one big lump.  Now, if you said the low to mid-market PC laptop market then I would probably agree with you.  Most of these machines are complete junk and do sell in their millions.  However, this completely ignores the huge corporate market where even more millions of high end laptops reside.

Most of the corporate laptops are on a fixed replacement cycle of typically 3-5 years these days.  However, being able to expand them is still seen as very important i.e. RAM and internal storage.  High end PC kit is relatively easy to work on which is no surprise given many of the machines are covered by 3rd party maintenance contracts.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:54:23 AM
There *are* high end users who'll max out the lifetime and upgrades of their Windows laptops, but they're nowhere near being the majority and while the general concept of Macs is similar to an Intel Windows laptop, the component requirements are a lot higher than the baseline and the OS is designed to them, not to a wide generic spec.

Again, what does "high end user" mean?  If you are talking about some techie at home then may be but this is not what the PC world is about.  Those types of Home users are dwarfed by the corporate market where component quality is just as high as Apple.  That is why a corporate PC is so much more expensive than Currys!  Of course Apple define the spec of the components they use but so will Lenovo, Dell, HP at the high end.  There will always be OEMs/ISVs who go for the lowest cost but that is only part of the market.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:54:23 AM
Likewise if/when Apple switches to their own chips, users won't notice the difference in the OS (other than new features,speed, battery life etc.) and it'll be the same OS the Intel based Mac users will be using for a few years at least.

Er, too early to tell on that one.  Anyway, it won't be the OS where the issues arise if/when Apple switches the Mac line to ARM.  As Microsoft has found with its ARM based versions of Windows, the real challenge is emulating X64 environment that is acceptable to high-end users (sorry could not resist!).

Personally, I think it is a great idea for Apple to move to ARM if they can pull it off.  The good news is that they have the resources to invest and do this properly.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:54:23 AM
On the Apple/AMD front. That would require Apple to switch all their Macs to AMD as there'd be no point in doing different Intel and AMD Macs. There's some screamingly fast AMD chips out there, but they were late to the game when Apple and Intel were doing their plans. If/when Apple switches to their own chips it would become academic.

This may shock you... I agree.  ;)

The most obvious reason for Apple to release AMD based Macs would be to put one over Intel in some way.  However, I am sure Apple already has sufficient leverage with Intel to get what they need in terms of pricing/spec.  Also, Apple simply do not ship enough Macs to make it worth the effort in tooling up a whole new line.

Quote from: zwilnik on May 21, 2020, 11:54:23 AMOne other point with the soldered in RAM/SSD btw. On MacBooks this means the whole memory system is protected by the T2 security chip, making it much harder for nefarious types to gain access to your data.

The T2 chip is a clever idea but I would rather have the ability to upgrade RAM/Storage.  The idea of all my internal storage being tied to a key linked to that T2 chip is not something I would feel comfortable with.  You definitely want to have a regular and comprehensive backup strategy in place.

Kind regards

Paddy

What did people use these 1st generation home computers for, apart from playing games ?

Quote from: Paddy on May 21, 2020, 12:17:15 PM

Good chat.  ;)


The T2 chip is a clever idea but I would rather have the ability to upgrade RAM/Storage.  The idea of all my internal storage being tied to a key linked to that T2 chip is not something I would feel comfortable with.  You definitely want to have a regular and comprehensive backup strategy in place.

Kind regards

Paddy

(trimmed the quoted stuff back a bit to avoid it being overlong ;) )

Very good chat :) I agree with you about the whole lump thing, although that also tends to be applied to Apple users too. There are distinct differences between Apple's market for its general users with the MacBook, MacBook Air and lower end MacBook Pros and their pro users with the high end MacBook Pros. Desktop-wise, they're all upgradable other than the latest Mac Mini and all Macs are designed to last.

While the big corporate PC manufacturers define the spec of their components, they don't write the OS. So they're still limited by an OS that has to cover all the bases. Other than Dell cooling fans (they used to just ship us boxes of them for when they failed at one old job :) ) I wouldn't be surprised if component issues are dwarfed by OS problems for their IT departments.

On the T2 chip point, part of the Apple ecosystem is that normally you'd also have your iCloud account and be running TimeMachine at least, so you're doing secure backups and a lot of your data is actually in the cloud. (thus allowing for practical use of smaller SSDs on your actual laptop). I think with any computer you'd want a regular and comprehensive backup strategy. We all seem to learn that after our first big data loss ;)

Quote from: joe cassidy on May 21, 2020, 12:22:17 PM
What did people use these 1st generation home computers for, apart from playing games ?

Learning how to write games ;)

Quote from: joe cassidy on May 21, 2020, 12:22:17 PM
What did people use these 1st generation home computers for, apart from playing games ?

Hi @joe cassidy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1484)

Depends on what you mean by "1st generation of home computers".  ;)

The ZX80, ZX81, MK14 etc. of this world no doubt sold to mainly hobbyists who were interested in soldering irons etc.

However, I suspect what you are really talking about are the ZX Spectrum, Commodore VIC-20, Commodore 64 etc.  What I can say based on my experience from selling these machines back then is very little.  Parents tended to come in to the shop and spout all manner of nonsense about home finance, education, word processing etc. whilst little Jimmy/Jane stood looking at Jet Set Willy.  :D

So you had to be a wee bit clever and show the parents something like Mini Office even though you knew it would only partially do what they wanted.  Jimmy/Jane were happy because Dad had bought the "ZX VIC-20 64" and it came with a games pack!  A few Jimmy/Janes progressed beyond playing games and became coders which later on gave the UK its world-renowned software development expertise.

The first notable change I saw was when the Amstrad PCW came out.  Although this machine was an 8 bit computer and was definitely not a games machine it could do serious work.  You had CP/M+ which gave you access to professional business applications such as Sage Accounts, dBASE IV, VisiCalc and of course you had the Locoscript word-processor which was very good.  The machine also came with proper disk storage (ignoring the debate about the 3" drives) which made loading programs/storing data fast and reliable.  You also got a good quality "screen", keyboard and printer.  The PCWs sold in their thousands to SMEs across the UK.

Personally, I can put my hand up and say that I have never been in to playing computer games.  For me, from my first ZX81 it was always about the coding.  I have never owned a PlayStation, XBOX or any other console (this does not include my daughters BTW).  ;)

I have nothing against video games and I certainly marvel at the rich worlds that can now be created but each to their own.  Certainly graphics have come along way since 3D Monster Maze on the ZX81!

Kind regards

Paddy

It also varied country to country. In the US where the Apple ][ was the first computer being sold en-mass as a home computer, games were still a big deal but there was a lot more in the way of office software for SME and home use as well as a lot of industry specific applications as custom expansion boards and interfaces were relatively easy to make and install on them.

They were pricier than the ones that spawned the UK boom, but that also spawned cheaper clones (and those knock-off cloners went on to drive the PC clone business well before Dell did it ''legitimately" ).

Hi @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8)

I think we are actually in broad agreement which can be summarised as "you get what you pay for".  You simply prefer Macs and I, WinTel.

As I said in one of my previous posts, I think Windows has become an issue for companies as it is such an open system by default.  Obviously, you can implement Active Directory and lock almost everything down via profiles.  Fortunately for me, I have always worked in places where the machines were left open for technical folks.  :)

Having spent 20+ years in technical support, my advice to any user is:

1. Buy the best kit you can afford from established manufacturers - this tends to provide much better driver updates etc.

2. Do NOT install loads of 3rd party utilities that reconfigure the base OS too much.  Years in software development have taught me that the primary code path is the one that gets the most testing - you deviate from this at your peril.

3. Don't be overly clever - KISS rules.

It has been a while since I looked at the MacBook line-up so I thought in the interests of transparency I would publish the spec/prices of Apple's base units in each category.  I have added the Mac mini as you mentioned it above.

MacBook Air
   1.1GHz Dual-Core i3 10th Generation
   Integrated Graphics
   256GB SSD
   8GB RAM
   £999

MacBook Pro 13"
   1.4GHz Quad-Core i5 8th Generation
   Integrated Graphics
   256GB SSD
   8GB RAM
   £1,299

MacBook Pro 16"
   2.6GHz Six-Core i7 9th Generation
   AMD Radeon Graphics
   512GB SSD
   16GB RAM
   £2,399

Max mini
   3.6GHz Quad-Core i3 8th Generation
   Integrated Graphics
   256GB SSD
   8GB RAM
   £799

As you can see, these prices are very much in the high-end Win-Tel laptop/PC territory.  If you spent this on PC hardware you would have extremely high quality components as well.  Sadly, for the WinTel world, many "customers" think £500 is an expensive laptop (which it may be depending on one's personal circumstances).

EDIT: Should have added that I am typing this on my good old ThinkPad E460 which has a spec of:

ThinkPad E460
   2.5GHz Dual-Core i7 6th Generation
   AMD Radeon Graphics (2GB)
   512GB SSD
   16GB RAM

And this cost me just over £800 new a couple of years ago.

Kind regards

Paddy

Yup, Apple simply don't bother with the low end market. (and there are, as with some PC manufacturers, discounts for education and refurb options).

There's a lot of subtle differences in the 'cost' of the Apple platform vs WinTel. For instance, I didn't realise until this year that when you buy a Windows machine or a copy of Windows to install, it's locked to a single language by default and you have to pay for more (Not sure if the much more expensive Windows Pro pack includes them all?)

On MacOs (and iOS), all languages are included by default and the OS is included as part of the price of the machine and free to upgrade (even if you bought a second hand one).

Like I think we've both been saying. Whatever platform you use, you get what you pay for.

Hi @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8)

Yeah you need Windows Pro or above for that - extra £100ish.   For most non-corporate users, Windows Home is OK.  You also get less of the annoying adware/telemetry in Pro and above although you can turn most of this off now in Windows Home too.

Certainly, if you were spending the Mac prices on WinTel then specifying Windows Pro would not be a problem.

It is all about compromise and where one wants to sit.  The reality is that for the price of a Mac you could get a better specified WinTel machine.  However, this statement does not take in to account build quality.  The gap narrows much more if you want to match the Mac's quality.  I did not put reliability as all manufacturers have their issues even Apple.

There was rumours that Microsoft wanted to limit the supported hardware for Windows 10 at one point.  I have not heard anything further on this for a while so don't know if this has been quietly dropped?  Dropping support for Win32 is also mentioned until some corporate has a hissy fit about an internally developed application that dates back to the year dot.

I am sure that if Microsoft could drop a lot of the historic baggage they could make Windows leaner.  Alternatively, switch to Linux and add a WINE type layer...

Bet you never thought I would say that.  :no:

EDIT: should have added that I am now writing this on my iPad.  ;)

Kind regards

Paddy

Quote from: Paddy on May 21, 2020, 01:32:36 PM
Hi @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8)

Yeah you need Windows Pro or above for that - extra £100ish.   For most non-corporate users, Windows Home is OK.  You also get less of the annoying adware/telemetry in Pro and above although you can turn most of this off now in Windows Home too.

Certainly, if you were spending the Mac prices on WinTel then specifying Windows Pro would not be a problem.

It is all about compromise and where one wants to sit.  The reality is that for the price of a Mac you could get a better specified WinTel machine.  However, this statement does not take in to account build quality.  The gap narrows much more if you want to match the Mac's quality.  I did not put reliability as all manufacturers have their issues even Apple.

There was rumours that Microsoft wanted to limit the supported hardware for Windows 10 at one point.  I have not heard anything further on this for a while so don't know if this has been quietly dropped?  Dropping support for Win32 is also mentioned until some corporate has a hissy fit about an internally developed application that dates back to the year dot.

I am sure that if Microsoft could drop a lot of the historic baggage they could make Windows leaner.  Alternatively, switch to Linux and add a WINE type layer...

Bet you never thought I would say that.  :no:

Kind regards

Paddy

At one point Microsoft were trying to push the idea of a specific Microsoft Windows PC, but other than the logo being on a few generic MacBook looking ones for product placement on NCIS etc. nothing really came of it.

There's a bit of a cultural difference you get when you're buying a Mac. For instance the idea of telemetry not being an absolutely opt-in feature with completely de-personalised data or adware being included at all, is completely alien to Apple.

Hi @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8)

Telemetry and adware were totally alien to me when they introduced it.  Totally daft idea in my book and one which caused a lot of damage/trust issues for Microsoft.

You can imagine the discussion at Microsoft HQ though... "if we could monetize (sic) the Windows 10 user base we could generate another 0.5 to 1 billion USD in incremental, recurring revenue!  Can we do this?  Yes, go for it."

They only asked "can we" rather than "should we".  :'(

Microsoft should be above the Google/Facebook business model and act as a responsible citizen as Apple does.  Blimey, how much money does one company need?

Kind regards

Paddy

Any comments on the AMD processors built in 8 core Graphics processor against separate video cards? My main graphics use is photo and video editing/processing, also software for the plotter cutter; never been into games, apart from playing bridge or cribbage on line

My second PC is mainly dedicated to music, including a virtual pipe organ and music notation software and also spends a lot of time just playing music through a Technics hifi set up. It also stores most of my ripped vinyl, cassette and CD content.

I think Microsoft struggle with not really owning the Windows platform totally. So they're pushed to do things they don't like so the box shifter manufactures can have all their pre-installed junk (looking at you Lenovo) on the budget machines.

It stems back to Microsoft's original decision to back PC clones by allowing dodgy copies of Windows to swamp the market to get market share. It worked for them then, but they lost control over what specification Windows would need to run on as bigger and bigger PC clone makers dominated the hardware sales. They dragged it back over the last couple of decades, but still beholden to the hardware manufacturers.

With more and more of the software becoming a subscription model and more people switching to tablets rather than budget PCs, Microsoft might be able to get it a bit more under control in future.

Hi @Dorsetmike (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2855)

One of the current battlegrounds between Intel and AMD is integrated graphics.  Both companies see this as a good way to differentiate their processors.  The latest processors have certainly come a long way in this regard and integrated graphics are suitable for many users including those who game occasionally.

However, the integrated graphics still cannot match the performance of a separate graphics card with its own video memory.  You certainly need this for high end gaming and heavy duty graphics/video work.

I cannot really say if the integrated graphics would suit you as I do not know your workload in this area.  If you are planning on editing 4K video regularly then I would say a discreet graphics card is still a must.

EDIT: Of course, you then get in to the AMD vs. Nvidia debate!  ;)

Kind regards

Paddy

Maybe I'm a bit of a luddite sticking with Win 7 Pro 64 bit, with updates turned OFF for the last couple of years. It does all I need, "'tain't broke so why fix it?"  From the moans I see re Win 10 updates I often feel justified by that alone. I don't use farcebook nor any other "soshul meeja" I use Firefox and Thunderbird for internet and Email.

I did look at Linux  - once - when I found no drivers for my OKI colour laser, just a comment that it was only of use as a paper weight!

Hi @Dorsetmike (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2855)

A lot to be said for "if it ain't broke...".

Windows 7 is/was a very good OS.  All I would suggest is install a decent anti virus toolkit to protect yourself.

Drivers are a perennial problem and is one of the good (and destabilising) features of Windows having been around for so long.

Windows 10 updates have become a bad joke in recent years.  Apparently very much related to losing of experienced testers at Microsoft, removal of testing farms and a switch to much more AI testing.

Personally, I have not had any issues with Windows 10 but even I wait a month now before installing the latest update.

Kind regards

Paddy

QuoteI did look at Linux  - once - when I found no drivers for my OKI colour laser

I could have said the same about windoze when 98  dropped support for an old  star dot matrix printer.
whats the model number,driver issues aint the fault of linux its down to lazy/paranoid manufacturers,luckily we've just about moved on from the days were  peripherals were made from a defined chipset that made thingst wintel compatible only.

QuoteAll I would suggest is install a decent anti virus toolkit to protect yourself.

I've been using AVG for about 15 years, nothing drastic so far, but it does balk at a weekly jigsaw puzzle that I download as a .exe file, recently it's gone over to a preliminary15 second scan after which I can choose to ignore it.

My first experience with a desktop computer was with the Commodore as a chemistry student in 1980.

I used it for number-crunching.

The output was printed out on a tiny printer.

I then had to plot graphs by hand using Letraset - remember that ?

Best regards,


Joe

[mod]As the originator of this thread, I'm now also going to put on my moderator's hat.... can we stick to the subject, please? Commodore 64, if anyone's forgotten. :beers:[/mod]

And yes, Joe, I do remember letraset!  :thumbsup:

Oddly, the C64 was one I got fairly minimal time on when I was first learning to program, although did quite a bit on the Vic 20, Pet, Dragon 32, ZX81 and even an Oric before I got my own Banana ][+ (Apple ][+ clone).
Got some friends who wrote various C64 games amongst others, will be interesting to see if the games on this one have been 'ethically sourced' ie if they bothered to actually license them from the original authors or rights holders :)

I assume it's all above board, as the newspaper article says that the big titles aren't there because of such issues.

I'm amazed that people are still producing new software for it!

I had quite a good handle on commodore BASIC, could even work with sprites and PEEK and POKE!

(Cue for appearance from @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) )

Yes, there's a surprising lot of stuff out there! Like many retro things these days, there is a very active cyber-community rocking along!  :thumbsup:

I started on a VIC-20 too, probably one of the first in Australia - I recall pestering the one and only computer shop in Wollongong as to when it was coming in. It had been released almost 12 months in the USA and Europe before it reached these shores.

Quote from: Bealman on March 29, 2013, 11:12:52 PM
Any other ex 8-bitters on the forum?

I loved our C64. My older brother taught me programming on it too which was cool. I remember that in most games you could press control+run-stop (IIRC) and it would take you into the programming code. I had a couple of football games and I'd change the names to mine and my school friends. Great memories.

"World Games" and "Summer Games" stands out as games the whole family would play together... Thank you for this post just for bringing the memory back  :beers:

Summer Games is apparently included with the new model.  :thumbsup:

Los Angeles Olympics, 1984!!

Why not build your own

Although im more tempted to give this earlier model a go

Quote from: Bealman on May 22, 2020, 02:39:00 PM
Summer Games is apparently included with the new model.  :thumbsup:

Los Angeles Olympics, 1984!!

Well it sure ain't going to be the 2020 Summer Olympics ;)

What a bunch of late adopters! I was window shopping the Tandy TRS-80 in 1977. By the time I could afford one in 1978, Dick Smith started importing the Exidy Sorcerer into Australia - much more sophisticated, but is cost me $1,200! I sold the Sorcerer in 1982 and bought my first "proper" computer - an Osbourne One, the first ever portable business computer. It weighed in at more than 10kg, and was the shape and size of a portable sewing machine. 64k RAM, running CP/M on a Zilog Z80. Two floppy disks, one for the program and one for the data. Those were the days.... ;)

Yeah, I remember both those machines. The keyboard of the Osborne was in the lid, if I recall, with a tiny CRT in the box.

Dick Smith also imported a TRS-80 clone with a built-in cassette recorder.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/6278-230520031739.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=93985)

Osborne 1 - 5" screen!

Yep, that's the one!

@themadhippy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4863) Great videos, thanks for posting. Takes me right back to the 6502 machine I had all those years ago. I still remembered some of the op codes.