The appeal of N Gauge to me is its potential for building a minimum space layout, rather than running long trains in spacious countryside. Such a layout would use tank locos on short trains rather than larger tender locos. However, there are very few tank locos available in N Gauge compared to what is available in the larger scales. Why is that? It can't just be a problem with squeezing a good motor into a tiny body as Farish's Class 03, 04 and 08 diesels have good reputations and are a similar size to many tank locos.
I've racked my brains (and Hattons lists) to see what pre-nationalization tank locos are or were recently available or are planned. This is all I came up with:
Ex-GWR
14xx (Dapol)
57xx (Dapol)
57xx (Farish)
87xx (Farish)
Prairie (Farish)
Ex-SR
Terrier (Dapol)
M7 (Dapol)
Ex-LMS
3F (Farish)
Ex-LNER
Absolutely nothing, except Farish's 40-year old J69
Have I missed anything from the above list? As someone who'd like to build an ex-GER branch terminus, there is nothing available that I can run as my kit-building skills are almost non-existent. Are we ever likely to see such locos as an F5 or N7 produced in ready-to-run form by an N Gauge manufacturer? (I'd even settle for a small tender loco such as an E4 or J15, but I doubt they will ever see the light of day either).
Alan
Hi Alan,
I'm no expert on British steam but I have 2 Grafar 0-6-0 GP Tank engines in LNER Apple Green. It also came in other liveries as well. Or is this the J69 you are on about?
Alex :wave:
Why does it have to be tank kettles? If it's a matter of building a minimum space layout and wanting small locos and short trains then why not consider others.
There are plenty of small 0-6-0 tender locos (such as the Dapol Q1, Farish 4F and soon to be available J39, and from UM) plus a massive number of small diesels like the shunters 03, 04 and 08 and relatively short ones like the class 14 and bo-bos such as the 20, 25, 26, 27, 33, 35 Hymek, 42, 73, etc.
H.
Quote from: nf3996 on August 25, 2012, 10:30:38 AM
Are we ever likely to see such locos as an F5 or N7 produced in ready-to-run form by an N Gauge manufacturer? (I’d even settle for a small tender loco such as an E4 or J15, but I doubt they will ever see the light of day either).
Alan
Sadly, Alan, I very much doubt you will see these available in RTR form, although I think the N7 would be popular. :(
[quote author=H link=topic=7369.msg83414#msg83414
There are plenty of small 0-6-0 tender locos (such as the Dapol Q1, Farish 4F and soon to be available J39, and from UM) plus a massive number of small diesels like the shunters 03, 04 and 08 and relatively short ones like the class 14 and bo-bos such as the 20, 25, 26, 27, 33, 35 Hymek, 42, 73, etc.
H.
[/quote]
I agree to a certain extent, H, but Alan did say pre-nationalisation which rules out many of the diesels suggested
I must admit I wouldn't mind a tank loco.
Preferably a 2MT Tank as they ran on the Guildford to Horsham line many years ago.
I believe Farish made some a few years back, but if they did they are like rocking horse poo.
Quote from: newportnobby on August 25, 2012, 01:18:23 PM
Alan did say pre-nationalisation which rules out many of the diesels suggested
Pre-nationalisation was only mentioned in relation to tank locos - I'm suggesting he consider other types which meet his main criteria of being small locomotives for a minimum space layout.
Once you start getting picky and adding in more restrictive requirements (like era, region, livery, size, type, maker, etc) you start to reduce the options available. Inevitable really. Eventually you are bound to get to a situation where very few, or even nothing, will match all your narrow criteria. I'm still having trouble finding a RTR N gauge gas powered freight loco in the special celebration pink livery that was used just for a month and that ran on the short tourist line on that very remote off-shore island in the summer of 1971. :D
H.
Quote from: Joe 90 on August 25, 2012, 02:00:08 PM
I must admit I wouldn't mind a tank loco.
Preferably a 2MT Tank as they ran on the Guildford to Horsham line many years ago.
I believe Farish made some a few years back, but if they did they are like rocking horse poo.
They do a 3MT tank; http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/516_1_2658340.html (http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/516_1_2658340.html)
And will shortly bringing out a 4MT Tank.
The 2MT, also due out soon, is a tender loco.
H.
It does seem strange that tanks are very under-represented, particularly for the LNER. The nearest they have got was the Farish GP Tank - a sort of generic stretched Jinty. A J50 or J72 would probably go down very well in these quarters.
The GWR has done quite well, with good models of various Panniers and Pariries, LMS has the Jinty and Ivatt 2MT and Southern the M7 and Terrier.
We need
more UK outline tank engines. After all, they were
the unsung workhorses of the railways!
I've no doubt we will get more eventually once the main bigger engines have all been done. (Those that will sell lots of that is! :D)
Until then we'll either have to wait or hope/badger the manufacturers to make the chassis available
separately for kit makers to cater for!
Quote from: Alex on August 25, 2012, 11:09:28 AM
Hi Alan,
I'm no expert on British steam but I have 2 Grafar 0-6-0 GP Tank engines in LNER Apple Green. It also came in other liveries as well. Or is this the J69 you are on about?
Alex :wave:
The J69 and GP tank are two very different beasties. The former fell apart when you removed the body for a start!
The J69 is often referred to as a Holden Tank, big motor, not very good for shunting or end to end layouts but great for roundy roundy types!
People often sell them on (or even give them away) once they lose the coupling rods but you can buy replacement ones. I think its BH Enterprises who do them.
The body is quite a good casting for its age and I've heard of people shoehorning Dapol Terrier chassis into them.
Quote from: H on August 25, 2012, 02:00:16 PM
I'm still having trouble finding a RTR N gauge gas powered freight loco in the special celebration pink livery that was used just for a month and that ran on the short tourist line on that very remote off-shore island in the summer of 1971. :D
H.
Which loco was that? Offshore? D'ya mean the I.O.W?
Sounds interesting whatever it is. I'm sure a kit maker could do a body for you, perhaps some vinyl overlays... ;)
There don't seem to be that many tank locos in larger scales either, I think that the manufacturers have the idea, possibly backed up by research that bigger goods and express locos are better sellers.
I have a black Farish LNER J94, is that a proper LNER loco? I'm not sure if the livery is authentic? I also have a blue NCB one. I have it on good authority that Farish even did a Dutch version as they were used in the Netherlands.
I would love more tank engines.
:ngauge:
Why bother with all these silly little things when you could go for a proper tank engine...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB%26SCR_L_class (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB%26SCR_L_class)
These Billington Baltic tanks make tender engines look little! :D
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on August 25, 2012, 03:39:56 PM
Why bother with all these silly little things when you could go for a proper tank engine...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB%26SCR_L_class (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB%26SCR_L_class)
These Billington Baltic tanks make tender engines look little! :D
Thats not big. This is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_60_class_locomotive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_60_class_locomotive) and its classed according to Wikipedia as a tank engine! :D :smiley-laughing:
According to the main manufacturers
- they cost as much to design as the big mainline locos
- they don't sell as well
There are however a lot of kits for tank locos of varying quality many of which can make nice locos. The old ABS ones are getting harder to find but are some nice kits to build, and there are a fair number of other sources.
Alan
Quote from: nf3996 on August 25, 2012, 10:30:38 AM
Have I missed anything from the above list?
A few to add to the original list:
GWR:
94xx Pannier (Farish)
45xx Prairie (Dapol)
4575 Prairie (Dapol)
8750 Pannier (Dapol - they are doing oth versions)
LMS:
Ivatt 2MT Tank (Dapol)
I agree it'd be nice to see some more tanks, i'd certainley get an N2!
Ollie
Langley do a quite easy to build N2 kit, although you do have to redo the real axle to get the best view as in here:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/31648-langley-n2-non-condensing/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/31648-langley-n2-non-condensing/)
About 3 years ago I started to scratchbuild a Barclays 0-6-0T engine as used by the Wemyss Private Railway. On version 7 at the moment, still about 80% complete. Not as easy as it looks.
Alex :wave:
You could add the Minitrix Dock Tank (Ex-LMS) to the list, although like the Farish J69 is only available secondhand.
Quote from: Joe 90 on August 25, 2012, 02:00:08 PM
I must admit I wouldn't mind a tank loco.
Preferably a 2MT Tank as they ran on the Guildford to Horsham line many years ago.
I believe Farish made some a few years back, but if they did they are like rocking horse poo.
It was Dapol who made the most recent Ivatt 2MT Tank about five or six years ago.
The initial batch were non-push-pull ones, they did BR Late Crest (2 Running Numbers) and LMS (Ditto).
Later they did two push-pull variants in BR livery too.
I have one of the originals and a later push-pull one. They are a lovely looking and well detailed model but by todays standards (Farish BR Standard 3MT Tank) the chassis is not that great. It runs smoothly enough but slow control is not fantastic.
The original version is also poor at going over pointwork without stalling. That is much to do with design I believe, with the cheapo plastic chassis being not especially "true" and not all wheels making good contact with rails. The later push-pull is better as it also has a pickup off the rear pony-truck.
By comparison the later Farish 3MT is a different proposition, it has a better metal chassis, see through spoked metal wheels, double reduction gearbox and is DCC ready. It only picks up off the loco wheels but is nonetheless far more reliable through pointwork as long as they are properly adjusted (Some that were delivered were not). There are two further versions of the model due in the next couple of months hopefully.
Hope this is of some help.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: EtchedPixels on August 25, 2012, 04:02:03 PM
According to the main manufacturers
- they cost as much to design as the big mainline locos
- they don't sell as well
The second of those may well be true, but for the majority of older tank locos the lack of outside valve gear and often even cylinders must make them cheaper than a tender loco with outside cylinders and valve gear. They do plenty of the latter, of course. The main reason has got to be sales - glamourous outsells workaday every time.
Thought - now the upgrade of the Farish GWR panniers has been out-flanked by Dapol, why not use the chassis under an all-new 94xx? I'm pretty sure the wheelbase is the same. There's a way of spreading devlopment costs.
I have a 'mature' GF 57xx out for repair due back soon-ish I hope, and a Dapol 57xx on order - been waiting ages and still no ETA.
Meanwhile my pair of autocoaches are parked up, waiting for Godo.
Quote from: daveg on August 25, 2012, 07:00:04 PM
I have a 'mature' GF 57xx out for repair due back soon-ish I hope, and a Dapol 57xx on order - been waiting ages and still no ETA.
Meanwhile my pair of autocoaches are parked up, waiting for Godo.
Hi Dave
I am surprised you say you have been waiting ages for the Dapol 57xx you have on order given that it was only even announced a couple of months back!
As far as I am aware Dapol's intention was that it would be released at TINGS in September.
Maybe somebody else can confirm?
Regards
Roy
There's also the Farish J94 Austerity saddle tank, still available at retail I think.
Minitrix made the tank version of the Ivatt 2MT as well as the tender version, like most Minitrix products it's a very good runner for its age, and not usually too pricey second hand.
Quote from: moogle on August 25, 2012, 03:16:13 PM
The J69 and GP tank are two very different beasties. The former fell apart when you removed the body for a start!
The J69 is often referred to as a Holden Tank, big motor, not very good for shunting or end to end layouts but great for roundy roundy types!
People often sell them on (or even give them away) once they lose the coupling rods but you can buy replacement ones. I think its BH Enterprises who do them.
I'd be interested to know if these are still available (don't appear to be on the BH website). I have a J69 missing the con rods which is a surprisingly good runner considering the flimsy plastic clip-together chassis and can motor!
Hi Roy
Having been prompted by your comment about the wait, I checked and you are right, 4 weeks - but it seems like ages!
Having read the review of forthcoming Dapol releases, including the tank, in the BRM, I asked Hattons if they had a shipping date and was told no news yet.
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 25, 2012, 08:43:12 PM
Minitrix made the tank version of the Ivatt 2MT as well as the tender version, like most Minitrix products it's a very good runner for its age, and not usually too pricey second hand.
I cannot speak specifically on the Minitrix Ivatt but many of their locos were compromised to some degree in order to fit the bodies on existing continental chassis.
Both the tank ands tender Minitrix versions had too big a boiler, but the tank sections were not too bad and well detailed. I wonder if a Farish/Minirix combination might work for a 2-6-2T, given the non-availabilty of the Dapol version. :hmmm:
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 25, 2012, 08:43:12 PM
There's also the Farish J94 Austerity saddle tank, still available at retail I think.
Minitrix made the tank version of the Ivatt 2MT as well as the tender version, like most Minitrix products it's a very good runner for its age, and not usually too pricey second hand.
Quote from: moogle on August 25, 2012, 03:16:13 PM
The J69 and GP tank are two very different beasties. The former fell apart when you removed the body for a start!
The J69 is often referred to as a Holden Tank, big motor, not very good for shunting or end to end layouts but great for roundy roundy types!
People often sell them on (or even give them away) once they lose the coupling rods but you can buy replacement ones. I think its BH Enterprises who do them.
I'd be interested to know if these are still available (don't appear to be on the BH website). I have a J69 missing the con rods which is a surprisingly good runner considering the flimsy plastic clip-together chassis and can motor!
I'm sure its part No BHE114. Worth a try at 75p for a pair! http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm (http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm)
Yes RTR tank's are few and far between.
Most of mine are kits on farish chassis. I have an N2, N7, L3, A5, three J50's and a Flatiron..May have some more but would have to check..
Why there is no J72 is beyond me..
Cudders
Quote from: cudders on August 25, 2012, 11:46:19 PM
Yes RTR tank's are few and far between.
That's very debatable and dependant on your perspective. There's one heck of a lot more RTR tank kettles than pre-grouping 'singles' or DC EMUs. :hmmm:
H.
I dont count GWR in this..loads of those types but not for me.
LNER and LMS were the biggest and most varied yet not that many types produced from the huge number available.
Cudders
Quote from: H on August 25, 2012, 11:56:46 PM
Quote from: cudders on August 25, 2012, 11:46:19 PM
Yes RTR tank's are few and far between.
That's very debatable and dependant on your perspective. There's one heck of a lot more RTR tank kettles than pre-grouping 'singles' or DC EMUs. :hmmm:
H.
Very true H. There's less tanks than tender loco's or diesels for example.
If you go by tank engine style, then there are very few.
After all, a pannier tank is still a pannier tank regardless of which xx it is.
And then there's size and wheel arrangement.
Most of whats available is in the 0-6-0 format and is either long (i.e GP tank) or short (i.e J94) bodied.
Whilst there's Dapols 14xx 0-4-2 and M7 0-4-4 there's nothing else!
No 0-4-0's for example. Mind you, there's no 4w diesels either so it's on a level pegging as far as that goes.
(Unless you count that hideous Lima effort! :-X)
There have been several 0-4-0 kits and there's still the N Brass Peckett.
Peco/Wills did a B4, and an Avonside for two examples.
Quote from: moogle on August 26, 2012, 12:37:45 AM
There's less tanks than tender loco's or diesels for example.
. . . . and there's more tanks than gas turbine locos, or DEMUs, or EMUs, or even DC electric locos for example. But that's the problem, once you start specifying the categories and adding in restrictions, just about anything can be declared and claimed.
Perhaps we should be more grateful with what we have in total and give manufcaturers encouragement for more, rather than comparing against other types/categories and moaning about our lot and how little it is. After all people have chipped in with suggestions about alternatives, kits, and other potential. :)
Now what about that pink loco I mentioned. . . . . :-X
H.
Quote from: moogle on August 25, 2012, 11:35:49 PM
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 25, 2012, 08:43:12 PM
There's also the Farish J94 Austerity saddle tank, still available at retail I think.
Minitrix made the tank version of the Ivatt 2MT as well as the tender version, like most Minitrix products it's a very good runner for its age, and not usually too pricey second hand.
Quote from: moogle on August 25, 2012, 03:16:13 PM
The J69 and GP tank are two very different beasties. The former fell apart when you removed the body for a start!
The J69 is often referred to as a Holden Tank, big motor, not very good for shunting or end to end layouts but great for roundy roundy types!
People often sell them on (or even give them away) once they lose the coupling rods but you can buy replacement ones. I think its BH Enterprises who do them.
I'd be interested to know if these are still available (don't appear to be on the BH website). I have a J69 missing the con rods which is a surprisingly good runner considering the flimsy plastic clip-together chassis and can motor!
I'm sure its part No BHE114. Worth a try at 75p for a pair! http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm (http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm)
Before anyone with one of these locos spends the extortionate sum 75p it is worth bearing in mind that replacing the rods will not necessarily cure the inherent problem with this loco.
There were two incarnations of the J69, the first (Which came in the plastic case) can be identified because externally the ends of the keeper plate are square and do not taper up and couplings are sprung. Internally the gears on the early models are integral with the axles. These may be worth a go at fixing.
Later ones with the tapered ends to the keeper-plate and those horrible droopy couplings had a plastic drive-gear that was an inteference fit on the axle. Almost always the reason for failure of this variant of the loco (and resultant ejection of the con-rods) was the splitting of a gear which would rotate uselessly on the axle and result in loss of synchronisation of the wheelsets).
In a box somewhere I have a boxed mint and working BR black one that I only rarely use and even thenwhen I do only with a very light trailing load. I also have another BR one which when I got it was caked solid with all kinds of gunge and grease. It had a hell of a life but still worked. I cleaned it out, and this one I do have more faith in. I figure if it was going to fail, given the abuse it had been put to, it would have done by now.
Anyway, sorry for long ramble, but the history of these early Farish locos is fascinating. As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread the real gem (for the time) is the very first 94xx Pannier (Again in the plastic case) this had a far superior chassis, that actually works and keeps on going (I think it has a Buhler can-motor). They also have all three axles driven, not just the outside two like the next and far inferior incarnation did.
Regards
Roy
I know life is a series of choices and priorities, but in the NGF Poll the only tank engine in the Steam Top Ten was the N2.
If it were possible the tank engine I'd like (yeah, I know, GWR again) would be the 56xx in BR livery. At least it's not an 0-6-0 :thumbsup:
Quote from: newportnobby on August 26, 2012, 02:57:17 PM
I know life is a series of choices and priorities, but in the NGF Poll the only tank engine in the Steam Top Ten was the N2.
If it were possible the tank engine I'd like (yeah, I know, GWR again) would be the 56xx in BR livery. At least it's not an 0-6-0 :thumbsup:
And is also available as a quite easy to build kit. Like the real beast it also has superb traction with the very heavy body.
Quote from: moogle on August 25, 2012, 11:35:49 PM
I'm sure its part No BHE114. Worth a try at 75p for a pair! http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm (http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm)
Didn't see that, thanks for the link! I was thinking of ordering some detailing parts from BH anyway, so will add them to my list.
(regarding Roy L S's comments, the main reason I want the connecting rods is for looks rather than functionality; the loco runs fine with a light load, but looks a bit odd with bare wheels! It's the later version with tapered keeper plate)
Quote from: E Pinniger on August 26, 2012, 05:10:22 PM
Quote from: moogle on August 25, 2012, 11:35:49 PM
I'm sure its part No BHE114. Worth a try at 75p for a pair! http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm (http://www.bh-enterprises.co.uk/page13.htm)
(regarding Roy L S's comments, the main reason I want the connecting rods is for looks rather than functionality; the loco runs fine with a light load, but looks a bit odd with bare wheels! It's the later version with tapered keeper plate)
The Holden's rods are only cosmetic. They have open ends rather than holes and locate behind the crankpins on the outer wheelsets (The centre axle just floats). The problem is that with the model you have if one gear is loose on the axle so that the two outer wheelsets do not rotate together, the rods will just fall out.
If by cosmetic you mean parked up in a siding then that's a different matter.
Cheers
Roy
Lets not forget the following tank loco body kits made Langley:
SR - E2 (both versions) & E5
LNER - N2, N7/3 & L3
LMS - Prince of Wales 4-6-2
GWR - 56xx & 97xx
Adding to the bodies available as kits are two LNER J52 bodies from Beaver and BH Enterprises respectively.
IMHO the Beaver kit looks better than the BHE version but both suffer from being stretched to fit the Farish GP tank chassis. The later 57xx chassis is almost spot on for this locomotive but the earliest versions of this came some time after the kits!
With both Dapol and Farish offering improved 57xx tank engines in the future someone may be looking to offer a new kit for fit this chassis - although both the older kits can be made to look quite respectable with a little hacking to there length.
The 'proper' Farish Jinty also has a useful chassis with a lower overall motor height than earlier chassis. Perhaps there may be suitable prototypes for kits for this too.
Most of the kits available seem to be fairly long in the tooth and utilise old Farish chassis. Is there much that is more modern and builds up to give a level of detail closer to modern RTR with just the parts provided in the kit?
As far as I'm aware many (if not most) locomotive body kits are at least several years old. The ability to produce something close to modern RTR is dependent on the skills of the builder.
Etched brass brings you close to RTR but again you need the skill to build it. New technologies such as 3D printing again offer another potential route but, at present, you'll still need to paint the model...
Quote from: Karhedron on August 28, 2012, 12:20:55 PM
Most of the kits available seem to be fairly long in the tooth and utilise old Farish chassis. Is there much that is more modern and builds up to give a level of detail closer to modern RTR with just the parts provided in the kit?
Even if there was you'd still have to assemble it. Most of it is about adding the fine detail - handrails and the like. You can do that to a white metal kit whether they included the handrail wire or not.
The link to Dr Al's N2 I posted earlier in this thread shows what can be done with these kits and a bit of care and attention.
A more modern kit won't change that, you'll still need to add things like handrails and vac pipes if you want a really finely detailed look.
Quote from: BernardTPM on August 28, 2012, 12:20:23 PM
The 'proper' Farish Jinty also has a useful chassis with a lower overall motor height than earlier chassis. Perhaps there may be suitable prototypes for kits for this too.
I tried the jinty chassis in a Langley E5 body the only modification necessary is to make a bracket to secure the rear of the chassis. At least it saves removing half of the pole pieces and magnet.
That's what I thought - a lot of older kits sat too high unless you were prepared to hack both the inside of the body and bits of the chassis. IIRC the Jinty chassis is at least imm, possibly 2mm, lower than the 'generic' chassis used in the 94xx, etc. since the late 1970s.
Short wheel-base locomotives are not successful on insul-frog points, hence their lack of favor, I feel.
If I had my vote it would be for an up-to-date J94!
Happy modelling
Paul A
Quote from: dodger on August 27, 2012, 12:34:22 PM
Lets not forget the following tank loco body kits made Langley:
SR - E2 (both versions) & E5
LNER - N2, N7/3 & L3
LMS - Prince of Wales 4-6-2
GWR - 56xx & 97xx
and Parkwood are doing a resin LNER V1 2-6-2T body . . . . . . .
Sounds like quite a list of tank loco kits available in N gauge is forming.
H.
Quote from: H link=topic=7369.msg84076#msg84076/quote]
and Parkwood are doing a resin LNER V1 2-6-2T body . . . . . . .
Sounds like quite a list of tank loco kits available in N gauge is forming.
H.
Hi H
Sadly Parkwood are not (yet?) releasing the V1/V3.
I saw it in your latest Nspirations (Great read by the way - keep up the excellent work) and e-mailed Parkwood to find out more details.
Stephen Searson's reply was: -
Hi,
The V1/3 is not available as I cannot get a suitable resin moulding to use for a casting master.
Regards,
Steve.
A shame, I would have bought one there and then.
Cheers
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on August 29, 2012, 08:51:50 PM
Sadly Parkwood are not (yet?) releasing the V1/V3.
Yep, that's right, as I said Parkwood are 'doing' one. It's not 'currently' available but he is working on it. The main pattern model has been made and AFAIA he's working on being able to produce a suitable casting mould for production. Fingers crossed it will be available soon.
H.