Class 41 Warship resin bodies on eBay (+ other oddball prototypes)

[DJM Dave]

Hi mods,

Sorry if you think this might be going a bit far, but I only think with this much mud, things should be clear now allowing the guys to proceed with their business having cleared everything up beforehand.

Not a nice subject I know, but these guys don't deserve sticking mud, but a clean run at this.
Cheers
Dave

[PaulCheffus]

Hi everyone I am the newbie on here, I am Gareth and I have painted several kits for A.E.M, I have also seen the masters for the current kits and the original paperwork stating the ownership of the actual masters to the former owner from previous owners before he gave them to to MR A Evans to settle an old debt in 2013.

Copyright
Until September 12th which is not that far away when I then retire, I am a Solicitor in Criminal/Civil and Human Rights law and I have a little experience with copyright law. So i will square some things up.

I have one of the original 85's - its a nicely done base but a bugger to find a suitable chassis for and you'll need to build up a lot of the roof detail by hand. I also have some class 82 conversion sides for it that were never released.

Class 85 actually fits the Dapol class 86 chassis, various Minitrix DB locomotive chassis units, I am waiting to hear back on which ones exactly and the Life Like FP40 Chassis unit. The previous owner only sold 2 as RTR because he actually had no confidence with the kit being made available as a unbuilt product, however Andrew has told me that the 2 sold where on Farish Poole/China Class 87 chassis units and a lot of metal had been removed and drive shafts where shortend.

Class 82 etches are in the box that Andrew inherited/was given along with a class 81 and they are due for building up and release.

The warship is almost certainly a clone of the earlier Worsley Works shell, and I imagine the new sellers will be getting ebay nastygrams and takedown notices as soon as Allen Doherty finds out (the only reason he never sued Carl is that Carl was otherwise detained for the public good anyway)

Class 41 Copyright belongs to North British who designed and patented the actual Locomotive design not Worsley Works or A.E.M, There is nothing to stop anyone going out and buying one of Worsley Works or Andrews kits or anyone else's and making duplicates from it, the only flaw is, they will be slightly smaller than the original and the detail would not be so be good.

That also btw means the resin 41 is wrong, one of the body sides is inverted, something that's immediately painfully obvious when you try and fit the nameplates correctly.

Wrong Again = I have actually looked into this, Andrew informs me that the master was incorrect when it first came out many years ago, new body side grill etches where produced for it and the the sides where corrected and the old mould was destroyed and a new one produced. there are photographs of it on eBay and Mark has kindly added photographs of the kit onto this site/forum.

The 25/1 if its the one H/N one I have a set of detailing etches for that were never released. It's not a bad model but watch which loco you pick, there are major differences between 25/1s (hinged grilles, extra bodyside vent). Think I'd wait for the new Farish one personally!

Each to their own

Alan

Just a note to say BHE released the baby deltic last year at TINGS this sold out very quickly it was the Silver Fox version and I think they have other models in the Silver Fox range under development as well as other exiting things I dont think the class 41 is one of them,unfortunatly the molding  machine broke recently and it is very old so some of the BHE range is on hold untill it can be repaired .
Bob

Andrew actually has the paperwork from the Silverfox company (and N.T.R for other products) informing CMA that Carl at that time was the new owner of those masters, basically what was the former Silverfox products now belong to Andrew Evans not any other Evans. However as I said earlier there is nothing under copyright law to prevent anyone making duplicates from any product unless the former owner/designer or company who actually patented it makes an issue.

I have sent several OO Gauge model products to a contact in China and have had them reproduced into N via Lithographic 3D Printing, with the intention of releasing them under A.E.M or G G M, however with stories flying around like the current ones, I think I will just give them to Mark, Andrew and Paul and stick to aircraft.

Gareth

Hope this Clarifies things and puts a few tell Fairy tale stories to bed.

Hi

So if I go out an cast a replica of let's say a farish body shell and then start selling it I am not breaking any laws. I have a feeling that Bachmann might have something to say about this regarding intellectual property. Same applies to Worsley Works, etc.

Cheers

Paul

[DJM Dave]

Hi Paul,

I must admit I thought that, but apparently not, as Gareth mentioned.

Cheers
Dave

[NeMo]

Crikey, I'm beginning to wish I hadn't started this thread. Saw some cool models, thought I'd share. Had no idea there was all this history to them! 

Cheers, NeMo

[red_death]

Gareth

Regardless of whether it is legal to build up someone else's work and cast it (and I'm far from convinced it is legal), it certainly is not moral.  You are depriving of the original manufacturer of income.

As to you disputing the quality of some of the mouldings - well if you or Andrew want photos of the 85 I bought recently you are welcome, they are not awful (I've seen much worse) but they are from perfect and will require a fair bit of tidying up filing and filling.

Cheers, Mike

[Pete @ EGLM]

And if he wasn't on a jolly, he'd be on Stapleforth at Woking that weekend!

Pete @ EGLML

[mark100]

Crikey, I'm beginning to wish I hadn't started this thread. Saw some cool models, thought I'd share. Had no idea there was all this history to them! 

Cheers, NeMo

I don't think the model kits can be blamed for what happend, they did'nt end up in the slammer, however i was asked to join by Gareth among'st other people to get ideas and told that he did'nt have the time for Forums, "Quote" I'm too busy for these chatty things, only to find he is conducting points of law on here. We are taking the bikes out later for a spin and I will hint from a safe distance, that it is a N Gauge forum and not Chambers.

Mark

[StufromEGDL]

And if he wasn't on a jolly, he'd be on Stapleforth at Woking that weekend!

Pete @ EGLML

Hi Pete,

Jolly...what jolly???

Later
Stu from EGDL.

[StufromEGDL]

Hi Gang,

I read with interest the various bits of 'mudslinging' that has gone on from both sides of the fence over the last few days. I have an interest in this as I have bought a Class 85 body to play with.....and like Mike says, it needs a modicum of work to make it acceptable.

I know that the previous custodian of these kits was less than fair about the provenance of the products and although AEM now 'owns' these products as a form of compensation, I think that the modelling community has moved on and the products now on sale do not unduly harm any of the previous (original) vendors.

I, for one, am happy to play with the casting I have in order to produce a more authentic looking model....and it will hopefully see the light of day this side of eternity.....

I was also going to report a particularly vindictive post to the Moderators, but on looking back through the thread, it now seems to have been removed, either by the Mods or the Author.....

Later,
Stu from EGDL.

[Agrippa]

What a furore over a little piece of plastic.....

[mark100]

I was also going to report a particularly vindictive post to the Moderators, but on looking back through the thread, it now seems to have been removed, either by the Mods or the Author.....

Later,
Stu from EGDL.

I think that it was removed because the individual who it was concerning dialed the 9's because it was very malicious and could have put him at risk of vigil anti attack.

Class 85, I have only seen 2 in the flesh/resin??? and both look alright to me, 1 is in the white and blue and the other is the same with small yellow ends, i think 1 is going to be powered and the other put on a dummy chassis and sold off as a pair by Andrew, I have not seen any in the blue and yellow front end livery yet.

Jollies!!!! i'm just about to have my dinner, then 20 off us are taking our Choppers (2 wheeled type,not class 20 or anything rude) up to the Heights of Abraham on a afternoon jolly. Beep Beep!

Mark

[EtchedPixels]

I'm really glad to see the models back but if the 41 is cast off a Worsley kit... and it contains the same facepalm grade errrors.. then I would be a bit less cavalier.

A railway model is accordingl to my legal advice covered by copyright law as a sculpture, so resin casting them without permission is a matter of copyright law and knowingly doing so commercially in the UK is a criminal matter.

Worsley were preparing to sue Mr Peplow so you might want to have a talk with Allen Doherty about royalties. I think you'll find him accomodating.

I somewhere still have the conversion sides done to help produce a class 82 master from the 85. If you want to do the 82 drop me a note and when the sheet it is on is re-run 'll send you a set. They were done to enable the 82 to be done in resin from the 85 so it would be nice to see it happen

Alan

[mark100]

I'm really glad to see the models back but if the 41 is cast off a Worsley kit... and it contains the same facepalm grade errrors.. then I would be a bit less cavalier.

A railway model is accordingl to my legal advice covered by copyright law as a sculpture, so resin casting them without permission is a matter of copyright law and knowingly doing so commercially in the UK is a criminal matter.

Worsley were preparing to sue Mr Peplow so you might want to have a talk with Allen Doherty about royalties. I think you'll find him accomodating.

I somewhere still have the conversion sides done to help produce a class 82 master from the 85. If you want to do the 82 drop me a note and when the sheet it is on is re-run 'll send you a set. They were done to enable the 82 to be done in resin from the 85 so it would be nice to see it happen

Alan

Hi Alan
Myself and Gareth both spoke to Andrew yesterday and got the story concerning the class 41 locomotive, The drawings came from a book that Andrew now has called British Rail Main line diesels and it has 4mm drawings in it, Apparently Carl gave W-Works the book to use and to produce some of the kits he has. A class 41 was later produced in resin and Carl spotted flaws with it when he went to apply name plates and scrapped everything and started again using the same book and a different etching company who produced the master that now belongs to A.E.M, Andrew states that the body side detail is correct on both sides of his master and everything is where it should be and also the grills are not recessed like they are on W Works kits but they stick out as per the original locomotive.

If any proceedings are going to take place, its going to be over a posting that was removed from this thread the other night and Gareth was looking forward to his retirement. the printer nearly caught fire when he read that!

I can confirm that Andrew has found class 82 sides but there are 2 types and a decision needs to be made on which type to do, the option is for them to 3D print locos from now and copy a design with a 121 unit they have, where it has its own base chassis frame and parts from another chassis unit are used, that way everything can be accurate and no more discussions on what chassis units can be used and where they can be obtained.

The Gibson family own a Stone Masonry and some crates have arrived with various 3D printing equipment in them, but they have been fork lifted out of everyone's way until Richard arrives back from his holidays and can assemble and train everyone on them, if kits need wheels and other bits then I am sure a 3D design can be created to produce wheels and other metal parts as long as Gareth and Andrew pay for the materials they are using and do not steel from us.

I will text Andrew and get him to read your posting when he is at his next bus stop and if he needs anything then he can contact you. Thank you for being helpful 

Mark