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Notices, Help With Problems and Your Forum Ideas... => Computer Help => Topic started by: trkilliman on May 30, 2018, 11:44:39 AM

Title: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: trkilliman on May 30, 2018, 11:44:39 AM
Around a week back when I switched on my laptop it said that a Windows 10 update was available. Like most people I went ahead and started the update. It told me it was a large update and would take some time, with my p.c closing and restarting. I therefore left it to get on with it.

When it had reached the 80% complete stage it all went t**s up as they say. My laptop was sort of frozen in a set cycle, with a returning screen asking me what language I required for the keyboard input. Try as I did I could not get out of the cycle. A trip to the repair shop once again.

The chap in the shop said "Oh' another one"     Apparently they had a spate of pc's with the same or very similar problem. He said the download was so big many pc's could not cope with it. As I was collecting it a chap came in with what sounded an identical problem.

As I have had problems with Windows crashing before, I went for a new hard drive, a solid state one which he said was much quicker than the manufacturer fitted one. He transferred the bulk of my data over and as many will have guessed this episode cost me a few quid...

I said that maybe I should resist future prompts for windows updates, but he said that after some 30 days or so they will automatically download.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: emjaybee on May 30, 2018, 12:15:44 PM
That sucks, but it's PAR for the course with MicroShaft.

If you really want to you can actually stop updates completely  (with the exception of security ones). I spent a lot of money on a very fast laptop (45s boot time), the first system update extended that to 120s. I backed it out, and found an easy, easily reversible if required, way of stopping updates completely. I also don't use MS email or web browser. My laptop remains stable, crash free, and fast. I do run a comprehensive Norton antivirus etc. package.

The future's bright, as long as MS aren't involved.

Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 30, 2018, 12:42:19 PM
This is an age old problem.

Unfortunately PC manufacturers make down specked models, to get the price down, that only just meet the version of windows that they ship with their machine at purchase. 

These, usually Chinese, manufacturers don't care about future upgrades as they will have changed their models by the time the next big upgrade comes along.  So if you have a low price, usually notebook, expect problems if you let it upgrade as soon as a big upgrade is released.   

As a point of habit I wait three months before allowing major upgrades to my machines as by that time Microsoft has generally added fixes to make windows compatible with these rouge designs.

Also check your notebook manufacturer website for BIOS upgrades, as these are usually released to correct upgrade incompatibilities.  NB upgrade BIOS before OS.

Also if your preferred PC manufacturer does not have an upgrade download site DO NOT BUY FORM THIS MANUFACTURER.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: BobB on May 30, 2018, 01:13:32 PM
You may be correct in all you say "Snowwolfair" but that does not make it acceptable. We have countless stories on this forum about tales of woe from this manufacturer or other (even had one about a Union Mills locomotive the other week !) but Microsoft have been selling bad products for years and everyone accepts it because they need their computer to produce compatible data.

I am surprised that the judicial powers that be have not insisted on re-calls, compensation and other penalties for Microsoft. They have yet to produce an operating system that works reliably since the first Windows. Whenever they seem to get close, it's enhanced, re-issued and messed up again.

With all of the concerns about data security, how is it that Microsoft gets away with taking every thing from our computers and we needing third party software to stop them. Then Microsoft have the gall to try and neutralize that software so that they can carry on seeing what we are doing.

I wish the rant was over but my clients use Microsoft so I have to; therefor I'll probably rant again next time !
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Bob G on May 30, 2018, 01:35:42 PM
if its your hobby computer, its a bore.
if its both your work computers, and you are self-employed, using a laptop and PC 24/7, it's a nightmare.
And these are what I consider high spec new machines by Acer and Dell.

I have had to hire an IT wizard to fix the last two W10 upgrades. I call him a wizard as I dont understand half of what he says.
His first comment was - there are lots of people in the same boat Bob, so don't feel so bad.
His next was - if you wait a couple of weeks MS will have issued the patches to fix it.

Bob
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: NinOz on May 30, 2018, 01:50:23 PM
Quote from: trkilliman on May 30, 2018, 11:44:39 AM
I said that maybe I should resist future prompts for windows updates, but he said that after some 30 days or so they will automatically download.
Win10 sure does, no option to prevent downloads and install unless you own the pro version and even then you have to edit the registry; I got home version.  Damn pain in the butt. :(

My Win10 laptop would not boot properly after an update, just continuous reboots.  Some problem with new USB drivers that were part of the download.  Could get it working by reverting to a saved system image of 7 months ago but it would slowly download the update over several weeks (selected paid connection option to throttle download speed) and then automatically install.  Just had to revert again and again for 6 months.  Couldn't find any solution on the web even though many other people reported the same problem.  Eventually even the system reset didn't work so had to bite the bullet and reinstall windows 10.  Didn't lose data but had to download and/or install most programs.  However updates didn't cause a continuous reboot anymore.

Interesting story about waiting for a period to install updates.  At work our IT security group had a policy of not installing any upgrade or update for 3 months.  Guess who didn't install a security update for a worm exploit and had over 200 computers infected within an hour.  Were saved from all 450+ comps being infected as over half had been shut down for the night.  Some embarrasing explanations to management required.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 30, 2018, 01:55:36 PM
Oh I upgrade security updates regularly but I also have three anti-virus programs on my machine as well :)

Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: port perran on May 30, 2018, 03:34:10 PM
Since I retired, I haven't used my laptop. I used to use it for work as I found a tablet a bit too small.
I rely entirely on my ipad now though as it allows me to access all my old work files (predominantly Excel and Word). I can access my HMRC calculations etc and all my photos.
So....do I still need my laptop?
I'll keep it but if I haven't used it for 7 months I giess I'm not going to need it now.
I suppose I can also cancel  my Norton subscription as I don't use it on my ipad?
Can anyone think of a reason why I sho7ldn't take this  course of action?

Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: PostModN66 on May 30, 2018, 04:41:54 PM
Exactly this happened to me last week, in the middle of delivering a training course in Germany. Fortunately I had my material on USB and I could borrow a laptop.  It cost me £70 to have windows loaded from scratch at my local PC shop.  My laptop is a Lenovo. 

Not impressed.

Cheers Jon
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: emjaybee on May 30, 2018, 04:44:56 PM
Quote from: port perran on May 30, 2018, 03:34:10 PM
Since I retired, I haven't used my laptop. I used to use it for work as I found a tablet a bit too small.
I rely entirely on my ipad now though as it allows me to access all my old work files (predominantly Excel and Word). I can access my HMRC calculations etc and all my photos.
So....do I still need my laptop?
I'll keep it but if I haven't used it for 7 months I giess I'm not going to need it now.
I suppose I can also cancel  my Norton subscription as I don't use it on my ipad?
Can anyone think of a reason why I sho7ldn't take this  course of action?

Why haven't you got Norton running on the iPad? That would be a concern for me, I have Norton running on my phone!

:hmmm:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: RailGooner on May 30, 2018, 04:57:51 PM
Windows can't install an update that it can't download. Windows (any version,) will not download updates over a metered connection.

I have a tablet that only has 6 GB of free space, and a virtual machine that does lengthy video transcoding jobs. The former doesn't have enough free space to reliably complete major version updates without fettling. The latter, I don't want Windows deciding to restart in order to complete updating in the middle of a transcoding job. both have their network connections set as dial-up (i.e. a metered connection) and never cause me any grief.

Knowing the importance of installing security updates in a timely manner, I manually check for and install updates on these two machines at least monthly. :angel:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on May 30, 2018, 06:41:35 PM
Yes, stop paying for Norton PP, should've done so years ago, Windows Defender is plenty good enough these days.

Also Snowwolflair... 3 AV programmes? No wonder you have problems with your system!

I've literally never had a problem caused by a Windows update, I think the problem is usually conflict between Windows and some quirky software or hardware, and it's hardly Microsoft's fault that they can't test compatibility with every such item.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 30, 2018, 07:06:41 PM
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2018, 06:41:35 PM
Yes, stop paying for Norton PP, should've done so years ago, Windows Defender is plenty good enough these days.

Also Snowwolflair... 3 AV programmes? No wonder you have problems with your system!

I've literally never had a problem caused by a Windows update, I think the problem is usually conflict between Windows and some quirky software or hardware, and it's hardly Microsoft's fault that they can't test compatibility with every such item.

I never have problems with my system, but I am running an industrial 8 core system with 16gb memory and quad monitors.  Think bridge of USS Enterprise.  :D

But seriously I sit behind a serious firewall and I use a mail service that blocks all threats and is professionally maintained, so I do my best to stay clear of problems.

I have been around PCs since I designed some of the first ones so I trust no one and nothing in the IT space unless they prove they know what they are about.

Oh yes I forgot my system backs up every file update in real time through my local network to a secure server.  So if I was ever to crash I can re image my machine to within seconds of the crash.

Me, paranoid, never. :goggleeyes:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: PostModN66 on May 30, 2018, 08:29:32 PM
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2018, 06:41:35 PM
I've literally never had a problem caused by a Windows update, I think the problem is usually conflict between Windows and some quirky software or hardware, and it's hardly Microsoft's fault that they can't test compatibility with every such item.

Maybe....but they should design the upgrades that in the event of a conflict it doesn't completely destroy your operating system and all your data......whilst messages appear on screen saying "leave it to us" and "almost done".

In my eyes Bill Gates owes me £70 for the reinstallation - and maybe a few hundred for the stress and embarrassment!  I am not expecting to get it!  :confused1:

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: guest311 on May 30, 2018, 08:38:53 PM
off topic, but I remember having a problem with my laptop years ago, so I took in to work on my next shift, and asked one of the IT guys to look at it.

he gave it to me on his way out when he finished a couple of hours later, and told me it was all fixed.

"what was it ?" I asked.

"just an I-D-10-T fault" he replied, with a smile.

took me ages to work out what he meant  :veryangry: :censored:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: ntpntpntp on May 30, 2018, 08:51:09 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 30, 2018, 08:29:32 PM
...they should design the upgrades that in the event of a conflict it doesn't completely destroy your operating system and all your data......whilst messages appear on screen saying "leave it to us" and "almost done".

Windows updates/upgrades have never lost any of my user data so that seems very odd if you've had that happen.  A scratch install might lose track of the user folder associations with system accounts but even then they're probably still there on the disk unless you get it to format the drive as part of the install.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on May 30, 2018, 08:54:23 PM
Quote from: class37025 on May 30, 2018, 08:38:53 PM"just an I-D-10-T fault" he replied, with a smile.

took me ages to work out what he meant  :veryangry: :censored:

Also known as a PICNIC error; problem in chair, not in computer.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: BlythPower on May 30, 2018, 09:19:36 PM
Windows 10 updates aren't too painful for me (but I still try to put the biggies off as long as possible). However, when W10 forced it's way onto a perfectly good Win 8.1 system, it's constant attempts at downloading trashed the hard drive.  :'(  :veryangry2:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on May 30, 2018, 09:21:31 PM
That literally makes no sense.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: guest311 on May 30, 2018, 09:25:45 PM
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2018, 08:54:23 PM
Quote from: class37025 on May 30, 2018, 08:38:53 PM"just an I-D-10-T fault" he replied, with a smile.

took me ages to work out what he meant  :veryangry: :censored:

Also known as a PICNIC error; problem in chair, not in computer.

:-[ :D
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 06:44:18 AM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on May 30, 2018, 08:51:09 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 30, 2018, 08:29:32 PM
...they should design the upgrades that in the event of a conflict it doesn't completely destroy your operating system and all your data......whilst messages appear on screen saying "leave it to us" and "almost done".

Windows updates/upgrades have never lost any of my user data so that seems very odd if you've had that happen.  A scratch install might lose track of the user folder associations with system accounts but even then they're probably still there on the disk unless you get it to format the drive as part of the install.

Hi Ntpntpntp,

The data might be (have been) there for somebody with the expertise and time to track it down;  but in practical terms for a well-intentioned basic user of Windows (me) without hours to spare Googling solutions or using up the goodwill of friends in helping, the data did not exist.  Certainly not at 7:30 AM in a hotel room in Germany with an hour to have breakfast, set up the room and get my presentation started!  And of course, I couldn't Google solutions or e-mail anyone for help because.....I didn't have an operating system.....!!

Cheers Jon  :)


Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Bikeracer on May 31, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
It seems nearly impossible to buy a PC today that doesn't have Windows and all it's bloatware pre installed.
Microsoft seems to decide what people have software wise whether they want it or not.

It's the same with the Xbox, I buy a game but I still have to log in to be able to play it.

I don't want to start any debate but I've been using a Mac for over five years without being locked out while the frequent updates load and install that I had as a Windows user.
It just worked out of the box.

Allan
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: red_death on May 31, 2018, 10:41:11 AM
Yet I've had issues with both Macs that I've had or family have had - particularly around access to networks and file sharing - so it is swings and roundabouts!

Mac should be able to ensure (in a way that MS never can) that software and hardware work flawlessly with no conflicts as they control both parts and only have a limited amount of hardware to support.  MS don't have that luxury.

Like others I normally wait a short while to see if there are any reported problems with Updates.  The last set of W10 updates were clearly a large update but installed flawlessly on my MS Surface - it required several reboots but that all happened automatically.

Most of the problems seem to be bizarre software or hardware combinations that are not the fault of MS (nor could they be reasonably expected to have tested every combination!).

The past few versions of Windows have been marked improvements in stability (from W7 on and even before that with XP).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: BobB on May 31, 2018, 10:52:34 AM
I disagree with you red_death

If Microsoft got the operating system correct in the first place there would be no need for all of the updates and the so called enhancements (bloatware as it has been named in this thread) could be optional - even paid for if they're worthwhile.

Whatever the excuse, Microsoft is forcing us to accept software which damages the computer's usability. This is not acceptable. How would you feel if your decoder was updated and then the loco would either not move at all or would do what it wants regardless of your instructions - maybe turning lights on or off, running at full speed rather than at the top voltage setting you want (Are you reading this Bachmann !)

If I had the money I would sue them.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 10:56:56 AM
Hi Mike,

Yeah but.........!

As someone who just wants an easy life; how do I know if my software is bizarre?  On my laptop, I had Microsoft Office, Anyrail, AVG Virus checker,......and that's all I can remember cos it has all gone now!!

Whenever something goes wrong with my computer my friends all blame it on me....I have used the wrong setting, installed or not installed the wrong software etc.....but they can't tell me before it happens!  And I try and stick to the most vanilla low-stress approaches exactly 'cos I fear this kind of meltdown, and rely on my computer "live".


A month ago, I went down to my garage and found the engine had been ripped out of my car.  It turned out to be  a team from Ford who had broken into my garage to modify my car, and found that they couldn't reinstall the engine afterwards.......

Not really, but it's the same thing as happened on my computer  :worried:

Hope all going well with you Mike and various RevolutioN projects.

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: austinbob on May 31, 2018, 11:03:50 AM
Of course many of the updates are to address new security threats which hackers are always coming up with. Some of the 'bloatware' may appear to be as such to us but many of the new features are welcomed by some users and were probably identified as new requirements by Microsoft's market research.

As for updates causing problems with usability with some PC's/laptops or whatever, as red_death said earlier its impossible to test all the possible combinations of hardware and software, both new and legacy. So some problems are inevitable.

Unfortunate but inevitable.
:beers:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 10:56:56 AM
Hi Mike,

Yeah but.........!

As someone who just wants an easy life; how do I know if my software is bizarre?  On my laptop, I had Microsoft Office, Anyrail, AVG Virus checker,......and that's all I can remember cos it has all gone now!!

Whenever something goes wrong with my computer my friends all blame it on me....I have used the wrong setting, installed or not installed the wrong software etc.....but they can't tell me before it happens!  And I try and stick to the most vanilla low-stress approaches exactly 'cos I fear this kind of meltdown, and rely on my computer "live".


A month ago, I went down to my garage and found the engine had been ripped out of my car.  It turned out to be  a team from Ford who had broken into my garage to modify my car, and found that they couldn't reinstall the engine afterwards.......

Not really, but it's the same thing as happened on my computer  :worried:

Hope all going well with you Mike and various RevolutioN projects.

Cheers Jon  :)

I like your analogy but its the wrong way round.

The engine is the computer hardware and the engine management software is the OS, and guess what if you take your car in to Ford for a service they will change the engine management software without telling you.


OK time to stand back and explain what is going on.

Microsoft has to design one package of individual programs that together make up windows.  This pack of software has to work with every different hardware configuration by every stupid hardware manufacturer or Microsoft know they will be blamed for it not working.  Some years also Microsoft started to issue compliance certificates for hardware that they warrant will work with their software and these designs are allowed to be labeled as compliant and are pretty bomb proof.  So what did the Chinese do, they printed their own fake labels and carried on fooling the market with badly designed machines that fail and are the cheap ones a vast number of people buy.

Windows works with the properly designed and Microsoft tested computers - there are tens of thousands of pages of compliance specifications - and these machines don't fall over due to non malicious errors (malicious viruses etc. will kill any computer).  They may be life limited due to software version upgrades but that's inevitable.  For instance, my best computer is a Dell that wont upgrade from windows 7 to windows 10 as its BIOS wont support it.

Where I disagree with Microsoft is forced upgrades.  My windows 7 machine gets told to upgrade to windows 10 every quarter with the quarterly security updates, it cannot be stopped and they need to sort this out. 

As I understand it Widows CORE OS (you heard it here first) will take a different approach forcing the hardware manufacturers to leap well ahead of this new OS so as the software is upgraded it wont hit a hardware buffer.  The hardware requirement will be completely different so there will be no upgrade path form our current PCs, resulting in a new tightly specified architecture that manufacturers will need to adhere to and CORE OS will only be available as a pre-installed OS certified by Microsoft.  this is why Windows 7 onward all user software and programs can no longer talk to the hardware, rather talking through the OS meaning the hardware structure is slowly becoming irrelevant.

Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: emjaybee on May 31, 2018, 11:35:43 AM
Quote from: austinbob on May 31, 2018, 11:03:50 AM
Of course many of the updates are to address new security threats which hackers are always coming up with. Some of the 'bloatware' may appear to be as such to us but many of the new features are welcomed by some users and were probably identified as new requirements by Microsoft's market research.

As for updates causing problems with usability with some PC's/laptops or whatever, as red_death said earlier its impossible to test all the possible combinations of hardware and software, both new and legacy. So some problems are inevitable.

Unfortunate but inevitable.
:beers:

Ok...

...please explain how the first 'system' update on a new Win10 laptop with a new copy of MS Office resulted with Word crashing every time I opened a document that had been created on the same machine?

Backed the update out, everything fine again.

System updates are now disabled (yes you can, it's easy to do and easy to undo), laptop is stable.

MS are second rate, they just have a monopoly which can't be broken and deep pockets so can get away with it and just pay any fines with their loose change.

Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 11:32:35 AM

I like your analogy but its the wrong way round.

The engine is the computer hardware and the engine management software is the OS, and guess what if you take your car in to Ford for a service they will change the engine management software without telling you.


A fair point, Snowwolflair but if it were Ford that destroyed the engine management software, I would expect them to fix it.  Microsoft are completely unaccountable.

My Laptop is a Lenovo, not a cheap budget model.  Ironically my second-spare £150 "e-machines" laptop was apparently unaffected.    :confused1:

I don't normally get pulled into these discussions, but I feel increasingly frustrated by Microsoft and the rest of the computer industry...  >:(.    Letting off a bit of steam!!!


Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 11:55:55 AM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 11:32:35 AM

I like your analogy but its the wrong way round.

The engine is the computer hardware and the engine management software is the OS, and guess what if you take your car in to Ford for a service they will change the engine management software without telling you.


A fair point, Snowwolflair but if it were Ford that destroyed the engine management software, I would expect them to fix it.  Microsoft are completely unaccountable.

My Laptop is a Lenovo, not a cheap budget model.  Ironically my second-spare £150 "e-machines" laptop was apparently unaffected.    :confused1:

I don't normally get pulled into these discussions, but I feel increasingly frustrated by Microsoft and the rest of the computer industry...  >:(.    Letting off a bit of steam!!!


Cheers Jon  :)

I think Lindi has the answer.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 12:05:01 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 11:32:35 AM

I like your analogy but its the wrong way round.

The engine is the computer hardware and the engine management software is the OS, and guess what if you take your car in to Ford for a service they will change the engine management software without telling you.


A fair point, Snowwolflair but if it were Ford that destroyed the engine management software, I would expect them to fix it.  Microsoft are completely unaccountable.

My Laptop is a Lenovo, not a cheap budget model.  Ironically my second-spare £150 "e-machines" laptop was apparently unaffected.    :confused1:

I don't normally get pulled into these discussions, but I feel increasingly frustrated by Microsoft and the rest of the computer industry...  >:(.    Letting off a bit of steam!!!


Cheers Jon  :)

In theory Ford engines and software is a closed system like Apples.

However lets say you buy and fit a Chinese alternator to your Ford and at the next service when the engine management system is updated it fails, who is responsible?

Similarly if you buy a fake Ford, can you blame Ford that their software does not work on it.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 12:22:38 PM
This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one..

Should I have known that Avast was "bad" software?

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: red_death on May 31, 2018, 12:23:22 PM
Thanks Lindi and Snowwolflair - some fascinating stuff.

Individual problems kind of demonstrate my point - I'm definitely not blaming users and completely sympathise with anyone affected (having had my work desktop fail yesterday - nothing to do with MS!) - but without seeing the set up of your computer it is difficult to comment on why YOUR computer had a problem. Though as Lindi has pointed out there can be some common problems with particular software interactions.

Like most things in this world we hear about when things have gone wrong much more than we do about things going right.

None of which is any consolation if it is your PC that is affected!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 12:31:24 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 12:22:38 PM
This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one..

Should I have known that Avast was "bad" software?

Cheers Jon  :)

No way for you to to know but waiting for others to find failures before upgrading is always a good strategy. 

My view is that Avast has not tested their software properly before release or have done something "not yet" specified by Microsoft.  Bit like changing lanes on a motorway while looking in the other direction. :doh:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on May 31, 2018, 12:37:56 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 12:22:38 PM
This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one..

Should I have known that Avast was "bad" software?

No, probably not. Back in the day there was a real need for 3rd party anti virus software. These days Windows Defender is as good as any of them for 99.9% of users. It'll run better, won't slow your system down as much and won't introduce these conflicts. Save you money too.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 12:40:21 PM
Quote from: njee20 on May 31, 2018, 12:37:56 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 31, 2018, 12:22:38 PM
This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one..

Should I have known that Avast was "bad" software?

No, probably not. Back in the day there was a real need for 3rd party anti virus software. These days Windows Defender is as good as any of them for 99.9% of users. It'll run better, won't slow your system down as much and won't introduce these conflicts. Save you money too.

Is Windows Defender something that comes with Windows 10?  And do you have to do anything to start it running, or will it do so by default?

Or should I Google the above questions?  ::)

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on May 31, 2018, 12:43:01 PM
It's definitely there by default, but may be disabled to minimise conflict with AVG. open the start menu and type Defender - should bring it up.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: ntpntpntp on May 31, 2018, 01:24:39 PM
Must admit none of our household's AVG protected PCs suffered any problems with last year's Windows Creator Update nor with any subsequent updates.

I noticed our music studio PC went through a big update a couple of nights ago but I've not yet checked it over since.

I am going off AVG though, it's putting up too many nagging boxes about trialing this-and-that other bits of software etc. which I'm not interested in. I probably will switch our boxes back to Defender at some point when I can be bothered!
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: trkilliman on May 31, 2018, 02:09:52 PM
Wow, what a response to my original post about the W10 update messing up my acer laptop.

Comments about windows defender being quite adequate are very interesting. Are we paying some, if not all of these virus protection companies for nothing?   It makes me think back to a previous occasion when windows crashed, after using an extra "facility" that comes with my paid for antivirus. I thought I would use their find and erase duplicates tab...and it crashed Windows.

The owner of my local p.c. repair shop, said that antivirus concerns should stick just to that, and offering all of the "extras" to endear them to customers actually causes more harm than good in most cases.

Since getting my laptop back a few day ago, I have struggled to reinstate my virus protection license and have downloaded their free trial.

I am beginning to wonder if I should bother, and simply use Windows defender...?
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 02:15:29 PM
Malewarbytes is the best of a bad bunch.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: dodger on May 31, 2018, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 31, 2018, 02:15:29 PM
Malewarbytes is the best of a bad bunch.

Have to agree with you on that statement.

Incidentally this was the first MS major update that didn't mess my settings and personalising up, but again a number of useless and unwanted programs were added to waste hard drive space.

Why do I have to use onedrive and can I delete it?.

Dodger
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Nick on May 31, 2018, 04:37:04 PM
Quote from: trkilliman on May 31, 2018, 02:09:52 PM
I am beginning to wonder if I should bother, and simply use Windows defender...?
Short answer - yes.

I can't put my hand on current usage stats, but it's now running on a large proportion of PCs. Obviously, since it ships with all modern machines.

I've been using MSE/Defender on all the machines I am responsible for over 7 or 8 years, I forget exactly. That was up to 20 at one time, and is now 4. Yay! In addition, I've recommended it to anyone who asked, so am probably responsible for over 30 installations, and many more physical  machines as various items have been swapped out or replaced.

I've never had a problem with any of them, nor has any machine become infected. YMMV.

Why pay for something bundled in the OS and whose definitions are updated very regularly?


Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: guest311 on May 31, 2018, 04:39:25 PM
from my experience, you can't get rid of most of the c**p that comes with windows, you just have to live with it, or consider linux, which was my son-in-law's suggestion.

tried to uninstall lots of the bits I don't want / use but it won't let me
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Nick on May 31, 2018, 04:41:30 PM
Quote from: dodger on May 31, 2018, 04:21:33 PM
Why do I have to use onedrive and can I delete it?.

Dodger
You don't have to use it, and can uninstall it (at least on my W10 installation). I don't know how much space that will save as OneDrive is an integral part of MS's current strategy, so is probably fairly deeply embedded in the OS. You may well only be uninstalling the user interface.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: ntpntpntp on May 31, 2018, 06:42:09 PM
You certainly don't *have* to use OneDrive.  I only use it to share recordings with the rest of my band.   I encourage everyone in our household to store their data on our central network drive which is backed up (reasonably) regularly and the copy kept off-site.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Philip. on June 01, 2018, 05:23:26 PM
glad to know I'm not the only one, this latest W10 update completely bricked my lappy  :veryangry: slowly but surely getting it back working  >:(
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: woodbury22uk on June 02, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
The only issue I had was that it appeared to delete the driver for the "English - United Kingdom" keyboard, which I had to download and make the default. The original default "English - United States" version gives # instead of £, and something else for @, as well as some other obscurities.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: trkilliman on June 02, 2018, 02:10:40 PM
So is anyone else using Windows Defender as their antivirus please?
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: austinbob on June 02, 2018, 02:16:55 PM
Quote from: trkilliman on June 02, 2018, 02:10:40 PM
So is anyone else using Windows Defender as their antivirus please?
After reading all the posts I started using it yesterday together with Malwarebytes.
:beers:
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Nick on June 02, 2018, 02:24:56 PM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on June 02, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
The only issue I had was that it appeared to delete the driver for the "English - United Kingdom" keyboard, which I had to download and make the default. The original default "English - United States" version gives # instead of £, and something else for @, as well as some other obscurities.
I think that may be because MS are rolling out something called "Locale Experience Packs" (I may have got the name wrong). The intention being to bring all the locale specific settings like keyboards, units and dictionaries together in one place, making it easier to change setups and run multiple languages on one machine. I think. Digging into it is on the to-do list, but a long way down...
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Dr Al on June 04, 2018, 09:55:10 AM
This is where I fundamentally object to the way things are headed in the computing world - we essentially have less and less control of our own machines (and worse, our data) that we paid for and therefore should be able to do as we wish with - i.e. turn off updates, schedule them appropriately. Moreover, the data collection (which is really where MS wants to make the money now in windows, as functionality additions are scant between versions now) is large and generally reasonably hidden, so the average user will just let it happen. There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing quite how much gets sent to MS, even when you turn a lot of it off, and more videos showing how to turn *all* of it off.

Quite simply, I've stuck with Windows 7, given I have an "Ultimate" license for it. I have a cloned boot hard drive as a backup with a known good functioning recent copy of my install on it (I do this periodically) so that if the install does get borked for any reason, I can be functional again in 30 seconds by simply changing which drive I boot from. The drive itself is an old disk form an old machine, so cost nothing - slow, but would keep things going until the faster SSD was put right.

There's no functional improvement in Win10 that does anything better - if anything it's dumbed down. My workplace is the same, and they do not update until OSs are properly established and shown as trouble free (typically 3 years!). The only thing you can't do on a win 7 rig nowadays is DirectX12 gaming, otherwise I see little need to upgrade - Cortana is simply a data mining exercise, and no functionally better than simply googling what I want to know.

In terms of security, the key is having a good firewall, antivirus (free ones like AVG seem ok to me), but much more crucially you need to be utterly ruthless with what you open on your machine - no emails of unknown origin (and certainly *NO* attachments from unknown origin, and those you do open should be scanned), no memory sticks with unknown origin files on them (scan them), and no dubious websites. I have also switched to using Opera as a web browser as it's fast, but more importantly has inbuilt ad-blocking and an inbuilt free VPN to stop websites tracking your IP.

I suspect the time is coming where MS will be unseated as the dominant OS supplier - they have nothing new, novel or groundbreaking to offer since WinXP, IMHO, and I suspect they are well aware of it. When Win7 support runs out, I suspect many will be exploring changing to Linux.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2018, 10:02:58 AM
Quote from: Dr Al on June 04, 2018, 09:55:10 AM

I suspect the time is coming where MS will be unseated as the dominant OS supplier - they have nothing new, novel or groundbreaking to offer since WinXP, IMHO, and I suspect they are well aware of it. When Win7 support runs out, I suspect many will be exploring changing to Linux.

Can't see it myself. According to data from StatCounter here (http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-201803-201803-bar), the market share is as follows:

Windows: 81.73%
macOS: 13.16%
Unknown: 2.46%
Linux: 1.66%
Chrome OS: 0.98%

You can as good as ignore MacOS as those are obviously Mac users, so you're talking about needing a 2300% increase in Linux users for it to equal Microsoft! That assumes that everyone leaves Microsoft for Linux rather than any alternative too.

Linux is very niche, and will never achieve mass market penetration. I think you grossly overestimate how many people are disenchanted with Windows!
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Dr Al on June 04, 2018, 10:21:02 AM
Quote from: njee20 on June 04, 2018, 10:02:58 AM
Windows: 81.73%

I think the key thing is that still a very large portion of that is Win 7 (much more than MS want), and it's when those running Win 7 change that it'll be interesting to see what they change to.

The door seems wide open for someone new to bring an operating system that doesn't mine your data - I agree that Linux is niche - it's not as simple as it could be. In the mean time, if you have to go win10, investigate turning everything off if you value data privacy.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2018, 10:34:00 AM
Personally I still disagree.

W10 now has wider usage than W7 (here (http://gs.statcounter.com/os-version-market-share/windows/desktop/worldwide), 47.21% on W10 versus 39.44% on W7. You need to factor in what proportion of those W7 users are enterprise users who have no say in their OS too. We're on W7 here, with plans to move to W10 in due course. I personally changed my personal computers to W10.

The graph in that link clearly shows that people are moving from W7 to W10, the two are a near perfect mirror image. Again, the market share of the other OSs is minescule. Data mining is valuable, the dominant market share of Windows suggests that most people don't really care about it either frankly (I'll be honest, I'm not too worried by it), so I'm not sure there is a "wide open" opportunity for another OS that doesn't harvest that valuable data. You're still talking about appealing to a tiny sub-section of the market, and there's Linux for them.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: red_death on June 04, 2018, 11:22:06 AM
I resisted changing from W7 to W10 for as long as I could as I really like W7 but a new laptop came with W10 and I've been pleasantly surprised.

Cheers M
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2018, 11:26:04 AM
Windows 10 with the service packs is now very good.  Was a bit hairy early on.  Unfortunately not all BIOSs will run it so I use both.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2018, 11:43:15 AM
I had a laptop on W8 and was very quick to update that to W10! I held out longer on the desktop with W7, but like Mike have found 10 very good. With SSDs in both they boot in under 5 seconds and have proved very stable.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Dr Al on June 04, 2018, 01:10:23 PM
Quote from: njee20 on June 04, 2018, 10:34:00 AM
Data mining is valuable, the dominant market share of Windows suggests that most people don't really care about it either frankly (I'll be honest, I'm not too worried by it)

This is what they rely on - a lack of knowledge amongst the general user base - what surprises me that folk who do have some idea actually trust them so casually with this data! But like the boiling frog, if it's gently and quietly done, folk don't notice. Personally, I object to this (mainly on principle) - Cortana apart, there's no need for it for the OS to function. Plus you end up using your own bandwith (however little of it), which you're paying for, to send this data. Personally I feel this is my data, and I therefore want complete control of it, and on principle if anyone makes money on it, it should be me; not a corporation who has bordered on being disingenuous with what they are doing with it.

I'm maybe different from most, as I don't swim with the tide on these things, so will be sticking with Windows 7 for the foreseeable future until it either ceases to perform the functions I require, or becomes demonstrably insecure. I did the same with XP and was running it until about 6 years ago, no trouble - the need to update PCs these days is far less frequent than it used to be, so my 6 year old machine is still specced higher than many new machines today - I therefore see the most likely need to update as a physical hardware failure rather than software dictating it.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2018, 01:16:33 PM
I have found a great way to wind up online marketers.  i have started to fill in email requests as GDPR@.............
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: REGP on June 05, 2018, 07:54:13 PM

Unlike some unlucky others members of the Foruma number of the updates I tried to down load to Windows 10 failed and I have  the atttached message in Settings, Windows Update.

Updates going back to April headed 2018-02,-03, 2018-03 & 2018-05 have also failed.

I've tried temporally disabling McAfee Firewall & Internet Security and Restarting the Laptop without any success.

My Aspire laptop is still working do I need worry about downloading these?
Any advice appreciated.

Ray
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: Malc on June 05, 2018, 09:10:28 PM
In the past, some updates wouldn't install on my PC. I made a note of the numbers and downloaded them from the Microsoft website as msi files. Then did a stand-alone install. Worked a treat.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: BobB on June 07, 2018, 06:02:56 PM
With all due respect to you "njee20", based upon the many Windows 10 users I interact with down here in South Africa; we are fed up with Microsoft messing up our machines, fed up with them changing our settings and fed up with the trying to make us criminals (for South African law) by not allowing us to keep data confidential.

I agree that the current availability of alternative operating systems make it appear that Microsoft is in an unassailable position but they may be the next company to fade out of existence because they don't care what there customers think.
Title: Re: Windows 10 latest update.
Post by: njee20 on June 08, 2018, 08:31:55 AM
Shall be interesting to see "Bob". One wonders why no one has challenged them in decades...