I see in the latest Hattons flier that Peco are ressurecting TT gauge. I'm not sure of why! ???
It seems to be a pretty radical gamble which I honestly can't see paying off. Sorry for the negativity.
for TT gauge track wise maybe a good move as peco are well known for track systems so another string in the bow for them , in N GAUGE a few more options wouldnt go amiss tbh , concrete points and longer express points would be nice , who knows
How many folk model 3mm scale these days?
I reckon they'd be sparse! I may be wrong... does the 3mm society still exist?
There's no stock, unless you build it yourself!
Quote from: nobby on June 07, 2022, 05:28:36 AM
for TT gauge track wise maybe a good move as peco are well known for track systems so another string in the bow for them , in N GAUGE a few more options wouldnt go amiss tbh , concrete points and longer express points would be nice , who knows
Hi @nobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=750)
Agreed on N Gauge track. I also think it would be good if PECO released a code 55 Setrack with revised geometry so you can avoid 1st radius. Alternatively, add a second radius point to the existing code 80 Setrack (and associated pieces).
As for TT, if the models (when they arrive) look as good as the few locos CORGI released then it could be tempting. As my eyes get older, N Gauge becomes harder to see...
:goggleeyes:
Kind regards
Paddy
@Bealman (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=255)
You were beaten to it, George :P
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=57047.msg763436#msg763436 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=57047.msg763436#msg763436)
Regarding Peco's entry into the TT market, it's a common misconception in the UK and related countries that TT is a scale of 3mm:1foot, i.e. 1:100. In fact TT scale is 1/10inch:1 foot (2.5mm:1foot), i.e.1:120 and track gauge of 12mm, and has been so since its first development in the USA around 1950.
The discrepancy arose because when Tri-ang first developed what they erroneously called TT in the late 1950s they were unable to cram the mechanisms they were able to produce into body shells of UK prototype locomotives scaled at 1:120, and so they increased the scale from 1:120 to 1:100 but kept the same track gauge of 12mm.
In this respect Tri-ang went down a similar path to Hornby in 1938 with Hornby-Dublo (1:76 scale models on 1:87 scale 16.5mm gauge track), a path also followed Peco in the late 1960s when they launched their British N gauge body kits and wagons (1:148 scale models on 1:160 scale 9mm gauge track).
Although the following of 3mm scale is both distinctly British and small in number, interest in TT is large (and growing) in central and eastern Europe, and Peco's introduction of proper TT scale track can be viewed as a move to enter that important market. Their parallel launch of a single British wagon and some GWR building kits can be seen as an inexpensive testing of the water of a possible future UK market (laser-cut building kits are very cheap to produce, and Peco's recent purchase of advanced robotic production machinery has probably enabled them to produce the tooling for TT wagons from the CAD produced for their new range of N gauge wagons much more quickly and cheaply than could be done by earlier methods).
Hope the above from a former member of the 3mm Society clears up any confusion.
Anyway, back to N gauge...
Best wishes,
Tfc49
Ah well. I live in Australia, remember. ;)
this thread continues here:
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=57048.msg763342;topicseen#new (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=57048.msg763342;topicseen#new)
Got a message from Hattons informing me that Gaugemaster have launched a range of TT scenic accessories/figurines.
Will Farish announce some rolling stock ?
I doubt it, they struggle to get in the production queue as it is.
Cheers Colin
Looking at said items on Gaugemaster's website, they appear to be re-badged existing products from Noch and Viessmann, both of which are established suppliers of TT scenic parts.
Whilst hopefully not dragging this forum into another scale, I wonder if any people are now giving thought to using TT in the foreground of a layout with N in the background, to create forced perspective (doubtless already tried in Europe, but not perhaps in the UK)?
Best wishes,
Tfc49
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 09, 2022, 08:09:38 AM
Will Farish announce some rolling stock ?
Really hope not, they are painfully slow to release stuff now, add in another gauge and we'll be waiting forever for new releases.
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 09, 2022, 08:09:38 AM
Will Farish announce some rolling stock ?
I doubt it would be under the Farish brand as that's associated with British N (yes I know GF originally did OO to back in the 50s -70s)
I don't think the Bachmann empire has a foothold in TT with any of its brands (but I may be wrong). Even to produce rolling stock you've also got to tool up or source wheels, standard couplings etc. So it's a big investment.
If Bachmann UK wanted to enter this market, they have the EFE brand which they could use...
Kind regards
Paddy
While I do see the attraction of TT, given the supply problems with China, which are likely to be long term, I would have liked to have seen Peco focus on further developing the quality and range of their N gauge range of products.
I don't see this being a massive risk to Peco as they are well established as a manufacturer of track and there is a European market for 12mm gauge track. They have a good foothold as a supplier of track in Europe so this will just be another line to sell to established modellers there. No more limited market than some or the larger narrow gauge track they already offer. Peco are a very careful and cautious organisation and not known to rush into new products. The buildings and accessories offered will see if there is an appetite for British TT:120 and unlikely to have been much of a costly investment. There may be a limited UK market with modellers able to use 3D printed items and loco bodies on European chassis. We as n gauge modellers are having to turn to 3D printed items such as road vehicles due to lack of supply, therefore this flexibility may also help those who choose TT:120
'Gaugemaster' have put out an email to the effect that they are releasing some TT figures and accessories. Also, they are thinking of a Class 66 and asking what liveries people want.
"TT Scale returns with announcements from Gaugemaster and Peco. We are bringing to market a range of Scenics, Figures, and Accessories which compliments Peco's announcement that they are releasing buildings and track in this scale too."
"It is also our intention to release a Class 66 in this scale, subject to demand. What liveries would you want to see? What else would you like to furnish your layout with?
I'm a member of a Table Top group on facebook and believe me it has a strong following. It is a gauge that is crying out for investment and up to date rolling stock to be produced for it. So I can see why the main manufacturers are showing interest as they have bashed the hell out of everything else and struggling to find any viable rolling stock to produce in N or OO.
Currently TT modelers are either refining the RTR models they have or buying kits that TBH are pretty rough and need a lot of work to make them fit donor chassis and modeled not to have a 'toyish' look about them.
Then there's the older generation who's eyesight begins to struggle with N Gauge and reluctantly jump to OO, to discover there is a massive physical size between the two gauges. Where as TT or 3mm is a gauge I feel slots neatly between the two, its not too small or too big!
As for Peco they have their own in house resources to make the tooling for track no matter what gauge, so their outlay with their experience isn't going to break the bank. And lets face it they are world leaders for producing track no mater what gauge!
I feel a little aggrieved that I have missed the boat, because If I was 10- 15 years younger I would be seriously looking to produce products for this gauge as I firmly believe it will be reborn!
South African enthusiasts will be pleased to see this track. 12mm scale track is just right for HO scale South African Cape gauge at 3'6"
@Brian-1c (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9720) Peco already make HOm 12mm track to represent narrow gauge.
Quote from: dannyboy on June 09, 2022, 08:07:24 PM
'Gaugemaster' have put out an email to the effect that they are releasing some TT figures and accessories. Also, they are thinking of a Class 66 and asking what liveries people want.
Just as PECO are able to use components already in existence, I assume Gaugemaster are working on (at least partly) repackaging stuff that already exists for European TT, as they do with trees, roadways etc where 'Gaugemaster' branded items are actually imported from the European model manufacturers and rebagged and relabelled.
and the imagination goes into overdrive when you then realise that GWR broad gauge comes out at damn near 18mm gauge (technically 17.84mm) making all those lovely wheels and chassis etc which are available for 18mm gauge for EM useable.
I mean, think of a Bristol and Exeter railway 9' driver loco.. thats a standard 23mm driver from Romford on EM axles :)
Additionally 3'6" gauge would be 9mm gauge, again lots of ready to use stuff :) thinking tramways in Exeter or Torquay amongst other things using the tomy inlaid tramway track on cobbles. Exeter tramway was around during the last few years of the Broad Gauge even if horse drawn.
Finally, 2'6" narrow gauge is z gauge track. Possibilities, possibilities :) Welshpool and Llanfair feeder, also proposed in Broad gauge days even if a little out of area and technically not actually running till just after broad gauge days.
hmmmmmmm I know it would probably get me banned from here, but the thought is very tempting, especially with a new 3d resin printer waiting to be used :)
Graham
Quote from: Gordon on June 09, 2022, 11:34:45 PM
imported from the European model manufacturers and rebagged and relabelled.
and, quite often, repriced ;)
So are we going to end up with track and trains that are to one scale size or are we again to have to put up with narrow gauge track to fit the mechanism into locomotives ?
Quote from: BobB on June 10, 2022, 07:52:01 AM
So are we going to end up with track and trains that are to one scale size or are we again to have to put up with narrow gauge track to fit the mechanism into locomotives ?
No - as stated a number of times in this (and the other open thread), this is an introduction of
UK Outline models to the
European 1:120 scale, instead of the traditional UK 1:100 'TT' scale.
At this scale the precise equivalent of Standard Gauge track would be 12.175mm so 12mm is correct to the nearest half-mm...
Quote from: willike1958 on June 09, 2022, 04:29:45 PM
While I do see the attraction of TT, given the supply problems with China, which are likely to be long term, I would have liked to have seen Peco focus on further developing the quality and range of their N gauge range of products.
Peco make all their products in Devon - supply problems with China will only have an impact on any raw materials that Peco source there. They've also recently invested heavily in new machines for making track and so it makes sense for them to exploit them. I'm sure some would rather they expanded their N Gauge ranges but it's nice to see new products being developed for the export market in mind.
Don't forget that Peco have just released a completely new wagon in N - I think the last was the HAA about 15-20 years ago!
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on June 10, 2022, 08:50:22 AM
Quote from: willike1958 on June 09, 2022, 04:29:45 PM
While I do see the attraction of TT, given the supply problems with China, which are likely to be long term, I would have liked to have seen Peco focus on further developing the quality and range of their N gauge range of products.
Peco make all their products in Devon - supply problems with China will only have an impact on any raw materials that Peco source there. They've also recently invested heavily in new machines for making track and so it makes sense for them to exploit them. I'm sure some would rather they expanded their N Gauge ranges but it's nice to see new products being developed for the export market in mind.
Don't forget that Peco have just released a completely new wagon in N - I think the last was the HAA about 15-20 years ago!
Steven B.
They have also just released code 100 concrete sleepered flexi track with pandrol clips in OO I believe.
Graham
TT may have entustiasts on the continent and even elsewhere, but unless a reasonable rtr range is released by someone, I can't see it working in the UK.
Sorry! Speculation of course, but I too followed the Triang story and it's demise as a kid.
However....
Quote from: Steven B on June 10, 2022, 08:50:22 AM
Quote from: willike1958 on June 09, 2022, 04:29:45 PM
While I do see the attraction of TT, given the supply problems with China, which are likely to be long term, I would have liked to have seen Peco focus on further developing the quality and range of their N gauge range of products.
Peco make all their products in Devon - supply problems with China will only have an impact on any raw materials that Peco source there. They've also recently invested heavily in new machines for making track and so it makes sense for them to exploit them. I'm sure some would rather they expanded their N Gauge ranges but it's nice to see new products being developed for the export market in mind.
Don't forget that Peco have just released a completely new wagon in N - I think the last was the HAA about 15-20 years ago!
Steven B.
That's exactly what I mean. Peco could maybe gain an edge on Bachmann Farish in terms of bringing n gauge stuff to market more quickly and reliably through their UK-based production capacity. In this context I feel that TT is a bit of a distraction. I say this as someone who is the happy owner of 60 Peco HAAs !
I think it will do quite well to be honest.
They have been very clear that they are using finer standards (as can be seen from the blade and checkrail clearances on the track) and it's a pretty solid scale 1/10th inch to a foot using code 55 rail as per N-gauge finescale track. To me, it alo looks like the sleeper spacing is UK based as well.
They have a range of buildings that they have done in laser cut using some of their new machinery, which is really a limited investment, and it's been introduced on the cusp of the next great technical advance of 3d printing which can allow people to do so much more with just a scale change on their drawings. I wouldn't be surprised to see Peco hosting a 3d model library for this new scale or something similar to help it progress. Who knows if they could evn become a UK shapeways specifically for model railways.
The extra space inside the locos should make it much easier to fit with DCC , sound and stayalive.. I mean if you can get this into N.. then the new TT:120 should be no issue.
I think they have played a bit of a blinder really and started something that can become a modellers scale (not that N isn't.. don't get m wrong, but just that little bit bigger for those of us old farts who are starting to have visibility problems). If you look at the number of people who model in 2mm finescale, or P4, then there is a market for the models having the right size track under them and this may just be something that flies... at least I applaud their experimentation.
There are hundreds of scenery buildings available by using things like scalescenes and either scaling the N gauge up or the OO down.
Reading the Modeller, they have obviously been planning this for a while and I think we will see thing take off pretty fast.. after all, one of the plans of the month relies on the short radius points which aren't even out yet. I also suspect that some ready to run stock (locos etc) will be announced in the next couple of months at the latest.
It's also a standard scale for plastic kits and a scale that Corgi uses as well. There are also many models on shapeways already for 1:120 scale.
I'm keen to see what happens in the next few months and may well start collecting a bit of stock for the future.
Graham
So the new Peco TT track is code 55 but is it the "double-T" embedded rail of the N system or a simple Flat-bottom rail?
I'm not sure what the code of the old Triang TT3 track was, my sets with the Series B track are all in a cabinet I can't get to at the moment!
I've just dug out my BerlinerBahn TT 1:120 start set, and the track for that uses code 80 rail. An ancient Triang TT3 Castle class loco and wagons seem to sit and run on the plain track ok, and indeed the flanges aren't as deep as I thought they were. The flanges seem ok on N code 55 plain track too, no sign of any bumping along the sleeper tops. I don't have any TT pointwork to test back-to-back requirements.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on June 10, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
So the new Peco TT track is code 55 but is it the "double-T" embedded rail of the N system or a simple Flat-bottom rail?
I'm not sure what the code of the old Triang TT3 track was, my sets with the Series B track are all in a cabinet I can't get to at the moment!
I've just dug out my BerlinerBahn TT 1:120 start set, and the track for that uses code 80 rail. An ancient Triang TT3 Castle class loco and wagons seem to sit and run on the plain track ok, and indeed the flanges aren't as deep as I thought they were. The flanges seem ok on N code 55 plain track too, no sign of any bumping along the sleeper tops. I don't have any TT pointwork to test back-to-back requirements.
It states in the video it's insert moulded and constructed the same as the N gauge track and looks like embedded same as N-gauge finescale, so no chairs to bump along inside the rail... I assume this also means the same rail joiners etc as N-gauge.
Triang TT3 track was code 100 I believe.
Graham
Bit too late for me now to change. I used to have a TT layout in the 70's, it was in a space behind the wall in the upstairs bedroom in a dormer bungalow I owned with the wife at the time. That was my first marriage and unfortunately did not last very long. I ended up moving out and went back living with my parents, the house was eventually sold so somebody got my layout that I was building at the time, I got most of my belongings but that was forgotten about, wonder if it's still there ?, I doubt it lol.
Hello Chums
I have just returned from a holiday. I bought a copy of Railway Modeller in Oswestry as I couldn't wait to return home to read my subscription copy.
I was thrilled and delighted to read about 'TT-120'. I really like 'TT' gauge and this is a wonderful development. Apart from the 12mm track gauge, it looks like it will have nothing in common with Tri-ang 'TT3'.
With a range of track, accessories and rolling stock, Peco are doing this properly. The magazine has a few teases about a locomotive, including reproducing drawings of a GWR '2251' 'Collett Goods' 0-6-0 in 1:120 scale. Peco made a very fine British 'N' gauge model of this engine about 15 years ago. My guess is Peco knows of a suitable locomotive already in development.
But by whom? Hornby's Arnold company produces some 'TT' items, so that might be an option.
Alternatively, at the Porthmadoc station shop, I looked at a couple of gorgeous Peco/Kato Ffestiniog Railway locomotives in '009' scale. This makes me wonder...
Anyway, what splendid news and, after seeing @joe cassidy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1484) 's comment on @Nbodger (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8543) wonderful Hillsden layout thread, I was delighted to see a thread devoted to the topic.
With all good wishes.
John
Quote from: ntpntpntp on June 10, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
So the new Peco TT track is code 55 but is it the "double-T" embedded rail of the N system or a simple Flat-bottom rail?
It's the same code 55 rail as used in N finescale track, so PECO has already judiciously used items already used in other PECO products so has already economised on resources on this project
https://peco-uk.com/collections/track/products/c55-turnout-medium-radius-right-hand-unifrog
Perhaps this thread should be labelled 'Peco TT scale' rather than 'Peco TT gauge'. I gather that Peco is planning to match the track gauge to the scale (1:120) of the rolling stock unlike N or OO gauge which have bodies that are over scale by 8% and 13% respectively referenced to their track gauges. Also, the suggested rail code of 55 for Peco TT would be a closer match to scaled real rail height than what code 55 is for N scale (or gauge).
N scale suits me just fine considering the space I have for a layout.
Webbo
If nothing else, this announcement is giving the pedants huge amounts of ammunition! ;D
Just got a message from Hattons about a TT scale/gauge class 31.
Price £169.
You could get 2 shrubberies for that ?
Quote from: Bealman on June 07, 2022, 07:38:47 AM
How many folk model 3mm scale these days?
I reckon they'd be sparse! I may be wrong... does the 3mm society still exist?
There's no stock, unless you build it yourself!
Yes, they're still around (https://sites.google.com/site/3mmpublic/products), but that's 1/100 - Peco are launching a UK 1/120 range...
Mike
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 14, 2022, 12:09:56 PMYou could get 2 shrubberies for that ?
??? ???
£169 is less than 10% over the current RRP of a Farish 31, so probably about right for a larger item in a more limited market...
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 14, 2022, 12:09:56 PM
Just got a message from Hattons about a TT scale/gauge class 31.
Got a link? Is this a new model or the old Triang TT3 model? £169 would be ridiculous for the old model, although the blue livery ones are very rare and command a higher price I believe.
[edit] Ah, Heljian proposing a new model. Not due until Oct 2023 so don't hold your breath :) Also an 08 by the look of it.
https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000399/1000618/1000635/0/heljan_tt_gauge_1_120_scale_diesel_locos/prodlist (https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000399/1000618/1000635/0/heljan_tt_gauge_1_120_scale_diesel_locos/prodlist)
One presumes that some mk1 coaches or something will follow too.
I had a very quick look through the continental stuff to see what was out there for a 66 to pull (re: Gaugemaster's proposal) and it's frustratingly little; couldn't find any silver bullets, Megafrets or Cargowaggons that operate on the continent.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on June 14, 2022, 01:53:13 PM
[edit] Ah, Heljian proposing a new model. Not due until Oct 2023 so don't hold your breath :) Also an 08 by the look of it.
Thank you for this. I had a look at Heljan's website where there is some information on the Brush 'Type 2'.
It also mentions the 350hp shunter and a Hunslet 'Austerity' 0-6-0ST as having been identified as possible future projects.
https://www.heljan.co.uk/post/no-compromises-british-outline-1-120-tt-is-here (https://www.heljan.co.uk/post/no-compromises-british-outline-1-120-tt-is-here)
All very interesting.
Best wishes
John
Heljian Doh I must remember to spell this firm's name correctly. Heljan
force of habit to write ...jian due to my use of Zildjian cymbals in my other hobby :D
i just had a look and tt seems like a reasonable choice for german or czech layouts but not much rtr from other countries...
admittedly i just looked at in stock diesel locos...
it is a nice scale imo but going to take a decade or more for a wide variety of rtr british outline to be made... but anyway good luck to heljan and peco...
FWIW, already having some 2mm and 3mm designs to hand, I've rescaled a handful of popular models to see what happens....
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/maridunian-models?section=TT:120+Scale (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/maridunian-models?section=TT:120+Scale)
Mike
Hello Chums
I've had a notification from the lovely people at Harburn Hobbies to advise that the first Peco 'TT:120' models are now in stock. That didn't take long!
With best wishes.
John
Quote from: Train Waiting on July 15, 2022, 04:27:46 PM
Hello Chums
I've had a notification from the lovely people at Harburn Hobbies to advise that the first Peco 'TT:120' models are now in stock. That didn't take long!
With best wishes.
John
Yes, indeed:
https://www.harburnhobbies.co.uk/acatalog/TT-120-p1.html (https://www.harburnhobbies.co.uk/acatalog/TT-120-p1.html)
Slightly off-topic (ie not PECO), I've put together a lot list of UK outline/plausible visitor rolling stock designs available from Shapeways in TT:120 scale - it's up to 52 items to date.
https://www.shapeways.com/designer/maridunian/lists/uk-tt120?sort=name (https://www.shapeways.com/designer/maridunian/lists/uk-tt120?sort=name)
I'm finding the experience of being in at the beginning once again (cf N Gauge in the 70s/80s) when you couldnt buy almost anything RTR and had to mostly make or adapt, quite exciting!
Mike
Yes, when looked at from that angle, it is! :thumbsup:
I thought I'd share a photo of a completed TT:120 3d printed wagon I designed.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/125/2947-060922103835.jpeg)
With no other points of reference, it's hard to tell its scale!
Here are some modified Peco 14t tank kits I built years ago (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34241.msg397284#msg397284):
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/42/2947-120816131934.jpeg)
It's surprising how much bigger the model feels than N Gauge when it's just 1/4 bigger in each direction. This does mean that working with small wagons is much easier.
Can't offer a side-by-side currently I'm afraid - N Gauge stuff still packed up after a house move in April!
Mike
I've taken the liberty of expanding the scope of this thread
@Bealman (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=255)
That's exquisite, Mike! Well done.
Quote from: njee20 on September 06, 2022, 10:42:40 PM
That's exquisite, Mike! Well done.
Thanks very much Nick. I'm very pleased with this one. The easier-to-handle size made cleaning up the print more straightforward. I managed to dislodge one or two rivets in the process but hey, who's counting?
Mike
Not me! Magic. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: