Novice not ashamed to need help!

grampy · February 19, 2019, 11:26:37 AM

Hi

I'm returning to railway modelling after a 30 year break and hoping to inspire my new grandson as well as have fun being creative. But I'm really struggling here. I have chosen N gauge to get what I want into the space available, but I fear I have overcomplicated things in terms of wiring. I need help!

My layout consists of two ovals of track, with a crossover and two sidings (a diagram is added to this post, with each point lettered for reference), and a fiddle yard where I have a third siding capable of accessing either of the two ovals. All nine points are electrofrog. Trouble is I can't get it to work.

Can someone please tell me where I should put the IRJs and where power feeds are needed to make this work? I am so far out of my comfort zone I feel like ripping up the electrofrogs and buying insulfrogs instead - but I know I'll pay a price in smooth running (and it feels wasteful and defeatist)!

grampy · February 19, 2019, 11:30:44 AM

Sorry - should have added that I'm running DC.

MarshLane · February 19, 2019, 12:06:53 PM

Welcome back to the hobby!

I've not been back too long either. The big question is how are you going to control the layout, as today there are two options, DC or DCC. In terms of simplicity, DC may be the best and the same as you use to have. In this case, you need to put the insulated rail joiners between the tracks, so between any crossovers etc. However, in terms of fun an enjoyment, DCC may be the way forward, especially as you can have sound and user controlled working lights which may provide an added interest for your grandson.

Going for a very BASIC explanation, the whole layout is controlled from a DCC command station (controller) and sends to commands to digital chips that are located in the locos. Some locos can be purchased with chips installed by the manufacturer, or you can add them to normal DC powered locos. The downside is that is it more expensive! So the final decision could depend on a number of factors.

I suspect from the way your original post is worded that your going to be looking at the old style, DC control, and there's nothing wrong with that! You can always upgrade to DCC at a later date if you want to. If your using electrofrog points, then remember that both exits from the points are live at all times, so one course of action (no doubt others will be along with other options) would be to put IRJs on each rail at the exit from a point, then run a separate power feed from a switch panel to each section of track, ie A-B A-C, C-B, E to bufferstops etc.. That will give you maximum flexibility and allow you to isolate (switch off) any section where your standing a locomotive. If you run the power feeds from a DPDT (double pole, double throw) switch it would also allow you to power each section of track from one of two controllers, meaning you could have one train on one circuit and one train on the other?

Hope that helps
Rich

Edit: Sorry missed the follow up post about running DC!

Newportnobby · February 19, 2019, 03:08:41 PM

I'm not the best to ask about electrickery as I consider it a black art and the Devil's work, but firstly I would say if you intend to run UK stuff we drive on the left so the outer oval travels clockwise. Check to see if your points are where you want them to be. Secondly, if you tell me what track you're using (Peco code 55 or 80??) I'll put your plan into a suitable piece of software and post it here for you. Do you intend to use more than one controller/what do you have please?

grampy · February 19, 2019, 03:37:23 PM

Thanks Newport. Yes, the layout is set up to run in UK configuration, so the outer oval is clockwise. The double siding is intended to be a two-platform bay in a four-platform station so the points on that side give access to the two bay platforms for both directions of travel on the ovals. I'm open to suggestions for change if you advise this.

I'm using code 55 and the points are small radius (space is a serious constraint for me). I have a double controller (Morley Vesta), but I also have a spare cheapo Hornby controller that could be deployed (say, to manage the fiddle yard siding and access routes).

njee20 · February 19, 2019, 03:37:41 PM

The way I read it you've already built the layout and it's not working?

What's not happening? Have you got a short somewhere? Or dead spots?

I'm DCC, so not sure I can help overly. Brian Lambert's guide here is very good though.

grampy · February 19, 2019, 03:38:20 PM

Thanks Rich, not least for the prompt response!

grampy · February 19, 2019, 03:41:33 PM

The layout is built but can be unbuilt - no ballasting yet, I want to get it wired and working first to reduce the possible impact of any changes I need to make. I tried to follow the Lambert guidance but I've clearly gone wrong somewhere, I have a loop line that is dead and I'm not at all clear how to get power to, and insulate, the fiddle yard or the crossover and sidings.

port perran · February 19, 2019, 04:26:00 PM

So are both outer and inner main lines working ok and are they powered by the seperate parts of the twin controllers ?
Is it the loop with point C in it or the one with point D in it that's not working?
If so, does the other work ok?
Electrickery is definitely not my forte but plenty on here are experts. I'm just trying to clarify where you are at.

grampy · February 19, 2019, 04:39:21 PM

Hi Perran, it's the one with point C.

chrism · February 19, 2019, 04:53:10 PM

Quote from: grampy on February 19, 2019, 04:39:21 PM
Hi Perran, it's the one with point C.

Disclaimer - I'm no expert on wiring ands am still somewhat staggered that my layout worked first time, I would have expected short all over the place with all the points on it.

If both points A and B are set for the loop does it work? It "should" do, as that's how my fiddle yard sidings are powered and work. If only one of the points at either end is set, then a short is likely.

Since the siding off points C & D, via E, could be used by either loop line, I'd suggest you isolate it completely, between C & E and D & E and feed power at the toe of point E via a DPDT switch to select which power source feeds that siding. Power should generally never be fed to the heel of a point, only the toe.

I think that you also need insulators on both rails between points F & G.

Newportnobby · February 19, 2019, 05:08:03 PM

@grampy
Here's your layout with the points designated as per your diagram.............

Not wanting to teach you to suck eggs but if you right click on the diagram and click 'Save Image As' you can save it to your computer.
I had to fudge some of the joins as the geometry of the small code 55 points is 10 degree divergence and the 'Y' point is 5 degree divergence.

grampy · February 19, 2019, 05:40:32 PM

Many thanks Newport, that is a big improvement. How should I interpret the colours of the symbols please?

John Stone · February 19, 2019, 07:29:28 PM

NPN - you've just solved a dilemma with that track plan.

Philip. · February 19, 2019, 08:08:30 PM

Quote from: grampy on February 19, 2019, 05:40:32 PM
Many thanks Newport, that is a big improvement. How should I interpret the colours of the symbols please?

If you mean the red and grey arrowheads, don't worry, they just signify the end points of track, when the track in the software join correctly they disappear. As Newportnobby explained he had to fudge some of the joins to make it fit.