Hatton's Beyer-Garratt

Started by N_GaugeModeller, November 16, 2019, 11:09:00 PM

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Steven B

Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 02:25:06 PM
This is fair but possibly not analogous. The UMs do not have complex valve gear, have very slack tolerances in the tender drive, and very low detail as compared other manufacturers. If Hattons went that route they'd be slammed for a crude model with traction tyres, so they couldn't win - it's tyres that make the UM models - early ones (circa 1996) had no tyres and equivalently little haulage capacity.

So a Union Mills loco with a super detailed body wouldn't haul as much as an out of the box one?

What's so wrong with traction tyres? Plenty of Continental models use them yet you hear very few complaints about them.

Steven B.

Steven B

Quote from: railsquid on December 10, 2019, 02:43:42 PM
Quote from: Steven B on December 10, 2019, 01:58:35 PM
A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?

In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?

Because there are plenty of other models that are more "needed"; I'm sure the King will be done by Dapol or Farish within the next few years (unless the KR-Models one appers). There are multiple examples listed in this thread.

Had Farish's Deltic/DP1 been done as a crowd funded model I'd guess it would have sold fewer models than it did as a production model (1000 as loco and another 1000 in a train set).

I'm not sure what Hattons are trying to be. Are they aiming to replicate Farish, Hornby and Dapol by re-releasing models as and when stocks run out and demand is there, or are they looking at taking a more short term approach more like current Crowd Funding models - buy it now as we may never make it again.

Steven B.

Dr Al

Quote from: Steven B on December 11, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
So a Union Mills loco with a super detailed body wouldn't haul as much as an out of the box one?

Of course it would. But that's not the point - mainstream manufacturers don't use solid cast metal bodies these days, so the likelihood of Hattons doing so is low - it'll be the normal injection moulded plastic body to get the detail the market dictates. As such UM models are a very different beast.

I don't see the big deal with having dual motors - careful design should allow those two power units to use identical components to keep costs realistic. This, with a heavy boiler weight, and tanks weighted, could give strong performance retaining detail and avoiding tyres.

Quote from: Steven B on December 11, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
What's so wrong with traction tyres? Plenty of Continental models use them yet you hear very few complaints about them.

It's definitely a means to an end, and a possible solution. There's plenty of complaints at some levels about them coming off, stretching etc from what I've seen on Dapol//Farish that have them, so it's debatable. I know I've had to change tens and tens of loco tyres for people where they've degraded - some due to users of course (oil!!!!). On the flip side, I've never had any trouble with them on my own stock.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."Dr. Carl Sagan

Thorpe Parva

Just received a delivery from Hattons, excellent service as I only placed the order yesterday. In the box was a copy of the current (Christmas) Product Catalog. Plenty of info regarding forthcoming products but I couldn't find any reference to the Garratt (apologies to Hattons if I missed it). Disappointing as it looks like they have given up on it.

GAD

Dr Al.

I own several Minitrix, Fleischmann and Arnold steam locos. All of those with traction tyres work perfectly and with some over 30 yrs old, they are durable in service. I bought a Dapol Brittania which cast off a tyre in a couple of inches, it went back and the replacement arrived with one tyre completel off the rim.. I got a refund.

The problem is not in traction tyres per se. It is in poor quality control. Something that seems to affect Dapol, and to a lesser amount Graham Farish, when it comes to steam locos.


Dr Al

Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:22:48 PM
Dr Al.

I own several Minitrix, Fleischmann and Arnold steam locos. All of those with traction tyres work perfectly and with some over 30 yrs old, they are durable in service. I bought a Dapol Brittania which cast off a tyre in a couple of inches, it went back and the replacement arrived with one tyre completel off the rim.. I got a refund.

The problem is not in traction tyres per se. It is in poor quality control. Something that seems to affect Dapol, and to a lesser amount Graham Farish, when it comes to steam locos.

I think this becomes very subjective and down to personal experience.

I've had no personal trouble with modern models I've bought, but have seen countless that others have had trouble with.

Old Minitrix, I've found almost always need replaced as they are always life expired, soiled, or solidified.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."Dr. Carl Sagan

Snowwolflair

Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:22:48 PM
Dr Al.

I own several Minitrix, Fleischmann and Arnold steam locos. All of those with traction tyres work perfectly and with some over 30 yrs old, they are durable in service. I bought a Dapol Brittania which cast off a tyre in a couple of inches, it went back and the replacement arrived with one tyre completel off the rim.. I got a refund.

The problem is not in traction tyres per se. It is in poor quality control. Something that seems to affect Dapol, and to a lesser amount Graham Farish, when it comes to steam locos.

Frankly it's a problem of poor materials being used by modern manufacturers.  Trix, Minitrix and Arnold traction types were made of a tough plastic material that was and remains resistant to oil.   Modern China types are a rubber type compound that swells when exposed to oil and I believe humidity as well.  It simply changes shape and it seems to be a one way change.

If you take care and avoid oil spills and DONT push your models along the track modern traction tires will last, but are very fragile.

GAD

Sorry but modern Fleischmann and Arnold tyres are every bit as good as their earlier offerings. I have had a couple of locos that needed replacement tyres due to the original ones hardening and so losing grip. Maybe it's coincidence but they were Minitrix 9Fs.
However, with over 250 locos in my fleet, all of which see service over the course of every couple of years, the only returns I've had for loose traction tyres have been Dapol. I've also returned three Dapol 9Fs and three Dapol Granges due to poor running, with the locos surging, then slowing repeatedly. This after long running in as per Dapol's instructions.
As an aside I took delivery last week of a Kato C59 Pacific steam locomotive. Competitively priced with respect to UK steamers, it runs like a sewing machine straight from the box. It will pull huge amounts of stock and has an effective brass flywheel. Oh that we could get similar quality in UK outline steam.

Dr Al

#128
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:42:07 PM
I have had a couple of locos that needed replacement tyres due to the original ones hardening and so losing grip. Maybe it's coincidence but they were Minitrix 9Fs.

The absolute newest UK outline Minitrix out there is of the order 30 odd years old (late 80s/early 90s it stopped), so generally the tyres are aged at best nowadays, or completely shot at worst. Some of the early Minitrix from the late 1960s and early 1970s stuff is of course 40-50 years old!

The last few 9Fs I've seen have needed new tyres, as have the last dozen or more Ivatts.

Small supplies of spares can still be obtained, but not sure what they are made of.

Surging on Dapol models means the motor commutator needs cleaned.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."Dr. Carl Sagan

GAD

Quote from: Dr Al on December 11, 2019, 01:46:40 PM
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:42:07 PM
I have had a couple of locos that needed replacement tyres due to the original ones hardening and so losing grip. Maybe it's coincidence but they were Minitrix 9Fs.

The absolute newest UK outline Minitrix out there is of the order 30 odd years old (late 80s/early 90s it stopped), so generally the tyres are aged at best nowadays, or completely shot at worst. Some of the early Minitrix from the late 1960s and early 1970s stuff is of course 40-50 years old!

The last few 9Fs I've seen have needed new tyres, as have the last dozen or more Ivatts.

Small supplies of spares can still be obtained, but not sure what they are made of.

Surging on Dapol models means the motor commutator needs cleaned.

Cheers,
Alan

Thanks for the info on surging. However brand new out of the box, and surging through 3 hours of running in following recommended lubrication,this is not acceptable. My thought was a dry motor bearing, but for brand new models, they go back if they don't work.

njee20

Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:42:07 PM
As an aside I took delivery last week of a Kato C59 Pacific steam locomotive. Competitively priced with respect to UK steamers, it runs like a sewing machine straight from the box. It will pull huge amounts of stock and has an effective brass flywheel. Oh that we could get similar quality in UK outline steam.

When Dapol and Farish are making the same volumes as Kato that may happen.

Dr Al

Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 02:08:02 PM
Thanks for the info on surging. However brand new out of the box, and surging through 3 hours of running in following recommended lubrication,this is not acceptable. My thought was a dry motor bearing, but for brand new models, they go back if they don't work.

Totally - but worth remembering in future if any model suffers that once its out of warranty.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."Dr. Carl Sagan

red_death

Quote from: Steven B on December 11, 2019, 09:55:33 AM
I'm not sure what Hattons are trying to be. Are they aiming to replicate Farish, Hornby and Dapol by re-releasing models as and when stocks run out and demand is there, or are they looking at taking a more short term approach more like current Crowd Funding models - buy it now as we may never make it again.

Is there really much difference between the two scenarios you describe other than crowdfunding requiring money upfront? A non-crowdfunding manufacturer is only going to rerun something if they believe there is demand.

I don't see that a crowdfunding company wouldn't re-run models IF there is demand and crowdfunding helps establish a level of demand.  The difficulty is that demand might have been largely satisfied in the first run.

A slight tangent to this thread anyway as Hattons aren't crowdfunding.

Cheers Mike



BramptonBranch

There's a Skytrex kit built one on flea bay starting at £240....and its not mine :no:

Also any reply about a Hasland garratt at York? My late father was a Hasland driver ( he liked them) and I recall him getting to York. would like to know more.

Andy
You can never have to many Warships!

Sotonian

Quote from: Thorpe Parva on December 11, 2019, 12:21:50 PM
Just received a delivery from Hattons, excellent service as I only placed the order yesterday. In the box was a copy of the current (Christmas) Product Catalog. Plenty of info regarding forthcoming products but I couldn't find any reference to the Garratt (apologies to Hattons if I missed it). Disappointing as it looks like they have given up on it.

It is still showing on their web site and they are still taking pre-orders, both of which suggest that no decision to cancel has been taken.

Apologies for dragging this back to topic ...

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