Hi
Anyone here with their ear close to the ground know if Hattons still expect to deliver their n-gauge beyer garratt in January 2020 as still shown on their website or is it likly to be some time before we see the beast.
Thanks
NGM
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on November 16, 2019, 11:09:00 PM
Hi
Anyone here with their ear close to the ground know if Hattons still expect to deliver their n-gauge beyer garratt in January 2020 as still shown on their website or is it likly to be some time before we see the beast.
Thanks
NGM
I put in my order when announced. They won't actually say it will be delayed beyond 2020 (I have asked the direct question on RM Web) but as it is currently only at the CAD stage, given the usual timings for such things, I think it realistic to expect it will be at least another year before it arrives.
Regards
Roy
Thanks
That's a shame SWMBO has limited me to one big purchase in 2020 and was hopping it would be the Garratt but if you are correct for it being another year it now looks like the Farish 8F will be here first as that's supposed to be here around June 2020.
NGM
Just out of interest, do you ever limit SWMBO on expenditure?
Quote from: honestjudge on November 17, 2019, 04:21:13 PM
Just out of interest, do you ever limit SWMBO on expenditure?
Blimey, you're brave! Or single.
;D
A man who defies his wife is not married long lol....
A man who defies his wife, risks making a widow of her! :dighole:
Quote from: BramptonBranch on November 17, 2019, 06:35:06 PM
A man who defies his wife is not married long lol....
;D
Lolll, I have never needed to defy my dearest. She earns more money than me, she is also a member of the NGS and treasurer of our MRC!
The notion that I would only be allowed to purchase 1 Loco a year could possibly grounds for divorce. Thankfully I have lots of them. :claphappy:
Quote from: honestjudge on November 17, 2019, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: BramptonBranch on November 17, 2019, 06:35:06 PM
A man who defies his wife is not married long lol....
;D
Lolll, I have never needed to defy my dearest. She earns more money than me, she is also a member of the NGS and treasurer of our MRC!
The notion that I would only be allowed to purchase 1 Loco a year could possibly be grounds for divorce. Thankfully I have lots of them. :claphappy:
Locos or grounds? :uneasy: ;)
Quote from: honestjudge on November 17, 2019, 04:21:13 PM
Just out of interest, do you ever limit SWMBO on expenditure?
SWMBO is the sole wage earner in my house so no I do not limit her spending and am thankful when she lets me buy for one of my hobbies.
Defying the finance committee, you lot will get me shot :D
Still the last time I got moaned at; with a reply of "you can never have enough locos dear", I probably don't help myself!!
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 17, 2019, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: honestjudge on November 17, 2019, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: BramptonBranch on November 17, 2019, 06:35:06 PM
A man who defies his wife is not married long lol....
;D
Lolll, I have never needed to defy my dearest. She earns more money than me, she is also a member of the NGS and treasurer of our MRC!
The notion that I would only be allowed to purchase 1 Loco a year could possibly be grounds for divorce. Thankfully I have lots of them. :claphappy:
Locos or grounds? :uneasy: ;)
I'll leave that for you to ponder.
Just spoke to Hattons about this and they are still saying January 2020, perhaps they are not going to show any engineering prototypes or pre painted samples like Farish and Dapol do
Would be nice if it's true
NGM
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on November 20, 2019, 02:41:02 PM
Just spoke to Hattons about this and they are still saying January 2020, perhaps they are not going to show any engineering prototypes or pre painted samples like Farish and Dapol do
Would be nice if it's true
NGM
It really would be, but the only logical reasoning for that possibility is the one you suggest.
That is certainly at odds the conversation I had with someone on the Hattons stand at the Great Electric Train Show on the 12th October - they said still at CAD stage and wouldn't be drawn on a release date but it certainly didn't sound imminent.
We will see but I for one am not holding my breath...
Roy
Spoke to a very helpful chap on the Hattons Stand yesterday. I queried why no publicity for the Garratt and asked where it is at. the answer is that it is still at CAD stage and so far orders have been disappointing, it proceeding to tooling therefore appears far from a nailed on certainty currently. I queried the choice of model and apparently the reasoning in part at least was because their 00 model had been their best seller to date. According to this gentleman Hattons reckon N Gauge Market is 10-12% of 00, this is at odds with Bachmann and I do wonder (suspect) it reflects their experience currently without the Farish range to sell...
He did say that this lack of take up didn't necessarily mean their minds were closed to further models in N but the message seems clear, if you want an N Gauge Garratt then it doesn't seem like it will happen without more pre-orders.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 12:30:50 PM
Spoke to a very helpful chap on the Hattons Stand yesterday. I queried why no publicity for the Garratt and asked where it is at. the answer is that it is still at CAD stage and so far orders have been disappointing, it proceeding to tooling therefore appears far from a nailed on certainty currently. I queried the choice of model and apparently the reasoning in part at least was because their 00 model had been their best seller to date. According to this gentleman Hattons reckon N Gauge Market is 10-12% of 00, this is at odds with Bachmann and I do wonder (suspect) it reflects their experience currently without the Farish range to sell...
He did say that this lack of take up didn't necessarily mean their minds were closed to further models in N but the message seems clear, if you want an N Gauge Garratt then it doesn't seem like it will happen without more pre-orders.
Roy
I do wonder if it's partly because their initial publicity for it (which is usually the most effective) had it as only having one side powered, which made it seem a bit of a lightweight. Another factor could be from being announced at a time when some other pre-order manufacturers for N were cancelling or even going bust. Possibly some negativity towards pre-ordering models around then. As you mentioned, their lack of Bachmann stock and loss of a chunk of their N gauge regulars from that probably doesn't help either.
Either way, they're not exactly going to get pre-order sales without publicity.
And only days after they assured me it was still on target for its listed January 2020 delivery date they are saying to others its not even gone to tooling yet with probably not enough orders for them to even actually produce it.
I bet they would have had none of these issues if their first N-Gauge steamer had been a 9F 8)
Looks like Farish will be getting my loco allowance this year as their 8F looks to be on target for June 2020 (At long Last) with the Garratt now looking to be more like 2021 if at all now.
NGM
Personally I find the Beyer-Garratt a strange sort of choice. There are so many steam locos that could be done that would have a far greater appeal and probable take-up ...IMO.
Even the ill fated DJM King had limited appeal, as not everyone has either the room or desire for a mainline express set-up with a large rake of coaches. I have the room on my layout, but would not want a B.Garratt. I did want two DJM Kings, but hay-ho I got my deposits back.
In GWR/WR terms maybe a 4-6-0 County or large 42xx/72xx could have been a more attractive option, or perhaps an updated LMS Crab or S&D 2-8-0?
There is also scope for specific use carriages and TPOs that could be done. Still, they did some research and came up with the B.Garratt, so who am I or we to question their choice? That said the lack of orders must speak for itself here. Just my two pennyworth guys.
BR Standard 4MT 4-6-0 was my suggestion although I did also suggest an LNER tank loco such as an N2.
Roy
Perhaps we should start a Hattons N-Gauge Wish List so they might have a clue as to what we actually want to buy.
Just a thought
NBM
This is a real shame - I can see why pre-orders were poor as it was a niche choice for N but I rule 1'd one to help the project along and because i liked the idea of something really grand and a bit silly on the layout!
My thoughts are some kind of suburban tank with inside valve gear would have been a better seller if less visually exciting - failing that a Clayton or USA S-160 would have been a shake up! Actually given how widespread it was in the UK (briefly), worldwide and in preservation, someone really needs to do the S-160.
Nevertheless I like the Garrett idea and I'm sad to see it's looking unlikely.
Perhaps fairer to say less likely...
Regards
Roy
There are a fair few locos not available in N that would have wide appeal.
A class 44/45/46 would be great although of course Farish might well retool theirs sometime.
GW types missing that come to mind are 63xx and a large prairie. The mogul was the most numerous tender loco built by the GWR and was quite a maid of all work doing everything from pick up goods to the odd express working.
Having said that Hattons must have a great deal of data on what models sell best.
I suspect announcing something as radical as the Garrett then end up not bothering with it because pre orders were not enough may do them more harm than good in this their first foray into n-gauge loco building,
I bet those over at Farish are having a good old chuckle at their expense.
Quote from: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 12:30:50 PM
Spoke to a very helpful chap on the Hattons Stand yesterday. I queried why no publicity for the Garratt and asked where it is at. the answer is that it is still at CAD stage and so far orders have been disappointing, it proceeding to tooling therefore appears far from a nailed on certainty currently. I queried the choice of model and apparently the reasoning in part at least was because their 00 model had been their best seller to date. According to this gentleman Hattons reckon N Gauge Market is 10-12% of 00, this is at odds with Bachmann and I do wonder (suspect) it reflects their experience currently without the Farish range to sell...
He did say that this lack of take up didn't necessarily mean their minds were closed to further models in N but the message seems clear, if you want an N Gauge Garratt then it doesn't seem like it will happen without more pre-orders.
Hattons have exactly the same problem DJM started to have - they've not yet delivered anything, so people don't know what to expect, so to pre-order feels a risk.
Moreover, the prototype is impressive, but not that common, so how widespread folk's desire of it is debatable. Furthermore, many who are willing and want a Garratt will have built the Skytrex kit (I fall into that category - I've built no less than 7 of them for myself and others over the years, and still have one to do).
For me therefore, I would struggle to justify pre-order, but would probably consider one once it turned up.
It's a shame that Hattons feel folk aren't interested - but I think they need to deliver something good quality first. Then trust will be established and they could build a N Gauge range. this is where I feel the whole pre-ordering thing is a minefield, as we've seen for different reasons with DJM.
Cheers,
Alan
In fairness to Hattons, they have produced their own stuff, albeit not in N, and you don't part with cash when you pre-order, and they're a well established and financially sound business.
Quote from: emjaybee on November 26, 2019, 10:10:50 AM
In fairness to Hattons, they have produced their own stuff, albeit not in N, and you don't part with cash when you pre-order, and they're a well established and financially sound business.
I don't doubt any of that. I wasn't implying they'd be the next DJM, or there's any risk in terms of the financial or business side of things.
But they have no experience in N, and that showed with the first design choice on the Garratt - a single motor, to which a lot queried and weren't convince it was a good design choice. Hattons acknoledged and changed, but it shows that they are early days in terms of N - they or the manufacturer they are working with (it seems a lot of their O and OO is actually made by Heljan, who also don't do N). As such, I'm sure at least some potential buyers would wait until seeing what they produced and the quality and performance of it before deciding.
Cheers,
Alan
I suspect that there are multiple factors at play here:
- what sells well in 4mm is no guarantee of sure sales in 2mm (and vice versa)
- Hattons aren't asking for financial commitment but also that means where is the imperative for people to pre-order? Is the production run limited?
- personally I wouldn't be worried that an inexperienced N manufacturer listens to ideas and changes the spec accordingly - that shows they are listening (plus many of the factories they will be working with will be very familiar with N, albeit not something like the Beyer Garratt).
- is the model the right one? It certainly makes a strong statement, but for the vast majority of purchasers I guess it is going to be a rule 1 purchase
If decisions are being made based on the level of pre-orders then I think you have to tell your potential customers that otherwise hundreds of people could be sat there thinking they just need to wait for the model to arrive.
Cheers Mike
I might have liked one if I had a larger layout as, to my mind, such a loco with anything less than 40-50 mineral wagons hanging off it would not look right. For many who have chosen N gauge owing to lack of space that would mean a real tail-chaser and, I'm sorry, would look somewhat ridiculous.
Yes - it could run light engine/ + a brake van or two and could clank past (in my mind as I can't stand N gauge sound) but it's an expensive engine for such.
I feel they should maybe have plumped for something smaller/more widespread on the network as their first offering :hmmm:
£228 for a sound fitted loco is not a bad price & it's a good spec, with the double chassis & all. That said I accept the comments that it really is too big for Thetford Rd, to look right our max is about 7-8 coaches. As for sound we now have 3 & you just can't put up with them all going round at once!!
Were did you hear that, they don't list any sound fitted option on their site let alone one only £29 more than the non sound version.
NGM
Quote from: Dickydcc on November 26, 2019, 12:49:48 PM
£228 for a sound fitted loco is not a bad price & it's a good spec, with the double chassis & all. That said I accept the comments that it really is too big for Thetford Rd, to look right our max is about 7-8 coaches. As for sound we now have 3 & you just can't put up with them all going round at once!!
Hi Richard
There has been no mention of a sound fitted one, just that it would be designed to fit sound. I think you may be getting mixed up with the Farish sound fitted 8F which will retail at somewhere around that price after discount.
There is no way in any case they could make sound viable for such a small mark up over the standard model (even allowing for cost of sound chip etc at wholesale prices).
Regards
Roy
Hi all
Under Specifications & features it says dcc sound ready, does that not mean what it says? Then dcc fitted £228, what have I missed?
Rich
I'm sure it was mentioned on RMWeb that DCC Sound ready means that it will be fitted with a speaker (or at least a hole to mount a speaker in). I'd be very suprised if it comes factory fitted with DCC sound for anything less than £100 more than the basic DC model.
Steven B.
Quote from: Dr Al on November 26, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
Quote from: Roy L S on November 25, 2019, 12:30:50 PM
Spoke to a very helpful chap on the Hattons Stand yesterday. I queried why no publicity for the Garratt and asked where it is at. the answer is that it is still at CAD stage and so far orders have been disappointing, it proceeding to tooling therefore appears far from a nailed on certainty currently. I queried the choice of model and apparently the reasoning in part at least was because their 00 model had been their best seller to date. According to this gentleman Hattons reckon N Gauge Market is 10-12% of 00, this is at odds with Bachmann and I do wonder (suspect) it reflects their experience currently without the Farish range to sell...
He did say that this lack of take up didn't necessarily mean their minds were closed to further models in N but the message seems clear, if you want an N Gauge Garratt then it doesn't seem like it will happen without more pre-orders.
Hattons have exactly the same problem DJM started to have - they've not yet delivered anything, so people don't know what to expect, so to pre-order feels a risk.
Moreover, the prototype is impressive, but not that common, so how widespread folk's desire of it is debatable. Furthermore, many who are willing and want a Garratt will have built the Skytrex kit (I fall into that category - I've built no less than 7 of them for myself and others over the years, and still have one to do).
For me therefore, I would struggle to justify pre-order, but would probably consider one once it turned up.
It's a shame that Hattons feel folk aren't interested - but I think they need to deliver something good quality first. Then trust will be established and they could build a N Gauge range. this is where I feel the whole pre-ordering thing is a minefield, as we've seen for different reasons with DJM.
Cheers,
Alan
Dr Al--taking the worst case assumption that hattons dont proceed--can you advise on the construction of the kits you have made.
cost of kit--skytrex -?
2 used farish chassis--crabs --?
any other parts.
and--a ball park estimate of time taken to complete--including painting and decalling.
i have one on pre-order--nothing to lose..but not expecting one.
DCC Sound ready = designed to take a sound decoder and speaker (May even have a speaker fitted)
DCC fitted = DCC decoder (not sound) fitted
There's no way that Hattons are going to fit a sound decoder for £29 unless they've found a cheaper sound decoder manufacturer than Hornby's TTS range.
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:16:36 PM
Dr Al--taking the worst case assumption that hattons dont proceed--can you advise on the construction of the kits you have made.
cost of kit--skytrex -?
2 used farish chassis--crabs --?
any other parts.
and--a ball park estimate of time taken to complete--including painting and decalling.
i have one on pre-order--nothing to lose..but not expecting one.
To be honest, this isn't so easy nowadays, for the reasons below:
Cost: Skytrex kit (later re-issued by Lytchett Manor models) is not now available. The moulds were basically worn out, so the last produced were fairly rough. As such you're looking at the secondhand market for either a prebuilt one to strip and rebuild or an unbuilt kit. You'll probably be looking at 40 to 50 quid for an unbuilt kit now.
Chassis: needs 2 Farish black 5 (old Poole design)
Beyond that, it depends how far you want to go on detailing. You can do nothing more and just build out of the box, or you can add all the finesse of handrails, fine detail, etc. This will influence build time too - as well as experience. Well experienced modeller building this only out of the box could probably do a complete low melt solder build in a day (not painted).
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on November 27, 2019, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:16:36 PM
Dr Al--taking the worst case assumption that hattons dont proceed--can you advise on the construction of the kits you have made.
cost of kit--skytrex -?
2 used farish chassis--crabs --?
any other parts.
and--a ball park estimate of time taken to complete--including painting and decalling.
i have one on pre-order--nothing to lose..but not expecting one.
To be honest, this isn't so easy nowadays, for the reasons below:
Cost: Skytrex kit (later re-issued by Lytchett Manor models) is not now available. The moulds were basically worn out, so the last produced were fairly rough. As such you're looking at the secondhand market for either a prebuilt one to strip and rebuild or an unbuilt kit. You'll probably be looking at 40 to 50 quid for an unbuilt kit now.
Chassis: needs 2 Farish black 5 (old Poole design)
Beyond that, it depends how far you want to go on detailing. You can do nothing more and just build out of the box, or you can add all the finesse of handrails, fine detail, etc. This will influence build time too - as well as experience. Well experienced modeller building this only out of the box could probably do a complete low melt solder build in a day (not painted).
Cheers,
Alan
not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain. i wonder if they will go ahead..? or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick. if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:49:21 PM
not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain. i wonder if they will go ahead..? or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick. if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?
I've had one on pre-order from the beginning.
I'm big enough an ugly enough to know that
a) January 2020 was much too optimistic
b) It isn't a con
c) They definitely should be doing more publicity
d) There's a very good chance the Hattons person that told someone a few days ago it would still be January, is so far removed the project, they wouldn't even know what a Garratt was :P
I can wait.
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:49:21 PM
not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.
Original price is about right - I've built the kits for a lot less though with careful and lucky secondhand buys of both kit, prebuilt kit and chassis, or chassis/repairable non-runners. That way I've bought the components to build often for under £100 all in.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:49:21 PM
not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain. i wonder if they will go ahead..? or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick. if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?
Of course it's not a con, but it's never going to hit January 2020, and is clearly being neglected by Hatton's to an extent.
The underlying issue, and I feel like this is coming up loads at the moment (Cavalex, KR Models, Hatton's), is that these often slightly leftfield choices from 'new' manufacturers (that is not Bachmann/Dapol/Hornby) seem to sell themselves in OO gauge, whilst N guage needs a lot more nurturing. I suspect this is purely a symptom of a smaller market - you need (made up figures) 20% of N gauge modellers to buy versus 5% of OO gauge for equivalent sales.
It's easy to sit, as an N gauge modeller, and think "well they're not on here shouting about it, they're not promoting it, they could be doing more", but as a manufacturer if you launched a model in N and OO gauge, and the OO gauge one reached critical mass by itself why would you invest more time in what appears to be the less lucrative option (N gauge) unless you have a personal vested interest in N gauge? That, ultimately, is how Revolution came to being.
It is disappointing that Hatton's haven't got the confidence to push on with this at the moment, I've no interest in a Beyer Garratt, but I'd have their FEAs/RHTT and other things they've offered, and it's hard to image this will encourage them to try and shrink other models, even if they've made things a little harder for themselves with this model.
Quote from: Bingley Hall on November 28, 2019, 02:30:33 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:49:21 PM
not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain. i wonder if they will go ahead..? or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick. if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?
I've had one on pre-order from the beginning.
I'm big enough an ugly enough to know that
a) January 2020 was much too optimistic
b) It isn't a con
c) They definitely should be doing more publicity
d) There's a very good chance the Hattons person that told someone a few days ago it would still be January, is so far removed the project, they wouldn't even know what a Garratt was :P
I can wait.
Quote from: njee20 on November 28, 2019, 09:39:48 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:49:21 PM
not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain. i wonder if they will go ahead..? or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick. if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?
Of course it's not a con, but it's never going to hit January 2020, and is clearly being neglected by Hatton's to an extent.
The underlying issue, and I feel like this is coming up loads at the moment (Cavalex, KR Models, Hatton's), is that these often slightly leftfield choices from 'new' manufacturers (that is not Bachmann/Dapol/Hornby) seem to sell themselves in OO gauge, whilst N guage needs a lot more nurturing. I suspect this is purely a symptom of a smaller market - you need (made up figures) 20% of N gauge modellers to buy versus 5% of OO gauge for equivalent sales.
It's easy to sit, as an N gauge modeller, and think "well they're not on here shouting about it, they're not promoting it, they could be doing more", but as a manufacturer if you launched a model in N and OO gauge, and the OO gauge one reached critical mass by itself why would you invest more time in what appears to be the less lucrative option (N gauge) unless you have a personal vested interest in N gauge? That, ultimately, is how Revolution came to being.
It is disappointing that Hatton's haven't got the confidence to push on with this at the moment, I've no interest in a Beyer Garratt, but I'd have their FEAs/RHTT and other things they've offered, and it's hard to image this will encourage them to try and shrink other models, even if they've made things a little harder for themselves with this model.
ok--so con was maybe not the best word to use--so lets try--testing the market. and its worked--poor response from their market. so who will take a bet on whether they proceed ?
Not really sure of your point though, of course they're testing the market, it would be a huge commercial risk to unilaterally decide to release something in a totally untested area.
The consistent theme among these models is that they always seem to be a bit weird. The Fell, GT3, Beyer Garatt etc. You'd think a wagon would be a lower-risk way to dip a toe into N gauge, although that didn't work for Cavalex either, so perhaps not.
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2019, 08:45:30 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 27, 2019, 10:49:21 PM
not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.
Original price is about right - I've built the kits for a lot less though with careful and lucky secondhand buys of both kit, prebuilt kit and chassis, or chassis/repairable non-runners. That way I've bought the components to build often for under £100 all in.
Cheers,
Alan
interesting. so--lets say there was a steady supply of the body kits--but in good condition...and you fancied setting up a cottage industry making the completed models to order---painted numbered weathered--ready to go.--for £200-- how many units do you think would sell in a year ?
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:03:58 AM
interesting. so--lets say there was a steady supply of the body kits--but in good condition...and you fancied setting up a cottage industry making the completed models to order---painted numbered weathered--ready to go.--for £200-- how many units do you think would sell in a year ?
Of the ones I've built, I have two, and sold a few others on. How many more could be sold is completely debatable as those were all the ones I had at that time - i.e. there wasn't a 'steady supply' of base components for me to answer your question, and I wasn't aiming to do that even if there had been.
Recent ebay prices for kitbuilds have been low - £120-150, likely influenced by Hattons promise, so I expect them to rise again now that Hattons are cooling off, but building to sell at those prices is a fools errand as there's basically no money in it.
Moreover, pre-build kit it's not remotely comparable with Hattons - having a complete model ready to sell, that you can show off, demonstrate and photograph is much more likely to be sold than a pre-order for something which you don't actually know exactly what it will be like (i.e. vapour-ware).
Cheers,
Alan
so if hattons do go ahead and make it--what would be the likely minimum number produced to break even ?
If Hattons had their wits about them they would have quietly set about tooling a class 45 last year. They could have brought it to market in 2020 and stole the market from Bachmann. I believe something mainstream like this would sell well and is probably a simpler loco to tool up. It's too late to do this now as Bachmann would probably get there first. In OO all mainstream locos are already covered so something a bit unusual is likely to sell well. In N there are still a number of mainstream locos that are not available and I think that is where better sales volumes might be found.
Lessons from Revolution seems to be that modern image sells better than steam in N .
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
so if hattons do go ahead and make it--what would be the likely minimum number produced to break even ?
Who knows???? Will completely depend on the costs!
You are asking questions only those in the trade know!
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2019, 11:36:08 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
so if hattons do go ahead and make it--what would be the likely minimum number produced to break even ?
Who knows???? Will completely depend on the costs!
You are asking questions only those in the trade know!
Cheers,
Alan
yep!
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2019, 11:36:08 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
so if hattons do go ahead and make it--what would be the likely minimum number produced to break even ?
Who knows???? Will completely depend on the costs!
You are asking questions only those in the trade know!
Cheers,
Alan
in fact--how about if hatton's announced they were only going to produce--say --500, and welcome pre order deposits now--would it be a sell out ?
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
what would be the likely minimum number produced to break even ?
You've no way of knowing unless Hattons are willing to tell you. They will have got a tooling cost and a unit cost (which may be variable depending on the number produced). Everything else is a business decision ie are you likely to be able to do more than one run? If more than one run how many - that impacts how you might amortise the tooling. What profit margin do you want?
IIRC Hattons are producing 8 numbers in any colour you want as long as it is black, so that reduces livery minimum quantities.
Typically it becomes too expensive for a powered model to pay for the tooling from less than 1000 units, but if they bank on two runs then it might be possible to do 1000 (or even potentially lower).
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:40:53 AM
in fact--how about if hatton's announced they were only going to produce--say --500, and welcome pre order deposits now--would it be a sell out ?
Whether it is a sell out is irrelevant if the price doesn't cover their costs!
Quote from: red_death on November 28, 2019, 11:41:27 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
what would be the likely minimum number produced to break even ?
You've no way of knowing unless Hattons are willing to tell you. They will have got a tooling cost and a unit cost (which may be variable depending on the number produced). Everything else is a business decision ie are you likely to be able to do more than one run? If more than one run how many - that impacts how you might amortise the tooling. What profit margin do you want?
IIRC Hattons are producing 8 numbers in any colour you want as long as it is black, so that reduces livery minimum quantities.
Typically it becomes too expensive for a powered model to pay for the tooling from less than 1000 units, but if they bank on two runs then it might be possible to do 1000 (or even potentially lower).
if hatton's drop it--would revolution take it on ?
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:44:04 AM
if hatton's drop it--would revolution take it on ?
I'm sure Mike will comment - but Hattons costs are almost certainly likely to be lower as they have the R+D from being involved with the Heljan OO Garratt to leverage. Revolution would have to do that R+D from scratch and cost it appropriately. Ben and Mike have openly said they are not so knowledgeable on steam as it's not their own area of personal interest.
If Hattons don't think it viable, I somehow doubt anyone else will. But maybe I am wrong, and Mike, others have different opinion.
Cheers,
Alan
Who knows theres anything to drop????
A cad outline drawing might be the only place their at and although money will of been spent on that was that a drawing that already existed??
If the numbers aren't there why would someone else even attempt picking it up???
They'll loose money, time and their name If they already produce N gauge stock.
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2019, 11:48:45 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:44:04 AM
if hatton's drop it--would revolution take it on ?
If Hattons don't think it viable, I somehow doubt anyone else will. But maybe I am wrong, and Mike, others have different opinion.
The one advantage that Ben and I have is we come cheap!
But you are right that if Hattons can't make it work financially then it is very unlikely that we would try to. I understand why Hattons picked the Beyer Garratt but it wouldn't have been my choice for a first entry into N gauge (and we've said as much to Hattons). Even from a steam perspective I think that there are better choices out there.
As Nick mentioned earlier on we have to be realistic about the size of the N gauge market - depending on who you listen to it tends to vary from 15-20% of OO. That makes borderline projects very difficult to do in N gauge without a lot of work.
I've no idea what stage Hattons are at with their Beyer Garratt either in terms of progress or in terms of pre-orders, but I still firmly believe that if they are basing decisions on the number of pre-orders then they need to clearly tell potential customers that.
Cheers Mike
Quote from: red_death on November 28, 2019, 12:33:22 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2019, 11:48:45 AM
Quote from: bigmac on November 28, 2019, 11:44:04 AM
if hatton's drop it--would revolution take it on ?
If Hattons don't think it viable, I somehow doubt anyone else will. But maybe I am wrong, and Mike, others have different opinion.
The one advantage that Ben and I have is we come cheap!
But you are right that if Hattons can't make it work financially then it is very unlikely that we would try to. I understand why Hattons picked the Beyer Garratt but it wouldn't have been my choice for a first entry into N gauge (and we've said as much to Hattons). Even from a steam perspective I think that there are better choices out there.
As Nick mentioned earlier on we have to be realistic about the size of the N gauge market - depending on who you listen to it tends to vary from 15-20% of OO. That makes borderline projects very difficult to do in N gauge without a lot of work.
I've no idea what stage Hattons are at with their Beyer Garratt either in terms of progress or in terms of pre-orders, but I still firmly believe that if they are basing decisions on the number of pre-orders then they need to clearly tell potential customers that.
Cheers Mike
thank you
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 28, 2019, 11:34:20 AM
Lessons from Revolution seems to be that modern image sells better than steam in N .
I don't think that represents the true position at all. The reality is that RevolutioN (Ben and Mike) will inevitably work on more projects from an era that they know and can find support for ones such as the 321 which may not have made the cut as a model from a mainstream manufacturer. That the 21/29 didn't get adequate support on reflection may be as much about timing as anything else, because from what I understand the Class B's after a slow start went on to sell 4000 ish vehicles.
The reality is that there are good and slow sellers in both steam and diesel, and these are typically the less popular liveries in both cases as well as some like the Desiro which was a strategic flop and could be had for £80 in the bargain bins latterly. With the RevolutioN models around and planned now maybe it would have done better but would 3-4000 sell through easily?
Diesels and DMUs that seem to sell out quickest are the green ones, steam that sells out slowest the pre-Nationalisation liveries.
Coming back to the Garratt, I think an assumption was made that because it sold well in 00 it would do so in N too. However aside from a much bigger target market, what Hattons probably failed to take into account is that there is a significant collector's market in 00 and I suspect a good % of the ones sold will never turn a wheel, and it matters not that they are too big for most 00 layouts and restricted both geographically and in terms of lifespan. I do not believe that same collector's market exists to anything like the same extent in N.
I do think something like the LMS Twins may have found more success in the quirky camp but I honestly think a much better bet for a steam loco would have been something with more widespread appeal like the 43xx Mogul of Standard 4 4-6-0.
Roy
I've been pondering this project over the last day or so and been reading with interest what other people's point of view is.
Quote from: njee20 on November 28, 2019, 11:02:36 AM
The consistent theme among these models is that they always seem to be a bit weird. The Fell, GT3, Beyer Garatt etc. You'd think a wagon would be a lower-risk way to dip a toe into N gauge, although that didn't work for Cavalex either, so perhaps not.
I would say that there's a big difference between the Fell, GT3, and the B-Garrett.
The Fell had a lifespan of seven years, the GT3 had a similar lifespan, whilst the Garrett's were around for thirty one years. And of course, the numbers produced, 1, 1 and 29.
I think you also need to look at aesthetic when trying to sell model locos. Aficionados may well slather over a Fell or a GT3, but I've seen enthusiasts refer to the Fell as "a loco only it's mother could love", whilst I don't know about 'The Chocolate Zephyr', it's more like a 'Flying Turd'. The Garrett is a nicer looking, maybe because it's more traditional.
I appreciate that wagons could be a 'way in' to N gauge manufacture, but they'd just get lost in the myriad of other manufacturers, we're not short of wagon producers.
On the subject of there being plenty of OO gauge collectors who just have display models, I think you're quite correct. I also think there's a N gauge market for that.
I can see the Garrett being something that modellers would like to have in a cabinet on display. On a personal note, I've been getting excited because Kato are considering doing a new Big-Boy, and if they do, I'm having one, even if I've got to sell a kidney to do it. I'd love to have a display cabinet with a Garrett and a Big-Boy side by side.
I do, though, think the comments about Hattons advertising are correct. They don't really seem to be pushing it, and it's not easy to find on their website unless you search for it.
I live in hope that it makes it through.
:wave:
Quote from: emjaybee on November 29, 2019, 11:09:02 AM
I'd love to have a display cabinet with a Garrett and a Big-Boy side by side.
Which brings us to another plausible reason for the Garratt being chosen. As a kid I recall seeing pictures of the Beyer Garratts working the mines in South Africa and didn't even know at the time such locos appeared on UK tracks. In effect, the Garratt is the 'Big Boy' equivalent for the UK market. There was just nothing larger. We have a glut of small to medium size locos so why not a really biggun and, going by many posts, there could well be a decent market for the opposite end of the spectrum i.e. an 0-4-0 of some sort :hmmm:
The Beyer-Garrett is something of a statement piece for a layout and I'll certainly be adding a couple to my fleet...not that I really need any more locos...
Contacted Hattons today regarding the production status of the loco - quick reply that it is still due in Jan 2020.
If you speak to someone who just looks on their system maybe. In reality there's absolutely no chance of it being here next month, sorry.
Quote from: Only Me on November 29, 2019, 09:58:42 PM
Tbh for once..... everyone please get up off the floor.... I agree with Nick! 😬
If hattons want to sell welL in N they would do well to attend TINGS even if they have to lower the price of their N gauge second hand stock to realistic pricing...
Only about 50% of the Hattons N gauge pre-owned is overpriced.
100% of the Rails of Sheffield pre-owned is overpriced.
Bob
Quote from: Only Me on November 29, 2019, 09:58:42 PM
Tbh for once..... everyone please get up off the floor.... I agree with Nick! 😬
Screen shotting that that for posterity :D
Everytime Dapol and occasionally GF pull a projected model the people who want it scream and moan about always being let down (I've done it regarding the WC/BoB)
Those who have or think they have knowledge of the decision tell us all it's a decision based on the small market that the world of N is.
And the rest just stay quiet because none of it affects them.
Why oh why oh WHY if you are a Stockist and at one time were probably the biggest box shifter of the top 2 N gauge manufacturers, would you decide to step into a manufacturing role and not scream and shout about it on EVERY platform available??
Hattons are not new to this game and surely understand how marketing a brand new item works????
As @Only Me (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328) says, stick a stand at TINGS, by all accounts the set up at Warley was not the best, but at TINGS you have your target audience, N gauge modellers from around the globe were there, Mr Kato was there personally to reveal his next project, yet a company that understands market size and sales scales that wants to be a massive player in manufacturing and supplying couldn't even be bothered to chuck all their N gauge stock and a trestle table along with a glass display cabinet and huge roll out adverts providing this market with their great big statements and CAD drawings of their new flagship loco in the back of a truck to drive 1 1/2 hrs to the show surely asks more questions than it answers.
And I bet if we rang Dapol regarding the WC/BOB the person on the end of the phone will still say January 2020 delivery and that project is probably as far along as Hattons are with theirs. A nice multi colour line drawing.
Quote from: exmouthcraig on November 29, 2019, 10:53:04 PM
Everytime Dapol and occasionally GF pull a projected model the people who want it scream and moan about always being let down (I've done it regarding the WC/BoB)
Those who have or think they have knowledge of the decision tell us all it's a decision based on the small market that the world of N is.
And the rest just stay quiet because none of it affects them.
Why oh why oh WHY if you are a Stockist and at one time were probably the biggest box shifter of the top 2 N gauge manufacturers, would you decide to step into a manufacturing role and not scream and shout about it on EVERY platform available??
Hattons are not new to this game and surely understand how marketing a brand new item works????
As @Only Me (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328) says, stick a stand at TINGS, by all accounts the set up at Warley was not the best, but at TINGS you have your target audience, N gauge modellers from around the globe were there, Mr Kato was there personally to reveal his next project, yet a company that understands market size and sales scales that wants to be a massive player in manufacturing and supplying couldn't even be bothered to chuck all their N gauge stock and a trestle table along with a glass display cabinet and huge roll out adverts providing this market with their great big statements and CAD drawings of their new flagship loco in the back of a truck to drive 1 1/2 hrs to the show surely asks more questions than it answers.
And I bet if we rang Dapol regarding the WC/BOB the person on the end of the phone will still say January 2020 delivery and that project is probably as far along as Hattons are with theirs. A nice multi colour line drawing.
You raise some good points there exmouthcraig.
Perhaps since Hatton's move to their modern premises some new people are in control of decision making?
I cannot understand the choice of loco for their introduction to N loco manufacturing. It seems a strange choice to test the water.
I can only assume that if they were introducing a loco with a larger sales potential the marketing/promotions would be the same. Given their fall-out with Farish and loss of potential revenue, it is all the more surprising.
I did have some early reservations about Revolution, but they have made some wise choices of what to model, and been right up their with their promoting and updates on the progress of their models. This is earning them respect and trust amongst us modellers.
Quote from: trkilliman on November 30, 2019, 07:33:48 AM
You raise some good points there exmouthcraig.
Perhaps since Hatton's move to their modern premises some new people are in control of decision making?
I cannot understand the choice of loco for their introduction to N loco manufacturing. It seems a strange choice to test the water.
I can only assume that if they were introducing a loco with a larger sales potential the marketing/promotions would be the same. Given their fall-out with Farish and loss of potential revenue, it is all the more surprising.
It's all already been covered above.
I think it's a brilliant and bold move, albeit the implementation perhaps a little flawed.
I won't be buying 90% of the stuff that Revolution produces, but I will be buying a Garratt.
I'm glad we have both of them supporting the hobby.
Got an email overnight from Hatton's about their Garrett. However it wasn't a good update as it mentions it can't progress unless they get more pre orders with a bit of it copies below
"In order for the Beyer Garratt to progress, we need you to pre-order your locomotive as soon as possible. If you are interested in the project and would like to have the locomotive on your layout - now is the time to act! We cannot move the project along until a satisfactory number of pre-orders have been reached."
Do you think it's the cost that is slowing preorders or the unknown of Hatton's being an n gauge manufacturer.
Cost and the fairly limited reach/appeal of the prototype are probably the biggest hold ups.
The initial announcment of only having one end motorised probably didn't help since the announcment of them putting the second motor in wasn't exactly broadcast from the rafters.
I hope it gets across the line as I placed my order as soon as I heard the announcement. Mainly because it looks awesome but also to help get products to the market. The same reason I have placed orders with other new companies like revolution, c rail etc, even if the items aren't exactly what I model.
The Garrett is a bold move but it could very well be an overreach.
I have built two to a high spec with Fairburn tank mechs. however I was looking forward to the Hatton models to compliment them. Time will tell bit Christmas is not the best season to get people to commit to expenditure.
(thread merged into existing one on the same subject)
I hope this goes ahead, but on the other hand there are a finite amount of N-gauge modellers with a finite amount of money. Personally this has no attraction to me at all, either as something I "need" for a layout or which appeals to me on a Rule 1 basis, so won't be ordering.
How much are they?
Most people wouldn't give a second thought as to whether it has one or two motors - most US articulated models only have one motor, but we know better.
The majority people do not run layouts that are era or geographically specific
It is at the very top end of the price range for a UK N-gauge item (Blue Pullmans, Brighton Belles aside), which may well be causing some resistance.
Based on some of the reasons suggested - how on earth will Farish manage to move Longmoor WDs @ 145 quid and will their LNER 8F turn into a fizzer too?
Since the initial announcement, Hattons appears to have just sat back and waited for things to happen - which they ain't. Marketing is the key here.
Quote from: Bealman on December 10, 2019, 12:53:21 AM
How much are they?
200 quid - based on what else is out there, an acceptable price point.
Hmmm. A$400.
Still, I do own a Blue Pullman...... :hmmm:
Quote from: Bealman on December 10, 2019, 02:04:37 AM
Hmmm. A$400.
Still, I do own a Blue Pullman...... :hmmm:
To be fair, you do get two full locos for the price - albeit joined at the hip!
Quote from: Bingley Hall on December 10, 2019, 01:20:55 AM
The majority people do not run layouts that are era or geographically specific
...
Since the initial announcement, Hattons appears to have just sat back and waited for things to happen - which they ain't. Marketing is the key here.
1) what's your source?
2) I keep saying it, but that works for OO gauge, so we can't be surprised that manufacturers are a bit apathetic on that front when it comes to N. Why deploy limited resources on a marginal project when you can announce a OO gauge one and it'll sell itself?
Quote from: njee20 on December 10, 2019, 08:33:23 AM
Quote from: Bingley Hall on December 10, 2019, 01:20:55 AM
The majority people do not run layouts that are era or geographically specific
1) what's your source?
My monthly visit to the Yorkshire Area Group meeting (next one this Saturday) shows exactly that. More than half run what they like - and very much enjoy doing so! Whilst there are some members who model prototypical trains (copying actual train formations with the exact loco in a photo), you're just as likely to see an EWS class 66s on a rake of milk tanks as a GWR tank engine on a rake of bogie oil tanks.
My next door neighbour recently asked me to sell his stock - locos were a LMS black Five, a GWR tank engine and a Lima class 31 in BR blue; a broad spread of geography and eras I think you'll agree!
Steven B.
I'll be disappointed if it doesn't go ahead as it's just right for my era/location. As it hasn't been marketed very actively and there was no indication at the outset that it depended on pre-orders then the current situation is no surprise. I have one on order (might increase this to 2 if it helps) & if they do go ahead then I think it will sell well. Maybe a Class 28 would have been a better choice for their initial N Gauge RTR loco.
Isn't that what you need too do???
The 'official word' from Hattons is "we need more orders" so instead of you all saying
"I'll buy one if it gets it over the line"
Go and order it and them, get it into production.
Imagine if it's a pup and all those desperate to own one all spent £200/£400/£1000 on orders to make sure they got it built only to get £50 on eBay 3months later.
Quote from: Steven B on December 10, 2019, 08:58:23 AM
Quote from: njee20 on December 10, 2019, 08:33:23 AM
Quote from: Bingley Hall on December 10, 2019, 01:20:55 AM
The majority people do not run layouts that are era or geographically specific
1) what's your source?
My monthly visit to the Yorkshire Area Group meeting (next one this Saturday) shows exactly that. More than half run what they like - and very much enjoy doing so! Whilst there are some members who model prototypical trains (copying actual train formations with the exact loco in a photo), you're just as likely to see an EWS class 66s on a rake of milk tanks as a GWR tank engine on a rake of bogie oil tanks.
My next door neighbour recently asked me to sell his stock - locos were a LMS black Five, a GWR tank engine and a Lima class 31 in BR blue; a broad spread of geography and eras I think you'll agree!
More curiousity than actually disputing it FWIW, I'm not sure I have a gauge for it. From my perspective nearly everyone I engage with has a specific sphere of interest, but that's self-fulfilling. That said, it's a leap from "I exercise rule 1" to "I want to drop £200 on this random loco", and I suspect there's something that says as collections grow people tend to be a bit more focused. Or perhaps the exact opposite.
On the unit cost, era and geography issues: Farish and Arnold have both managed to drum up sales for multiple runs of the Midland Pullman and Brighton Belle, both of which were somewhat limited in era and geography, and priced at between £300 and £400 for the set. There can't be that many people modelling the WCML and London to Brighton, so there's definitely a market for people buying something quirky and different looking for the sake of it... They just need to market the flipping thing!
I really do hope this one gets built - unfortunately as a rule 1 purchase I can't justify more than one, but I pre ordered on the day it was announced.
I think Hattons' whole approach to the Beyer Garratt has been very half-hearted, especially of late. To not promote it at all at the biggest model railway show in the calendar (Warley) if they are at all serious about it is just unforgiveable.
Could it be that their true objective is to tell us that they've "tried" an offer to the N market and it didn't work (which with their promotional approach - or rather lack thereof - will become a self-fulfilling prophecy).
Yes, agreed, a Co-Bo, ideally along with "Condor" wagons would have probably appealed to a wider audience if they are indeed serious..
Roy
I wonder if they did any market resurch before deciding their first n-gauge loco would be the Garrett?
With both Graham Farish and Dapol reducing the number of Steam Models and increasing the number of Diesels and Electric models, I wonder if buying tastes are changing so much these days the we will soon have a last day of steam in the model rail world as well.
Remember they probably have more customers the the ngaugeforum has members and they may well be dictating what they make, not us, I know the audacity of them ;)
I have one on pre order but do think it was an ill thought out choice for their first n-gauge Model, but still thankful that it was not yet another class 66
NGM
Could it be the Bachmann embargo on Farish stuff going through Hattons is biting more than they thought so the Garratt is maybe just being allowed to wither on the vine in the hope Bachmann then reverse their decision? Just thinking aloud. :hmmm:
Quote from: Newportnobby on December 10, 2019, 09:53:58 AM
Could it be the Bachmann embargo on Farish stuff going through Hattons is biting more than they thought so the Garratt is maybe just being allowed to wither on the vine in the hope Bachmann then reverse their decision? Just thinking aloud. :hmmm:
A very interesting theory! I hope they build the Garrett and they get back with Farish.
I signed up for one the day it came out and like my other recent purchases were all made to support the new products coming into the market even if they were the wrong era etc. I'm still hoping a class 17 will be built. I can dream!
I am not sure I believe the N Gauge market is too small for this - one only needs look at the growth of O gauge in the recent years - surely this is still a comparable and small market compared to N? It has many barriers to folk actually adopting it that N doesn't (space, cost even the 'budget' models).
However, it does seem to be the 'in' thing right now which manufacturers unlike N.
So it seems a semi-perfect storm here:
- N is not the trending thing, O is
- Hattons have no other N to show credibility of what they may produce
- poor initial mechanical choice of single motor
- relatively little advertising
- pre-order options must have been hit all over the industry at some level with the demise of DJM.
I don't think the prototype or era is the issue here so much - it's a good price for the model, and a completely logical choice given that they have the R+D from being involved with Heljan on their OO Garratt. We have to accept that for N we are likely to need to piggy back R+D for other gauges.
But in terms of Warley, I can see why they wanted to dedicate their stand to O gauge class A3s, A4s and OO class 66s - all these products are at the point of hitting the shelves, so promoting them foremost to chalk up sales is just common business sense.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Newportnobby on December 10, 2019, 09:53:58 AM
Could it be the Bachmann embargo on Farish stuff going through Hattons is biting more than they thought so the Garratt is maybe just being allowed to wither on the vine in the hope Bachmann then reverse their decision? Just thinking aloud. :hmmm:
The cited reason from Hattons for entering the market with OO 66s was that they couldn't get what they wanted from other manufacturers. So with that logic, the loss of Bachmann would actually be more of a drive for them to produce more themselves and cut out the vagueness of the supply chain.
Cheers,
Alan
I don't think
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on December 10, 2019, 09:45:55 AM
I wonder if they did any market resurch before deciding their first n-gauge loco would be the Garrett?
With both Graham Farish and Dapol reducing the number of Steam Models and increasing the number of Diesels and Electric models, I wonder if buying tastes are changing so much these days the we will soon have a last day of steam in the model rail world as well.
Remember they probably have more customers the the ngaugeforum has members and they may well be dictating what they make, not us, I know the audacity of them ;)
I have one on pre order but do think it was an ill thought out choice for their first n-gauge Model, but still thankful that it was not yet another class 66
NGM
Hattons' logic was that their Heljan derived Garratt is their best selling model to date in 00 so by logical extension should appeal to N in a similar way.
I don't think the facts support the idea that manufacturers in N are deliberately moving away from steam in favour of D & E, truer to say that there has been a general slow down in brand new releases, but looking at Farish (ignoring minor re-tools or re-tread to enable DCC sound) we have had: -
Steam - Castle, C Class and 8F due in six months or so.
Diesel/Electric - Class 40, 158 and the more recently announced 319 - due???
Dapol have produced the 68 in N alongside the 00 one to leverage their exclusive right to make this loco to the maximum, the long awaited, paused and reinstated Class 50 and have the BoB/West Country still to come.
What there is in diesel terms is a lot more livery variants and sub-classes in the list so I would think it fairer to say the split of new tool is more like even-stevens personally.
All that said, the Garratt does begin to feel like it was more a grand statement from someone who doesn't know the N Market well, and now that they don't sell Farish aren't even truly a major player in it. Their market share in the scale is inevitably diminishing.
What could they sell to complement the Garratt?? Nothing Farish that's for sure!
Roy
Totally agree with Roy, I think there's a bit of confirmation bias there. I certianly don't think there's any active move away from steam and/or toward diesel and electric.
When was the last electric loco produced? The 86 about 8 years ago? I realise that's ignoring units, but still...
Hatton's (should) have reams of market data on what sells, and whilst there will no doubt be some variation in scales it stands to reason that a big main line loco will sell better in N than OO, so to that end the Garrett seems a sound choice, based on their historic data.
We can speculate for ages about why it's not been more popular. It's easy to say "it was a poor choice of model, and X would be more popular", but it's difficult not to conflate that with "I want X, whilst I don't want what they've offered".
O guage is an interesting one as a comparator, I'm prepared to wager that the margins are higher and the required production runs are smaller. I've heard it being said it's far less price sensitive too. It's never going to be a cheap facet of the hobby, so people are more accepting of that. I have to say I think £275 for the Dapol 66 seems an absolute bargain and is quite likely to tempt me!
Response I got
" Hi Aaron, the project is not crowdfunded, it is just our standard pre-order process but we do need to ensure we enough orders for the project to be viable.
I guess we will just have to wait and see with fingers crossed
Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 09:59:58 AM
I am not sure I believe the N Gauge market is too small for this - one only needs look at the growth of O gauge in the recent years - surely this is still a comparable and small market compared to N? It has many barriers to folk actually adopting it that N doesn't (space, cost even the 'budget' models).
However, it does seem to be the 'in' thing right now which manufacturers unlike N.
So it seems a semi-perfect storm here:
- poor initial mechanical choice of single motor
-
Cheers,
Alan
As I've suggested already this is a complete furphy. In effect saying that the various US articulateds such as Athearn's Challenger or Big Boy (that are all bigger than the proposed Garratt) are lemons because they only have one motor, when they are amongst the some of the best steam designs in recent years. I wonder if Mr Kato will cop some flak if his proposed Big Boy only has one motor?
They're very different models though. You put one motor in a Big Boy and you can put all the weight centrally over up to 16 large driven wheels.
Put one motor in a Beyer Garratt and you likely have the majority of the weight in the wrong place, and you're only driving 6 wheels. It's more akin to putting a tender at each end of a Big Boy and then putting the motor only in one of those.
Two thoughts on this thread.
1. Although there is a lack of pre-nationalisation motive power being produced normally these days, we still see lots of new private operator wagons coming on to the market both by the majors and limited runs. Perhaps both the Garrett and GF's 8F are trying to tap into this area?
2. If a manufacturer wants to know who does what in n gauge would it not make sense to get some stats from the NGS after all they have asked us for what we model for decades so they should know not only who does what but what trends are happening.
Anyway I have ordered two, if produced I just hope they will pull some of the huge number of coal wagons I have accumulated over the years.
I think the one or two motor issue is more about weight distribution physical resistance, and angular resistance.
The Big Boy and the like, also Broadway centipede models have close articulation points so only have minimal angular resistance where as the garrets have widely spaced articulation points so the non powered end pivot points on curves is not in line with the powered bogie and track beneath it, the effect being they are partially being pushed sideways to the line of the track causing resistance. Like a lorry trying to jackknife.
I think the other feed of experience is those of us who have built Garratt locos with and without two motors. Single motor models are frankly a waste of a potentially good model.
Quote from: Bingley Hall on December 10, 2019, 12:04:28 PM
As I've suggested already this is a complete furphy. In effect saying that the various US articulateds such as Athearn's Challenger or Big Boy (that are all bigger than the proposed Garratt) are lemons because they only have one motor, when they are amongst the some of the best steam designs in recent years. I wonder if Mr Kato will cop some flak if his proposed Big Boy only has one motor?
I don't agree, because of below:
Quote from: njee20 on December 10, 2019, 12:09:00 PM
They're very different models though. You put one motor in a Big Boy and you can put all the weight centrally over up to 16 large driven wheels.
Exactly this. Furthermore, putting a central motor in the Garratt and trying to drive both ends is basically impossible, as there's nowhere to put the necessary driveshafts at the smokebox end - the prototype just doesn't have anywhere where this could be credibly hidden.
The US models are bigger - but that plays to their advantage in having more space to put mechanism etc.
Thus, dual motor for this prototype is the only credible approach, and plenty of buyers spotted this immediately (not to mention those of us who've built Garratt kits).
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Bingley Hall on December 10, 2019, 12:04:28 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 09:59:58 AM
I am not sure I believe the N Gauge market is too small for this - one only needs look at the growth of O gauge in the recent years - surely this is still a comparable and small market compared to N? It has many barriers to folk actually adopting it that N doesn't (space, cost even the 'budget' models).
However, it does seem to be the 'in' thing right now which manufacturers unlike N.
So it seems a semi-perfect storm here:
- poor initial mechanical choice of single motor
-
Cheers,
Alan
As I've suggested already this is a complete furphy. In effect saying that the various US articulateds such as Athearn's Challenger or Big Boy (that are all bigger than the proposed Garratt) are lemons because they only have one motor, when they are amongst the some of the best steam designs in recent years. I wonder if Mr Kato will cop some flak if his proposed Big Boy only has one motor?
I don't buy the one motor theory either. As previously mentioned, there are N steam locos out there that will pull vast rakes that only have one motor. As also previously mentioned, there's plenty of scope for useage as opposed to some other diesel prototypes.
Quote from: emjaybee on November 29, 2019, 11:09:02 AM
I've been pondering this project over the last day or so and been reading with interest what other people's point of view is.
Quote from: njee20 on November 28, 2019, 11:02:36 AM
The consistent theme among these models is that they always seem to be a bit weird. The Fell, GT3, Beyer Garatt etc. You'd think a wagon would be a lower-risk way to dip a toe into N gauge, although that didn't work for Cavalex either, so perhaps not.
I would say that there's a big difference between the Fell, GT3, and the B-Garrett.
The Fell had a lifespan of seven years, the GT3 had a similar lifespan, whilst the Garrett's were around for thirty one years. And of course, the numbers produced, 1, 1 and 29.
I think you also need to look at aesthetic when trying to sell model locos. Aficionados may well slather over a Fell or a GT3, but I've seen enthusiasts refer to the Fell as "a loco only it's mother could love", whilst I don't know about 'The Chocolate Zephyr', it's more like a 'Flying Turd'. The Garrett is a nicer looking, maybe because it's more traditional.
I appreciate that wagons could be a 'way in' to N gauge manufacture, but they'd just get lost in the myriad of other manufacturers, we're not short of wagon producers.
On the subject of there being plenty of OO gauge collectors who just have display models, I think you're quite correct. I also think there's a N gauge market for that.
I can see the Garrett being something that modellers would like to have in a cabinet on display. On a personal note, I've been getting excited because Kato are considering doing a new Big-Boy, and if they do, I'm having one, even if I've got to sell a kidney to do it. I'd love to have a display cabinet with a Garrett and a Big-Boy side by side.
I do, though, think the comments about Hattons advertising are correct. They don't really seem to be pushing it, and it's not easy to find on their website unless you search for it.
I live in hope that it makes it through.
:wave:
My personal opinion is far less complicated. With all the current instability in the future of the country, Brexit, General Election, etc. people are just sitting tight on their money.
I'm self-employed, doing property maintenance. My phone lines are ringing far less than usual, and I mean FAR less than usual. I've spoken to other people in similar work and they are all saying the same.
People have no idea what is going to happen, so they're being financially cautious. If this project had appeared four years ago, I think it'd be a done deal by now.
Note to Mods: I have this post doesn't breech the politics issue, it's not intended to be a political comment.
Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 10:14:40 AM
What could they sell to complement the Garratt?? Nothing Farish that's for sure!
I think this is largely a non-issue. The Garratts primarily pulled long coal wagon trains, and there's plenty of manufacturers that produce suitable wagons - Peco, Dapol as well as Farish, and NGS in terms of kits.
I suspect a loco like this is a little different to say something like an HST, where there is real need for matching stock at the time of manufacture.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 12:18:54 PM
I don't buy the one motor theory either. As previously mentioned, there are N steam locos out there that will pull vast rakes that only have one motor. As also previously mentioned, there's plenty of scope for useage as opposed to some other diesel prototypes.
But when digging into the detail of said locos, it's not clear they are comparable, as above. The Garratt would in effect be nothing more than a long 0-6-0 if single motor powered, with a likely heavy and draggy dead second end. Those who've made the kit and cheaped out on a single chassis have learned this the hard way.
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 12:18:54 PM
My personal opinion is far less complicated. With all the current instability in the future of the country, Brexit, General Election, etc. people are just sitting tight on their money.
Maybe, but the money was certainly flying at Warley!
Cheers,
Alan
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.
No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 01:21:14 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.
No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.
Roy
No, it says something about the small proportion of railway modellers who actually went to the show. A small proportion of which are N gauge modellers.
I'm not sure that's a huge factor really. In the last 4 years we've seen the rise of O gauge, which is hardly a cheap facet of the hobby. If modellers were truly 'tightening their belts' it's hard to imagine that.
Given the older demographic of your average railway modeller I definitely agree that they have a higher than average disposable income. I think perhaps people may be shying away from large purchases due to uncertainty, but I think that's temporary, people want to live their lives, and I don't think that's a factor for the majority of purchasers on what are comparatively low value items in the grand scheme of things.
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 01:21:14 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.
No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.
Roy
No, it says something about the small proportion of railway modellers who actually went to the show. A small proportion of which are N gauge modellers.
Sorry, I respectfully disagree. Warley is attended by many thousands which would be a good sample size to start with.
Amongst those that are railway modellers in a proportionate sense it is pretty likely to be a fairly decent representation of railway modelling as a whole in terms of demographic, affluence, scales modelled etc.
Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 01:41:46 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 01:21:14 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.
No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.
Roy
No, it says something about the small proportion of railway modellers who actually went to the show. A small proportion of which are N gauge modellers.
Sorry, I respectfully disagree. Warley is attended by many thousands which would be a good sample size to start with.
Amongst those that are railway modellers in a proportionate sense it is pretty likely to be a fairly decent representation of railway modelling as a whole in terms of demographic, affluence, scales modelled etc.
Yes, it's well attended. But it's still only a relatively small proportion of those who are involved in the hobby.
I'm glad I'm not retired and still have 35years left in work.
Theres no way I could afford this thing on my pension!!
I dont think its economy based decisions, plenty of other manufacturers are shifting stock.
Simple answer it's a :censored: choice of a locomotive by a company that should know better and theres not many people wanting one. Yes theres 20 on here telling us they want it but that dont get it sold so I think @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) has some sense in his statement.
Maybe Hattons genuinely believed that Bachmann would back down and let them stay as a box shifter for them, stubbornness and arrogance obviously didn't win that war so in a flamboyant attempt to prove they didn't care they picked a ludicrously left field locomotive to try to show they were that confident it would have people queueing round The Wirral to obtain one and they knew exactly what they were doing.
Has the potential to turn in to a great big expensive slap in the face!!!
Is this still the Hatton's Beyer-Garratt thread or does it need moved?
A well engineered Beyer-Garratt could quite happily manage with one motor driving three axles; Those who believe it can't should look at Union Mills - I've seen one UM 0-6-0 haul a 70 coach train without slipping.
If/when it gets produced I'm sure it will sell. Hattons need to help themselves by promoting it. To have nothing at all on show at Warley was a poor choice.
I think the bigger problem is that a large proportion of steam era modellers aren't keen to order a model up-front without seeing it first. Revolution couldn't get the numbers for the class 21/29 (and struggled initially with the Class-B tanks).
KR Models has withdrawn the GT3 from N Gauge due to lack of interest.
DJ Models struggled to get enough pre-orders for the King to make that a go-er. Even with the "problems" associated with that company, is King is a poor choice of model?
A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on December 10, 2019, 01:58:35 PM
DJ Models struggled to get enough pre-orders for the King to make that a go-er. Even with the "problems" associated with that company, is King is a poor choice of model?
No. But we've already had a King in N (Farish) so some will have one and not be desperate to update. Others probably had grave concerns with the company itself by the time the King was proposed.
My personal gripe with the DJM model was the hideous mechanical design proposed - that had me running for the hills immediately.
Quote from: Steven B on December 10, 2019, 01:58:35 PM
A well engineered Beyer-Garratt could quite happily manage with one motor driving three axles; Those who believe it can't should look at Union Mills - I've seen one UM 0-6-0 haul a 70 coach train without slipping.
This is fair but possibly not analogous. The UMs do not have complex valve gear, have very slack tolerances in the tender drive, and very low detail as compared other manufacturers. If Hattons went that route they'd be slammed for a crude model with traction tyres, so they couldn't win - it's tyres that make the UM models - early ones (circa 1996) had no tyres and equivalently little haulage capacity.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Steven B on December 10, 2019, 01:58:35 PM
A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?
In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?
Quote from: railsquid on December 10, 2019, 02:43:42 PM
In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?
Farish made a King in ~1996.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: railsquid on December 10, 2019, 02:43:42 PM
In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?
Farish made a King in ~1996.
Cheers,
Alan
And Foxhunter did a very good white metal kit with brass fittings.
Quote from: Steven B on December 10, 2019, 01:58:35 PM
A well engineered Beyer-Garratt could quite happily manage with one motor driving three axles; Those who believe it can't should look at Union Mills - I've seen one UM 0-6-0 haul a 70 coach train without slipping.
If/when it gets produced I'm sure it will sell. Hattons need to help themselves by promoting it. To have nothing at all on show at Warley was a poor choice.
I think the bigger problem is that a large proportion of steam era modellers aren't keen to order a model up-front without seeing it first. Revolution couldn't get the numbers for the class 21/29 (and struggled initially with the Class-B tanks).
KR Models has withdrawn the GT3 from N Gauge due to lack of interest.
DJ Models struggled to get enough pre-orders for the King to make that a go-er. Even with the "problems" associated with that company, is King is a poor choice of model?
A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?
Steven B.
I agree with the final sentence & would Class 28 to the list. The problem is that crowdfunders need costs to be covered upfront whereas the likes of Dapol & Farish can afford the development costs as long as they think that initial sales will cover these costs; their ability to hold stock and having a large retailer base makes their business model different from say KRM. Hattons appear to fall somewhere between both business models.
Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: railsquid on December 10, 2019, 02:43:42 PM
In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?
Farish made a King in ~1996.
But not Bachmann-era Farish. Who have released updated versions of many Poole-era models, but the poster I was quoting seemed to be certain that if they did a King as well it would sell, so I'm wondering why they haven't.
(For the record I'd probably sign up for a Hattons King or a Revolution King sight-unseen, were they so minded, or buy a Bachmann-Farish/Dapol version should one ever appear. And did put my name down for a Revolution 21/29. )
Quote from: railsquid on December 10, 2019, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: railsquid on December 10, 2019, 02:43:42 PM
In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?
Farish made a King in ~1996.
But not Bachmann-era Farish. Who have released updated versions of many Poole-era models, but the poster I was quoting seemed to be certain that if they did a King as well it would sell, so I'm wondering why they haven't.
(For the record I'd probably sign up for a Hattons King or a Revolution King sight-unseen, were they so minded, or buy a Bachmann-Farish/Dapol version should one ever appear. And did put my name down for a Revolution 21/29. )
Given the models of the same era Hall, Black five, castle and 8F got the upgrade treatment it is almost certain that DJs offering queered their pitch. The question is whether they will now revisit the King.
A personal observation Re the Farish King.
I have noticed on more than one occasion, when they seldom appear on a certain auction site, they never make much money, which to me says it's model not many people want. I'm sure all manufactures keep their eyes on things and perhaps have all come to the same conclusion, not that many people want one so it's not worth re-doing.
Like I said, just my personal opinion
Bob
Quote from: Shiney Sheff on December 10, 2019, 06:35:14 PM
A personal observation Re the Farish King.
I have noticed on more than one occasion, when they seldom appear on a certain auction site, they never make much money, which to me says it's model not many people want. I'm sure all manufactures keep their eyes on things and perhaps have all come to the same conclusion, not that many people want one so it's not worth re-doing.
Like I said, just my personal opinion
Bob
I don't think it was actually a very good model, coming as it did right at the end of the Poole era, it essentially rehashed a Castle chassis and tender with a new body casting and front bogie, an object lesson in doing something on the cheap.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 07:18:14 PM
Quote from: Shiney Sheff on December 10, 2019, 06:35:14 PM
A personal observation Re the Farish King.
I have noticed on more than one occasion, when they seldom appear on a certain auction site, they never make much money, which to me says it's model not many people want. I'm sure all manufactures keep their eyes on things and perhaps have all come to the same conclusion, not that many people want one so it's not worth re-doing.
Like I said, just my personal opinion
Bob
I don't think it was actually a very good model, coming as it did right at the end of the Poole era, it essentially rehashed a Castle chassis and tender with a new body casting and front bogie, an object lesson in doing something on the cheap.
Roy
I would fully agree with this. A bit of a mule neither horse or Donkey.
I have several complete and incomplete Foxhunter kits that were going on ebay subject to the DJ model that will now be built. probably using Castle chassis.
I model the north-east of England (somewhere around the Newcastle / Darlington / York areas) during the steam-diesel transition area.
I had previously discounted buying a Hatton's Garratt for several reasons:
(1) I never saw one in real life.
(2) It is a pretty large loco for my 8' x 2'-3" double track continuous run layout.
(3) It is quite an investment.
(4) It does not fit in with the geographical area of my layout.
However, I may now have to reconsider. I was reading Booklaw's Steam Memories no. 28 North Eastern Sheds and, lo and behold, there is a picture on page 71 of two Beyer-Garratts on shed at York.
The caption reads:
"The LMS Garratts had been visiting York for many years, usually bringing iron-ore from the East Midlands for the blast furnaces of Teesside. On Saturday 16th July 1955, two of the class, Nos. 47971 of Toton, and 47982 from Hasland, had settled down for the weekend prior to working back home with empties on Monday."
I have many books about the North-Eastern Region in the 1950s and 1960s but I do not ever remember seeing a photo of the Garratts at York before.
So, if I was to order a Garratt, maybe I would only need to invoke Rule 0.5 instead of Rule 1.0.
Does anybody else have information on the Garratts on North-Eastern metals?
Ian Cairns
Los Angeles
Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 02:25:06 PM
This is fair but possibly not analogous. The UMs do not have complex valve gear, have very slack tolerances in the tender drive, and very low detail as compared other manufacturers. If Hattons went that route they'd be slammed for a crude model with traction tyres, so they couldn't win - it's tyres that make the UM models - early ones (circa 1996) had no tyres and equivalently little haulage capacity.
So a Union Mills loco with a super detailed body wouldn't haul as much as an out of the box one?
What's so wrong with traction tyres? Plenty of Continental models use them yet you hear very few complaints about them.
Steven B.
Quote from: railsquid on December 10, 2019, 02:43:42 PM
Quote from: Steven B on December 10, 2019, 01:58:35 PM
A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?
In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?
Because there are plenty of other models that are more "needed"; I'm sure the King will be done by Dapol or Farish within the next few years (unless the KR-Models one appers). There are multiple examples listed in this thread.
Had Farish's Deltic/DP1 been done as a crowd funded model I'd guess it would have sold fewer models than it did as a production model (1000 as loco and another 1000 in a train set).
I'm not sure what Hattons are trying to be. Are they aiming to replicate Farish, Hornby and Dapol by re-releasing models as and when stocks run out and demand is there, or are they looking at taking a more short term approach more like current Crowd Funding models - buy it now as we may never make it again.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on December 11, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
So a Union Mills loco with a super detailed body wouldn't haul as much as an out of the box one?
Of course it would. But that's not the point - mainstream manufacturers don't use solid cast metal bodies these days, so the likelihood of Hattons doing so is low - it'll be the normal injection moulded plastic body to get the detail the market dictates. As such UM models are a very different beast.
I don't see the big deal with having dual motors - careful design should allow those two power units to use identical components to keep costs realistic. This, with a heavy boiler weight, and tanks weighted, could give strong performance retaining detail and avoiding tyres.
Quote from: Steven B on December 11, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
What's so wrong with traction tyres? Plenty of Continental models use them yet you hear very few complaints about them.
It's definitely a means to an end, and a possible solution. There's plenty of complaints at some levels about them coming off, stretching etc from what I've seen on Dapol//Farish that have them, so it's debatable. I know I've had to change tens and tens of loco tyres for people where they've degraded - some due to users of course (oil!!!!). On the flip side, I've never had any trouble with them on my own stock.
Cheers,
Alan
Just received a delivery from Hattons, excellent service as I only placed the order yesterday. In the box was a copy of the current (Christmas) Product Catalog. Plenty of info regarding forthcoming products but I couldn't find any reference to the Garratt (apologies to Hattons if I missed it). Disappointing as it looks like they have given up on it.
Dr Al.
I own several Minitrix, Fleischmann and Arnold steam locos. All of those with traction tyres work perfectly and with some over 30 yrs old, they are durable in service. I bought a Dapol Brittania which cast off a tyre in a couple of inches, it went back and the replacement arrived with one tyre completel off the rim.. I got a refund.
The problem is not in traction tyres per se. It is in poor quality control. Something that seems to affect Dapol, and to a lesser amount Graham Farish, when it comes to steam locos.
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:22:48 PM
Dr Al.
I own several Minitrix, Fleischmann and Arnold steam locos. All of those with traction tyres work perfectly and with some over 30 yrs old, they are durable in service. I bought a Dapol Brittania which cast off a tyre in a couple of inches, it went back and the replacement arrived with one tyre completel off the rim.. I got a refund.
The problem is not in traction tyres per se. It is in poor quality control. Something that seems to affect Dapol, and to a lesser amount Graham Farish, when it comes to steam locos.
I think this becomes very subjective and down to personal experience.
I've had no personal trouble with modern models I've bought, but have seen countless that others have had trouble with.
Old Minitrix, I've found almost always need replaced as they are always life expired, soiled, or solidified.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:22:48 PM
Dr Al.
I own several Minitrix, Fleischmann and Arnold steam locos. All of those with traction tyres work perfectly and with some over 30 yrs old, they are durable in service. I bought a Dapol Brittania which cast off a tyre in a couple of inches, it went back and the replacement arrived with one tyre completel off the rim.. I got a refund.
The problem is not in traction tyres per se. It is in poor quality control. Something that seems to affect Dapol, and to a lesser amount Graham Farish, when it comes to steam locos.
Frankly it's a problem of poor materials being used by modern manufacturers. Trix, Minitrix and Arnold traction types were made of a tough plastic material that was and remains resistant to oil. Modern China types are a rubber type compound that swells when exposed to oil and I believe humidity as well. It simply changes shape and it seems to be a one way change.
If you take care and avoid oil spills and DONT push your models along the track modern traction tires will last, but are very fragile.
Sorry but modern Fleischmann and Arnold tyres are every bit as good as their earlier offerings. I have had a couple of locos that needed replacement tyres due to the original ones hardening and so losing grip. Maybe it's coincidence but they were Minitrix 9Fs.
However, with over 250 locos in my fleet, all of which see service over the course of every couple of years, the only returns I've had for loose traction tyres have been Dapol. I've also returned three Dapol 9Fs and three Dapol Granges due to poor running, with the locos surging, then slowing repeatedly. This after long running in as per Dapol's instructions.
As an aside I took delivery last week of a Kato C59 Pacific steam locomotive. Competitively priced with respect to UK steamers, it runs like a sewing machine straight from the box. It will pull huge amounts of stock and has an effective brass flywheel. Oh that we could get similar quality in UK outline steam.
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:42:07 PM
I have had a couple of locos that needed replacement tyres due to the original ones hardening and so losing grip. Maybe it's coincidence but they were Minitrix 9Fs.
The absolute newest UK outline Minitrix out there is of the order 30 odd years old (late 80s/early 90s it stopped), so generally the tyres are aged at best nowadays, or completely shot at worst. Some of the early Minitrix from the late 1960s and early 1970s stuff is of course 40-50 years old!
The last few 9Fs I've seen have needed new tyres, as have the last dozen or more Ivatts.
Small supplies of spares can still be obtained, but not sure what they are made of.
Surging on Dapol models means the motor commutator needs cleaned.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on December 11, 2019, 01:46:40 PM
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:42:07 PM
I have had a couple of locos that needed replacement tyres due to the original ones hardening and so losing grip. Maybe it's coincidence but they were Minitrix 9Fs.
The absolute newest UK outline Minitrix out there is of the order 30 odd years old (late 80s/early 90s it stopped), so generally the tyres are aged at best nowadays, or completely shot at worst. Some of the early Minitrix from the late 1960s and early 1970s stuff is of course 40-50 years old!
The last few 9Fs I've seen have needed new tyres, as have the last dozen or more Ivatts.
Small supplies of spares can still be obtained, but not sure what they are made of.
Surging on Dapol models means the motor commutator needs cleaned.
Cheers,
Alan
Thanks for the info on surging. However brand new out of the box, and surging through 3 hours of running in following recommended lubrication,this is not acceptable. My thought was a dry motor bearing, but for brand new models, they go back if they don't work.
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 01:42:07 PM
As an aside I took delivery last week of a Kato C59 Pacific steam locomotive. Competitively priced with respect to UK steamers, it runs like a sewing machine straight from the box. It will pull huge amounts of stock and has an effective brass flywheel. Oh that we could get similar quality in UK outline steam.
When Dapol and Farish are making the same volumes as Kato that may happen.
Quote from: GAD on December 11, 2019, 02:08:02 PM
Thanks for the info on surging. However brand new out of the box, and surging through 3 hours of running in following recommended lubrication,this is not acceptable. My thought was a dry motor bearing, but for brand new models, they go back if they don't work.
Totally - but worth remembering in future if any model suffers that once its out of warranty.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Steven B on December 11, 2019, 09:55:33 AM
I'm not sure what Hattons are trying to be. Are they aiming to replicate Farish, Hornby and Dapol by re-releasing models as and when stocks run out and demand is there, or are they looking at taking a more short term approach more like current Crowd Funding models - buy it now as we may never make it again.
Is there really much difference between the two scenarios you describe other than crowdfunding requiring money upfront? A non-crowdfunding manufacturer is only going to rerun something if they believe there is demand.
I don't see that a crowdfunding company wouldn't re-run models IF there is demand and crowdfunding helps establish a level of demand. The difficulty is that demand might have been largely satisfied in the first run.
A slight tangent to this thread anyway as Hattons aren't crowdfunding.
Cheers Mike
There's a Skytrex kit built one on flea bay starting at £240....and its not mine :no:
Also any reply about a Hasland garratt at York? My late father was a Hasland driver ( he liked them) and I recall him getting to York. would like to know more.
Andy
Quote from: Thorpe Parva on December 11, 2019, 12:21:50 PM
Just received a delivery from Hattons, excellent service as I only placed the order yesterday. In the box was a copy of the current (Christmas) Product Catalog. Plenty of info regarding forthcoming products but I couldn't find any reference to the Garratt (apologies to Hattons if I missed it). Disappointing as it looks like they have given up on it.
It is still showing on their web site and they are still taking pre-orders, both of which suggest that no decision to cancel has been taken.
Apologies for dragging this back to topic ...
No they've been upfront that it's not cancelled, but that they do need confirmation of interest to give them confidence to proceed. How long that leave that is something else.
I wonder how many other folks picked up the Garratt flyer at Warley 2018 like I did, fixed it to the fridge door with a magnet, waited and watched. January 2020 is here so I've written to Hattons to enquire what is happening but alas, no reply as yet.
I skipped Warley 2019 because in a crowded exhibition season, there were other venues to visit and I bet I'm not alone. To read that Hattons didn't have anything on show this year does suggest to me that this was a whim so it isn't going to happen.
I for one would invoke rule 1 just so that the inner child could play and enjoy such a magnificent sight trundling around provoking my imagination to try and visualise and awsome sight that disappeared before I was born. Who cares that it doesn't fit my chosen location, that's not the point. I saw a Skytrex model running recently which only reinforced my wish to have one.
I suppose I may not have helped as I have also asked Hattons how well it will run. Dapol steam locos do not like certain parts of my layout. I have some 'basic' points installed in the back scene area, some of which I wouldn't expect it to turn off, but I would expect it to cross. I don't want to spend double bubble (for me) on something that rides over point blades or plastic frogs, even if they are radius 2 and I don't want to have to faff with subtle adjustments to a new model. I wish I could try a mock-up chassis. Trouble is, it's catch 22, I don't want to commit unless I know it's worth buying, Hattons won't commit unless I promise to buy one. That's a lot of negatives but I live in hope.
Happy New Year all.
@Smokebox Door (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7017) I know you can't access our N'Porium until you have 10 posts but member Fredastaire currently has a Garratt (LMS livery) for sale @£240 using the Skytrex kit and 2 x Farish Black 5 chassis. If interested, I suggest you drop him a PM and he could send pics to you.
Oh, and welcome to the forum :wave:
I'm not sure whether it has been posted on here, but Hattons have confirmed on RMweb that the Beyer-Garratt won't progress to tooling until they receive sufficient pre-orders - from Hatton's Dave:
"We're currently at the CAD stage but cannot yet move to tooling before we have sufficient pre-orders to do so.
I would advise anyone who has not yet placed a pre-order, but is interested in the project, to place their order as soon as possible. You can see all versions of the Garratt on THIS page.
Please note that no money or deposit is taken for any pre-order until the finished item is delivered into stock and is ready to be sent out to you."
Cheers Mike
Much as I would like these models I doubt they will reach their numbers.
I think if they were close they would take the risk of going forward.
Hattons have got a customer database. One would have thought they would have polled their existing customers to see what loco project was most likely to be successful. Not exactly rocket science.
Quote from: Chris Morris on January 29, 2020, 06:16:20 PM
Hattons have got a customer database. One would have thought they would have polled their existing customers to see what loco project was most likely to be successful. Not exactly rocket science.
Frankly if they were rocket scientists they would not be trying to earn a living out of model railways. Its strictly a business for enthusiasts.
Just placed a pre-order for a couple to get the numbers up.
I really, really want this on my layout !
If they wanted oddball they should have gone for the Lickey Banker. Even though it's totally wrong for my layout I would have bought a Big Bertha.
Quote from: Chuffington on January 30, 2020, 11:15:35 AM
Just placed a pre-order for a couple to get the numbers up.
I really, really want this on my layout !
I did that about three months ago but I had hoped I would have them for a show last weekend as they originally said release date January 2020. Now there is no release date and they seem to have dropped the advertising for them so I would think they will not go ahead at all. However your comments made me check the Hattons website and I was surprised, although I should not be, to find that these items have been deleted. (They did the same with my pre-order for the Hornby 5-BEL). I have firmed up the order by phone with Hattons and got and order number.
The problem is that being let down again N-gaugers are (I imagine) becoming more and more cynical about these promised items. I suspect the Fell will be felled next.
In the meantime having spoken to Hattons they do not seem to be able to add anything more regarding the status of the model, so I have to keep £400 in my bank account just in case; money I could use to order some Chemflos but do not want to get overstretched.
The important bit in all this waffle is that if you think you have an order check that it is on their system. If they have deleted mine they could delete yours too.
Incidentally although I don't think anyone has mentioned this before perhaps the most important thing here is that it will pull a reasonable lengthy train because in my book this is major virtue of N gauge and we will not know that until there is at least an EP to demonstrate.
This not a rant about Hattons however and I think they have provided an excellent service over many many years.
I have moved them to my 2021/2 budget freeing up funds for other projects :)
Quote from: honk843 on January 30, 2020, 01:28:19 PM
In the meantime having spoken to Hattons they do not seem to be able to add anything more regarding the status of the model, so I have to keep £400 in my bank account just in case; money I could use to order some Chemflos but do not want to get overstretched.
Hi
I doubt you will see these before 2021 at the earliest if they appear at all.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: PaulCheffus on January 30, 2020, 02:10:05 PM
Quote from: honk843 on January 30, 2020, 01:28:19 PM
In the meantime having spoken to Hattons they do not seem to be able to add anything more regarding the status of the model, so I have to keep £400 in my bank account just in case; money I could use to order some Chemflos but do not want to get overstretched.
Hi
I doubt you will see these before 2021 at the earliest if they appear at all.
Cheers
Paul
I would order the Cemflos. You are guaranteed that you will get them. I would use this link sooner rather than later. http://www.revolutiontrains.com/product/cemflo-pcv/ (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/product/cemflo-pcv/)
There is no guarantee at all on the Hattons model. Even if they pushed the go button now, it would be Q4 2021 before you would see them.
Bob
Quote from: honk843 on January 30, 2020, 01:28:19 PM
Incidentally although I don't think anyone has mentioned this before perhaps the most important thing here is that it will pull a reasonable lengthy train because in my book this is major virtue of N gauge and we will not know that until there is at least an EP to demonstrate.
I'm sure haulage was discussed at the initial announcement as, at the time, only one chassis was powered. Seems Hattons listened to potential customers and now both chassis are powered.
Hopefully that will prove to be adequate
there are a few problems in China that will delay everyone's proposed delivery dates!
They have apparently extended he new year holiday by a week t prevent people travelling.
Martin
I give it two weeks before all of China is closed to the world and they will do it to themselves.
With the March Toddler there was a Hattons catalogue. No sign of the Garrett anywhere so I looked on the website and it is still there. BUT under N gauge Steam locos there are supposedly 5 items under "Hattons "Dreamlist" and under diesel and electric there are 12 items each as Dreamlist. There are no items specified however. Does anyone have any idea what Hattons are up to?
Dream list has been on their site for ages, appeared shortly after the demise of DJM......
Quote from: honk843 on February 24, 2020, 10:34:18 AM
Does anyone have any idea what Hattons are up to?
And when they find out can they please tell Hattons? :D
Just received this email from Hattons:
Due to lower sales than projected, we have made the difficult decision to suspend our LMS Beyer Garratt 2-6-0 0-6-2T project in N gauge. All development work will be paused.
We will not cancel any pre-orders at this time but we will not be taking any further orders for these products.
Your pre-order will remain within your account. Please get in touch if we can help with anything else.
Disappointed, not surprised.
Just saw this on instagram, then checked my email. Bit disappointed as I was looking forward to it.
Disappointed they did not appear last Christmas, a second disappointment this year and Hattons have lost their Graham Farish/E.F.E Rail/Bachman franchise as well. Does seem they are not too concerned about us. I notice that even the cancellation e-mail says OO gauge. People seem to think that only OO gauge exists.
Not surprised either.
They didn't exactly put much effort into trying to flog it. Beyond the first announcement there was very little, if any, promotion of it. No wonder it was low sales.
A great pity - I think it would have been a superb model - I had pre-ordered 3 of them.
Surely would have sold well in South Africa & Australia - maybe they should have secured overseas distributors ?
Glad I bought a couple of the old GEM/Fleetline kits and a few Graham Farish Poole made Black 5's now.
While I am sorry to see the failure of this venture, as I currently have three with sound I am not panicking :D
In fact I was planning to sell one of my models which has sound based on the Skytrex kit and black 5 chassis but held off when this was announced.
If anyone is interested please contact me.
I'm not at all surprised. N Gauge is clearly a marginal market for steam outline locos and such an esoteric and expensive offering was always going to be a long way down most want-lists. What a shame that Farish and Dapol are squatting on most of the top contenders.
Still showing as a pre-order on the website.....
Still showing as a pre-order on the website....
Quote from: Dickydcc on October 22, 2020, 01:21:41 PM
Still showing as a pre-order on the website.....
They have said that they have suspended it rather than cancelled and if there is enough interest they will press on and that they have not cancelled orders. Just don't hold your breath- as if we would.
Yes it's hardly likely to spontaneously gain enough interest in suspension, given they gave it precisely no attention when it was 'live'. All a bit strange.
RHTT, or even a high spec 66 would probably have been a better bet, and something(s) they have CAD for.
Disapppointing but not too surprising as it seems to be have been abeyance for several months.
Since Hattons' falling-out with Bachmann my regular on-line purchases from Hattons have stopped. Looks like the Garratt is another chunk of money they won't be getting from me. I did comment on the corresponding thread on RMWEB that if Hattons & Bachmann were to make up then the Garratt would be a possible candidate for the EFE range (which seems to be largely third-party products) as it would gain a lot more exposure. Oh well.
Posted earlier today on RMWeb by Matthew Richter of Lychett Manor models:
" Further Update
Following the news that Hatton's have now suspended the work on their Garratt, I will be looking in to re doing the mould so further kits can be produced, I am also looking in to producing it as a 3D printed kit as I have purchased a 3D printer to make some things for myself and also to slowly expand my range. Further to this if there is sufficient response I will also look at the S&DJR 7F again, but I will not invest unless their is a demand for both models.
There is lots of work going on behind the scenes, all be it at a slower pace and only when both time and pain allows me to try and do things, it may take me a while to bring these items back but I am working on them and also other new items to go in to both ranges.
Further to this the old "Fleetline" name is now officially no longer used, and all new N gauge items will be under the Lytchett Manor Models name, look out for new packaging coming soon and new models."
Hope this is of interest.
Richard
Quote from: longbow on October 21, 2020, 10:16:04 PM
N Gauge is clearly a marginal market for steam outline locos and such an esoteric and expensive offering was always going to be a long way down most want-lists.
I'd agree that this was the wrong choice for a company's first toe in the water with N gauge steam, but the LMS Garratt is hardly esoteric: 33 built (compare: only 38 Princess Coronations or 36 A4 Pacifics) as the mainstay heavy goods engines for the Midland mainline for thirty years. But perhaps that's an issue: general knowledge about the reality of the steam railway is declining and people don't seem inclined to find out, which affects perceived demand.
Still, not sure I'd agree that N steam is "marginal" yet - plenty of models out there. And there is such a thing as a good new model creating a demand - class 17 Clayton anyone? But not, perhaps, at £199 a pop for a model from a non-proven brand in N.
RT
Richard
I contacted Hattons and said that as an N gauge modeller who had had £400 waiting to buy a pair of these locomotives, perhaps they could confirm if hey were doing anything else and if not what they could supply that was new. Unfortunately I did not qualify what I meant by new and they suggested a whole array of Dapol product which at the best were renumbering of earlier models. Even a Siphon which was if I remember correctly one of their earliest releases.
I replied to the effect that I had all the models within the range they were offering that I wanted most of which I had bought from the Signalbox in Rochester who had stopped trading the best part of ten years ago. and were they able to offer things like the Sonic 56XX tank, Revolution 128 etc. (tongue in cheek)
It appears that it has all fallen on deaf ears however and I got a one word reply "Sorry".
It just about sums things up though. How can Hattons expect to attract an N Gauge clientele when they don't do anything in N gauge. My account has not has anything debited on it since the beginning of the year and that was for track. I have however bought a lot of stuff either locally or from Rails.
I was another one with two Garratts as a target.
IMOthough it was an unfortunate choice, being unsuitable for many modellers layouts.
Personally I would have thought with the Patriot project underway an unrebuilt Patriot would have been a much bigger draw, being justifiable on many modern image layouts.
Don't want to get over exited, but the Garratts are back on Hattons for pre-order.
Quote from: Haanaya on January 24, 2021, 07:12:37 PM
Don't want to get over exited, but the Garratts are back on Hattons for pre-order.
Don't think it was ever taken off as I'm sure I checked before Christmas and they were still there.. My pre-order is still on my account too.
Thought it might be too good to be true, I find the Hattons site a little tricky to navigate sometimes, it can be a little hard to find anything off the beaten track, as it were. I have managed to register my interest, which I didn't thing was possible any more.
I will wait and watch, hope is a wonderful thing!
I don't think that Hattons ever deleted them although they were deleted from their advertising, but there may have been a change in the spec. recently?. My order has never been deleted but I threw away my original spec. a couple of weeks back.
When we were circulated to say that this was being put on ice I asked Hattons if they could offer an alternative, forth-coming new out-line N gauge loco (not just a renumber/re-liveried job) as I had £400 put to one side for them. I got a one word answer--Sorry. Although they did say that they were going to review the situation in due course, I would have thought the Covid restrictions would not help.
It says on the Rails web-site that the EFE class 17 (all 11 versions) is sold out at Bachman and if Hattons look at their problem with Bachman and Dapols slow N gauge movement they may feel that they are missing out (no Sonic/ Revolution either?) So as they have already spent money they may feel it better to continue.
If the advertising picks up we will know until then don't expect too much.
Sounds like we are not completely beyond hope, but I won't hold my breath. Thank-you for explaining, it's good to have a better picture of all the ins and outs. (And the class 17's are really nice.)
I know some have made mention that the advertising may not have been very well targetted, I only discovered the Hattons model while looking for other info on the web.
(Please understand, that's in no way a criticism!)
Hopefully Hattons will be able to revisit this when things return to whatever normal we will all have to learn to live with!
I don't think any crowdfunded N Gauge steam loco has reached its production hurdle to date. And the B-G is a harder sell than most. So I don't hold out much hope we'll see this one in production.
I've still got a new Lytchett white metal kit in the project drawer. If only I had the time to build it ! :P :D
Quote from: Mr Sprue on January 26, 2021, 07:59:12 AM
I've still got a new Lytchett white metal kit in the project drawer. If only I had the time to build it ! :P :D
So have I, and a pair of the chassis set aside that have been tested to have matching performance, but I'd still buy two from Hattons if available.
Only one of my current three active layouts can accomodate the length/practical radius, and even there it would look rather stupid with only about six wagons trailing, so none of them would be required until the now long term lockdown access prevented layout gets built, and who knows when that's going to be possible? In what gaps I have had between lockdowns I have done the lighting and part prepared the area, with 16' 9" x 8' volume of walling to paint next!!
Oh, and to the locos "nearly there when time" list, running and base painted but awaiting finishing, :-
LMS (ex LNWR) G2/G2A 0-8-0 (Round firebox boiler, to add to my two UM ones to provide the two main boiler types, I was a little frustrated that UM chose the belpaire when there's no motor to have to accomodate!)
LMS (ex LNWR) Prince of Wales Tank
LMS (ex S&DJR) 2-8-0 (well out of my layout area, but hey, I like the look!)
Basically, I have a thing for parallel boiler locos, with three Fowler 2-6-4T, two "Patriot", and a "Scot".
As already said, IMO Hattons should have gone for a parallel boiler Patriot, which would offer the full range of LMS and BR steam liveries inc the upcoming modern "new build".
@Bad Raven (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1153)
TBH after seeing the superb work that Dr AL did modeling the white metal B-G kit, its inspired me to have a go and definitely high up on my modeling bucket list! ;)
Quote from: longbow on January 26, 2021, 12:45:37 AM
I don't think any crowdfunded N Gauge steam loco has reached its production hurdle to date.
Just a point of information - the Hattons B-G
isn't "crowdfunded". Hattons are testng the market by inviting expressions of interest with no commitment to buy. Money is not being taken and used to fund production of the model if you place a pre-order.
I think that there's a lot wrong with how they are approaching this project - the choice of prototype for their first N steam loco, and that they are going about soliciting expressions of interest in a very half-hearted and inefficient manner - but this is not a DJM-type risky project as far as the consumer is concerned.
In fact, apart from the unlamented DJM I'm not sure that I can think of a single crowdfunded N loco project - they have all been low-risk expressions of interest.
Cheers,
Richard T
Quote from: Richard Taylor on January 26, 2021, 09:02:14 PM
Quote from: longbow on January 26, 2021, 12:45:37 AM
I don't think any crowdfunded N Gauge steam loco has reached its production hurdle to date.
Just a point of information - the Hattons B-G isn't "crowdfunded". Hattons are testng the market by inviting expressions of interest with no commitment to buy. Money is not being taken and used to fund production of the model if you place a pre-order.
I think that there's a lot wrong with how they are approaching this project - the choice of prototype for their first N steam loco, and that they are going about soliciting expressions of interest in a very half-hearted and inefficient manner - but this is not a DJM-type risky project as far as the consumer is concerned.
In fact, apart from the unlamented DJM I'm not sure that I can think of a single crowdfunded N loco project - they have all been low-risk expressions of interest.
Cheers,
Richard T
Might be true for steam, but everything from RevolutioN has been crowdfunded including an electric loco, Pendolino, DMUs and EMUs. The Sonic 56xx is not crowdfunded.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on January 27, 2021, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: Richard Taylor on January 26, 2021, 09:02:14 PM
Quote from: longbow on January 26, 2021, 12:45:37 AM
I don't think any crowdfunded N Gauge steam loco has reached its production hurdle to date.
Just a point of information - the Hattons B-G isn't "crowdfunded". Hattons are testng the market by inviting expressions of interest with no commitment to buy. Money is not being taken and used to fund production of the model if you place a pre-order.
I think that there's a lot wrong with how they are approaching this project - the choice of prototype for their first N steam loco, and that they are going about soliciting expressions of interest in a very half-hearted and inefficient manner - but this is not a DJM-type risky project as far as the consumer is concerned.
In fact, apart from the unlamented DJM I'm not sure that I can think of a single crowdfunded N loco project - they have all been low-risk expressions of interest.
Cheers,
Richard T
Might be true for steam, but everything from RevolutioN has been crowdfunded including an electric loco, Pendolino, DMUs and EMUs. The Sonic 56xx is not crowdfunded.
I think we might have different understandings of "crowdfunding". My understanding is that crowdfunding is when the consumer pays up front for the costs of developing and producing the item on the understanding that these payments are at risk if the project does not succeed - the DJM way of business, where he was spending customer's money as he went and relying on future payments to see the project through (or, in his case, robbing Peter to pay Paul to stay afloat.)
This type of "crowdfunding" has now got a very bad name in model railway circles thanks largely to DJM, which is why other more reputable manufacturers (or, rather, commissioners) do not like the term being applied to their business model.
I would not regard anything Revolution have done as having been "crowdfunded" - Revolution ask for expressions of interest with no cash commitment, and if they receive enough to indicate that the project is worthwhile then they start the design and production process and invite pre-orders. These pre-orders only require you to put down a deposit (if you want to support Revolution by paying the full amount up front you can, but they don't insist on it) and Revolution then bear all the costs of design and development and you don't pay for the model until it actually exists and is ready for delivery.
That's not "crowdfunding" in my book, but YMMV. I just don't think Revolution, or Hattons, would be happy to be labelled as crowdfunders.
Cheers, Richard
Revolution describe themselves as crowd-funders on their home page.
https://www.revolutiontrains.com/ (https://www.revolutiontrains.com/)
Anyway we both know the difference between DJModels and Revolution.
i agree that Hattons are definitely not crowd-funding the BG.
Crowdfunding is where expressions of interest are asked for with a commitment to pay if the critical number of funders or the total funds meet a pre determined level.
You do not pay until this number is reached but you are committed to pay if it does.
IMH no N gauge model has been strictly crowdfunded and that is why it has all gone wrong.
The closest and most reputable is Revolution as they don't ask for an upfront financial commitment, trusting in their customers to pay up against expressions of interest. :thumbsup:
Thanks all - interesting discussion. I'd missed the reference on Revolution's page! :headbutt:
RT
If Hattons & Bachmann could put any past issues behind them then this would appear to be an ideal candidate for the EFE Rail range. The downside would be that the price would not be as low as the £199 still quoted on the Hattons website.
After the Rails fire Bachman may be forced to make peace with Hattons
Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 16, 2021, 11:13:39 AM
After the Rails fire Bachman may be forced to make peace with Hattons
@Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761) Rails haven't had a fire, David. The Fire Brigade had to forcibly enter their premises to check for occupants. They have suffered some smoke damage but most of the mail order stuff is stocked off site
EDIT: From RMWEB, posted by Oliver of Rails of Sheffield.
"I am pleased to report that all is well at Rails. The fire was in the property adjoining the Emporium.
Minor damaged was caused to both the Emporium and flat above. The majority if this damaged was made by the Firemen who had to break into both the shop and flat to check for occupants and spreading of the fire. Luckily the fire hadn't spread to us and all residents were safe and well.
So we have a little bit of water and smoke damage in the flat and require a couple of new doors and a shutter. A full emporium deep clean is also taking place.
All new mail order stock is held off site so is unaffected. The business continues to function as normal.
We would like to thank the South Yorkshire Fire Department for all their efforts on Sunday, as things could have been a lot worse!
Our thoughts go out to the victim of the fire who I hear is still critical in hospital. "
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 16, 2021, 11:21:47 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 16, 2021, 11:13:39 AM
After the Rails fire Bachman may be forced to make peace with Hattons
@Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761) Rails haven't had a fire, David. The Fire Brigade had to forcibly enter their premises to check for occupants. They have suffered some smoke damage but most of the mail order stuff is stocked off site
EDIT: From RMWEB, posted by Oliver of Rails of Sheffield.
"I am pleased to report that all is well at Rails. The fire was in the property adjoining the Emporium.
Minor damaged was caused to both the Emporium and flat above. The majority if this damaged was made by the Firemen who had to break into both the shop and flat to check for occupants and spreading of the fire. Luckily the fire hadn't spread to us and all residents were safe and well.
So we have a little bit of water and smoke damage in the flat and require a couple of new doors and a shutter. A full emporium deep clean is also taking place.
All new mail order stock is held off site so is unaffected. The business continues to function as normal.
We would like to thank the South Yorkshire Fire Department for all their efforts on Sunday, as things could have been a lot worse!
Our thoughts go out to the victim of the fire who I hear is still critical in hospital. "
Good to hear, the first reports by the local rag were far more worrying.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 16, 2021, 12:35:15 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 16, 2021, 11:21:47 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 16, 2021, 11:13:39 AM
After the Rails fire Bachman may be forced to make peace with Hattons
@Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761) Rails haven't had a fire, David. The Fire Brigade had to forcibly enter their premises to check for occupants. They have suffered some smoke damage but most of the mail order stuff is stocked off site
EDIT: From RMWEB, posted by Oliver of Rails of Sheffield.
"I am pleased to report that all is well at Rails. The fire was in the property adjoining the Emporium.
Minor damaged was caused to both the Emporium and flat above. The majority if this damaged was made by the Firemen who had to break into both the shop and flat to check for occupants and spreading of the fire. Luckily the fire hadn't spread to us and all residents were safe and well.
So we have a little bit of water and smoke damage in the flat and require a couple of new doors and a shutter. A full emporium deep clean is also taking place.
All new mail order stock is held off site so is unaffected. The business continues to function as normal.
We would like to thank the South Yorkshire Fire Department for all their efforts on Sunday, as things could have been a lot worse!
Our thoughts go out to the victim of the fire who I hear is still critical in hospital. "
Good to hear, the first reports by the local rag were far more worrying.
Have you ever known the press to let the truth get in the way of a good story? :no:
I would think that there is more chance of Lord Lucan being discovered on the moon with Elvis in a London Bus than there is of Hattons or anyone else of producing RTR Beyer Garratt in N now.
It isn't unreasonable to conclude that as a consequence of Hattons' and Bachmann's "disagreement" N Gauge sales at the said retailer will be far less than they were and I wonder whether we will ever see an N Gauge product with the "Hattons" brand on it now.
That said, from some of the feedback I have read regarding certain O and OO products I am wondering if I actually dodged a bullet!
So I am instead keenly awaiting Sonic's next steam loco...
Roy