I am as new as can be should Imstart with DC or start with DCC Please advise

[Chris Morris]

I still think dcc isn't necessary for most layouts but it is a good way for manufacturers to upsell. I will say that if people enjoy it then that's fine.

I'm happy matching my sound when I want it and getting the whole train sound through a decent speaker. All for free, if you exclude the cost of driving round the country to get a bit of video of a preserved loco.

[Webbo]

I'm with Chris in that DCC is not for me at the moment - but, I do like sound. So, I've cheated and set up my layout for DC as well as limited DCC capability through an MRC Black Box which can be switched as an alternative power supply to the tracks which was very easy to do. I've a total of 5 sound equipped locos and about 40 DC locos many of which are not DCC ready.

My friend at Pacific Western Rail Systems tells me that he now sells many more DCC sound locos than straight DCC locos, but DC is in second place. DC does have the advantages of being much more robust electrically and of being able to run multiple locos in a train together more easily. I've had one DCC sound loco blow up on me so far (a Broadway Limited Imports E8), and most of my trains have two or more locos pulling them so both the DC advantages are important to me. However, if I were to start from scratch with no locos, it would be a toss-up between DC and DCC with sound.

Webbo

[njee20]

I still think dcc isn't necessary for most layouts but it is a good way for manufacturers to upsell. I will say that if people enjoy it then that's fine.

It's toy trains, of course it's not necessary. For me it enhances the enjoyment. We get you don't like it. I'm not sure about "upselling", no matter how many times you say it, I've never seen a manufacturer 'up sell' the merits of DCC, seems to be the users who do that.

[Nick]

Setting aside the rather vexed, if not downright philosophical, question of what is or isn't "necessary" in the context of a completely frivolous pastime , and returning to @GordonW 's question...

Anything you want to connect to a DCC system requires a decoder to translate the digital instructions from the controller into voltages that will drive the physical item. Not least because the DCC signal is being promulgated to every item on the DCC bus, so something has to pick out the correct instruction for each item. That's locos, point motors, signals, lights, everything (unless it already has a decoder built-in of course.)

Except for locos, you don't normally need one decoder for each item. Most static (accessory) decoders have more than one output, so can control multiple items.

You may already know this, but just in case: you don't need to source all the DCC elements from one manufacturer. (Unless, I suppose you become enamoured of some proprietary feature they possess). In general, everything is interoperable. Personally, I am running:

• A ZTC 511 controller for my layout , and a SPROGII which I use to program CV's and test locos under JMRI software on a test oval
• Loco decoders from at least ZTC, Lenz, Digitrax, Gaugemaster and Zimo. There may be others, I'd have to check, but I have vaguely tried to standardise on the Digitrax DZ125/6 series partly because they are cheap and partly because it limits the proliferation of manuals and general confusion
• Signals are controlled by Signalist decoders which provide loads of options for easily controlling various signalling situations. Far more than I need. My only Dapol semaphore signal is controlled by a TrainTech decoder specifically designed for the purpose. I think others (incl Signalist) now have such products.
• Point motor control - SEEP motors controlled by Lenz LS150 point decoders - each one controls up to six points.
• Lighting control by little Train-Tech LFX lighting effect controllers. Each one has four outputs suitable for driving LEDs directly.
• I also switch frog polarity using TamValley frog juicers. Not directly a DCC control issue, but they only  work on DCC, and, for me, provide a great feature freeing me from the tyranny of dirty point blades, and errant flakes of paint and stray pieces of ballast.

This is of course the absolutely perfect selection of ideally functioning kit, as the result of masterful research and purchasing decisions...  Of course, it isn't. I am sure there are many other ways of achieving the same end, inclduing, as others have suggested, using conventional DC or manual controls for some items. I didn't want to do that. To me, it throws away one of the main benefits of DCC that I referred to earlier. Simplifying the wiring between layout and control panel. But each to their own.

I'd say that the most difficult decision is choosing a controller. Read up their various features, speak to other modellers, either here or in a club or at shows. Talk to dealers like DCC Supplies, Digitrains, etc. (other dealers are available...) At the end of the day you're the one who will be sitting at the controller operating your layout. It doesn't matter two hoots whether other people think a controller is the best engineered, best value, most flexibly designed piece of technology since the invention of the safety bicycle if you simply can't stand the look and feel of it.

As a slight diversion, one feature I absolutely love about my ZTC511 is the ability to program preset routes, so that, by a few keypresses, I can select a route and the controller will switch all the necessary points and set all the appropriate signals. I have no idea whether other controllers offer this feature, but it will be high on my shopping list if the time comes that I have to replace the controller.

Hope that helps.

[njee20]

I know it's been said a few times, but it's worth emphasising Nick's point that choosing the controller is the hardest (and most personal) part of the whole process!

It doesn't help that most retailers will only carry a couple of models, and will generally have a pretty active interest in selling one of them. Unless you happen to be near to one of the DCC specialists; Wickness Models, Digitrains and Coastal DCC spring to mind, I'm certain there are others, who have a broader range and can probably offer more impartial advice.

Personally I also have a ZTC 511 which I really rate (although they're now long obsolete and I'm not sure I'd recommend one for someone starting out), but I've recently retired it and replaced it with a Piko SmartControl, primarily for the superior interfacing with JMRI for computer control. I like physical buttons on a controller, but I can also use the computer or my phone (via WiThrottle) to control things, which I like. I can't get on with the Z21 which is designed specifically for a phone/tablet, but loads of people rate them.

If you're not near a retailer with a really good selection of controllers then consider visiting one of the larger exhibitions to be able to try a few things out, or even ask at a local club if they have different models among their membership base you can try out.

[Nick]

Personally I also have a ZTC 511 which I really rate (although they're now long obsolete and I'm not sure I'd recommend one for someone starting out)

No, I wouldn't either. The 511 is, as you say, long obsolete, and its replacement, the 611, now seems to be out of production as well. There's a 612 in the pipeline which will apparently be a significant upgrade, including an optional 10" touch screen, but timing and pricing are unknown.

[njee20]

And as you'll well know there's been a long and chequered history with ZTC. The 611 was very expensive for what it was, and although the 612 sounds like it may be more 'up to date' it does feel they're trading on a legacy still to an extent. I shall be watching though!

[Chris Morris]

I would still recommend spending around £84 on a Gaugemaster double track controller plus transformer to anyone starting out. The transformer will always be useful and the controller can be sold on eBay if they decide to move to dcc.
This provides a simple and low cost start to the hobby with equipment you can trust.

[ntpntpntp]

... In general, everything [DCC] is interoperable.

At the output bus/track level yes that is the idea.  Not so at the control bus level (different manufacturers use different control buses). So whilst all decoders attached to the system output *should* work with any DCC system (within limits of spec for voltage etc.), don't expect that you can just plug any new throttle you fancy into the DCC system you've already bought. Check it uses the same control bus.

[Chris Morris]

As a slight diversion, one feature I absolutely love about my ZTC511 is the ability to program preset routes, so that, by a few keypresses, I can select a route and the controller will switch all the necessary points and set all the appropriate signals. I have no idea whether other controllers offer this feature, but it will be high on my shopping list if the time comes that I have to replace the controller.

I used some diodes at a cost of a few pence each to enable me to have route selection changing up to five points at a time at the press of one button with my standard Peco point motors. It does require a fairly powerful cdu though -I think mine cost about £10 off eBay.

[Nick]

I would still recommend spending around £84 on a Gaugemaster double track controller plus transformer to anyone starting out. The transformer will always be useful and the controller can be sold on eBay if they decide to move to dcc.
This provides a simple and low cost start to the hobby with equipment you can trust.

I'm not sure where you get the £84 from. Gaugemaster currently list the UD double track panel controller at £60, and the cased M1 dual transformer at £53, a total of £113. You can cut that back by buying the uncased T1 transformer for £30, but I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that a beginner wire up an uncased mains transformer! We now live in a world where most people never have call to wire a three-pin mains plug because every consumer item has one pre-fitted.

However the OP wanted to control three trains, not two, so this more obvious purchase would be the TS three track cased controller, which comes in at £190, including the built-in transformer. This lines up with Guagemaster's Prodigy Express DCC Starter set at £180, although there will still be decoders to purchase.

For some reason, you are judging DCC by a strawman of your own creation, namely that it be cheaper than DC. No-one would contend that. But not everyone is price-sensitive and, to be brutally frank, most people in the country would describe every last man and woman of us on this forum as absolutely barking mad for spending the sums we do on tiny model trains.

In addition, you are skating over the very considerable complexity of designing, constructing and wiring control panels, not to mention the costs of all the wiring and other hardware involved. It doesn't all cost pennies. I have a very small layout by most people's standards, but it has 11 points, 9 2-aspect signals, 4 independent lighting circuits. Without sitting down and planning out in detail the necessary isolating sections that would be needed, I estimate that I would require over 60 connections to be brought out from the layout to the control panel, all of which would have to be connected up to switches and controls of some sort. Underboard wiring is probably also a little simpler under DCC - it's certainly not more complex.

Currently, under DCC, I have 8 wires to the layout, and it is only that many because I have chosen to provide a separate accessory bus and a programming track. It could be as few as 4 - two for the DCC bus and two for accessory power. And I don't expect ever to have to change that if I add extra goodies.

I also don't really understand why you can "trust" DC gear more than DCC kit. Or perhaps I've just been lucky. I'll let others with more experience weigh in on that.

But, in any case, it doesn't really matter what you or I prefer. There's no right and wrong here. The best way forward seems to me to provide newcomers with a tolerably balanced view, and let them decide if they want to save their cash or their time, sweat over a programming manual or a soldering iron, adopt a traditional approach or be right at the bleeding edge of the hobby's development.

As long as they enjoy themselves. Because if people don't come in and enjoy the hobby and find fulfilment in it, it will die.

[Nick]

I used some diodes at a cost of a few pence each to enable me to have route selection changing up to five points at a time at the press of one button with my standard Peco point motors. It does require a fairly powerful cdu though -I think mine cost about £10 off eBay.

I wouldn't have thought that designing a diode matrix for point control was a newbie task. And can it be done for signals? Genuine question, I don't know.

[Nick]

And as you'll well know there's been a long and chequered history with ZTC. The 611 was very expensive for what it was, and although the 612 sounds like it may be more 'up to date' it does feel they're trading on a legacy still to an extent. I shall be watching though!

Likewise. I still prefer the nice chunky controls.

Sadly, ZTC hasn't exactly leapt forward since Pat & Graham took over four years ago, and I suspect they're never going to be able to price competitively, simply because of a lack of volumes or the finance to support building them up.

[Newportnobby]

But, in any case, it doesn't really matter what you or I prefer. There's no right and wrong here. The best way forward seems to me to provide newcomers with a tolerably balanced view, and let them decide if they want to save their cash or their time, sweat over a programming manual or a soldering iron, adopt a traditional approach or be right at the bleeding edge of the hobby's development.

As long as they enjoy themselves. Because if people don't come in and enjoy the hobby and find fulfilment in it, it will die.

Very true, although I'm not sure there was a need to swear about the hobby's development

Oh, and I also resemble this remark.......

most people in the country would describe every last man and woman of us on this forum as absolutely barking mad for spending the sums we do on tiny model trains.

[Nick]

Very true, although I'm not sure there was a need to swear about the hobby's development

Oh, and I also resemble this remark.......

most people in the country would describe every last man and woman of us on this forum as absolutely barking mad for spending the sums we do on tiny model trains.

I'm guessing that the spellchecker got at that and you meant "resent". Or are you actually agreeing that you're barking mad??

The "bleeding" ambiguity never occurred to me. I thought there was a filter for that. Too mild, I suppose.