Please advise on wether to make a start with DC or make a start with DCC. I have have nothing at the mome
ThanksmGordon
Hello Gordon
Welcome to the Forum and the magical world of 'N' gauge model railways.
You might find this very helpful; I know I did!
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35556.msg416493#msg416493 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35556.msg416493#msg416493)
As regards DC or DCC, we each have our preferences. Locomotives are now available DCC-fitted which makes it much easier than some years ago when one had to fit the decoders.
If you fancy sound-equipped trains, then DCC is probably the answer.
My personal preference is DC but that's probably because I'm ill at ease in the digital world.
I think the best approach for you would be to try out both systems (other modellers/model railway club/friendly local dealer are ways to do this) and see what one suits you. You'll probably get a 'feel' for your preference straight away.
Whatever approach you choose, you'll get a lot of help on this friendly Forum.
With all best wishes.
John
:hellosign: and Welcome . I would say it depends on your budget and what you are going to produce. Let us know what type of layout your are considering .
Oh blimey, this could start an argument. It is a subject with many deeply intrenched views.
Personally I think dcc is a waste of time and money unless you really want nice bright lights on all the time and, perhaps more importantly you want to have locos with sound. There are those who say you get smoother running with dcc but I have yet to see evidence of this. Likewise there are those who say dcc wiring is simpler but I'm not sure it is unless you are building a motive power depot and want to store lots of locos on the same track. I am pretty sure if I was to build an o gauge layout, where onboard loco sound starts to get somewhere near I would use dcc but I have absolutely no desire to use dcc in N. My brother's N layouts are all dcc but both mine are analogue. We both agree that, for the layouts we have built and what we want from them, we are both using the most appropriate control system.
So you have to think what you want and then decide which is the best control system for your needs.
My videos on why I use analogue:-
Depends on your layout and the number of trains you might have running simultaneously. I generally have 4 on the go, 2 on an up line and 2 on a down line in roundy roundly fashion, with some shunting going on to the side. So for me it has to be DCC as I couldn't do that with DC.
Oh crikey, that's a bit like walking into B&Q and asking an assistant whether you should buy a hammer, a screwdriver or a chisel. What you want to do matters.
Can you give some idea of what your eventual ambitions are? What sort of layout you want?
(It could be worse. You could ask a camera club whether to buy a Nikon or a Canon!! :D)
There are good arguments for both DC and DCC. However, it really is down to you to make the decision. I'd suggest the following:
Make a list of what you want your layout to do/be. Do you want a small circuit of track with a couple of sidings or something more adventurous? Steam or diesel? Big station or country terminus? Engine shed? How many locos do you think you might end up with?
The best suggestion I can make is to go and play trains with as many control systems as you can. Find a club, model shop or ask nicely at an exhibition. There's a wide range of DC and DCC controllers available. Someone may rave about a particular controller but you may find it impossible to use.
Steven B.
Hi Gordon, and welcome to the forum :wave:
Both DC and DCC are as complicated as you want to make them so, as has been suggested, make a list of what you want from your layout and see which system ticks the most boxes.
There is always plenty of help here on the forum so don't be afraid to ask anything
G'day from Australia, Gordon, and welcome to the NGF! :thumbsup:
I'm currently in Japan and am getting a load of Japanese prototype railways as sensory overload, but I agree with all posts above.
Your question is a complex one. If your layout is going to be simple, or budget is tight, then, probably DC is the way to go.
However, as the posts suggest, plan what you want first before deciding on the control system.
Welcome aboard! :beers:
Taking a broader view - I think the best possible advice when starting out is to build a small and simple layout that you can finish quickly whilst learning the ropes. For this you won't need DCC, so that's one thing less to learn and pay for.
At a later stage if you decide to upgrade to DCC then it's not that difficult although it can be quite expensive.
Hi and welcome to the forum Gordon. I can only echo what has been said above.
As said above it really depends on your layout and how you want to run it. In my case I'm planning to use permissive working on most of my platforms and also in my engine stabling area so DCC is the only choice for me.
Welcome aboard Gordon! :wave:
Quote from: longbow on May 25, 2018, 12:46:50 PM
Taking a broader view - I think the best possible advice when starting out is to build a small and simple layout that you can finish quickly whilst learning the ropes. For this you won't need DCC, so that's one thing less to learn and pay for.
At a later stage if you decide to upgrade to DCC then it's not that difficult although it can be quite expensive.
Most modern locos come DCC ready ( ie can be retrofitted with a plug in chip). so a simple DC layout will help you learn what you want in a bigger one.
try local MR shows to see what the layouts and dealers are offering - DCC is not a cheap option ( chips are £20-30 & controllers £100 to £500+!!) but offers sound (although most modern sound locos will produce a limited range of SFX when running under DC) and a greater degree of control over loco speeds/shunting.
look for shows here:
http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/events (http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/events)
Thanks every body for your help and comments. hey are all greatly appreciated.
But I am as confused as ever, perhaps I should just go-ahead add do it
Gordon
Quote from: GordonW on May 26, 2018, 12:56:48 PM
Thanks every body for your help and comments. hey are all greatly appreciated.
But I am as confused as ever, perhaps I should just go-ahead add do it
Gordon
The difficulty is quite genuinely that there's no one "right" answer, unless one is obsessive about one method of control or the other. The reason most everyone has asked you about your layout plans is that it's very difficult to give you unbiased advice without knowing that.
E.g. If all you want to do is run a tank engine round a train set oval without sound or lights, on a very tight budget, then go DC. If you want a huge fully signalled layout with sound or a motive power depot with dozens of locos, computer control and money's no object then DCC is firmly in play.
Give us a clue... What are you hoping to do in the hobby?
Quote from: GordonW on May 26, 2018, 12:56:48 PM
... but I am as confused as ever, perhaps I should just go-ahead add do it
Have you made a simple list of the things you think you'd like to be able to do (as folk have suggested)? It may sway your decision. Arguably DCC is the "modern way" but plain DC works very well and is cheaper.
I have experience of both, though in different scales. As an IT developer I like the integration possibilities of DCC and understanding how it all works. Yet I've stuck to DC for N scale as I have a large collection of models from current production going back to locos made in the 60s and 70s which I don't want to hack around to fit DCC decoders, and with easily 100+ locos it would cost way too much to convert now! I find designing and wiring up the layout with sections etc. is part of the fun. Sound in N really doesn't impress me at all, but many folk love it of course. In G scale (for which I do run DCC) sound is impressive, but even then I tire of it after a while and turn it off.
My own layout started as a reverse copy of Peter Denny's Leighton Buzzard. After that, it extended, or grew like Topsy, without any major plan!
Having said that, I would not recommend it!
Plan carefully first. :thumbsup:
thanks again every one,
I have 1400 mm in length and 750 width. Not much room, but I did think I could perhaps run two trains and maybe with a bit of jiggery pokery a third
I am still looking out for a plan nothing so far
Gordon
I suggest you download anyrail software and doodle for a bit. You can download for free and have up to 50 pieces of track. You have a tight space and it's important to see what will fit in.
Good luck finding a plan. I'd definitely endorse Chris's suggestion of AnyRail. Too many drawn plans don't actually fit the nominal space that they are intended for once you try to implement them with real track pieces.
But back to the original question. If you wan to run two, preferably three, trains, and are starting entirely from scratch, I'd be very tempted to go down the DCC route from the outset. For a few reasons:
- Running multiple trains simultaneously needs multiple DC controllers, but only one DCC controller (assuming we are talking continuous runs of some sort). This erodes the price differential between starting up in DC as compared to a DCC starter set. And although you will obviously have to pay for decoders in the locos (or buy DCC fitted ones, which amounts to the same thing), but you won't end up in the position that ntpntpntp referred to, of sometime down the line having a large stud of locos that are prohibitively expensive to chip.
- DCC doesn't require as much advance planning as DC, because you are driving the trains, not the track. In general, DC requires you to have a fairly clear idea at the construction stage of what train movements you will be conducting on the layout so that you can isolate the necessary sections. Yes, you can change things later, but at best it's a faff.
- Similarly, you can decide at a later stage to add features, without a huge wiring overhead. I had no intention of signalling my layout when I started, or of installing lighting, but under DCC it was trivial (although admittedly not cheap). More than one of my past layout projects was abandoned because I lost interest during the construction and wiring of the control panel for things like that.
If you want to venture into loco lighting and sound, DCC is your friend.
On the downside of DCC I'd say:
- Finances - it is more expensive. That can be mitigated by using kits from MERG, etc, but for most people, it will be more expensive than DC
You're putting little computers in your locos and driving them round your layout. To get the best out of them, you may well want to configure the decoders individually, although they will work with minimal tweaking - just the setting of a loco address. But if you do want to tweak them, be sure that you are happy wading through detailed manuals describing the decoder "Configuration Variables". Sadly these manuals are not all well written or fully explanatory. On the other hand, DCC doesn't require as clear an understanding of electrical wiring as setting up a full-on common return cab control system can.
Although the situation is steadily improving, be sure to understand whether the locos you want to run on your layout are available either DCC Ready or Fitted. If they aren't, all is not lost by any means, but you will have to hard wire decoder chips into spaces that were never intended for them (or pay someone else to do it.)
That said, I'm sure a DC exponent could produce a similar list arguing the other way. There's an awful lot of personal preference in all this.
Personally, I've been delighted that I took the plunge on DCC for my layout, which is much the size of yours. It's had its frustrations, learning curve and expense, absolutely. But for me the flexibility has been great. I've a fully signalled layout, some lighting, all points controlled with minimal extra wiring hassle. (And two sound equipped locos.) Although I'm perfectly capable of doing it, wiring control panels bored me witless, and I know I wouldn't have installed many of these things if I had had to tear a panel apart, then redesign and rewire it time and again when I changed my mind.
Hope that helps.
@Nick (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1132)
From an old DC dinosaur, that is an extremely well written and cogent piece of the contrasts between DC and DCC. If you want to hold off for a week or so to check if anyone violently disagrees with you, then I would ask you add this to the tail end of my Beginners Guide, if that's OK with you?
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35556.msg416493#msg416493 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35556.msg416493#msg416493)
Yes, by all means. I tried to keep it balanced, given that I obviously have a preference.
Quote from: Nick on May 28, 2018, 02:37:25 PM
Yes, by all means. I tried to keep it balanced, given that I obviously have a preference.
You succeeded Nick. Very well balanced and presented post.
Alec. (a newbie who decided to go with DCC).
I am DC !
but, if you want the opportunity of sound then it has to be DCC.
Quote from: fisherman on May 28, 2018, 05:05:08 PM
I am DC !
but, if you want the opportunity of sound then it has to be DCC.
If you want the first person (driver) sound then I agree although I am still to be convinced by the "depth" of sound you can get from a N gauge speaker. If you want third person sound (someone watching a train go by) then I disagree. I prefer a big speaker under the baseboard giving the complete train sound. I know this works because when I used it at Swindon museum people kept looking out of the window to see what train was passing outside. With the right speaker I can make the floor vibrate as the Hymek passes but I have been banned from doing this at home and wouldn't dare do it at an exhibition. But it does give a great experience of a train going by. The sound I use is taken from video of preserved locos and edited with the free Audacity MP3 editor to fit the time it takes for a train to pass through.
I have posted this video before but it gives a feel for the sound.
Thank you for this film, Chris.
I hadn't seen it before and it is wonderful. The diesels are very good, of course, but, for me, the star of the show is the steam double-header whistling for the tunnel. Reminded me of one of the late Peter Handford's recordings.
John
Thank for that excelleent explanation of the differences between the two systems. Very clear and well considered Thanks again. I is looking as if I will go the the dcc option.
I have tried rail modeller express the language is German so I think that is a no no This is the trouble with using a Mac the choices are limited Any ideas anyone
Thanks again
Gordon
I used RailModeller Pro, which has English, are you sure there isn't an option somewhere?
Quote from: GordonW on May 29, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
I is looking as if I will go the the dcc option.
Gordon
Great choice, you won't regret it as it opens so many doors.
Quote from: Caz on May 29, 2018, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: GordonW on May 29, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
I is looking as if I will go the the dcc option.
Gordon
Great choice, you won't regret it as it opens so many doors.
Sound, yes, but I've never seen it do that on a layout :no: :P
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 29, 2018, 09:22:00 PM
Sound, yes, but I've never seen it [open doors] on a layout :no: :P
Oh yes you can definitely get that in HO for several years. It's probably been done in N too.
Great :D
Obviously no one wanted to get out where there was no platform.
Going slightly off topic and contradicting myself a little - there is no technical reason why you can't have reasonable but good basic sounds without dcc - its just that manufacturers have chosen to only make it available with dcc. A classic bit of upselling.
For example here is one of my G scale pure dc track power locos running with a sound unit that is at least ten years old. I'm not sure that the manufacturers of this sound unit still make a non dcc version.
Ok you can't get brakes by pressing F12 of station announcements on F22 but I think it is fine. Another manufacturer, Mylocsound, who only make dc sound chips and only have generic steam or diesel sounds have got over this problem. They have an infra red receiver on the sound chip and items such as the safety valve blowing or guards whistle can be activated by pressing buttons on a tv remote control. Both of the chips mentioned here have a battery to store enough power to keep the sound going when there is no power and, rather thankfully, the diesel sound automatically stops the engine running after 30 seconds with no voltage. This is not available for N and an infra red receiver would be hard to disguise in N but for me it suggests there is no technical reason for having to have dcc in order to have reasonable sound. It does however help to sell a lot of dcc power units and chips.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on May 30, 2018, 12:00:25 AM
Oh yes you can definitely get that in HO for several years. It's probably been done in N too.
Now all we need is a nanobot of Michael Portillo striding confidently along the platform under full AI control, with video web streamed from sub-miniature cameras embedded in little figures of his camera crew.
You heard it here first... ;)
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 30, 2018, 09:14:37 AM
This is not available for N and an infra red receiver would be hard to disguise in N but for me it suggests there is no technical reason for having to have dcc in order to have reasonable sound. It does however help to sell a lot of dcc power units and chips.
So here you contradict your contradiction... what is available in G is totally irrelevant to what's available in N! You can run sound locos on DC, but it doesn't work nearly as well as with DCC. Obviously on a layout like yours, which is just trains running through the scenery this is probably ok. But sounds stopping whenever locos do (because as you say you won't fit IR receivers and decent batteries in N gauge locos) is a bit daft. This isn't a sales tactic, its hard to imagine how DC sound in N (or even OO) could ever have developed to any meaningful degree.
Sinnce I made the decision to go the dcc way. I have been tying to find out what is what not the easiest of jobs. The local shop is less than helpful, sell you the gear oh yes but that is all. He told me there were twos controllers he sold one at £100 and one at £300 when asked the difference I was told like the difference tween a mini and a roll Joyce.
So where do we go, do signals and lights require a decoder and what is decent controller that will be a once only buy
`gordon
It's very personal. Some people like physical controllers, some like touch screens, some like to use their phone/tablet. You need to try a few and see what you like.
a lot of people rate the NCE PowerCab, which is comparatively cheap. The Digikeijs DR5000 is very versatile if you want to use a phone/PC/tablet for control, or the ECOS is a highly regarded top end controller. There are many options in between!
Signals can be DCC controlled if you want, as can points etc, or you can retain manual control of them, or automate them. The world is your lobster, it depends what you want to do.
Another minefield
You do not need to operate everything with the dcc system, points,signals lights etc can still be operated using switches and so on, but yes they would need accessory decoders if you were to go the dcc way.
Lights on locos come 'free' in so far as they are included in the loco decoder functions.
Operating accessories from the controller can be an awkward procedure involving changing modes with lots of button presses, so if you want to go that way you need to find one that is well thought out from that point of view. Alternatively, get one with a computer interface and do all that stuff from a computer where al controls can be on screen.
The choice may also depend on whether you prefer a knob or slider to control your trains. Most systems will let you have several 'cabs' or control stations, which you can use to have controls for more than one train at once, but these are mainly intended to allow more than one person to control trains at the same time and of course involve extra expense.
I use the Bachmann Dynamis Ultima which does all the above, but I only use the handset for controlling locos when shunting, I control points and locos via computer most of the time using Rocrail software.
I started with the Gaugemaster system but found the knob control soon got iffy as the knob encoders started missing pulses. That probably sounds like gobbledygook but the controls on a dcc system do not give a set speed for a given position like D.C. systems. This is because the control knob is shared with all locos, and if you had one set at say 50%, you would not want a second one to jump to 50% if you switched control to that loco without resettting the knob position. So the knobs are incremental and take up from wherever a loc speed was last set.
You will find as many opinions on controllers as there are controllers.
It also depends how many trains you might run simultaneously, as the current available varies between systems, though you can also get boosters for most. My dynamis syetem can power at least 6 locos simultaneously as well as coach lighting in all coaches.
Staying out of this one! Starting to think I'm happy where I am! ;)
So why reply?
Go for DCC. I returned to railway modelling after 40 years and switched to N gauge. I decided to go DCC and have not regretted it. The sheer flexibility in running multiple trains is the big difference. The real icing on the cake is DCC sound. Running full length express trains with whistles blowing as they speed through stations is pure nostalgia for me. I've now fitted DCC sound into 3 locos and it has transformed my modelling pleasure.
Go to some rail shows or local club.see the controllers in action - everyone will swear that theirs is the best ( more buttons, no buttons / control By phone etc)
Why not start with a DCC ready loco, Gaugemaster / Kato controller and some Kato track ( see Osborns for loco + track & PSU sets) and run trains for a while!
You can sell the controller later or use it to power points / accessories, so it's not money wasted. The loco will be easily upgraded when you take the plunge!
Read the DCC threads re controllers , and the track threads on Kato Unitrack, go to some shows and see them in action.
DCC is great but it is easy to make expensively mistakes. KISS!
Rule 1 - avoid the cheap Bachmann DCC controller
Rule 2 - go to rule 1
I'm really glad I went DCC as it opens up a whole new world of control, I went with Digitrax Zephyr Extra, very reasonable price and easily expandable plus there are many manufacturers of accessory decoders compatible with their Loconet system (points/signals/lights/motors etc) so it keeps the price down. If I were starting again I'd still go with Digitrax as it is so versatile.
Thnks a lot everyone, looks like I need to do a lot of research and I had better start with forum.
Your input has helped a great deal
Thanks again
Gordon
I still think dcc isn't necessary for most layouts but it is a good way for manufacturers to upsell. I will say that if people enjoy it then that's fine.
I'm happy matching my sound when I want it and getting the whole train sound through a decent speaker. All for free, if you exclude the cost of driving round the country to get a bit of video of a preserved loco.
I'm with Chris in that DCC is not for me at the moment - but, I do like sound. So, I've cheated and set up my layout for DC as well as limited DCC capability through an MRC Black Box which can be switched as an alternative power supply to the tracks which was very easy to do. I've a total of 5 sound equipped locos and about 40 DC locos many of which are not DCC ready.
My friend at Pacific Western Rail Systems tells me that he now sells many more DCC sound locos than straight DCC locos, but DC is in second place. DC does have the advantages of being much more robust electrically and of being able to run multiple locos in a train together more easily. I've had one DCC sound loco blow up on me so far (a Broadway Limited Imports E8), and most of my trains have two or more locos pulling them so both the DC advantages are important to me. However, if I were to start from scratch with no locos, it would be a toss-up between DC and DCC with sound.
Webbo
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 04, 2018, 01:07:55 AM
I still think dcc isn't necessary for most layouts but it is a good way for manufacturers to upsell. I will say that if people enjoy it then that's fine.
It's toy trains, of course it's not necessary. For me it enhances the enjoyment. We get you don't like it. I'm not sure about "upselling", no matter how many times you say it, I've never seen a manufacturer 'up sell' the merits of DCC, seems to be the users who do that.
Setting aside the rather vexed, if not downright philosophical, question of what is or isn't "necessary" in the context of a completely frivolous pastime :worried:, and returning to @GordonW (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6786) 's question...
Anything you want to connect to a DCC system requires a decoder to translate the digital instructions from the controller into voltages that will drive the physical item. Not least because the DCC signal is being promulgated to every item on the DCC bus, so something has to pick out the correct instruction for each item. That's locos, point motors, signals, lights, everything (unless it already has a decoder built-in of course.)
Except for locos, you don't normally need one decoder for each item. Most static (accessory) decoders have more than one output, so can control multiple items.
You may already know this, but just in case: you don't need to source all the DCC elements from one manufacturer. (Unless, I suppose you become enamoured of some proprietary feature they possess). In general, everything is interoperable. Personally, I am running:
- A ZTC 511 controller for my layout , and a SPROGII which I use to program CV's and test locos under JMRI software on a test oval
- Loco decoders from at least ZTC, Lenz, Digitrax, Gaugemaster and Zimo. There may be others, I'd have to check, but I have vaguely tried to standardise on the Digitrax DZ125/6 series partly because they are cheap and partly because it limits the proliferation of manuals and general confusion
- Signals are controlled by Signalist decoders which provide loads of options for easily controlling various signalling situations. Far more than I need. My only Dapol semaphore signal is controlled by a TrainTech decoder specifically designed for the purpose. I think others (incl Signalist) now have such products.
- Point motor control - SEEP motors controlled by Lenz LS150 point decoders - each one controls up to six points.
- Lighting control by little Train-Tech LFX lighting effect controllers. Each one has four outputs suitable for driving LEDs directly.
- I also switch frog polarity using TamValley frog juicers. Not directly a DCC control issue, but they only work on DCC, and, for me, provide a great feature freeing me from the tyranny of dirty point blades, and errant flakes of paint and stray pieces of ballast.
This is of course the absolutely perfect selection of ideally functioning kit, as the result of masterful research and purchasing decisions... :D Of course, it isn't. I am sure there are many other ways of achieving the same end, inclduing, as others have suggested, using conventional DC or manual controls for some items. I didn't want to do that. To me, it throws away one of the main benefits of DCC that I referred to earlier. Simplifying the wiring between layout and control panel. But each to their own.
I'd say that the most difficult decision is choosing a controller. Read up their various features, speak to other modellers, either here or in a club or at shows. Talk to dealers like DCC Supplies, Digitrains, etc. (other dealers are available...) At the end of the day you're the one who will be sitting at the controller operating your layout. It doesn't matter two hoots whether other people think a controller is the best engineered, best value, most flexibly designed piece of technology since the invention of the safety bicycle if you simply can't stand the look and feel of it.
As a slight diversion, one feature I absolutely love about my ZTC511 is the ability to program preset routes, so that, by a few keypresses, I can select a route and the controller will switch all the necessary points and set all the appropriate signals. I have no idea whether other controllers offer this feature, but it will be high on my shopping list if the time comes that I have to replace the controller.
Hope that helps.
I know it's been said a few times, but it's worth emphasising Nick's point that choosing the controller is the hardest (and most personal) part of the whole process!
It doesn't help that most retailers will only carry a couple of models, and will generally have a pretty active interest in selling one of them. Unless you happen to be near to one of the DCC specialists; Wickness Models, Digitrains and Coastal DCC spring to mind, I'm certain there are others, who have a broader range and can probably offer more impartial advice.
Personally I also have a ZTC 511 which I really rate (although they're now long obsolete and I'm not sure I'd recommend one for someone starting out), but I've recently retired it and replaced it with a Piko SmartControl, primarily for the superior interfacing with JMRI for computer control. I like physical buttons on a controller, but I can also use the computer or my phone (via WiThrottle) to control things, which I like. I can't get on with the Z21 which is designed specifically for a phone/tablet, but loads of people rate them.
If you're not near a retailer with a really good selection of controllers then consider visiting one of the larger exhibitions to be able to try a few things out, or even ask at a local club if they have different models among their membership base you can try out.
Quote from: njee20 on June 04, 2018, 11:01:29 AM
Personally I also have a ZTC 511 which I really rate (although they're now long obsolete and I'm not sure I'd recommend one for someone starting out)
No, I wouldn't either. The 511 is, as you say, long obsolete, and its replacement, the 611, now seems to be out of production as well. There's a 612 in the pipeline which will apparently be a significant upgrade, including an optional 10" touch screen, but timing and pricing are unknown.
And as you'll well know there's been a long and chequered history with ZTC. The 611 was very expensive for what it was, and although the 612 sounds like it may be more 'up to date' it does feel they're trading on a legacy still to an extent. I shall be watching though!
I would still recommend spending around £84 on a Gaugemaster double track controller plus transformer to anyone starting out. The transformer will always be useful and the controller can be sold on eBay if they decide to move to dcc.
This provides a simple and low cost start to the hobby with equipment you can trust.
Quote from: Nick on June 04, 2018, 10:11:49 AM
... In general, everything [DCC] is interoperable.
At the output bus/track level yes that is the idea. Not so at the control bus level (different manufacturers use different control buses). So whilst all decoders attached to the system output *should* work with any DCC system (within limits of spec for voltage etc.), don't expect that you can just plug any new throttle you fancy into the DCC system you've already bought. Check it uses the same control bus.
Quote from: Nick on June 04, 2018, 10:11:49 AM
As a slight diversion, one feature I absolutely love about my ZTC511 is the ability to program preset routes, so that, by a few keypresses, I can select a route and the controller will switch all the necessary points and set all the appropriate signals. I have no idea whether other controllers offer this feature, but it will be high on my shopping list if the time comes that I have to replace the controller.
I used some diodes at a cost of a few pence each to enable me to have route selection changing up to five points at a time at the press of one button with my standard Peco point motors. It does require a fairly powerful cdu though -I think mine cost about £10 off eBay.
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 04, 2018, 01:36:14 PM
I would still recommend spending around £84 on a Gaugemaster double track controller plus transformer to anyone starting out. The transformer will always be useful and the controller can be sold on eBay if they decide to move to dcc.
This provides a simple and low cost start to the hobby with equipment you can trust.
I'm not sure where you get the £84 from. Gaugemaster currently list the UD double track panel controller at £60, and the cased M1 dual transformer at £53, a total of £113. You can cut that back by buying the uncased T1 transformer for £30, but I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that a beginner wire up an uncased mains transformer! We now live in a world where most people never have call to wire a three-pin mains plug because every consumer item has one pre-fitted.
However the OP wanted to control three trains, not two, so this more obvious purchase would be the TS three track cased controller, which comes in at £190, including the built-in transformer. This lines up with Guagemaster's Prodigy Express DCC Starter set at £180, although there will still be decoders to purchase.
For some reason, you are judging DCC by a strawman of your own creation, namely that it be cheaper than DC. No-one would contend that. But not everyone is price-sensitive and, to be brutally frank, most people in the country would describe every last man and woman of us on this forum as absolutely barking mad for spending the sums we do on tiny model trains.
In addition, you are skating over the very considerable complexity of designing, constructing and wiring control panels, not to mention the costs of all the wiring and other hardware involved. It doesn't all cost pennies. I have a very small layout by most people's standards, but it has 11 points, 9 2-aspect signals, 4 independent lighting circuits. Without sitting down and planning out in detail the necessary isolating sections that would be needed, I estimate that I would require over 60 connections to be brought out from the layout to the control panel, all of which would have to be connected up to switches and controls of some sort. Underboard wiring is probably also a little simpler under DCC - it's certainly not more complex.
Currently, under DCC, I have 8 wires to the layout, and it is only that many because I have chosen to provide a separate accessory bus and a programming track. It could be as few as 4 - two for the DCC bus and two for accessory power. And I don't expect ever to have to change that if I add extra goodies.
I also don't really understand why you can "trust" DC gear more than DCC kit. Or perhaps I've just been lucky. I'll let others with more experience weigh in on that.
But, in any case, it doesn't really matter what you or I prefer. There's no right and wrong here. The best way forward seems to me to provide newcomers with a tolerably balanced view, and let them decide if they want to save their cash or their time, sweat over a programming manual or a soldering iron, adopt a traditional approach or be right at the bleeding edge of the hobby's development.
As long as they enjoy themselves. Because if people don't come in and enjoy the hobby and find fulfilment in it, it will die.
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 04, 2018, 01:42:52 PM
I used some diodes at a cost of a few pence each to enable me to have route selection changing up to five points at a time at the press of one button with my standard Peco point motors. It does require a fairly powerful cdu though -I think mine cost about £10 off eBay.
I wouldn't have thought that designing a diode matrix for point control was a newbie task. And can it be done for signals? Genuine question, I don't know.
Quote from: njee20 on June 04, 2018, 11:33:02 AM
And as you'll well know there's been a long and chequered history with ZTC. The 611 was very expensive for what it was, and although the 612 sounds like it may be more 'up to date' it does feel they're trading on a legacy still to an extent. I shall be watching though!
Likewise. I still prefer the nice chunky controls.
Sadly, ZTC hasn't exactly leapt forward since Pat & Graham took over four years ago, and I suspect they're never going to be able to price competitively, simply because of a lack of volumes or the finance to support building them up.
Quote from: Nick on June 04, 2018, 07:16:24 PM
But, in any case, it doesn't really matter what you or I prefer. There's no right and wrong here. The best way forward seems to me to provide newcomers with a tolerably balanced view, and let them decide if they want to save their cash or their time, sweat over a programming manual or a soldering iron, adopt a traditional approach or be right at the bleeding edge of the hobby's development.
As long as they enjoy themselves. Because if people don't come in and enjoy the hobby and find fulfilment in it, it will die.
Very true, although I'm not sure there was a need to swear about the hobby's development ;)
Oh, and I also resemble this remark.......
Quote from: Nick on June 04, 2018, 07:16:24 PM
most people in the country would describe every last man and woman of us on this forum as absolutely barking mad for spending the sums we do on tiny model trains.
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 04, 2018, 08:32:52 PM
Very true, although I'm not sure there was a need to swear about the hobby's development ;)
Oh, and I also resemble this remark.......
Quote from: Nick on June 04, 2018, 07:16:24 PM
most people in the country would describe every last man and woman of us on this forum as absolutely barking mad for spending the sums we do on tiny model trains.
I'm guessing that the spellchecker got at that and you meant "resent". Or are you actually agreeing that you're barking mad?? ???
The "bleeding" ambiguity never occurred to me. I thought there was a filter for that. Too mild, I suppose.
It's a self deprecating joke, that is indeed Nobby's point!
@Nick (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1132)
Fret not. I find it difficult to be serious about much at my point in life and it does confuse folks/get me into trouble quite often ;D
Hello everyone
I have read all your comments and realised that I was trying to run before I could walk. It was if I wanted instant model railway up and running with no effort.
I decided earlier that I would go down the dcc route so next it seemed the right to do would be to start with a very simple setup on dcc. temporarily forgetting all about electrically operated points and the like. This would allow me to gain experience.
next what about a controller? One that would do all for the moment but would also do points etc later. The one I thought about was the gaugemaster Advance prodigy 2, which as it stands will not operate the points but would do so later when I am ready with addition of o extra power supply.
Any thoughts anybody
Regards
Gordon
Quote from: GordonW on June 12, 2018, 08:37:37 AM
...next what about a [DCC] controller? One that would do all for the moment but would also do points etc later. The one I thought about was the gaugemaster Advance prodigy 2, which as it stands will not operate the points but would do so later when I am ready with addition of o extra power supply.
Hi Gordon, this is a question for which you'll always get different answers based on people's own experience and preferences. There are different designs/style of interface: for example do you like a physical controller with knobs and buttons, or do you like the idea of control via touchscreen phone/tablet? Definitely try and get to a shop or a show stand with a trader who has different systems set up to try.
Personally I prefer knobs and buttons so would suggest the NCE PowerCab, as a starting point. It's a good starter system with many users and has been around long enough to be "proven". It will operate accessory decoders for points. Later on you can move up to a more powerful NCE system and use the PowerCab as a second throttle on that system. That's what I do: we use the PowerCab for my lad's small HOe narrow gauge line, and hook it into my 10 amp PowerPro system for my garden line.
Quote from: GordonW on June 12, 2018, 08:37:37 AM
I have read all your comments and realised that I was trying to run before I could walk. It was if I wanted instant model railway up and running with no effort.
I did wonder... The one indispensable ingredient in building a model railway yourself is effort. The quantities needed should not be underestimated! ;D Commitment is another biggie.
You really need someone with experience of various different controllers. If I was looking as you are, I think I'd be considering the Prodigy Advance, the NCE Powercab (which I seem to see in exhibitions a lot) or the Digitrax Zephyr Extra (which I like the look of because it actually has knobs to twiddle! :D)
But I don't have practical experience of any of them.
Quote from: GordonW on June 12, 2018, 08:37:37 AM
next what about a controller? One that would do all for the moment but would also do points etc later. The one I thought about was the gaugemaster Advance prodigy 2, which as it stands will not operate the points but would do so later when I am ready with addition of o extra power supply.
I went for a Prodigy Express, good value at £124 from Hattons when I bought it last year.
Pete