BR (ex-LNER) Steam Locos in Operation 1955-68 & the N Gauge Models

[martyn]

I didn't add the SR and LMS version of the J67 (look at the position of the safety valves) as the body has another modification; the dome is moved further back than the GER/LNER version.

The J67/69 class was a real nightmare to work out, as there were many variations of both classes.

I don't really know, but thought the BHE J39 may have been the former D+M one?

Martyn

Later; it appears from the BHE catalogue that most of the former D+M range is now part of BHE, though some are listed as unavailable and others are missing.

[msr]

I thought D&M were taken over by Invictascene in the early in 1970s who in turn were taken over by BH Enterprises.

[icairns]

Note that BHE do a Belpaire and round top boiler D16/3; technically, from PMs to a Forum member I've done on research today, the Belpaire version is incorrect with the style of footplate supplied in the kit.

Martyn 

Hi, @martyn:
 
I am not an expert in these GER engines (in fact I know very little about them).  But I have a question regarding the above.

According to the BHE price list dated 21 December 2021 (relevant page attached as a pdf file), BHE offer the following two kits:
 
-   S24 Holden D15 "Claude Hamilton" 4-4-0

-   S24a Gresley D16/3 rebuilt "Claude Hamilton" 4-4-0

I believe that the D15 prototype had a Belpaire firebox and the D16/3 had a round top boiler.  Is this correct? 
I did not include the D15 kit on my list as they had all been withdrawn by 1952.

Are you saying that BHE do two D16/3 variants with a Belpaire firebox and a round top boiler? 
Or is the Belpaire the D15 and the round top boiler a D16/3?

Sorry in my ignorance astounds you.  I just want to get my list correct.

Thanks. 
Ian

[martyn]

@icairns

Hello Ian,

It's an error on my part for not looking at their product list first.

The D16/3 is more or less correct,  allowing for it being overscale to fit the chassis, and a couple of correctable errors. The D16/3 all had round top boilers, but with two patterns of footplating. The BHE version has the raised straight topped version applied new to some of the rebuilds. The other version of the real rebuilds had the round topped boiler but retained the original footplate and decorative valance. The pattern of footplate depended upon which sub class of D15 or D16 the loco was, before rebuilding. D16/3 could be rebuilt from D15/1, D15/2, or D16/2.

What I had thought of as a second style of D16/3 offered, but in fact offered as the D15, has a Belpaire firebox. This is correct for D15, but the kit (at least the one I bought) has the straight new style raised footplate of the D16/3. The D15s, and there were two sub classes, all had the original GER style footplate, but some had the decorative valance removed, leaving a 'wavy' footplate.

Summary: the D16/3 kit is accurate, within limits, for some of the class.

In my thinking, the D15 version has errors, and I admit I could be wrong on that.

The History of the 'Clauds' is rather complicated, and I think I've now got it right, but I accept I might gave made mistakes in interpreting the RCTS History of the class.

Note, and it is a very common mistake, the class are Claud, not Claude, Hamilton.

Now try understanding the J67 and J69 classes and the variations....

[icairns]

@martyn
Hi, martyn:

Thanks for your very prompt reply, it has removed my confusion.  I agree that it can be extremely confusing when a loco class has had many rebuilds and/or many variants.

Ian

[Alcazar]

Here's the D&M J39 - built many moons ago and sourced, I think, from W & H models.



Peter

[Alcazar]

Checked through the list but could not find the Graham Hughes J6. Atso-Cad also have a Y5 on Shapeways. I think there may be a few more LNER locos from him, but maybe no on general sale, e.g. C1 and C2 Atlantics as well as a D49.

Peter

[icairns]

Checked through the list but could not find the Graham Hughes J6. Atso-Cad also have a Y5 on Shapeways. I think there may be a few more LNER locos from him, but maybe no on general sale, e.g. C1 and C2 Atlantics as well as a D49.

Peter

The Graham Hughes J6 kit is missing from my list.  However, since preparing the list, I noticed that the 2/21 issue of the NGS Journal includes an article about refurbishing "what is believed to be a Graham Hughes J6 kit".  I will include the Graham Hughes kit on the next revision.

The Atso-Cad Y5 3D print was omitted from the list as the last example was withdrawn in 1948 and, therefore, outside the timeline of my list (1955-68).

The current Atso-Cad (Steve Da Costa) listing of LNER locos on Shapeways is as follows: K3, N2, C12, Y5, V1, and V3.  I know at one time he also made available for sale a Thompson L1 (because I have one) but this model has now been withdrawn from sale.

But you are correct that, at one time, Steve did do special orders / commissions.  I went through his loco thread on the NGF (all 65 pages of it!) and determined that he has made 3D prints of at least the following LNER locos (in addition to the models available on Shapeways):

A5, B2 "Sam Fay", C1 Atlantic, D2 (Ivatt), D49 Shire, D49 Hunt, K1, K2, K3/1, N1, O2, O2/1, O2/2, P2 'male chicken' (changed by forum) o' the North, J3, J6, and J52.

However, I am not sure what Steve's current position is re these models.  I have sent him a PM asking for the status and will advise if I learn anything of interest.

Ian   

[martyn]

Thanks for the update, Ian.

I'd like to get one of Steve's L1s; I have the chassis ready and waiting......

Martyn

[icairns]

I bought one of Steve's / Atso-Cad's L1 prints when it first came out.  Unfortunately, I painted it what was described as "dirty loco black" which turned out to be more of a washed out grey.  I was never very happy with it as it looked out of place when next to locos in BR black.

Then Steve announced that he was going to issue an upgraded version of the L1 3D print. I decided to buy one but, before it came to market, Steve announced that he was not going to add any more models to his Shapeways shop.  Worse, the original L1 print was withdrawn from sale!

I then tried stripping the dirty black paint from my model.  However, despite using several different techniques, the paint essentially refused to to be stripped.  I then decided my only option was to paint over the model which is what I did. 

A photo of my L1 number 67733 is shown below on the left, along with another Atso-Cad 3D print, an LNER V1.



The L1 body is mounted on a modified Graham Farish Ivatt 2MT chassis and the V1 is mounted on a modified GF SE&CR N Class chassis.

Ian

[martyn]

I had seen Steve's L1 on the Forum, and found the 2MT chassis on ebay. Then just as funds allowed me to order the body from Shapeways, it disappeared. One that got away...I've seen photos of thebrighton 's L1 from Bill Bedford and I'm mightily impressed.

The V1/V3 is less of a need for me as it disappeared from East Anglia in the very early 50s. Also, and I'm still looking, I haven't found a reasonably priced SR N.

Martyn

[Alcazar]

I forgot the 1955 bit!

Still, I'd be interested if anyone has bought the Recreation21 G5 from Shapeways. I bought an M7 some time ago as a possible donor for the Worsley Works C13, but the wheel spacing is wrong. If the print quality is OK, I might try it.

Peter

[icairns]

Yes, I have bought the LNER G5 3D print from Shapeways.  As far as 3D prints go, I think it is of good quality.  See my print below.



Simon Dawson (Recreation21 / Rue-D'Etropal) is a talented and prolific 3D print designer.  He offers an eclectic range of models and I have purchased several. 

One of the "problems" is that Simon appears to make his 3D prints exactly to scale(!).  While this may seem a good idea, it means that finding a suitable chassis for a loco can be challenging.

For example, when I purchased the LNER G5 0-4-4 loco print from Recreation21, I was hoping I could fit it to a Dapol (first generation) M7 0-4-4 chassis.  Unfortunately, the print would not fit due to the internal width between the loco splashers being too narrow. 

The following measurements give an idea of the issue:

-   Dapol M7 outside driving wheel to outside driving wheel = 11.9mm

-   Dapol M7 outside driving wheel crank pin to outside driving wheel crankpin = 13.3mm

-   Recreation21 LNER G5 internal width between driving wheel splashers = 10.4mm

I was originally hoping to use a Dapol second generation M7 chassis (when it is issued) for my LNER G5 but now I am not sure what to do.  The 3D print remains on my workbench but I am not sure if I can modify the internal splasher width very easily.

Many of the original white-metal kit manufacturers (and many of the current 3D print producers) started with a chassis in mind and tweaked a few dimensions to ensure that the kit fitted a proprietary chassis. 

Unfortunately, I don't believe that Simon Dawson does this. 

(I posted the above information on another thread a while back - apologies for any duplication).

However, I have successfully motorized a couple of his 3D prints (with some difficulty).  By coincidence, and to show that I am an optimist at heart, just this morning I ordered the LNER A5 and Q6 3D prints from Recreation21.  This is partly because I am starting to run out of projects and am looking for something to do.

Ian

[BlythStationLad]

I too bought this G5 body print (I need at least 3 G5s for my layout). As you say, unfortunately no allowance has been made for the over-scale width of proprietary chassis (not that I was keen to use the existing Dapol M7 chassis anyway as it's horrendous).

I am awaiting the new M7 chassis which looks light years away from the current version, but I suspect it will not be possible to combine the new chassis with the 3D print. In the meantime I am working (well, he's doing all the design work and I've provided the body and drawings) with a fellow 2mm Association member to see if he can come up with a solution involving a new chassis that can utilise N Gauge wheelsets, but that's on the back burner at present.

The same designer has a J27 and tender available, covering all variants. This again is dead scale but exactly to 2mm (1:152) scale, not the slightly bigger N Gauge scale (1:148). 2mm Association standards are greater than scale on wheel tread width and flange thickness and thus even 2mm wheels will not fit! If the J27 was produced to N Gauge (1:148) perhaps 2mm Association wheels would fit but not N Gauge ones - no use to those of us in N. 

[icairns]

I am looking to issue an updated loco/model list in the near future.  I have quite a lot of new information.

However, I need help with a couple of questions.

First question.

I had seen Steve's L1 on the Forum, and found the 2MT chassis on ebay. Then just as funds allowed me to order the body from Shapeways, it disappeared. One that got away...I've seen photos of thebrighton 's L1 from Bill Bedford and I'm mightily impressed.
Martyn

Hi, @martyn: Can you clarify your post?  I think thebrighton's L1 was an SR L1.  Are you saying that Bill Bedford produced a model of an LNER Thompson L1?  If so, presumably this was an etched kit?  I know that, in addition to Atso-Cad, ABS/Beaver produced a white metal kit for an L1 (and an L3) although the moulds for these models have now gone missing.  I searched the NGF for references to the Bill Bedford model but drew a blank.  Any further information?

Second Question.

I have a note that says that GEM produced a J39 white metal kit but I do not have any back up that substantiates my note.  I know that GEM produced a D11 kit but did they also produce a J39?  Is there any evidence to support this or is my note wrong?

Thanks,

Ian