I have been to a model shop today (kid in a candy store or what?) and was told the best brand for Loco was Dapol and that I should use Gaugemaster Grey Granite Track Underlay as I intend to use Peco Concrete Code 55 Track. As I am a novice and want to spend my money wisely I thought it best to ask for some opinions, before parting with my hard earned! I know opinions will differ but I would value your expert advice.
Q1) who makes the best quality Loco's?
Q2) what is the best underlay to use?
Q3) what would be my best option for buying a DCC controller? (Not too expensive but reasonable quality)
Q4) what power supply?
Q5) who is the best DCC chip manufacturer?
Q6) Best magazine subscription for N Gauge?
Q7) any other useful opinions?
Thanks in advance, Ian. :dunce:
You'll probably get as many different answers as responses to most of these.
Dapol and Farish are the only mainstream manufacturers of British locos (Union Mills produce small numbers of steam locos). If you look through here you will find good and bad reports of both, basically you can get lucky or not with either. Some of the older Farish locos aren't very realistic, and some aren't too easy to fit a decoder too, but if you stick with the ones marked "6 DCC" on the Farish website you shouldn't go too far wrong. All current Dapol products are pretty good models and I think all are DCC-ready.
Most people don't use underlay but buy ballast loose and glue it down by one of several methods. I personally use the Gaugemaster underlay (or the Noch which is basically the same thing) as I think it gives a reasonable impression of the ballast "shoulder" found on a modern main line but it is less good for sidings. You will also seem mention of Kato Unitrack which comes with a plastic "ballast" base - again some people like this and others don't. Probably best to stay away from the Peco foam underlay as it disintegrates after a few years.
For DCC command stations, power supplies and decoders it is best to consult someone who stocks a wide range and if possible try several to see what suits you. DCC Supplies is reasonably local to you I think. I personally think Zimo are the best decoders as they give excellent motor control and they have four functions so it is possible with some minor mods to wiring to control head and tail lights independently. However they are more expensive than the likes of TCS and Digitrax, and I think the cheapest 6-pin decoder is Bachmann's, and many but not all find these work well enough for them.
Joining the N Gauge Society is a good idea - they do a journal every couple of months, a range of easy-to-build wagon kits and a mail-order service for items that are hard to get elsewhere. The commercial mags have some N gauge content but are mostly 00, and I tend to just browse in Smiths and buy a particular issue if there is something of interest (and layouts of other gauges can be interesting too). For me that's mainly Model Rail or Railway Modeller.
Thanks edwin_m. I have applied to Join the N Gauge Society I am just waiting for my membership pack etc. :thumbsup:
I would second everything Edwin has said. I would recommend testing locos at the shop if possible and running them in carefully and following instructions regarding oiling. If you do get one that is a bad runner it is best to return it to the retailer for a replacement.
It pays dividends to ensure your track work is as near perfect as you can get it, although all the rolling stock is quite tolerant of minor track imperfections badly laid track causes endless frustration.
The N Gauge Society membership pack includes a very useful guide to the basics of modelling in N.
Keep an eye out for N'spirations magazine at exhibitions and on eBay, it's a very useful and informative specialist N gauge magazine. The publisher is a member of this forum and there will be an announcement when the next issue is available.
And most of all ask lots of questions on this forum, there is a wealth of knowledge and encouragement here.
Regards
Veronica.
:NGaugeForum:
Not much more to be said that hasn't already been mention really.
With your DCC controller I would look towards a system that can be added too/upgraded as the size of your layout grows and funds allow. Some systems you would have to replace the complete package, others give you the lot including things you may not really want.
The only thing I would add to what's been said is when it comes to buying compare prices with your local modelling shop to the big online shops.
You're are about to spend a lot of money on track and power so don't just listen to the local shop. For example when I first started I went along to my local and was told I needed this and this etc. etc., the Gaugemaster controller that I walked out with I later found about £25 cheaper and some of the points were considerable cheaper from the big online dealers. I'm not saying don't support your local shop because you will need them.
You could ask your local shop before you place a large order about price matching or discounts.
Hi Ian,
This may help you, as we ran it for a bit of fun but also to help people decide what to spend their hard earned dosh on.
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=10143.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=10143.0)
I'm assuming that you want to model British prototypes, but if you're feeling adventurous why not try European, American or Japanese trains ? I model US and UK trains and I find the US locos far superior to the UK locos, also the quality of some of the German makes like Fleischmann and Arnold are amazing. Kato and Tomix are the Japanese equivalents and run beautifully !
Of course you could go with 'RULE 1' (It's my railway and i'll run what i like !)
Not going for the hard sell here, just suggesting other directions - as you've got what i'd call a 'blank canvas'. I wish I could start fresh, but i've invested too much money now to start again...!
Thanks for the link newportnobby it's nice to see different opinions.
I did think about going USA 4x2 as I like the look of some of their loco's but I don't really know anything about their railroads.
It could still go either way though at this stage. As someone said earlier, "decisions decisions".
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:
Quote from: justintime on December 31, 2012, 11:44:47 AM
Thanks for the link newportnobby it's nice to see different opinions.
I did think about going USA 4x2 as I like the look of some of their loco's but I don't really know anything about their railroads.
It could still go either way though at this stage. As someone said earlier, "decisions decisions".
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:
If you are still considering US locos then it has to be Kato all the way :heart2: :claphappy: :laugh3: :heart2:
Atlas as a second choice, Bachmann as a last gasp although some of the Bachmann locos are OK it is a bit hit and miss with them.
cheers John.
Just a reminder that UK N gauge is 1:148, Japanese is 1:150 (bullet trains are 1:160), US and continental is 1:160.
I echo Scotsoft's comment about Kato locos. I've not got any US Kato but do have continental and bullet trains some of which have been bought second hand. I think they are terrific runners.
One of the many things that I have learned from this forum is that bargains can be had from overseas if you are considering continental or Japanese. If you are looking for wire, lights, tools, then search this forum first as our members can point you to where the best places to buy are.
I no longer buy modelling magazines (except N'Inspriations) as I found a lot of stuff gets repeated and there is very little post-privatization stuff (which is where my interest lies) I can also get the help I need from this forum :thumbsup: and one or two blogs. I find the 'big' railway magazines such as Modern Railways to be more useful.
Quote from: justintime on December 31, 2012, 11:44:47 AM
Thanks for the link newportnobby it's nice to see different opinions.
I did think about going USA 4x2 as I like the look of some of their loco's but I don't really know anything about their railroads.
It could still go either way though at this stage. As someone said earlier, "decisions decisions".
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:
Best thing to do is pick up a copy of 'Model railroader' and 'Trains' (WHSmith sell them) and have a read... :read:
My layout, although slightly British looking it's fairly generic so i can run what i like - if you're unsure that could be a way to go...
Well I have taken the plunge now and ordered my first loco. It's a Dapol N Class 73/0 73005 DCC Ready. Not the most spectacular but perfect for testing my new track when it's laid.
At £44.99 I couldn't really turn it down! I have decided to stick with BR and choose what I like rather than stick tight to one era for now.
Anything from 1960 to present day as long as it looks nice. I know it's not to everyone's cup of tea but it'll do me for the time being.
I need to get a 6 pin decoder for the Class 73/0, can anyone suggest my best option? :thankyousign:
TCS or Digitrax would be my choice - both are 6 pin decoders. In my opinion it's best to avoid the cheapest decoders as their reliability can be a bit iffy...
Make sure you run in the 73 for a long time on DC before you fit the decoders, the Dapol 73's take a long time to quieten down and smooth out.
Thanks 4x2, I thought there may be a reason why it was so cheap.
What is the best way to run it in; is there a set way of doing these things?
Quote from: justintime on January 01, 2013, 10:51:30 AM
Thanks 4x2, I thought there may be a reason why it was so cheap.
What is the best way to run it in; is there a set way of doing these things?
Ideally all locos need to be well run in
using DC before you put decoders in. Different makers have different ways. When the loco arrives the Dapol instructions will guide you.
There's a forum member who used to be a Farish worker (name escapes me) who said that its best if the loco running in "learns" both left and right curves.
The ideal running in track is a small figure of eight on which you run the loco both ways, forward & reverse, starting with slow running and over about an hour building up to near full. I use a small oval for my test track (Kato - easy to put up/pack away) for my locos on which I'll turn the loco around and run it in "twice".
Others will have different, but just as effective ways.
My method is to run in as per the instructions, then leave running for 2 hours in each direction. Make sure it has plenty of good lube oil, don't flood it - just enough to keep the gears wet. Gaugemasters basic lube will be fine, as are most other lubes that don't attack plastic.
Hi Ian,
Most would say they run their locos in on DC for a total of one hour (Dapols seem to take a little longer to quieten down). Some run it for ½ hour each way. I run it for a 1/4 hour each way then turn the loco round and repeat. It saves the driver getting too giddy :-X
Thank you for the guidance Jack, much appreciated.
Happy New Year to everyone too. :beers:
I am busy surfing for my code 55 track and came across a couple of things I didn't quite understand. :dunce:
Can anyone tell me what is the difference between electrofrog and Insulfrog points? Also what is a Right/Left Hand Catch Point?
A catch point protects the mainline from runaways on a siding by derailing errant vehicles before they foul the mainline and cause a collision.
Electrofrog points have a metal frog, the crossing part. which provide for better running but are a little more complicated to wire up.
Insulfrog points have a plastic (dead frog) which are easier to wire up but may cause loco's to stall at slow speed.
Hope that helps!
Happy new year.
Mark
Nice one Mark, thank you.
Quote from: justintime on January 01, 2013, 03:21:59 PM
I am busy surfing for my code 55 track and came across a couple of things I didn't quite understand. :dunce:
Can anyone tell me what is the difference between electrofrog and Insulfrog points? Also what is a Right/Left Hand Catch Point?
Have a look here Justin for a detailed description.....
http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.htm#Points (http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.htm#Points)
In fact the whole website is a mine of useful information...... :thumbsup:
:beers:........Ste
As you are going down the DCC route you would be better getting electrofrog points. They also look better in my opinion.
They can work out of the box but you need to use Insulated rail joiners (IRJ's) on the frog, the 'v'. http://www.ehattons.com/7604/Peco_Products_SL_311_Insulated_Rail_Joiners_Fishplates_for_N_009_gauge_12_per_pack_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/7604/Peco_Products_SL_311_Insulated_Rail_Joiners_Fishplates_for_N_009_gauge_12_per_pack_/StockDetail.aspx)
(If you didn't know worth noting that you will need to buy seperate rail joiner, they don't come fitted to the points.)
What a cracking link Ste, thank you. I think I should learn a lot from reading through it. :beers:
Thank you Jack, very helpful information again. Must say, you chaps on here are so helpful :thumbsup:
The Bachmann cheap chip is too long to fit a Dapol 73, so as above tcs or Digitrax dz125in
Paul
Can anyone recommend a supplier of the tcs or Digitrax dz125in, thanks.
I use http://www.dccsupplies.com/ (http://www.dccsupplies.com/) and find their service and price to be very good. No connection apart from being a satisfied customer.
Marty
Quote from: Donkey on January 01, 2013, 05:49:31 PM
I use http://www.dccsupplies.com/ (http://www.dccsupplies.com/) and find their service and price to be very good. No connection apart from being a satisfied customer.
Marty
Same here !
All my decoders and my DCC system came from Digitrains (http://www.digitrains.co.uk) - their impartial advice is invaluable. In fact, if you can get over there (Digby, Lincolnshire) they will happily let you try out all the systems on their test-track to see what system you prefer without steering you towards the most expensive. Only proviso is you arrange your visit in advance just so they can accommodate you :thumbsup:
Paul
Oops your link is wrong Sprintex, I think you meant to post this one http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ (http://www.digitrains.co.uk/) Another very good firm that I have dealt with before.
Marty
It's right now ;)
Paul
Thank you for the advice chaps. I live quite a way from Lincolnshire but it would be well worth the day out when it comes to buying my DCC System especially if I can see them working.
Whilst Im shopping, what wire do I need to power points, Track etc etc? :hmmm:
It was worth the 2 hour drive for me. They first asked me a series of questions like layout size, number of trains, etc for power requirements and also what I wanted out of it now and maybe in the future - sound, computer-control, etc? Also what price bracket was I looking at. They then showed me the various systems available for the criteria and let me have a 15-20 min play with them one at a time while they served other customers, then came back and gave me a different one to play with, all very relaxed. When I went there I was half-set on the Lenz 90 Set, after a couple of hours it was between the NCE Powercab and the Prodigy Advance2 - I came away with the Prodigy system purely on personal preference of the display and hand-throttle, but most of all I came away knowing I had made the right choice for ME and my money wwas spent wisely :thumbsup:
Minimum 16/0.2 wire if you intend to use solenoid point motors (Peco, Seep, etc), same really for track droppers. The main DCC bus something much bigger, household mains cable is usually quite cheap and about the right size ;)
Paul
Thanks Paul,
"The main DCC bus" is that a - & + circuit I should run around the underside of the baseboard like a ring main to take feeds from as and where I need them?
That's pretty much it yes. A 'ring' is not the ideal analogy though as it's best in DCC to have it radiating out from the controller rather than in a circle, otherwise you get echoes of the same signal arriving at different times.
As an example here's half of my layout:-
(http://www.sprintexnet.co.uk/Images/res%20120304%20South%20Board%20wiring%201.PNG)
The red/black wires are the DCC bus, as you can see it comes from the edge-connector where the control-panel cables plug in (bottom-left section, top-left corner) and loops down then up roughly following the path of the tracks above. It curves all the way round the end and down the other side, where it loops back on itself and finally ends in a little choc-block (white plastic thing with screw terminals). The same thing goes on the other half. The little red squares on the main DCC bus are where the droppers are attached with Scotchlok connectors - this is another one of those areas where everyone has their own preference be it soldering connections, using choc-blocks, but I chose these as they are perfectly adequate, quick and easy to attach and can be bought in large bags from online retailers such as Rapid Electronics.
Paul
Brilliant, thanks Paul.
Quote from: justintime on January 01, 2013, 06:36:22 PM
Thanks Paul,
"The main DCC bus" is that a - & + circuit I should run around the underside of the baseboard like a ring main to take feeds from as and where I need them?
Your learning!
Brian Lamert web site mentioned earlier by Dock Shunter, can be a bit daunting, I brought the book, it was a bit easier, I could read, think and go back to the subject as and when; easier. :)
While you're out at the model shop ask if they have the Peco booklets. There are two on basic wiring and another which is an introduction to DCC. I can't remember the price now but some are 50p each, others are £1 each. The Peco series give good basic, beginners advice on the subjects they cover.
Quote from: scruff on January 01, 2013, 04:04:09 PM
A catch point protects the mainline from runaways on a siding by derailing errant vehicles before they foul the mainline and cause a collision.
That is a trap point. A catch point looks similar but was provided on gradients to derail any portion of a train that became divided and rolled back down the hill. For the last twentysomething years all trains have had automatic brakes and catch points are no longer used but trap points still are.
One of the jargon traps (sorry) many people fall into, even on the real railway, but the two terms have been officially different since at least the 1950s.
Quote from: Jack9465 on January 01, 2013, 06:54:51 PM
While you're out at the model shop ask if they have the Peco booklets. There are two on basic wiring and another which is an introduction to DCC. I can't remember the price now but some are 50p each, others are £1 each. The Peco series give good basic, beginners advice on the subjects they cover.
Thanks Jack, ordered these the other day as they were so cheap I thought I may as well have them to hand. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Sprintex on January 01, 2013, 06:51:16 PM
That's pretty much it yes. A 'ring' is not the ideal analogy though as it's best in DCC to have it radiating out from the controller rather than in a circle, otherwise you get echoes of the same signal arriving at different times.
That is basically a myth. The signal propogates so fast it's irrelevant. And fortunate it is a myth because all those oval layouts wouldn't work otherwise.
Alan
Hi Alan, Are you saying I will be safe just making a kind of oval +/- ring main to take my feeds from?
Quote from: justintime on January 01, 2013, 08:59:35 PM
Hi Alan, Are you saying I will be safe just making a kind of oval +/- ring main to take my feeds from?
If you want to yes - for anything but a huge layout it really makes no difference. If you think about it an oval layout with a single feed is exactly the same thing.
If you are building some giant mega-layout the way some of the US model clubs do then other aspects of the cabling become a concern and you do have to start worrying about echo, ringing and the like but not on the kind of layout most of us build !
The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't HAVE to be a ring, as many people seem to think it does. It is quite acceptable to have the DCC-bus come to an end so long as the two wires cannot come into contact with each other :thumbsup:
Paul
Thanks Chaps.
I was thinking of getting some cheap twin & earth which is Max. Rating: 240V, 16.5A. Will that do or is it over kill/underkill? Cheers, Ian.
I used twin and earth for my layout and it works a treat. I stripped the outer (grey) insulation off and used the blue and brown covered wires for my dcc bus, as a ring and used the earth wire as a common return for my point motors. Hope this helps.
Marty
Thanks Marty, I think I will be doing the same. Cheers, Ian.
You are most welcome Ian. I didn't have a clue about these things until I found this wonderful forum :dunce: :D
Marty
I know that feeling very well Marty, I defenitely feel like a :dunce:
Did you use the 1.5mm twin & earth or the 2.5mm?
Quote from: justintime on January 01, 2013, 09:25:17 PM
Thanks Chaps.
I was thinking of getting some cheap twin & earth which is Max. Rating: 240V, 16.5A. Will that do or is it over kill/underkill? Cheers, Ian.
Total overkill but its cheap and works well so being overkill isn't a problem!
What would be the ideal capacity EtchedPixels?
DCC is 12-22v or so at whatever your system can output max - so usually 5A or less.
So you want anything thats rated for the voltage (plus a bit - say 24v) and sufficient power. Low resistance is good.
I use cheap speaker wire but there is nothing wrong with using cable over the rating if it is cheaper (and it often is because of the volume produced)
Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 02, 2013, 11:29:17 AM
DCC is 12-22v or so at whatever your system can output max - so usually 5A or less.
Sorry I have to disagree with that.
The current rating of a cable is based on how much it can carry without getting too hot. However with DCC voltage drop is a much more important issue, since if there is too much voltage drop a short circuit won't cut the power but will just stay there heating up.
If you have a 5 amp system then the power being dissipated near your short could be as much as 75 watts - think of how hot an old-fashioned lightbulb gets and what that amount of heat could do to your stock or track. Due to wiring errors on my part I melted a Dapol Voyager that way, fortunately not too much of a loss as it was a rotten runner anyway!
Normally the DCC bus needs to be made of cable with a much higher current rating than your DCC system maximum current - possible exceptions are for very small layouts or if circuit breakers are fitted to reduce the maximum current. And it is essential to check that a short circuit anywhere on the layout cuts the power immediately, usually done by putting a coin across the rails. Droppers can be much thinner provided they are kept short.
Cable voltage rating isn't significant for DCC systems (well it might be if you found some cable rated at less than 20 volts...).
The mains cable rated at 15 amps should be OK for most layouts, but lighting cable at 5 amps probably isn't. Bear in mind also that twin+earth is single core wire so should only be used in places where it won't be moved around after installation, otherwise the core can break. Flying leads for portable layouts need to be made with multi-strand cable.
Quote from: justintime on January 02, 2013, 11:06:31 AM
I know that feeling very well Marty, I defenitely feel like a :dunce:
Did you use the 1.5mm twin & earth or the 2.5mm?
I used the 2.5 and as I say, it works a treat :). Good luck with it Ian :thumbsup:
Marty
Quote from: edwin_m on January 02, 2013, 01:29:15 PM
The current rating of a cable is based on how much it can carry without getting too hot. However with DCC voltage drop is a much more important issue, since if there is too much voltage drop a short circuit won't cut the power but will just stay there heating up.
The current rating is based upon how much heat it can take at its top rated voltage (RMS for AC). 240v at 5A is a lot more than 75W.
Voltage drop matters but its not so much the wiring as the risk of damage to bits of the loco which have fine wires and are easily damaged. Thats why the coin test is useful (check a coin across the rails at the various distant points trips the short circuit protection)
Alan
Thank you. I have just purchased 7.5mtrs of 4 core 1.5mm which has a maximum rating of 240 volts = 16.5 Amps. Thats 3 lots of 7.5Mtr wires for under a tenner. They should do the job for the "ring main" shouldn't they?
I have also picked up some 16/.02 black and red for my feeds to points track etc. Hope I have done the right thing? :hmmm: Cheers, Ian.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 02, 2013, 04:31:30 PM
The current rating is based upon how much heat it can take at its top rated voltage (RMS for AC). 240v at 5A is a lot more than 75W.
See here for a description of current rating. It doesn't depend on rated voltage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampacity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampacity)