Identifying RTR Wagons

CarriageShed · February 10, 2014, 09:48:04 PM

Let's play a little game - identify the RTR wagon (mainly because although I've matched up a few Farish and Peco wagons to their historical counterparts, I'm struggling with others). I'd like to renumber incorrect wagons and also multiple wagons that bear the same number. I'd also like to make sure that what I'm using is correct for my chosen period, so I've been carrying out some research and filling in at least a few gaps.

For instance:

Graham Farish LMS 12T 5 Plank Open Wagon, No 345699, diagram unknown, built between 1928-1959. One alternative number is 304719:

Peco SR 10T 5 Plank Wagon No 5095 Diagram 1380, built unknown (on the right of the photo). One alternative number is 9509 (really?):

But this one has me stumped. Every single example of an LMS wagon I've seen online has a different panel arrangement and different doors.

Graham Farish 12T Twin-Vent Van No 7126, diagram unknown, built unknown, alternative numbers unknown:

Any ideas, chaps and chapesses?

NeilMac · February 11, 2014, 12:44:04 PM

Quote from: Pete33 on February 10, 2014, 09:48:04 PM
But this one has me stumped. Every single example of an LMS wagon I've seen online has a different panel arrangement and different doors.

Graham Farish 12T Twin-Vent Van No 7126, diagram unknown, built unknown, alternative numbers unknown:

Any ideas, chaps and chapesses?

I've got one of those, which came with BR, Western region numbering:-

As well as the diagonals, another unusual feature is the differing widths of the planking. When I researched this model at the time I bought it, I couldn't make up my mind whether it was based on GWR or SR design, so I left the Western numbering, but changed the roof (not very successfully) to try to replicate the 'domed' appearance of the examples I had seen.

In any case, I don't think it was an LMS design, but I could be wrong...

Cheers,
Neil

CarriageShed · February 11, 2014, 01:03:17 PM

Hi Neil

That's a good point about the uneven planking. I know that the SR were very hot on that (I can't say about the others), so maybe we should be checking SR diagrams for its origin. It might also explain why I can't find any LMS information on it.

I even have an example of the same model in SR livery, which also matches your BR version:

NeilMac · February 11, 2014, 01:43:14 PM

Pete

It's also interesting to compare this model with more recent offerings.

Here it is flanked by a BachFar meat van and a Peco Banana van:-

Note the height difference, which I remember being quite correct when I did my original research.

Neil

Zunnan · February 11, 2014, 06:36:41 PM

!ts a Southern design...actually earlier, I can find this design dating back to at least 1919 (diagram 1426) so LBSC or LSWR or one of the other pre grouping railways which became the Southern. The roof is hopelessly wrong mind you, but the 2+2 planking and brace isn't too bad a representation.

Thing is though, they were also built for the other railways during WWII and certainly carried GWR and LMS liveries, probably NE branded too for the LNER and later carried their subsequent regional prefixes rather than being returned to the Southern region. I believe the LMS had them designated as diagram 2078, and most were built in 1944. I'm not sure where the numbering begins for them, 523340 is the lowest that I know of and they stretched into the 523400+ range.

CarriageShed · February 11, 2014, 09:36:47 PM

Quote from: Zunnan on February 11, 2014, 06:36:41 PM
!ts a Southern design...actually earlier, I can find this design dating back to at least 1919 (diagram 1426) so LBSC or LSWR or one of the other pre grouping railways which became the Southern. The roof is hopelessly wrong mind you, but the 2+2 planking and brace isn't too bad a representation.

Thing is though, they were also built for the other railways during WWII and certainly carried GWR and LMS liveries, probably NE branded too for the LNER and later carried their subsequent regional prefixes rather than being returned to the Southern region. I believe the LMS had them designated as diagram 2078, and most were built in 1944. I'm not sure where the numbering begins for them, 523340 is the lowest that I know of and they stretched into the 523400+ range.

You're right, it is a Southern design. Apart from the roof, this is essentially the van:

http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/wagons/44611.html

This one was built in 1931, to Diagram 1429, so perhaps the Farish flat roof version is a later diagram. I knew it wasn't an ex-LSWR design (the Illustrated History of Southern Wagons: LSWR & S&DJR is the only volume I do have), although some of the chassis parts were LSWR, added by the SR. It was based on an earlier SECR diagram, and you can see slight differences between the SR version and the SECR version:

http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/15750.html

If the design was 'inherited' by the LMS and others after the war then it's too late for me (I'm modelling 1930). I'm going to have to replace my LMS twin-vent vans with something else - probably kit-based to an earlier, more readily identifiable LMS diagram.

Diagram 2078 for the LMS version seems correct. It's mentioned on another forum too.

PLD · February 11, 2014, 09:54:31 PM

Those wagons belong to a past era when manufacturers could churn out a generic wagon in many liveries and we were grateful because there wasn't anything better...

The closed van in the OP as stated does most closely match the SR design built for all the big 4 in the early part of WW2 but the roof is the wrong shape and the chassis is the generic one-size-fits-all type. the open is an approximation of a 1910s/20s RCH type more appropriate for Private Owner liveries than the Big 4 colours it was also produced in.

The Peco van (pictured above in BR Banana van guise) is a passable GWR mink, but the cattle wagon is nowhere near any known type. Probably the closest is the Midland design but it is two feet short for that!

BernardTPM · February 11, 2014, 10:15:48 PM

Quote from: Pete33 on February 10, 2014, 09:48:04 PM
For instance:
Graham Farish LMS 12T 5 Plank Open Wagon, No 345699, diagram unknown, built between 1928-1959. One alternative number is 304719:

That is actually a Peco 5 plank - the Poole Farish 5 plank had angled end corners and was based on an SR design. http://www.pwdnet.co.uk/ebay2/images/318x225_EB2_GrahamFarish2002_Wagon_SKU4012-72.jpg The door is very wide on the Farish model, but from it's pattern it may actually be based on an SR Shock open. If you take 2mm out of the door width it looks better. The SR Shock opens were very slightly taller than the BR Shock Opens, so this can make an interesting slightly different wagon - too late for 1930 period though.
The Peco 5 plank is fairly typical of the earlier patterns of 17' 6" 5 planks where the angled strapping on the sides doesn't go below the floor level. The nearest LMS diagram would be D1667, but the wheelbase should be 9 foot (but longer over headstocks than the Peco 9 ft wb chassis). Also the door catch/pins should be mounted one plank higher. There was a similar one on a wood chassis D1666. These were built from 1923-30, so the right period and currently the nearest you're likely to get.

CarriageShed · February 12, 2014, 02:01:15 PM

Quote from: PLD on February 11, 2014, 09:54:31 PM
Those wagons belong to a past era when manufacturers could churn out a generic wagon in many liveries and we were grateful because there wasn't anything better...

The closed van in the OP as stated does most closely match the SR design built for all the big 4 in the early part of WW2 but the roof is the wrong shape and the chassis is the generic one-size-fits-all type. the open is an approximation of a 1910s/20s RCH type more appropriate for Private Owner liveries than the Big 4 colours it was also produced in.

The Peco van (pictured above in BR Banana van guise) is a passable GWR mink, but the cattle wagon is nowhere near any known type. Probably the closest is the Midland design but it is two feet short for that!

I can see me replacing all the Farish twin-vent vans with kits, assuming they're available. The inaccuracy of the roof profile is especially noticeable.

The cattle wagon I'm not so sure of. It resembles (without matching) several LSWR diagrams, so I might just live with it. I haven't researched SR cattle wagon diagrams yet, so I'm not sure which of them might match it the best.

CarriageShed · February 12, 2014, 02:12:56 PM

Quote from: BernardTPM on February 11, 2014, 10:15:48 PM
That is actually a Peco 5 plank - the Poole Farish 5 plank had angled end corners and was based on an SR design. http://www.pwdnet.co.uk/ebay2/images/318x225_EB2_GrahamFarish2002_Wagon_SKU4012-72.jpg The door is very wide on the Farish model, but from it's pattern it may actually be based on an SR Shock open. If you take 2mm out of the door width it looks better. The SR Shock opens were very slightly taller than the BR Shock Opens, so this can make an interesting slightly different wagon - too late for 1930 period though.
The Peco 5 plank is fairly typical of the earlier patterns of 17' 6" 5 planks where the angled strapping on the sides doesn't go below the floor level. The nearest LMS diagram would be D1667, but the wheelbase should be 9 foot (but longer over headstocks than the Peco 9 ft wb chassis). Also the door catch/pins should be mounted one plank higher. There was a similar one on a wood chassis D1666. These were built from 1923-30, so the right period and currently the nearest you're likely to get.

Thanks for the information, Bernard. Of course you're right. It's a Peco wagon. I misread my own datasheet.

Cambrian Models seems to match it up pretty closely to its own steel-framed 5-plank here:
http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/lmswagons.html
using Diagram 1667 as you said, so I think I'd be happy to take that and use these wagons without changing them. I'm nowhere near the stage at which I can chop-and-shop wagons. Considering the fact that replacing the covered vans is going to be higher on the list of priorities, I'll be happy to run these for a few years before thinking about kit replacements.

CarriageShed · February 12, 2014, 09:34:39 PM

The Peco banana van appears to match SR Insulated Van Diagram 1477:

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/parkside-sr-dia-1477-insulated-van.1832/

CarriageShed · February 12, 2014, 09:49:37 PM

The SR milk tanker here is Diagram 3157, but I've seen drawings of the Diagram 3155 milk tanker of 1932 that seem to match up to the Dapol 6-wheel milk van:

http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/4430.html

CarriageShed · February 12, 2014, 10:39:45 PM

Finally for tonight, the Dapol gunpowder van matches ex-LSWR Diagram 1701 of 1912, when a small batch were built. The three roof struts helps to give it away. The lettering is all wrong for its claimed SR period, though.

BernardTPM · February 12, 2014, 10:50:08 PM

The Peco Banana/insulated van almost matches vans used by the LNER, LMS & SR. Here's the LMS Banana van http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/570027.HTML - earlier examples to D1660 didn't have the diagonal strapping when built, though there is an extra grille/vent on the end and heavy bumpers for the doors. The Refrigerated (later Insulated) vans to D1672 had the same body (without the end vents) but with roof hatches for ice and a ladder at one end. Both the SR and LMS vans featured the small angled supports at each end however in both cases the planking was vertical, like the sides (the SR had a Banana version too D1478). The LNER had very similar Refrigerated and Banana vans and with the horizontally planked ends, however they had two grille/vents each end and wooden or later angle iron supports that went right to the roof. The Peco van is a kind of amalgam of all these vans but not entirely any one of them.

BernardTPM · February 12, 2014, 10:56:02 PM

Bit of an oddball one for you: http://i.ebayimg.com/t/N-GAUGE-GRAHAM-FARISH-N-E-FISH-VAN-/00/s/MTAzMVgxNjAw/z/Hc0AAOxy5jxSa-t0/$T2eC16V,!w0FIZ0germHBS,-t0EMMQ~~60_35.JPG The Farish fish van is a GNR design. there's an illustration of one in the old Tatlow LNER Wagons book with the alternative number 414124.