How bad, really, are Dapol and Farish

[Roy L S]

A solution to the problem of overheating motors is simply better specced motors. How much this would add to the cost of each loco is another question though.

Farish are now using coreless motors on their new steam locos (which is going to cost me a new controller, as coreless motors don't like feedback controllers). Whether they are good quality motors or cheap and nasty, only time will tell. But I haven't heard of one failing yet.

One other side effect of small batch production (which possibly no-one cares about except me) is that it has pretty much killed off loco body kits. No point in designing and producing a kit to fit, say, a Farish Fairburn tank chassis: by the time you've got the kit to market the locos will be sold out and who knows when the next batch will be made?

It would be rather fun to design and make a simple but well-engineered 'generic' 0-6-0 chassis, 8' + 8'6" wheelbase with 4'9" drivers.  That near enough covers an awful lot of tank and tender engines.  Then offer a range of bodies, either cast or 3D printed. Might appeal to people who enjoy building models but don't have the time or skills to scratchbuild.  Maybe if the coupling thing works I'll look into that as the next project...

Hi Belstone

Although I am not unhappy that it is happening in most ways, I have often thought that the loss of "generic" old style Farish chassis will in time kill the loco kit market in British N so an enterprise such as you are suggesting has a lot of merit in my view.

I guess what will make or break such a project would be (1) supply of components and (2) cost.

If a chassis kit is proposed, how would it be constructed? (Etch, cast, combination or other for chassis block - poss 3D prints?) and where could suitable wheels be sourced from - this appears always to have been a big stumbling block to the idea previously on cost grounds.

I look forward to seeing more on this in due course, and would such a product interest me? In a word yes!

Regards

Roy

[Dr Al]

Perhaps a similar method should be used to reward assemblers of these locos. If they were paid on a scale which reduced as the percentage of failures increased then they may be more minded to assemble the models correctly. I suppose though, that they get paid peanuts and the cost of implementing such a change would be too great. I can't see where their incentive to get it right comes from.

That would simply cost us more - they'd have to initiate some for of tracing who did what on each loco so blame could be assigned - a lot more administration and therefore cost I'd have thought.

Better to design out the ability to construct things wrongly as much as possible. But errors will always happen - we're only human, right 

Cheers,
Alan

[Karhedron]

Better to design out the ability to construct things wrongly as much as possible. But errors will always happen - we're only human, right 

Well, most of us.

You are right though. The real potential of "design clever" is not so much make things cheaper as to make things better and more reliable without necessarily increasing costs. The evolution of design of Dapol's steam locos over the last 5 years shows this principle in progress although I think there is still a way to go.

in 2010, most of the complaints about steam locos focussed on things like wheels losing quartering or valve gear jamming. I have not heard these complaints since Dapol introduced squared axels or Farish went back to loco drive. This shows things are getting better. Complaints now seem to focus on electrics with either soldering problems or motor overheating being the main problems.

Motors are bought in so I suspect Dapol need to look at their supply chain in this regard. I am not sure what the solution to soldering issues is. I have not heard any complaints about the new coreless motors Farish are using so the future may lie in that direction.

[DesertHound]

What were the coloured dots / blobs on Poole chassis for? Were they to denote the "builder", or was it to denote the QC checker?

A lot of my paint dots / blobs are disappearing, since when I service the loco and bathe the chassis, or wipe it down with IPA, it tends to come off. Oh yes, I only bathe it after stripping it down, not the everything still attached to it!

Dan

[austinbob]

So, with that in mind, how do you tackle these QC issues? (Genuine question).

With better design.

A good example was the loss of quartering on early Dapol steam locos. This was a significant problem and people have even written articles about how to correct it. The solution was for Dapol to design squared axels and sockets on the wheels so that they could not slip out of quartering.

A solution to the problem of overheating motors is simply better specced motors. How much this would add to the cost of each loco is another question though.

Karhedron

Good point! I was looking at it from QC issues arising during the assembly process, but you are quite right, design of the actual product is another angle to look at it from.

So, we could say there are QC issues which arise from design (both design of the product and materials used - think split gears), and also from assembly (think poor pick-ups). I'm sure there's someone on here who could write an essay on this kind of thing. Any management consultants on here?

Dan

OK Dan
You asked for an essay so here it is!!!

I was a Quality Management consultant for many years and also a Quality Manager in an electro-mechanical design and production environment.
A number of people on here have made some very good points on QC, design, production etc. Here is my take on all this.

The aim of any manufacturer is (or should be) to provide products which are fit for purpose and reliable. It is not acceptable for any product not to work to specification out of the box.
In order to achieve products which are fit for purpose there a number of critical steps in the design, production and Quality Assurance processes (this does NOT mean Quality control).

The Design Process
This is absolutely critical in ensuring the product is fit for purpose. Systems should be in place to ensure that the correct design is produced. This includes: Designing to a defined specification; Designing for reliability; Designing for serviceability (if this is part of the specification); Selecting suitable components; Designing for easy, consistent and fault free production; Designing to a product cost; Designing to minimise inspection and test requirements at all stages of production; Providing suitable assembly instructions, test instructions (if required) and assembly aids (jigs and fixtures etc.)

The Production Process
The production process ensures that the product is assembled as per the requirements of the design output above. Also the production staff must be suitably trained to do the work. There should be a system for logging problems, faults etc. during production so that suitable action can be taken to prevent faulty products being shipped. For example; feeding back information to design department for design changes, carrying out additional inspection and test. inspection and test costs cash so problems should be resolved as quickly as possible.

Quality Assurance and Quality Control
There has been a lot of talk about Quality Control issues in this thread but no mention of Quality Assurance. Quality assurance is about making sure that the design and production systems and procedures ensure that the product will be produced right first time without any unnecessary inspection or test. Quality Control is about checking things are correct after they have been done to check for faults.

Quality Assurance focuses on preventing problems occurring – it costs money to do this.

Quality Control focuses on finding and fixing problems after they have occurred – in general it costs much more money to do this. Just think about the scrapped assemblies and finished products. Think about the extra test, inspection and re-work in the factory. Think about the cost of warranty returns - repairs, more scrap, more time, more effort. I get the feeling sometimes that the Manufacturers do not look to fixing problems but rely on the Customer to find them!

I am sure there must be room for Dapol, Farish and others to look further at their systems in order to make sure the products 'do what they say on the box' without increasing costs substantially.
In any event I would rather pay a little bit more knowing my new loco is definitely going to work properly than constantly have to return locos for repair or replacement or to suffer little niggles about pickups not working, motor noise and other problems.

RANT OVER

Bob Austin

[DesertHound]

Excellent post, IMHO, Bob! Didn't really see it as a rant, but rather a well informed perspective on the issue from someone who has a better idea than most of us.

Perhaps you should send something similar to the manufacturers, stating your qualifications. What you say makes complete sense to me, but of course I know these things are not necessarily as simple as they seem on paper. That said, am I correct in thinking that Kato (Japanese stock) is on another planed quality wise?

I'm going to venture into Kato track I think, just to set up a tail-chaser loop around some wall skirting / shelving. I might even venture into buying a Kato model (one of those suburban passenger train thingys), just to see how good they are.

Anyway, thread drift ... excellent take on the issue Bob!

Dan

[austinbob]

Excellent post, IMHO, Bob! Didn't really see it as a rant, but rather a well informed perspective on the issue from someone who has a better idea than most of us.

Perhaps you should send something similar to the manufacturers, stating your qualifications. What you say makes complete sense to me, but of course I know these things are not necessarily as simple as they seem on paper. That said, am I correct in thinking that Kato (Japanese stock) is on another planed quality wise?

I'm going to venture into Kato track I think, just to set up a tail-chaser loop around some wall skirting / shelving. I might even venture into buying a Kato model (one of those suburban passenger train thingys), just to see how good they are.

Anyway, thread drift ... excellent take on the issue Bob!

Dan

Hi Dan

I might just do what you suggest. Do you think Dapol and Farish would take any notice. I think a number of Forum members have contacted them at various times, often without even the courtesy of a reply.

I don't have any personal experience of Kato and I don't really follow posts about Kato in general. However it does seem that they get very few bad posts and a lot of rave reviews.

Bob Austin

[Karhedron]

Quality Assurance focuses on preventing problems occurring – it costs money to do this.
...
I get the feeling sometimes that the Manufacturers do not look to fixing problems but rely on the Customer to find them!

I think you are right on both points. If the 5% figure I quoted earlier is accurate they may have calculated that it is cheaper to over-order by 5% and simply replace the duds than to engage in systematic quality improvement.

Of course this fails to take into account intangibles such as customer satisfaction and manufacturer reputation.

[austinbob]

Of course this fails to take into account intangibles such as customer satisfaction and manufacturer reputation.

Interesting point Karhedron

I wonder if the Manufacturers ever do customer satisfaction surveys or even retailer satisfaction surveys? I wonder if they would take any action as a result of such surveys?

Bob Austin

[belstone]

If a chassis kit is proposed, how would it be constructed? (Etch, cast, combination or other for chassis block - poss 3D prints?) and where could suitable wheels be sourced from - this appears always to have been a big stumbling block to the idea previously on cost grounds.

I look forward to seeing more on this in due course, and would such a product interest me? In a word yes!

Regards

Roy

Thought you might be interested, Roy.  At the moment I'm just at the 'imagining' stage, but my thinking so far is:

Etched side frames with a 3D printed spacer block between them, locating pegs on the block to keep it all square.

Small 5 pole motor, with 2 stage gearing. The tricky bit here is to come up with a motor installation that won't poke out into the cab on 0-6-0 tender engines. Ideally I want the motor in the firebox to leave plenty of room to add weight in the boiler. And if the worm gear isn't visible under the boiler (unlike the Farish chassis), even better.  I can't find a 12V motor small enough to mount between the frames - maybe a worm on a vertical shaft in front of the centre axle, driven off a 90 degree bevel gear? Endfloat would have to be controlled very accurately.

Wheels. Ah, wheels. The biggest single stumbling block for anyone thinking of doing something like this. No question of having them made, the cost and quality issues would be horrendous. The only possible solution would be go to an RTR manufacturer that doesn't change its chassis designs every ten minutes and has a good spares service, perhaps Fleischmann. 

Chassis would have to be supplied ready-assembled due to the need to set wheel quartering and back to back accurately. Dead easy with a purpose-made tool, very tricky indeed for the home assembler.

Pickups - I have a plan for this that is so cunning I'm surprised no-one has done it before. That might be because it won't work, but I don't see why not at the moment.

I had a quick flick through Mike Sharman's 'Wheel Standards for the Modeller' last night and there must be at least a hundred 0-6-0s and 0-6-2s that have wheels between 4'6" and 5'0", and I reckon most of them have a wheelbase around 16 - 17 feet.  Question is what wheelbase and spacing would suit the greatest number of applications. Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

I can't see myself getting round to this one for a while - I'm struggling to work out how to do the artwork for the coupling etches at the moment. But maybe one day...

[Dr Al]

If the 5% figure I quoted earlier is accurate they may have calculated that it is cheaper to over-order by 5% and simply replace the duds than to engage in systematic quality improvement

I don't know if this is true for Dapol, but Bachmann used to simply do production runs of 1008. Presumably some expected failures were built into this number however.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

What were the coloured dots / blobs on Poole chassis for? Were they to denote the "builder", or was it to denote the QC checker?

I don't think they were, I've read somewhere why this was, but can't recall.

All Farish Poole models were test run before leaving the factory I believe. This presumably must have weeded out the absolute worst examples. Though I'm sure plenty of imperfect models must have also got through and made it into the wild. I know though that the few Poole models I bought brand new when they were still being produced ran correctly from the box. Admittedly quite a few soon got split gears, but when leaving the factory they were certainly fine.

This kind of testing of each individual model certainly doesn't happen nowadays.

Cheers,
Alan

[DesertHound]

 Bob

They might just take some notice with your background, but we wouldn't know unless you write to them I guess. It's not really for me to push, as I don't really buy much new stuff, so only you guys who buy it know if such a letter is warranted.

I would put forward the points, backed up by your industry experience, building in your personal experiences (and maybe those of others). I would keep it factual and objective - remember we talked about "one person being happy doesn't mean another person is happy with the same product" - but things like locos not working properly out if the box are pretty objective, or "black and white" in my view.

Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Dan

[Dr Al]

Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Personally, I can't help think Bachmann (and others no doubt) must be bored of customers telling them how to run their business. Sure, there may be good ideas, but I suspect there's a lot we don't know about the industry, and they do.

We should also consider how much in the way of improvements there have been over the years - and whilst there's still room for improvement, N has seen a complete revolution in the models available!

Cheers,
Alan

[austinbob]

Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Personally, I can't help think Bachmann (and others no doubt) must be bored of customers telling them how to run their business. Sure, there may be good ideas, but I suspect there's a lot we don't know about the industry, and they do.

We should also consider how much in the way of improvements there have been over the years - and whilst there's still room for improvement, N has seen a complete revolution in the models available!

Cheers,
Alan

Alan on reflection I think you are probably right about trying to tell Manufacturers how to run their affairs and I won't be writing to them.

However, even if there have been improvements in N gauge over the years it does not alter the notion that when you buy a new product it should work properly. No ifs or buts.. it should just work.

If you bought a new television and the sound had a hum in the background you wouldn't accept it. If you bought a toaster and it stopped toasting after the first slice you wouldn't accept it. You send the stuff back for replacement or money back and may not use the same suppliers again.

So why are we so forgiving about N gauge locos? Many people cannot or don't want to fiddle around with something to get it to work properly - and why should they have to. Bear in mind that if you do fiddle around with stuff then you are invalidating the warranty. So, even if you have the technical ability to dismantle and reassemble locos you are risking the outcome of having a piece of junk if your efforts are unsuccessful.

Bob Austin