Reversing

[TheEdge]

A leading loco can only be at the front of the train, and a trailing loco can only be at the rear of the train. And how do you know which way round it is if it's a diesel? 

Paul

Double cab locomotives have a number 1 end (front) and a number 2 end which declares which way round they are.

On a 'Crompton' number one end was where the radiators are, of course you only needed to know that for equipment i.d. purposes or fault and failure procedures etc, doesn't matter which way round a diesel is from an operating point of view really, although from what I remember it helped if you were working it from the end where the hotplate was just inside the engine room door so your secondman could put the kettle on! 

I'm too modern for that, the only one I know is class 90s where the pantograph is at the number 2 end...

[Jimbo]

In the steam era does anyone think the weather conditions were taken into consideration? For example, if a route always had the wind blowing in a certain direction it may make life easier for a steam loco to run tender/bunker first so smoke was immediately blown off the chimney without travelling down the loco and affecting vision. The number of tunnels on a route may also have affected decisions
N.B. The above does not involve express passenger/parcels traffic.

I shouldn't think you'd want to be travelling bunker first in freezing weather or heavy rain but if operational restrictions required it you had no choice I suppose, i.e. no turntables nearby or a triangle for turning the loco.



1. Loco leading, pulling the train....most common way of working.

2. Loco leading, pushing in reverse.....I presume you mean the loco is on the back of the train and pushing, possible with t.c. stock for instance known as push/pull working where there is a 'remote' cab at the opposite end of the train to the loco and the loco being controlled from that 'remote' cab either via electrical or mechanical connection (depending on type of loco and stock). Another example is a G.W.R. tank engine and autocoach.

3. Loco trailing, pulling......I can only presume you mean it's a steam loco travelling backwards (Bunker first) but pulling the train from the leading end. (But not if the train crew could help it!!)

4. Loco trailing, pushing.......I presume you mean a steam loco facing the 'right' way round but pushing the train backwards which only usually happens when shoving back into a siding known as propelling.

[Sprintex]

A leading loco can only be at the front of the train, and a trailing loco can only be at the rear of the train. And how do you know which way round it is if it's a diesel? 

Paul

Double cab locomotives have a number 1 end (front) and a number 2 end which declares which way round they are.

On a 'Crompton' number one end was where the radiators are, of course you only needed to know that for equipment i.d. purposes or fault and failure procedures etc, doesn't matter which way round a diesel is from an operating point of view really, although from what I remember it helped if you were working it from the end where the hotplate was just inside the engine room door so your secondman could put the kettle on! 

I'm too modern for that, the only one I know is class 90s where the pantograph is at the number 2 end...

Still makes no difference which way round it is unless it's something like a Class 20 


Paul

[dannyboy]

I have been following this thread with interest and all the talk of leading/trailing, pushing/pulling, bunker first etc., has brought me to one conclusion - my head hurts 

[PLD]

In the steam era does anyone think the weather conditions were taken into consideration? For example, if a route always had the wind blowing in a certain direction it may make life easier for a steam loco to run tender/bunker first so smoke was immediately blown off the chimney without travelling down the loco and affecting vision. The number of tunnels on a route may also have affected decisions
N.B. The above does not involve express passenger/parcels traffic.

Not sure about a prevailing wind being taken into account and with regard to a tunnel, assuming a return trip over the same route without turning the loco, you would be chimney leading one way and cab leading the other... 

What certainly was taken into account was any steep gradients - ideally you want the chimney at the uphill end, though rather than for visibility, this was so that the firebox was at the downhill end and would not be exposed when all the water in the boiler flowed to the downhill end...

[Jimbo]

 

I have been following this thread with interest and all the talk of leading/trailing, pushing/pulling, bunker first etc., has brought me to one conclusion - my head hurts 

[Jimbo]

Apologies PeteW, I forgot to try and answer the other part of your question.....is there something clever that you can do with a shunter and sidings that lets the main loco get to the front again?........there is a track layout called a run round loop where there are two tracks running parallel but converge into just one at the end so the loco will pull the train into either one of the parallel tracks, stop and uncouple from the train, run into the single piece of track after they converge then you change the points so the loco can run back alongside the train down the other track to the other end of the train where there's another set of points to change then the loco couples back up to the train again and pulls it out in the opposite direction, hope this helps! 

[PeteW]

Sorry the confusion guys. I knew when I was writing that post that words didn't do a good job. But unless I'm just not using the right terminology it has been extremely difficult to find suitable pictures. However, a chap called Gram has a 2mm modelling blog and I hope he doesn't mind me borrowing his pics.

Consider this picture:

If the train is moving left-to-right, that's what I called case 1 (leading and pulling). If it is moving right-to-left, that's what I called case 2.

Then this picture:

If it's moving right to left, that's case 3 (trailing and pulling). And if moving left-to-right, case 4.

Leading and trailing simply refer to the position of the loco in relation to the wagons/coaches, while pushing/pulling refer to the force applied by the loco. Of course, I realise now that a loco at the back and pulling is, in fact, 'leading'. Sorry again

Anyway, my point was that I guess in both of the above pictures, having the loco 'pull' is the preferred operation.

Jimbo (thank you, sir) has explained how to move the loco from one position to the other via a run around loop. Otherwise I guess you need a dedicated shunting engine and some kind of shunting yard to extricate the loco from being blocked in.

[Jimbo]

No problem, i'm pleased my ramblings made a little bit of sense!......no, quite shocked actually!  ......the loco in the pictures is a class 08 or 09 diesel loco specifically designed for shunting purposes within the confines of a yard where the track layout incorporates a shunting 'neck' which is the equivalent of the single bit of track in the run round loop I described but the difference being instead of the two parallel tracks you've got multiple dead end sidings that wagons are 'sorted' into by the loco pulling the train into the 'neck' then pushing the wagons into one siding, stopping and the person called the shunter unhooks a predetermined number of wagons (leaving them there) then the loco pulls the remaining wagons back into the 'neck' the shunter person then changes another set of points for the loco to then push it's wagons into another siding and so on until the whole original train is 'sorted' into a predetermined order or a particular dead end siding for a particular purpose i.e. coal wagons into a coal siding or cattle wagons into a cattle dock siding etc etc.
With this type of loco, because it's only short, it doesn't matter which way round it's facing as the visibility for the driver to see the shunters' hand signals in the yard is still ok, in fact there is a small 'platform' fixed to the loco at the 'nose' end for the shunter to ride on with grab rails while possibly giving hand signals as well.

[weave]

Hi,

I've probably got this totally wrong, mainly because I model European and have seen too many American films with trains in, but I thought the cab end was the front end (for diesels) so the photos are the wrong way round.

I will stand in the corner for the rest of the lesson when shot down in flames.

Cheers weave 

[railsquid]

However, a loco running in reverse doesn't make as pretty a picture - and certainly in the days steam was in service, many photographers did not waste valuable exposures on these. Certainly locos running 'backwards' on mainline were less common - and very rare on express services. Simply, there are less surviving photos of locos running this way.

There are quite a lot of videos on Youtube with footage from the steam era, which give a much better impression of operations than photos alone, though even then a lot of scenes are very short (and focus mainly on the locomotive and not what they're hauling).

[PeteW]

I've probably got this totally wrong, mainly because I model European and have seen too many American films with trains in, but I thought the cab end was the front end (for diesels) so the photos are the wrong way round.

I think many (most? all?) American diesels are designed to run in both directions, and I think the later British diesels are too - which is entirely sensible. But since my interest is sort of British 1950s (just at the transition from steam to diesel) most the engines that interest me are definitely 'directional' with the cab at the rear. Which is what prompted this thread, and the ensuing confusion!

My problem stems from having no background knowledge about railways and when I started looking at trackplans aimed at beginners and/or small spaces I'm finding a lot of single-track spurs and sidings that simply run into a dead end, with no facility for extricating the loco. I now have a great appreciation of the need for a run around loop, and/or a couple of shunting sidings. How to squeeze them into a small layout is now the question.

[JayM481]

Hi,

I've probably got this totally wrong, mainly because I model European and have seen too many American films with trains in, but I thought the cab end was the front end (for diesels) so the photos are the wrong way round.

I will stand in the corner for the rest of the lesson when shot down in flames.

Cheers weave 

Whether an American (or Canadian) diesel ran cab forward or long hood forward depended on the road and era. For example, Canadian National ran long hood forward from the transition era to, I think, the late '60s. It was a combination holdover from steam crews who were used to a boiler in front, and the idea that in a collision with anything it's better to have the cab as far back as possible. The controls in the cab would be configured for that style of operation.

Sorry for the little sidebar.

[Bealman]

Even with DC a terminating road without a loop (a bay platform, for example) is easy to facilitate. A switchable isolating section near the stops will allow the station pilot or shunter to couple on the end of the train and move it (to the carriage sidings, say). This will allow the original loco to be released when the section is re-energised.

With DCC the isolating section is not even required.

[colpatben]

Then of course to confuse all kettle fans there is Cab Forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_forward

There was even a UK prototype.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Leader_class. One for the scratch builders