Identifying RTR Wagons

Zunnan · February 15, 2014, 11:38:08 AM

If I recall, NGK18 builds diagram 1664/1676 (planked end, vent or non vent...I think) of 1924-28 vintage, and fairly closely based on the Midland diagram 633 10T vans that preceded them if you make a few modifications. The other van in the kit builds a diagram 1814 van of around 1928-32, notable by the horizontal planking, but remove the vertical braces these were internally braced. If you add diagonal bracing to the horizontal planked van at either end you'll have a diagram 1897, of the mid '30s. Also, if you combine the vert planked sides with the pressed steel ends of the two vans, and add in the required wrap around onto the ends you can also build diagram 1832 also of around the 1930 period. Or horizontal plank sides, steel ends and vert planked door for a diagram 1891. These kits really can be kitbashed around!

NGK003 builds a Midland railway diagram 360-2 10T van as far as I can tell.

E Pinniger · February 15, 2014, 04:13:19 PM

I'd also disagree with a general statement that old RTR wagons aren't worth bothering with compared to kits; certainly there are some (like the Farish pseudo-SR van) which don't accurately resemble any real prototype, and others (such as the Farish ex-NSR open and GNR fish van, and possibly Peco's Butterley steel open) which are rare/obscure prototypes that weren't often seen in service, there are plenty which are at least passable representations of common prototypes, especially after repainting + weathering, and unlike kits can often be picked up cheaply second-hand. This is the main reason I thought a list of RTR wagon IDs would be handy.

Two other Peco wagons I haven't identified yet are:
- 15' tube/pipe wagon. I can't find a match for this in any of my photos or drawings of BR designs (the double side doors are the main difference).
- 15' open wagon with tarpaulin frame. Again I don't have any photos or plans matching this, the angled brackets and door style are rather reminiscent of SR designs (and SR livery seems to be the commonest for this model).

I'm mainly interested in IDing older RTR models from the 1980s and earlier, not current Bachmann Farish + Dapol products, most of which are more or less accurate models of specific prototypes (even if they sometimes appear in non-historic liveries)

Reference books I've been using (along with the Internet) are British Railways Wagons (D. Rowland), Historic Wagon Drawings (F.J. Roche), Rolling Stock Worth Modelling vol. 1 and 2, and The 4mm Wagon vol. 1 and 2.

BernardTPM · February 15, 2014, 04:36:42 PM

Quote from: E Pinniger on February 15, 2014, 04:13:19 PM
Two other Peco wagons I haven't identified yet are:
- 15' tube/pipe wagon. I can't find a match for this in any of my photos or drawings of BR designs (the double side doors are the main difference).
- 15' open wagon with tarpaulin frame. Again I don't have any photos or plans matching this, the angled brackets and door style are rather reminiscent of SR designs (and SR livery seems to be the commonest for this model).

These are both BR Ferry wagons. Unfortunately the Ferry Tube (dia. 1/449 1959) is much shorter than it should be, so much so that it's probably not worth bothering with. It might be feasible to rebuild a Chivers BR Tube wagon using the detail strapping sliced off the Peco body to replace/rework the three centre panels. Hard though that might be its probably easier than trying to splice two Peco bodies together!
The high open is a Southern Region Ferry Open diagram 1/055 built 1957. This is much closer to the prototype, just a few mm over length. I can't see Farish or Dapol rushing to make a better one though! In the 1980s the GWS ran a couple of these in GW livery on Speedlink services to supply their Didcot centre with coal, something for the 'Prototype for Everything' album. Being ferry wagons they were dual braked. Some did get the Railfreight red/grey livery with the TOPS code OJX - Peco do make it in red/grey but with an OBA TOPS code. Paul Bartlett has a good selection of photos of them here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryopen

E Pinniger · February 15, 2014, 05:07:58 PM

Quote from: BernardTPM on February 15, 2014, 04:36:42 PM
These are both BR Ferry wagons. Unfortunately the Ferry Tube (dia. 1/449 1959) is much shorter than it should be, so much so that it's probably not worth bothering with. It might be feasible to rebuild a Chivers BR Tube wagon using the detail strapping sliced off the Peco body to replace the three centre panels. Hard though that might be its probably easier than trying to splice two Peco bodies together!
The high open is a Southern Region Ferry Open diagram 1/055 built 1957. This is much closer to the prototype, just a few mm over length. I can't see Farish or Dapol rushing to make a better one though! In the 1980s the GWS ran a couple of these in GW livery on Speedlink services to supply their Didcot centre with coal, something for the 'Prototype for Everything' album. Being ferry wagons they were dual braked. Some did get the Railfreight red/grey livery with the TOPS code OJX - Peco do make it in red/grey but with an OBA TOPS code. Paul Bartlett has a good selection of photos of them here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryopen

Thanks very much for the info! I'll add this to my list (which I'll get round to posting in a day or two once I've edited the info to a more readable format).

Does the tarpaulin/high open wagon have any basis in a pre-nationalisation SR design, or is this just another case of RTR manufacturers being creative with their choice of livery? And were they ever fitted with tarpaulin frames as on the Peco model? (shouldn't be hard to remove if not, given that the wagons will need repainting in BR livery in any case)

(edit) Regarding the Peco Butterley wagon, according to this document - http://www.jthjth.plus.com/freight/16t%20steel%20mineral%20wagons.pdf - it is a one-off prototype 14t mineral wagon built by Butterley in 1940. Not sure why Peco picked this for their model rather than a production design

but IMO it looks similar enough to many of the numerous pre-BR steel open wagon designs that I wouldn't have any problem with running multiple examples on my layout!

BernardTPM · February 15, 2014, 05:20:07 PM

The Ferry Open does have Southern features, notably the side hinged top flaps. When originally released (late '60s) the model did have a tarpaulin bar and was in BR(SR) ferry livery.

CarriageShed · February 17, 2014, 05:04:33 PM

I haven't had a chance to do much for the last couple of days, but the kit version of this thread can be found here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19581.0

E Pinniger · February 17, 2014, 07:10:42 PM

My question about the tarpaulin bars on the "SR" ferry wagon was referring to the prototype rather than the model (the one example I have, in SR livery, does have the bar)

Yet another wagon I haven't managed to ID is the Farish mineral/ore hopper as seen at the top of this page:
http://www.stepo.net/pages/wagons/hopper_short.html (don't have any of this wagon type myself). I think it might be a pre-nationalisation PO type but I'm not sure of the exact prototype.
The other Farish hopper (mostly in cement liveries) appears to be the BR diagram 1/273 20T hopper wagon.

BernardTPM · February 17, 2014, 08:31:15 PM

I'm afraid that's not a real wagon, but simply a Presflo without a roof, the load does the job of the roof holding it together. One to sell to the collectors!

CarriageShed · February 17, 2014, 08:34:57 PM

Quote from: E Pinniger on February 17, 2014, 07:10:42 PM
My question about the tarpaulin bars on the "SR" ferry wagon was referring to the prototype rather than the model (the one example I have, in SR livery, does have the bar)

I have a few of the SR ferry wagons too. I haven't researched them yet, but I had a feeling that they were based on a mid-1930s original. Of course I could be wrong!

BernardTPM · February 17, 2014, 08:45:09 PM

Later than that, I'm afraid. As I mentioned a few posts up, they were built in 1957 and did have tarpaulin bars when new.

CarriageShed · February 18, 2014, 05:53:54 PM

Quote from: BernardTPM on February 17, 2014, 08:45:09 PM
Later than that, I'm afraid. As I mentioned a few posts up, they were built in 1957 and did have tarpaulin bars when new.

Yes, it seems that Peco were a little too flexible with historical accuracy on this one. The SR ferry wagon shouldn't even be SR at all. If you don't have the reference books, this site backs up the information:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm

I've already weathered two of mine and made loads for three, so I'll have to keep those for 1947 operations and just hope that no rivet counters spot it. The other three can be sold.

This page adds even more info and some useful photos for BR modellers:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/ferry/britain-br-ferry-open-1.htm

E Pinniger · February 18, 2014, 09:41:52 PM

Quote from: BernardTPM on February 17, 2014, 08:31:15 PM
I'm afraid that's not a real wagon, but simply a Presflo without a roof, the load does the job of the roof holding it together. One to sell to the collectors!

Thanks for the info - I probably should have noticed that but the big board/placard on the side made it less obvious, at least in the photos! Certainly one to avoid, unless you have some spare Presflo roofs lying around...

CarriageShed · February 18, 2014, 09:51:15 PM

It's looking as though the Peco SR cattle wagon is another piece of fantasy. I might be wrong, but it seems to be based on BR Diagram 1/353, built between 1949-1954 and based on a final GWR design. So not SR (or LMS - Peco have it available for them too) at all.

BernardTPM · February 18, 2014, 10:37:00 PM

With both the Farish and Peco 1970s ranges there it was normal to offer all the types of wagon in all the company liveries even if only one was technically correct. The only real exception was brake vans - a GWR toad can't really be anything else, though Peco did manage to make BR, LNER and MR vans out of their basic body by having a ducket-less side tool for the body (and did a very dodgy SR kit version too). In a way we were lucky that between them they did three different 'normal' vans so we (almost) had correct GWR, SR & LNER types.
Incidentally, the Farish Cattle wagon is based on early LMS practice, D1661 1922-31, (wrong length though, as is the Peco) but the top of the sides was altered twice during its life so later versions are too tall with a horrible thick plank just below the roof. If you can live with the approx. 3mm length deficiency hunt out the earlier ones.

CarriageShed · February 19, 2014, 09:52:27 AM

Quote from: BernardTPM on February 18, 2014, 10:37:00 PM
With both the Farish and Peco 1970s ranges there it was normal to offer all the types of wagon in all the company liveries even if only one was technically correct. The only real exception was brake vans - a GWR toad can't really be anything else, though Peco did manage to make BR, LNER and MR vans out of their basic body by having a ducket-less side tool for the body (and did a very dodgy SR kit version too). In a way we were lucky that between them they did three different 'normal' vans so we (almost) had correct GWR, SR & LNER types.
Incidentally, the Farish Cattle wagon is based on early LMS practice, D1661 1922-31, (wrong length though, as is the Peco) but the top of the sides was altered twice during its life so later versions are too tall with a horrible thick plank just below the roof. If you can live with the approx. 3mm length deficiency hunt out the earlier ones.

I'm definitely not buying any more old wagons. I've far too many to sell already and replace with kits. The LMS cattle wagon I think I can live with, under the circumstances. I have two in LMS colours and one in SR brown, which was already scheduled to be repainted in grey. I had these down as Diagram 1840, the LMS version of the MR wagon, but D1661 works even better for me, thanks.