AyJay 2-BIL in N

[thebrighton]

I agree that from normal viewing distances it looks like a 2 BIL but for £90 before motorising I'd like it to look a lot more like one
Gareth

[Mr Sprue]

Personally for £90 I think it is absolutely disgusting! Currently I am working on masters to produce kits for next year and no way would I dream of marketing rubbish like that!

Apologies if it offends but I have thrown better rejects than that in the bin.

[Mr Sprue]

I totally agree i saw this and thought its a poorly detailed Resin body and you want £90 maybe if the quality of the moulds was increased as the photos here make me wonder if I should do one on shapeways!

After looking at various self build kits that have been produced for N it's a wonder if most of them ever get to run on rails! Hense why I have been inspired to design and produce kits that can be simply assembled like an Airfix model.

I'm not plugging myself but I am utterly amazed as to what people have got away with and the money they charge!

[Adam1701D]

I have to admit that £90 for the 2-BIL kit does seem rather pricey for what you get. All things Southern are seeing renewed popularity and the Hornby OO model keeps selling out, which tells me that this unit may well appear RTR in the near future or could be in scope for a better kit version.

Just as a comparison point, N-Train has produced a kit for the Class 313 3-Car EMU that includes bodyshells, underframes, Electra vinyls, TPM Bogies, wheels and couplings - all for £120.00. A Tomix Chassis to motorise it is another £30.00-ish. Obviously, I do declare an interest here, having co-developed this with Bob over a number of years and we have agreed to absorb most of the development costs to keep the final price reasonable.

A 3D printed BIL shell with generic window openings that could take etches or vinyls could easily be knocked up by some of the geniuses on this forum, I have no doubt. 

[EtchedPixels]

After looking at various self build kits that have been produced for N it's a wonder if most of them ever get to run on rails! Hense why I have been inspired to design and produce kits that can be simply assembled like an Airfix model.

I'm not plugging myself but I am utterly amazed as to what people have got away with and the money they charge!

We'll see how your stuff looks 

I actually think most N gauge kits are pretty good. There are a few bad un's (the legendary Blue Pullman kit for example). Some are also complicated to build because they are very accurate - its often a difficult trade off.

Some are also just old - they come from a time when the technology was not as good, what was achievable was not so great and modellers had more experience of modelling and less of shopping.

[Mr Sprue]

After looking at various self build kits that have been produced for N it's a wonder if most of them ever get to run on rails! Hense why I have been inspired to design and produce kits that can be simply assembled like an Airfix model.

I'm not plugging myself but I am utterly amazed as to what people have got away with and the money they charge!

We'll see how your stuff looks 

I actually think most N gauge kits are pretty good. There are a few bad un's (the legendary Blue Pullman kit for example). Some are also complicated to build because they are very accurate - its often a difficult trade off.

Some are also just old - they come from a time when the technology was not as good, what was achievable was not so great and modellers had more experience of modelling and less of shopping.

Hi Alan from what I have seen you are one of the few who produces kits that have had a bit of thought put into them and by this I don't mean just detail!

As for the "retro kits" yes I know who you mean and I can't believe people are still gullible to buy that rubbish.

My stuff, well I'm still working on it. I have a couple of well known people in the  field producing bits and pieces for my patterns, so yes we will no doubt judge it when it materialises. Thats of course if it passes my quality control!

But like your good self if and when I succeed I will want to sleep at night and not have a guilty conscience for selling someone something, that is clearly not worth the money as we have witnessed in this thread.

Regards
David 

[H]

Sure, it's not the greatest of mouldings but I don't suppose Ayran is ripping people off and making a bundle on each sale. No doubt if he could produce cheaper he would because he'd probably then sell more. And, of course he has very little experience of N gauge (being primarily an OO modeller and manufacturer). He also told me that there were compromises because the N gauge modellers who wanted him to produce the model (and he spoke to) wanted it quick, cheap and simple, and to be able to fit an inappropriate cheap off the shelf Japanese motor chassis.

Also all kit production materials have drawbacks; resin can be pitted and warps easily, vinyls can look flat and featureless, cast white metal can look blobby and is heavy, etched sheet metal can be difficult to bend and build, and 3D printed can be fragile and have unsightly build-up lines that are difficult to remove.

Most of our N gauge kit producers are small and can't afford huge development costs, top notch tool making and only have a small market to pitch to. Of course, there is room for improvement, there always is, and suitable diplomatic feedback would probably be a good approach to reap dividends and improvement.

H.

[Mr Sprue]

I may have sounded harsh on Ayran H but I'm sure you are well aware that RTV and resin does not cost a fortune to buy, in fact A good quality RTV costs around £23.50 for 1kg and a good resin such as Biresin G26 only costs about £37.00 for 2kg.

I would estimate to cast that 2 BIL there's about 40p of resin used if that! As for the RTV, those moulds are good for at least a 100 casts, so the maths are not hard to work out.

Hence why I feel 90 quid is a bit steep!

Whilst a part of me wants to support Ayjay models, I'm firmly standing on the side of members here getting good value for money, after all the hobby cost's enough already!

[thebrighton]

He also told me that there were compromises because the N gauge modellers who wanted him to produce the model (and he spoke to) wanted it quick, cheap and simple, and to be able to fit an inappropriate cheap off the shelf Japanese motor chassis.

Greetings,
He also told me this late on which was odd as I was in from the beginning and I was not alone in saying the complete opposite especially as Farish 101/108's aren't expensive and the chassis still fits the moulding. He probably decided to listen to those that shouted loudest. I can't see the point of compromising when there is really no need.
As for quick and simple it isn't really as despite everything being moulded on including door hinges there are no door grab handles so you'd have to add these yourself.
I have emails going back years regarding this and it was looking very promising but I get the impression that Aryan decided he'd spent enough time on it as he was announcing more and more 'N' and just went ahead and produced a sub standard kit that falls far short of the pre production examples.
Gareth

[Roy L S]

I was interested in this model for no better reason than I find these early Southern EMUs fascinating, but I have to admit that for starters the £90 price tag put me off for something without a mechanism.

I know economies of scale (expected volume sales) must be a factor in the price per unit, but personally I could not justify buying one now I have seen close up pics of the kit.  For that money (plus powered chassis to complete) I would have expected something requiring far less work to make good.

Maybe I expect too much..

Roy

[H]

I would estimate to cast that 2 BIL there's about 40p of resin used if that! As for the RTV, those moulds are good for at least a 100 casts, so the maths are not hard to work out.

I guess you understand that the final price is more than just the material cost and a mark up. No doubt he will want to cover his time in producing the master (or the cost if he paid someone to do it), and it sounds like he spend a lot of time on it from what Gareth says, the gestation period and what he said to me. Then, of course, there are the other variable costs plus packaging, promotion, tax, and so on.

But I'm certainly interested in having a gander at your new kits. Is there any info on them like subjects, prices and release dates?

He also told me this late on which was odd as I was in from the beginning and I was not alone in saying the complete opposite especially as Farish 101/108's aren't expensive and the chassis still fits the moulding. He probably decided to listen to those that shouted loudest. I can't see the point of compromising when there is really no need.
As for quick and simple it isn't really as despite everything being moulded on including door hinges there are no door grab handles so you'd have to add these yourself.
I have emails going back years regarding this and it was looking very promising but I get the impression that Aryan decided he'd spent enough time on it as he was announcing more and more 'N' and just went ahead and produced a sub standard kit that falls far short of the pre production examples.

I also said to him at an early stage about using and designing for better chassis than the Tomix stuff but he seemed to indicate that was what his customers wanted (although I was a customer). I also spoke to him well over a year ago (probably a couple) as Paul Martin was also interested (he unfortunately died some time back) and he'd chatted to me about it.

Certainly there was a rush at the end and it has resulted in missing details like handles and hinges and probably kept the price down from being even more, to satisfy those who shouted loudest. No doubt they wanted a one piece, basic, simple and cheap body moulding and I guess they wouldn't be bothered about adding missing details. However, I was expecting something better.

I'll have to have a closer look at my one when I get back from Australia (currently in the outback so little wifi access) and assess whether to build it or not.

H.

[H]

I was interested in this model for no better reason than I find these early Southern EMUs fascinating, but I have to admit that for starters the £90 price tag put me off for something without a mechanism.

I know economies of scale (expected volume sales) must be a factor in the price per unit, but personally I could not justify buying one now I have seen close up pics of the kit.  For that money (plus powered chassis to complete) I would have expected something requiring far less work to make good.

The chassis it is designed for (Tomix) is very cheap so you could actually make up the model very basically without much effort/work for not much more outlay. I have seen completed (painted and motorised versions without added details) and no doubt to many they would be acceptable as they were as good (if not better) than some N gauge models I've seen running at exhibitions (although I, and certainly Gareth, wouldn't be satisfied and they'd look poor against commercial RTR).

H.

[dodger]

to be qite honest I agree with most of the comments on the quality of this kit if I had waited a few days and read this post first, it started the day after I ordered mine, I probably would not have bothered.

At least its a 2BIL, one of my favorites, and suits my layout as would a wooden 2HAL. Now if a decent kit for the 2HAL was produced that would be nice.

Dodger

[Mr Sprue]

But I'm certainly interested in having a gander at your new kits. Is there any info on them like subjects, prices and release dates?

H.

At present H although things are pretty much in place tooling wise, a lot of work and thought has been going into a 60' chassis which will be used to base various models.

There are two kits that are on the workbench, the first of which I am planning to release middle of next year, but I'm not going to say what they are yet until I am fully satisfied everything fits and they can be produced to a good standard.

[EtchedPixels]

I would estimate to cast that 2 BIL there's about 40p of resin used if that! As for the RTV, those moulds are good for at least a 100 casts, so the maths are not hard to work out.

Hence why I feel 90 quid is a bit steep!

You've conveniently forgotten R&D, dud castings, test mouldings, packaging, instructions, bags, boxes and the big one - time.

Whilst a part of me wants to support Ayjay models, I'm firmly standing on the side of members here getting good value for money, after all the hobby cost's enough already!

There isn't a lot of money to be made in the N gauge kit business even as it is. All the money is in O and to an extent OO (due to volume).

Alan