Questions over current models

[crewearpley40]

As Steven said the pcvs could be seen in this period

https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/51063474366/in/photolist-2k7XQ5X-2m9nhk7-2kNiDUs-26TuDhJ-JmaCu6-25gqHqm-26BqCGR-JtyTo6-26UF7ym-CqVaJK-2mMWKy2-DkZx8o-2kd1rBA-25ffLsj-dwz699-2ae8hF2-2nnqD1A-aWNAeX-2bxny3C-2en6GEt-28mnHr7-2mMY7it-JatsTP-2mN19CF-2mN1a9v-2mMY7qC-5TCwAR-2mN2cvd-T91dZE-2mMSF3N-2mMWKSi-2mMWL2M-2mN1a2G-2mN1a5s-284ypCo-fFX8Qe-26CQm9g-2hd1FHe-25ebAUA-2mN2crW-j7z2fo-KS9sjm-Jm8z4T-2mFE2NR-qZAE1o-24Hqu3e-2ae8irR-2bxnxyG-a6mgf6-2iJYgrU

Courtesy jamerail


https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/49100369702

Steven clements

Flickr is often a good source



Farish did produce Steel wagons for the ravenscraig deemarsh / Llanwern coils


On the engineering issue

I have heard of bees hill and the https://www.ngaugenews.com/post/bees-hill-models-west-coast-models-n-gauge-wcml-overhead-line-maintenance-train


Ohle train which will be an interesting model


Anthony @37058   
https://youtu.be/csR3qoNWq1I


Chris

[fh47331]

Those are FFA/FGA (inner/outer) wagons. The best approximation for those is the old Farish container wagons, which are basically FFAs, and have no buffers or anything.

I need to try and trawl a few places like Flickr and see what needs doing to the old Farish wagons to make them more detailed and accurate.  I seem to think I may have a BR Wagons Drawings book somewhere, produced years ago by one of the big publishers, that had drawing and detail images of various wagons, and I suspect the FFA/FGAs would be in that.  I'll have to dig that out.

@fh47331 can you clarify which section of the WCML you're interested in? From your Transpennine comments I'm guessing around the M62 and north.

Hi Steven, I have family ties to the Manchester area, so I am currently thinking along the lines of something with a similar track layout to Stafford, but based on the WCML maybe between Crewe and Warrington.  Purely fictional of course, but with realistic operations and services.

The Revolution Trains KFA were built in Finland between 1987 and '88 so would be suitable. However, apart from MoD and a slightly different wagon used on Binliner Trains they're unlikely to be see in block rakes of the same wagon. The PCV cemflo could be seen around Warrington alongside the Farish Presflow in the early 1980s.

I'll have a look at the Revolution site on the KFAs, I seem to recall the odd single wagon in sets, and remember some of the funny coloured (purple or turquoise) PCV wagons in Speedlink services around that time.

The long awaited C=Rail FSA/FTA were built in the early 1990s to replace the FFA/FGA which by then were around 30 years old.

Looks like the FSA (outers) were delivered from early 1991 onwards, initially formed in pairs, with some FTA inners delivered from mid-1992 onwards to form a small number of triple sets.  It might therefore be prudent to stretch the timeline for wagons slightly into 1991, and it would give the ability to run two or three pairs of FTAs front or back of a train so there were some 'modern standard' vehicles.  My only concern is whether any of the intermodal wagons will be heavy enough ... although i suppose it would be feasible to put some weight low down in containers to stablise them a bit more.

Quite a lot to go at (and no doubt I've missed some). There are still some big gaps - HEA, PCA, VAA, VDA to current standards would be high on my list. a FNA in 1980s condition would also be welcome. With those done there's then an almost endless number of hoppers and chemical tankers, alongside the OTA and POA/SSA scrap wagons that have yet to be made as RTR models.

Thanks for taking the time to list those wagons types and manufacturers, thats really helpful.  I can see a number of opportunities there, maybe even the infamous North West Class 20s with pairs 'topping and tailing' on coal working to Bickershaw and the like!

I have heard of bees hill and the https://www.ngaugenews.com/post/bees-hill-models-west-coast-models-n-gauge-wcml-overhead-line-maintenance-train
Ohle train which will be an interesting model

Thanks Chris. That would be something different to run, and I'd not heard of Bees Hill at all. But the NGN article you've linked to looks very interesting. Ive not been too impressed with some of the 3D printed stuff I've seen - its good, but not quite there yet in my view.  But those OHLE vehicles look very impressive, and given they are photos which show up more of the print lines etcc, I suspect they'll be very good to the eye.  Definately needs investigating more.

I must admit i've been watching a fair bit of YouTube and trailing round Flickr just recently.  Also dug out some of my old DV and Video8 tapes from my own visits to Stafford in the late 1980s.  What memories!  One of these days I must get round to digitising them and maybe share them on YouTube too.

Richie

[crewearpley40]

Thanks the ohle train Chris says I saw at crewe and Warrington arpley


Plus a 25 or 31 hauling

2 x 20s on the haa wagons from bickershaw or under bank Quay from fiddlers ferry

Stafford. Great place mark @1977joey is your person to speak to

Freightliner farish catalogue 373450 to 37335i9

Google farish ffa wagon . Hatton maybe able to sell

I brought some there . Martyn do you have any left idlf Richie was interested pm martyn at James Street 

[crewearpley40]

Ebay

@martyn may have some.



Peco and farish produce haa wagons

Steven's list is useful
Baa wagon 373900 and 373901

[Steven B]

I need to try and trawl a few places like Flickr and see what needs doing to the old Farish wagons to make them more detailed and accurate.  I seem to think I may have a BR Wagons Drawings book somewhere, produced years ago by one of the big publishers, that had drawing and detail images of various wagons, and I suspect the FFA/FGAs would be in that.  I'll have to dig that out.

TP Models used to do a kit to convert the old Farish container flats into something closer to the actual FFA/FGA sets. From memory it had etched brass parts to fold up into the buffer beam. Someone somewhere should have photos of the conversion, instructions or even an unused kit.

The Revolution KFA runs well enough that it can be run empty without any problems. I suspect the C-Rail FSA/FTA will be the same, along with the FFA/FGA should someone make it (Farish are most likely as it's in Bachmann's OO Gauge range, but so far there's no sign of it going through the magic shrink ray).

Steven B.

[njee20]

Worsley Works do a FFA/FGA kit. I've never seen them, but most of their models are 'scratch aids' rather than kits, little concession for how to turn them into a working item.

Even just adding buffers and a buffer beam via some styrene strip to the outer wagons would be a big improvement to the Farish wagons. Note they tend to just be called 'container wagons' and were sold singly with a variety of containers, not to be confused with their 'intermodal wagons' which are actually FIA Multifret pairs. Not sure why Farish appear to be scared of TOPS codes on some wagons!

[Intercity]

There are also a variety of DMUs available, Manchester area saw 101 (Farish), 156 (Dapol), 142 (Dapol) and 150 (Farish), these are all to modern standards and believe the 142 and 150 can be found in GMPTE colors, I may need correcting on that and some of the folllowing:

142 in Provincial/Regional Railways
150 in Provincial
156 in Super Sprinter, was that considered Provincial too?

Did 153s roam the area? I don't recall seeing them up there.

An older tooling 158 is also available, not sure if it was released with Alphaline lettering though.

An HST would also go well for your area, available in Blue/Grey, Exec or Swallow (or a rag tag mix of liveries), check YouTube for coach formations, I think generally the first class was one coach, buffet was half standard and the opposite way round to later years, possibly no TGS, now that is assuming they had started running cross country in the years chosen, 1982 and later)

[Steven B]

Worsley Works do a FFA/FGA kit. I've never seen them, but most of their models are 'scratch aids' rather than kits, little concession for how to turn them into a working item.

I'd forgotten the Worsley Works scratch building aids:


Paul Cheffus has done a better job with his.

Steven B

[Steven B]

Suitable DMUs for the 1980s Greater Manchester:
Farish
Class 101 - any BR blue/Grey & Regional Railways. Move into the early 1990s and you can add Strathclyde and NSE together with some retro BR green.
Class 108 - any BR Blue/Grey

class 150 Original Provincial Light Blue (371-333)
class 150 Regional Railways (371-329 & 370-105)
class 150 GMPTE (371-336) and Regional Railways (371-328) are perhaps a little later

Class 158 wasn't introduced until Autumn 1990 so perhaps a little late. You'd need a Regional Railways or WYPTE version. The former is one of the liveries Farish we be doing when they launch the new model later this year. Alphaline was a pre-privatisation branding from the mid 1990s.

Dapol
Class 121/122 used for route learning - Blue or Blue/Grey suitable.
Class 142 GMPTE Orange/Brown (2D-142-002)
Class 142 Skipper Brown/Cream (2D-142-003)
Class 142 Early Provincial (2D-142-005)
Class 142 BR Regional Railways (ND116B) is a little later
Class 156 in Provincial/Regional Railways livery would fit nicely (ND-028A).

Class 153s weren't converted until 1991. Prior to then they were two car class 155 which would have been seen. It's possible to convert a pair of class 153s to a 155.


Revolution
Class 120 - formations & liveries to be announced. Blue/grey needed, usually 2 car but often with centre car from a different class used
Class 128 - Royal Mail Red, two-tone blue or plain blue. Plain blue ones aren't quite right for Greater Manchester in the late 1980s - need flush front and marker lights, a combination not offered in first batch.

I don't think there are any RTR EMU for the area/period. Class 303, 304 and 504 could be seen depending which side of Manchester you were on. Move towards Merseyside and you could include the class 503, 506, 507 and 508. The other classic WCML EMU from the period is the class 370 APT-P.


"Key" missing classes are 104 & 110. Class 116, 117 could be seen too.

HSTs weren't common in the North West with the exception of the route south from Manchester Piccadilly on cross-country services to the likes of Bournemouth and Plymouth. HST were also seen on services to North Wales from Euston. Choice of Blue/grey, Intercity Executive or Intercity Swallow depending on which part of the decade you're interested in.
WCML trains north of Manchester were loco hauled (class 85, 86 and 87 for most of the '80s with the class 90 coming in 1987).


Loco hauled passenger trains would generally be in the hands of classes 31, 45 and 47. 31s handled local services, often replacing 2nd generation DMUs with three or four Mk1s. Classes 45 and 47 were mainstays of Transpennine services - Mk1 BG, and non-air-con Mk2 (FK + 5xTSO). Class 37 hauled passenger trains weren't common for a few more years. Classes 33 and 50 could be seen in Piccadilly from time to time depending on the year.

There were also plenty of newspaper and parcels trains using Mk1 GUV, BG and CCT in blue or Blue/grey.

[EssexN]

Sorry to high jack this thread, I have a problem with a class 03 that is missing a screw. It appears to return the current back to the motor and is missing, I tried a small length of wire down the hole and this seemed to make the motor turn over, The diameter of this screw is about 0.5mm or the BA equivalent. If some can help to shine some light on this problem I would be well happy, I certainly do not want to pay close on £100 for a replacement model.

[crewearpley40]

I've seen hst at Liverpool https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjm2009/8179754924


Don't forget cross country, liverpool  to York, Newcastle/ scarborough, there's all sorts of variety

And the Brighton to Manchester/ Liverpool

I have photos of a combined Birmingham to Glasgow/ Edinburgh

Poole Liverpool service

The Liverpool Paignton usual 47. Or hst in.lieu


Agree with Steven..

EssexN why not place query in train surgery thread ??

Someone who can help and it will be in a more useful section

[fh47331]

Guys,
Firstly, can I say thanks for the warm welcome to the forum, and for the lists of available rolling stock that people have posted. I think a plan is formulating loosely based on the WCML perhaps a fictional location, just north of Crewe in the late 1980s. A wonderful period of locos (08, 20, 31, 37, 47s, 56s, 58s, 60s, 86s, 87s, 90s) plenty of loco-hauled passenger, first and second generation DMUs, HSTs, Speedlink was still running as were the postals, intermodal aplenty, coal, steel, aggregate. Even the thought of it peaks my interest!

I am looking at layout designs now, which will probably take a few months to nail down. I don't want to jump in and realise I've rushed things, but it gives time to save up! I am thinking to make the most of my available space, the hidden sidings will go under the layout. I have worked out I can get around a 12ft long climb out of the sidings onto the layout so that should give a gentle grade. If I do that, then I've got the potential for one or two 3000mm long sidings down there, which would allow me to recreate the long RMC stone working that used to come out of Peak Forest to the West Midlands with a pair of Class 37/5s, perhaps slight diverted due to engineering work! Not sure how many wagons they loaded to, but with that length of siding I should get 27 plus a pair of 37s.

Any way, plenty of aspirations and thoughts. So thanks to all, you have really given me a push to do something, and confirmed the decision that the American stock will go to fund this.

Richie

[Newportnobby]

We all like spending other people's money

[crewearpley40]

Richie

Don't forget air braked stock. http://igg.org.uk/rail/7-fops/fo-abn.htm


Depends on space you have. Crewe and Warrington are needing a lot of space so a compromise see here https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=52918.0


Simon 's layout dallam.

Any help there's a few of us who model the NW



I noticed modellable trains here


https://youtu.be/0qyeBNvwlf0


https://youtu.be/73nCucOQBhA


https://youtu.be/f8O5k5dHAO4



Then you can see what's involved

[fh47331]

We all like spending other people's money

That doesnt surprise me!!! I may have just ordered an 86 and a 87 ... oops!

Richie
Depends on space you have. Crewe and Warrington are needing a lot of space so a compromise.
Any help there's a few of us who model the NW

Thanks Chris, I think i've watched one if not two of those video's in the past week!  Im thinking of the Crewe-Warrington *area* rather than recreating the location, but with a track layout based on Stafford.  Current plans anyway, once I start working things out, it may change!