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https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder)

Quote
.. Deposit £0.00 ...
.. Estimated delivery date: Q4 2018 ...
.. The project is conditional on reaching a sufficiently large number of pre-orders, tooling will not start until this requirement is met. ...

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across as a constant critic of Dapol, but they make it so easy. How on earth are they going to deliver a product between 1 and 3 months from now, when tooling hasn't even begun yet? And tooling won't begin, until and unless sufficient pre-orders are received for a product that costs.. ah, we don't know how much it costs, do we(!)? :veryangry:

£150 For the power cars, £120 for 4 coaches, £50 for the two car buffet pack

Yes... at the bottom of their item description page/s it says

"The project is conditional on reaching a sufficiently large number of pre-orders, tooling will not start until this requirement is met"

So the Q4 2018 date does indeed seem extremely optimistic, given that they've only just now asked for, effectively, expressions of interest. I don't have any axe to grind against Dapol and hope this goes ahead but the way it's presented does seem a bit disingenuous... when they say "Dapol ARE be producing..." ... "...The model WILL BE available..." ... "... we are now producing the model..." it sounds like a foregone conclusion when it's anything but.

Compare and contrast with Revolution.

I have no axe to grind or attachment to either company. Just giving my opinion based on what I see as a potential customer.

Looking at what they've put on their website, it's just confusing (and I am probably better-informed about HST details than many of their potential buyers will be).

Why don't they just do like Revolution Trains did and offer it as fixed formation sets rather than in a 'bitty' format like this. The formations did vary, but the closest to prototypical is probably two power cars and eight coaches (two of them buffets) - but it appears that you can't buy this and if you want the standard formation have to buy the two extra coaches as well (those went fairly early on - they became part of the royal train, where they still remain) - I don't believe it ever ran with more than 8 carriages.

And as mentioned, how much does it cost?

And why haven't they removed that ridiculous 'HST-P' description, which they made up (and which was pointed out on their own forum as being fictional). The train was referred to as either 'Prototype HST' or 'HSDT'.

The advice at the bottom of each page about forming a full set is also dubious - the power cars are listed as 'Choose desired livery' - actually, the full yellow ends were applied when the power cars were in deparmental use (used for APT testing, among other things), and the whole protoype HST train never ran with the power cars in this livery so if anyone forms a full set with them it'll be wrong (if anyone wants to do that it's obviously up to them - but the advice should be right). This too was pointed out on their own forum the first time this model was announced.

On the Dapol stand today Andy said that if they get enough interest they would start fairly soon. The CADs are done and he estimated a delivery time of around this time next year.

Quote from: Shropshire Lad on September 08, 2018, 04:20:57 PM
On the Dapol stand today Andy said that if they get enough interest they would start fairly soon. The CADs are done and he estimated a delivery time of around this time next year.

Well, the way they are doing it is probably going to reduce the potential interest (as was pointed out to them last time...)

Indeed very easy to question and criticise dapol, and as I am sure we have all been told if there you have nothing good to say don't say anything. So I won't but very disappointed. #BoB/WC

Quote from: leachsprite4 on September 08, 2018, 05:43:47 PM
Indeed very easy to question and criticise dapol, and as I am sure we have all been told if there you have nothing good to say don't say anything. So I won't but very disappointed. #BoB/WC

Imagine the scene, Dapol headquarters...

Executive 1: "So, Revolution are racking up the hits with their Pendolino, and Bachmann have still have lion's share of the market. What we need is to announce something big, something that'll get people talking about Dapol again."

Executive 2: "And something that'll sell well, too. Our O gauge stuff is making a good return, but N gauge isn't so hot. What sold well last time?"

Executive 1: "Well, the Class 73s in Pullman livery sold out almost before they hit the shelves."

Executive 2: "Good point. So more 73s, definitely. But this time in some short-lived livery nobody cares about. How about Network Rail yellow? Like that twin-pack of yellow 86s that never, ever ended up on any store's bargain shelf."

Executive 1: "What else is the market crying out for?"

Executive 2: "Over on the NGF they won't stop asking about the Class 50s, the Pacers, or the Bullied light pacifics. Then there are those regular polls over on RMWeb. Top of their list were King Arthur class steam locos and Class 117 DMUs. We've made smashing models of Schools class loco and the Class 121, which are quite similar, so we know we can do those well."

Executive 1: "Right. So not them then! That would be far too boring. How's about the prototype HST? Where was that on the wish-list?"

Executive 2: "Number 53."

Executive 1: "Perfect. A stealthy, imaginative choice that's bound to take the market by storm! Get the HST models we've got, glue some buffers onto the front, and off we go! Should sell dozens of them, at least. That'll keep the bean-counters happy."

Executive 2: "It'll require a bit more than just buffers to get right. And the coaches were different too."

Executive 1: "Announce it anyway, say we're delivering it in a couple of months. Nobody cares about the coaches. They're just something to pull, aren't they? Anyway, even if it takes two years to get right, we don't want Revolution sneakily stealing our thunder by making the same model! So let's get this show on the road!"

Executive 2: "Fair enough. Should we bother asking for help so we get the paint job perfect this time, or just let the Chinese guys figure it out from some JPEGs they grabbed off Flickr?"

Executive 1: "What-evs. Nobody really notices these things. N gauge is so small, you can't really tell, can you?"

Cheers, NeMo

 :laughabovepost: Brilliant.

@NeMo (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=945) I didn't realise you knew so much about Dapol, how long have you worked there??  😂🤣😂😂🤣😂😂🤣😂

NeMo, that sounds scarily real... hope this can be pulled off tho.

Cheers, Timmo

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 11:37:45 AM
I see the Dapol bashers are having a field day on this thread. :veryangry:

I think you've missed the point!

The fact that they can't get the name of it right, give incomplete information on how to form a set (with regard to liveries - the full yellow cabs are not suitable for the full train but this isn't mentioned; indeed it's implied that they are) and are selling it in such a 'bitty' way could well lead to there not being enough expressions of interest for it to go ahead.

It is particular disappointing in that the incorrect name and the livery point were raised on their own forum first time round. They have then re-announced it with the same errors in place.

It also seems daft that you have to buy two extra coaches in order to form a typical 8-car set. The logical way to have sold it would have been options for a 2+8 set (including the buffets), or a 2+2 set (as they normally do with HSTs).

Only the blinkered can claim that raising legitimate issues is 'Dapol-bashing'. It's not - many of us want to to see this go ahead, and not getting the basics right isn't going to help Dapol in getting advance orders.

The simple question is do we want it or not or do we put our energy into quibbling while the opportunity sinks. :goggleeyes:

The options are straight forward and I have already placed my interest in a full train. :bounce:

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 11:37:45 AM
I see the Dapol bashers are having a field day on this thread. :veryangry:

They are very democratic though they bash Farish DJM Revolution etc in equal measures.  It must be in their nature to moan. ;D

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 12:25:42 PM

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 11:37:45 AM
I see the Dapol bashers are having a field day on this thread. :veryangry:

They are very democratic though they bash Farish DJM Revolution etc in equal measures.  It must be in their nature to moan. ;D

I don't recall criticising any of those - certainly not Revolution who went about production of the Pendolino in a very sensible way.

It would appear that according to some people on here any criticism is "bashing" even when the reasons for the criticism are clearly explained.

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 11:37:45 AM
I see the Dapol bashers are having a field day on this thread. :veryangry:
...

Quote from: RailGooner on September 08, 2018, 02:19:10 PM

Quote
.. Deposit £0.00 ...
.. Estimated delivery date: Q4 2018 ...
.. The project is conditional on reaching a sufficiently large number of pre-orders, tooling will not start until this requirement is met. ...

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across as a constant critic of Dapol, but they make it so easy.
...
:veryangry:

Not Dapol bashing. Just expressing my frustration. I'd love to own a model of the Prototype HST. But I'll not be expressing any interest in Dapol's project because, from the info provided by Dapol, I don't understand how to order a prototypical formation or how much it'll cost or when it might be delivered.

If I'm scratch building or converting a model, I'll do my own research and might enjoy doing so. If I'm buying a RTR loco/wagon/coach I don't mind doing a bit of research to find out what train formations that item would run in. But if I'm buying a RTR train, I expect the manufacturer to have done the research. I think that is a pretty fair approach for one to take and reasonable expectations to have of any manufacturer.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 12:22:54 PM
The options are straight forward and I have already placed my interest in a full train. :bounce:

"Straightforward" provided you are aware of the power car livery point (which many people won't be), and don't mind buying two coaches you don't need in order to get a typical 8-car formation...

Ahh the joys of people expressing their opinions points of view and how we ALL read things differently (NOT A CRITICISM JUST AN OBSERVATION)

But back on topic I am tempted although it would be a rule one purchase just have to see what the set up is with the actual prototype on the GCR and maybe work it in as a special when my layout finally come together!

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 12:46:39 PM
I don't care whether they have got the correct name. I know what they mean as will most modellers will do. If they had called it by it's proper name High Speed Diesel Train then very few would have known what it was.

It was sometimes referred to as 'HSDT' in its early days, but is generally referred to as 'Prototype HST' - and if described as this everyone would have understood what was meant - With the fictional 'HST-P' people may or may not work it out.

And I don't take any 'delight' in 'bashing' any company - Raising legitimate issues is not 'bashing'.

And for balance (as you seem to think that I have something against Dapol), I think that their Class 68 is one of the best N-gauge models ever produced.

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 12:46:39 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 12:00:16 PM

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 11:37:45 AM
I see the Dapol bashers are having a field day on this thread. :veryangry:

I think you've missed the point!

Not at all.

I don't care whether they have got the correct name. I know what they mean as will most modellers will do. If they had called it by it's proper name High Speed Diesel Train then very few would have known what it was.

Some modellers just seem to take delight at bashing Dapol.

At times I wonder why Dapol continue with 'N' gauge with all the criticism they get from the so called 'experts', when they can make more money from the larger scales.

Other manufactures are far from perfect and I have far higher percentage of failures (or incorrect liveries) from then than I have from Dapol.

Absolutely,  and at today's level of moulding detail the fact a model is available regardless of livery faults means it can be just run or corrected the way you want it,

I will always back anyone making a good attempt of delivering a new model in N. :thumbsup:

NB the NATIONAL-PRESERVATION.COM AND OTHERS refer to it as the HST (P) so its not a name conjured up by Dapol

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 12:56:49 PM
NB the NATIONAL-PRESERVATION.COM AND OTHERS refer to it as the HST (P) so its not a name conjured up by Dapol

They have probably copied it from Dapol - I've never seen it used before this model was announced the first time,

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 01:00:03 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 12:56:49 PM
NB the NATIONAL-PRESERVATION.COM AND OTHERS refer to it as the HST (P) so its not a name conjured up by Dapol

They have probably copied it from Dapol - I've never seen it used before this model was announced the first time,

No NATIONAL-PRESERVATION have used it for a long time and way before Dapol ever thought of the model.

Also its their Prototype HST they are using for detail, scanning etc. so almost certainly the other way round.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 01:03:37 PM

No NATIONAL-PRESERVATION have used it for a long time and way before Dapol ever thought of the model.

Also its their Prototype HST they are using for detail, scanning etc. so almost certainly the other way round.

Well, someone on there has invented it then - I've read all the books dealing with it, and have a number of the promotional booklets produced when it was new, and this term is never used.

'Their' prototype HST? The National Preservation form doesn't own any HST. - it's just a forum. The surviving prototype power car belongs to the NRM and is on long-term loan to the 125 group. Most of the trailers survive, but all heavily modified (five of them are in use with Mainline TOCs).

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 01:12:51 PM
High Speed Diesel Train was the official British Rail name for the train and included in there publicity

Initially it was, but that name seems to have disappeared fairly early on.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 12:22:54 PM
The options are straight forward and I have already placed my interest in a full train. :bounce:

"Straightforward" provided you are aware of the power car livery point (which many people won't be), and don't mind buying two coaches you don't need in order to get a typical 8-car formation...

Hi

Sorry but it took me all of thirty seconds to work out what was required to model the prototype from the information given on the Dapol webpage and a quick google.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 01:16:40 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 01:03:37 PM

No NATIONAL-PRESERVATION have used it for a long time and way before Dapol ever thought of the model.

Also its their Prototype HST they are using for detail, scanning etc. so almost certainly the other way round.

Well, someone on there has invented it then - I've read all the books dealing with it, and have a number of the promotional booklets produced when it was new, and this term is never used.

'Their' prototype HST? The National Preservation form doesn't own any HST. - it's just a forum. The surviving prototype power car belongs to the NRM and is on long-term loan to the 125 group. Most of the trailers survive, but all heavily modified (five of them are in use with Mainline TOCs).

That is not in doubt, however it is clear that it was not Dapol who invented the name as suggested earlier in this thread..

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 01:21:54 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 01:16:40 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 01:03:37 PM

No NATIONAL-PRESERVATION have used it for a long time and way before Dapol ever thought of the model.

Also its their Prototype HST they are using for detail, scanning etc. so almost certainly the other way round.

Well, someone on there has invented it then - I've read all the books dealing with it, and have a number of the promotional booklets produced when it was new, and this term is never used.

'Their' prototype HST? The National Preservation form doesn't own any HST. - it's just a forum. The surviving prototype power car belongs to the NRM and is on long-term loan to the 125 group. Most of the trailers survive, but all heavily modified (five of them are in use with Mainline TOCs).

That is not in doubt, however it is clear that it was not Dapol who invented the name as suggested earlier in this thread..

Dapol have invented HST-P - that variant hasn't appeared anywhere before and clearly results from confusion with APT-P.

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 01:19:25 PM
Sorry but it took me all of thirty seconds to work out what was required to model the prototype from the information given on the Dapol webpage and a quick google.

So you found the information which said that the full yellow cabs never appeared with the whole formation in 30 seconds?

Where?

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 01:30:09 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 01:19:25 PM
Sorry but it took me all of thirty seconds to work out what was required to model the prototype from the information given on the Dapol webpage and a quick google.

So you found the information which said that the full yellow cabs never appeared with the whole formation in 30 seconds?

Where?

Hi

Based on the information on the Dapol website that they are in departmental livery something that wasn't used on the full train.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 02:02:45 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on September 08, 2018, 02:59:10 PM
Why don't they just do like Revolution Trains did and offer it as fixed formation sets rather than in a 'bitty' format like this.

Because of feedback they got when they initially announced the model

" In response to feedback received after our initial announcement we are now producing the model as separate packs and making the power cars available as a twin pack"

Offer several clear options then, as Revolution Trains did with the Pendolino.

What Dapol have done is to leave the buyer to work out which power car livery goes with the whole train and which doesn't, and which unnecessary coaches they have to buy to get a typical set.

Sensible options could have been:
Power Cars Only
Four car set (power cars and two trailers)
Full set (power cars and eight trailers)

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 02:07:48 PM
Based on the information on the Dapol website that they are in departmental livery something that wasn't used on the full train.

Where does it actually say that the full train wasn't used in departmental service, and that the power cars never ran on the full train with full yellow ends?

When I was looking into this I couldn't find it anywhere simply stated - took quite a bit of hunting around for photos and asking others to be confident of the answer.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 02:09:43 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 02:07:48 PM
Based on the information on the Dapol website that they are in departmental livery something that wasn't used on the full train.

Where does it actually say that the full train wasn't used in departmental service, and that the power cars never ran on the full train with full yellow ends?

When I was looking into this I couldn't find it anywhere simply stated - took quite a bit of hunting around for photos and asking others to be confident of the answer.

Hi

The power cars were taken into departmental service after the full train was disassembled. Some of the coaches finding other roles.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 02:18:18 PM
The power cars were taken into departmental service after the full train was disassembled. Some of the coaches finding other roles.

That doesn't make it clear about the livery.

And on the advance order pages (w.g. https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder?product_id=3198 (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder?product_id=3198)) that phrase you quote isn't mentioned (and neither are the prices, and the expected delivery date is Q4 2018)

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 01:21:54 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 01:16:40 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 09, 2018, 01:03:37 PM

No NATIONAL-PRESERVATION have used it for a long time and way before Dapol ever thought of the model.

Also its their Prototype HST they are using for detail, scanning etc. so almost certainly the other way round.

Well, someone on there has invented it then - I've read all the books dealing with it, and have a number of the promotional booklets produced when it was new, and this term is never used.

'Their' prototype HST? The National Preservation form doesn't own any HST. - it's just a forum. The surviving prototype power car belongs to the NRM and is on long-term loan to the 125 group. Most of the trailers survive, but all heavily modified (five of them are in use with Mainline TOCs).

That is not in doubt, however it is clear that it was not Dapol who invented the name as suggested earlier in this thread..

Sorry, not clear to me. If the National Preservation forum refer to the Prototype HST as the 'HST (P)' and Dapol refer to it as the 'HST-P' I see a difference there. And so I can't accept that the National Preservation forum invented the term 'HST-P' and Dapol are merely following their lead. Rather, it seems to me from that evidence that Dapol indeed did invent the term 'HST-P'. The end result is I'm even more confused than I was a two dozen or so posts back.

For anyone looking at the information a manufacturer publishes on a product, and finding that information sufficient to immediately determine that is/not the product they want, then I am happy for that individual. For one who finds the manufacturer's published information frustratingly insufficient, I sympathize with that individual rather than taking umbrage with that individual.

Thirty years a go there was a real financial cost to publishing information. Info would usually have been published in a paper medium with costs associated to the drafting, printing, and distribution, of that media. So a manufacturer might have to be selective in the info they made available to the prospective customer.

Today the comparative cost of getting that info to the prospective customer is, thanks to the internet, a fraction of what it was. So I'm much less forgiving these days when a manufacturer - any manufacturer of any product - provides poor/confusing/inaccurate/incomplete information.

When Dapol launched the Digest, I joined up straight away. I was very involved and posted frequently. But the Digest was never what Dapol promised it would be. Dapol were too often glacially slow in responding to posts, and mostly ignored helpful and constructive criticism and corrections.

I love my Dapol Class 66s - and often post on here in defence of them when some 'bash' critique them unfavorably. I love my Dapol 67s. I love my Dapol HST. I love my Dapol Mk3s and Collets. I love my Dapol FEAs/ICAs/IKAs/IWAs/JNAs/KIAs/ZZAs. And how could I not love my Dapol 68(!)? I'd love a Prototype HST for it's historical significance - the same justification for my owning a Dapol 9F 'Evening Star', which I love.

However I find Dapol's communication frustrating at best. I defend my right to express that frustration in polite English. They are all big boys and girls at Dapol and I'm sure they can take a polite critique or too in public. If they can't, they oughtn't be trading to the public.

My final comment on this subject would be to say that for anyone buying this model I genuinely hope you enjoy it. But I'm out. :dighole:

Another one here who's not Dapol-bashing.

My little skit about the Dapol board meeting was simply my way of discussing what often look like really odd decisions. Specifically:

(1) Dapol sometimes come up with models that are timely, well-made and popular -- the 'Western', the Pannier tanks, the 'bubble car' railcars, the Silver Bullets, the Dogfish wagons, the Mk3 coaches and many others. Lots of people wanted them, either because they were absent from N gauge or existed only in the form of old and inadequate models from other manufacturers. Dapol are more than capable of "joined-up" thinking. For example, the 14xx loco alongside GWR autocoaches; the diesel hydraulics alongside milk tanks and ex-GWR parcels stock; and the various GWR 4-6-0s alongside the Collett coaches.

(2) When they put their mind to it, their attention to detail and the quality of the paintwork is second to none. The Silver Bullets, 9Fs and 'Westerns' have some of the best weathering I've ever seen on mass market products. They seem to have a willingness to run up a wide range of liveries quicker than Farish, so we get all sorts of lovely train packs and collectable locos, from the Wrexham & Shropshire 68s 67s and Mk3 coaches through to the goodness knows how many versions of the 73s we've seen over the years.

And yet, and yet, we sometimes see the most remarkable clangers. HSTs with iffy versions of the 'Executive' livery and a version of 'Western Enterprise' in all-over maroon without yellow ends that never existed.

I honestly couldn't give a rip what Dapol call their prototype HST on their website or packaging. To get worked up over that strikes me as looking for something to complain about!

What I do suspect is that Dapol are assuming many people will buy a 'token' formation, just as many people run their HSTs with just two or three carriages simply because that's all their layout can hold. I'd have thought that's their rationale here -- let people buy a couple power cars and a couple coaches, and leave the die-hard fans to figure out the extra coaches. There are countless books about the HST out there, so getting this sorted out really isn't that big of a deal, surely?

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on September 09, 2018, 02:35:49 PM
There are countless books about the HST out there, so getting this sorted out really isn't that big of a deal, surely?

Surprisingly really, but there aren't acutally many which give in-depth detail, and of those the one which some regard as the most informtive has to be treated with caution as it has a lot of mistakes.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 02:25:03 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 02:18:18 PM
The power cars were taken into departmental service after the full train was disassembled. Some of the coaches finding other roles.

That doesn't make it clear about the livery.

And on the advance order pages (w.g. https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder?product_id=3198 (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder?product_id=3198)) that phrase you quote isn't mentioned (and neither are the prices, and the expected delivery date is Q4 2018)

Hi

Does to me due to the departmental status and on the very link you supplied

• Power Car Pack 2: Departmental (overall yellow ends DMBs: 975812 & 975813)

I also suggest you revisit your link re prices as they are very clear to see.

I won't be posting any further on this subject as it's clear you have an agend and it doesn't matter what I say.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 02:44:05 PM
Does to me due to the departmental status and on the very link you supplied

• Power Car Pack 2: Departmental (overall yellow ends DMBs: 975812 & 975813)

I also suggest you revisit your link re prices as they are very clear to see.

I won't be posting any further on this subject as it's clear you have an agend and it doesn't matter what I say.

Sorry, but nowhere does it say that this livery didn't appear until they were in departmental use and the whole train had been disbanded - the 'departmental' reference could just as well refer to the renumbering.

The only price on that page I can see is '£0.00'

Why is it that certain people on here accuse others of having an 'agenda' for posting something which they don't agree with? What do you think my 'agenda' is? If you are going to start making that sort of accusation then you should at least justify it or it comes across as 'bashing' someone who you don't happen to agree with.

I have absolutely nothing against Dapol - they have produced many excellent models, and I would just like to see them get the promotion for this one right as that increases the chances of it actually being produced. When it was announced the first time, I read all the material carefully and pointed out some mistakes to them on their own forum, as did others. They abandoned plans for the model a while afterwards (in part because of not enough expressions of interest), and have then re-advertised without correcting the mistakes which were pointed out to them. Do you really think that demonstrates a sensible approach to advertising a product?

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 02:40:43 PM
Surprisingly really, but there aren't acutally many which give in-depth detail, and of those the one which some regard as the most informtive has to be treated with caution as it has a lot of mistakes.

Really? I'm looking at p.21 of HST Silver Jubilee, and it says quite clearly that the basic prototype train order consisted of four TFs, four TSs, and two refreshment vehicles, the TRUK and the TRSB. A typical train in deployment (p.24) consisted of a 2+7 formation, namely TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TRSB, TS, TS.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on September 09, 2018, 02:59:15 PM
Really? I'm looking at p.21 of HST Silver Jubilee, and it says quite clearly that the basic prototype train order consisted of four TFs, four TSs, and two refreshment vehicles, the TRUK and the TRSB. A typical train in deployment (p.24) consisted of a 2+7 formation, namely TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TRSB, TS, TS.

As I understand it, the original intention was for loco-hauled and HST Mk3s to be the same, and the test order was planned to allow for an 8-car HST (plus power cars), and two other carriages to be tested in other loco-hauled formation. Two of the coaches disappeared early on as they were taken to become part of the royal train, and the buffets were built later than the open coaches, so a re-bogied Mk1 buffet was used initially until they were ready.

As the project evolved, the concept of using standard loco-hauled coaches as the trailers was abandoned (and some changes were made to the prototype as a result of this, e.g. fitting one of the power cars with a 3-phase ETS alternator). This led to the differences between HST and LHCS mk3s in the production versions - converting between the two is possible and has been done in both directions, but it involves fairly major work.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 02:52:28 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 09, 2018, 02:44:05 PM
Does to me due to the departmental status and on the very link you supplied

• Power Car Pack 2: Departmental (overall yellow ends DMBs: 975812 & 975813)I

I also suggest you revisit your link re prices as they are very clear to see.

I won't be posting any further on this subject as it's clear you have an agend and it doesn't matter what I say.

Sorry, but nowhere does it say that this livery didn't appear until they were in departmental use and the whole train had been disbanded - the 'departmental' reference could just as well refer to the renumbering.

The only price on that page I can see is '£0.00'

Why is it that certain people on here accuse others of having an 'agenda' for posting something which they don't agree with? What do you think my 'agenda' is? If you are going to start making that sort of accusation then you should at least justify it or it comes across as 'bashing' someone who you don't happen to agree with.

I have absolutely nothing against Dapol - they have produced many excellent models, and I would just like to see them get the promotion for this one right as that increases the chances of it actually being produced. When it was announced the first time, I read all the material carefully and pointed out some mistakes to them on their own forum, as did others. They abandoned plans for the model a while afterwards (in part because of not enough expressions of interest), and have then re-advertised without correcting the mistakes which were pointed out to them. Do you really think that demonstrates a sensible approach to advertising a product?

Hi

Ok how about you clearly know more about this train than you are letting on from some of your other comments on this thread.

From your link price is quite clear

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/982-090918151533.png)

That's it from me.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 03:07:06 PM

Quote from: NeMo on September 09, 2018, 02:59:15 PM
Really? I'm looking at p.21 of HST Silver Jubilee, and it says quite clearly that the basic prototype train order consisted of four TFs, four TSs, and two refreshment vehicles, the TRUK and the TRSB. A typical train in deployment (p.24) consisted of a 2+7 formation, namely TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TRSB, TS, TS.

As I understand it, the original intention was for loco-hauled and HST Mk3s to be the same, and the test order was planned to allow for an 8-car HST (plus power cars), and two other carriages to be tested in other loco-hauled formation. Two of the coaches disappeared early on as they were taken to become part of the royal train, and the buffets were built later than the open coaches, so a re-bogied Mk1 buffet was used initially until they were ready.

As the project evolved, the concept of using standard loco-hauled coaches as the trailers was abandoned (and some changes were made to the prototype as a result of this, e.g. fitting one of the power cars with a 3-phase ETS alternator). This led to the differences between HST and LHCS mk3s in the production versions - converting between the two is possible and has been done in both directions, but it involves fairly major work.

Which is interesting and all, but I thought that you were asking "which coaches do I need to run with HSDT power cars". Well, there's the answer. From what Dapol is offering, you'll want a single two-pack of first class coaches, 1.5 two-packs of second class coaches, and the two-pack with the catering vehicles.

You can criticise the coaches as/when they arrive in terms of livery, detailing, etc., but for casual modellers wanting to run the HSDT on their layouts, the above information would seem to be adequate. Or am I missing something?

Cheers, NeMo

I get this:


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/4376-090918152308.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=68841)

Quote from: NeMo on September 09, 2018, 03:22:16 PM
Which is interesting and all, but I thought that you were asking "which coaches do I need to run with HSDT power cars". Well, there's the answer. From what Dapol is offering, you'll want a single two-pack of first class coaches, 1.5 two-packs of second class coaches, and the two-pack with the catering vehicles.

I knew what I needed - the objections I have are that it's necessary to buy two extra coaches which aren't needed in order to get all the ones which are needed, and that the confusing way it's being advertised could well lead to fewer expressions of interest, which in turn could affect whether it's viable or not.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 03:23:22 PM
I get this:


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/4376-090918152308.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=68841)

I also wondered where the prices came from as I also got the same screen. If you click the picture to enlarge it, after that the price and the pre-order button magically appear. So, certainly not your fault that you can't see a price.

But one other thing? Why do you think that the consist is wrong? The numbers Dapol offers are all correct as far as I can see:
http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm)

QuoteNote:
Two prototype Mark 3 coaches, used in HST trials, but only in the service train for a short period that ran on the WR, were First Class Open No E11001, and Second Class Open No E12001. These were withdrawn from stock and substantially rebuilt at Wolverton works, to become part of the new Royal Train. No E11001 is now No 2903; the Queen's Saloon. No E12001 is now No 2904; the Duke's Saloon.

Do you mean that 11001 and 12001 should not be included in Dapol's sets?

Quote from: Hiawatha on September 09, 2018, 04:55:38 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 03:23:22 PM
I get this:


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/4376-090918152308.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=68841)

I also wondered where the prices came from as I also got the same screen. If you click the picture to enlarge it, after that the price and the pre-order button magically appear. So, certainly not your fault that you can't see a price.

The same for me. No price on the web page.
So there's a problem with Dapol's web site.

Quote from: Hiawatha on September 09, 2018, 04:55:38 PM
Do you mean that 11001 and 12001 should not be included in Dapol's sets?

Depends on the period to be modelled - they are only appropriate for the early period of testing. That Train Testing site is very useful - the bloke who wrote it was evidently involved in testing of the set at the time.

All the coaches were the same so could be used interchangeably. As built, they were closer to the Mk3a loco-hauled coaches than to the production HST trailers - they had buffers, coupling hooks and drophead buckeye couplers, RCH jumper, and took a standard ETS supply. The 36-way control cable was at a higher level, beside the gangway. They had the three small roof vents at each end (again, as Mk3a), but no raised window frames (difficult to describe this, but if you look at one you will see what I mean). The doors were different - instead of the whole upper part being slightly recessed (as on both Mk3a/b and production HST Mk3s), it wasn't and instead there was a recess around the handle. None of the surviving coaches retain the original type of doors.

Production HST trailers differ in that they don't have buffers, the coupler is a fixed head buckeye (alliance coupler, technically), the 36-way control cable runs along the bottom, beneath the coupler, the RCH jumpers were dispensed wiith (the functions incoroporated into the main control cable), and the ETS feed is a 3-phase supply, meaning that individual motor/alternator sets aren't needed on the coaches.

The surviving coaches from the prototype set are all much changed. Apart from the two in the royal train, which have many bespoke alterations, they are all now converted into stanndard HST trailers - two in Network Rail's NMT, two with GWR (those are standard class), and three with LNER (one first and two standard). They can be identified by the lack of raised window frames, and the different roof vents (although trailers converted from loco-hauled also have these roof vents - the lack of window frames is unique to the prototype trailers).

This is 42353 (originally 12002):

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/4376-090918171811.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=68844)

Compare with a standard trailer, e.g. (not my photo):
https://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-HST/Mk3-TS/Mk3-TS-425xx/i-V97TFrc/A (https://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-HST/Mk3-TS/Mk3-TS-425xx/i-V97TFrc/A)

The different vents on the roof are obvious; the window frames less so but hopefully the difference can still be seen.

Incidentally, for the 2012 Railfest event at the NRM, FGW temporarily vinyled 42353 in its original livery and it was displayed with the surviving prototype power car.

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 05:34:29 PM
Running the HSDT  as a ten coach train is correct and it was in this formation it started revenue earing service on the Western Region in May 1975. After a short time two coaches (a First Open and a Second Open) were removed (they became part of the Royal Train).

Those two coaches were intially part of the Mk3 prototype pool, but I've never seen any pictures of the set actually running as a ten coach train - eight seems to be the maximum.

The page that you link to doesn't imply that all ten coaches were used at once - it says that the two which became part of the royal train only ran in the service train for a short period, with nothing about formations or train length - although at the top of the page it does say "The original HST prototype train included 3 first class coaches, three second class coaches, a buffet and a kitchen car."

I can't believe we're arguing over this.

@davidinyork (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4376), I gave a link to a book with descriptions of the train formations, and the typical carriages used, back on page 3 of this thread.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=42511.msg527339#msg527339 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=42511.msg527339#msg527339)

@Lindi (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6298) restated the same information some hours later, so I'm comfortable it's broadly correct.

Surely this information matched with what Dapol have offered adequate for most modellers. If the numbers aren't precisely right, then anyone's free to renumber the coaches using transfers available from the vendor of their choice.

At the end of the day this product may never be produced, so worrying about the running numbers on the coaches does seem a bit premature. If it's something either of you believe is massively important, then why not collect the evidence and send it off to Dapol? More chance of making a difference doing that than arguing about it here!

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on September 09, 2018, 07:34:27 PM
I can't believe we're arguing over this.

@davidinyork (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4376), I gave a link to a book with descriptions of the train formations, and the typical carriages used, back on page 3 of this thread.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=42511.msg527339#msg527339 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=42511.msg527339#msg527339)

@Lindi (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6298) restated the same information some hours later, so I'm comfortable it's broadly correct.

You are quoting Marsden's book, which is known to contain a lot of errors.

Quote from: Lindi on September 09, 2018, 07:47:29 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 07:43:11 PM

Quote from: NeMo on September 09, 2018, 07:34:27 PM
I can't believe we're arguing over this.

@davidinyork (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4376), I gave a link to a book with descriptions of the train formations, and the typical carriages used, back on page 3 of this thread.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=42511.msg527339#msg527339 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=42511.msg527339#msg527339)

@Lindi (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6298) restated the same information some hours later, so I'm comfortable it's broadly correct.

You are quoting Marsden's book, which is known to contain a lot of errors.

I was using pictorial evidence of 2+7 car formations from July 1977 onwards. If you look on the internet there are numerous pictures showing this formation.

Yes there are. So for anyone wanting to model that rather than 2+8 they are going to have to buy three coaches they don't need rather than two...

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 07:43:11 PM
You are quoting Marsden's book, which is known to contain a lot of errors.

Says who?

In any case, the quoted train formation appears to be correct, and as @Lindi (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6298) says, you can find evidence of such online.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on September 09, 2018, 08:20:32 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 07:43:11 PM
You are quoting Marsden's book, which is known to contain a lot of errors.

Says who?

In any case, the quoted train formation appears to be correct, and as @Lindi (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6298) says, you can find evidence of such online.

Cheers, NeMo

A lot of people - I've noticed quite a few, and various members of the 125 group have pointed out a lot more. This isn't the only one of Marsden's books where people who know the class concerned are not impressed.

the 2+7 formation for much of the in-service running is correct - but I've still not seen any evidence that it ran with ten carriages.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 09, 2018, 08:26:06 PM
the 2+7 formation for much of the in-service running is correct - but I've still not seen any evidence that it ran with ten carriages.

Seems unlikely, so far as normal operating service goes. On page 26 of the HST Silver Jubilee book it is stated that two of the trailers (TF 11001, TS 12001) were withdrawn from the project in early 1974 and rebuilt into Royal Train vehicles (discussed in more detail in chapter 4 of this same book).

It is stated that by the time of the HSDT trials, these two coaches were "technically spare" and surplus to "operating needs" and removed from the prototype train before it entered full passenger service.

Others may know if the HSDT ever operated as a 2+10 train during development runs, but so far as normal (1974-1976) running goes, definitely 2+7 was the most usual configuration.

Cheers, NeMo

I got an email from Dapol about this last week, as I'd previously expressed an interest.

It's been hard work reading through this thread, but it seems that based on the most common configuration, one needs to order four items: the power cars, the catering pack, and both coach packs.

It does seem a bit off that I'm going to end up with three spare coaches, but if one takes a positive view, that's a head start on the royal train  :thumbsup:

At least there's no money up front for this. If it does get into production, I suspect there will be late-comers to pick up any slack from expressions not taken up.

I'd be a lot happier if the original two that became Royal Train coaches were excluded and the buffet cars were put into the first coach pack instead.

I believe the drive to produce all eight TS and TF coaches was originally from the Miller Group who wanted them all done, and probably Dapol themselves who are retooling the coaches specifically for this train, so they have to make money by producing them so they need us to support the tooling costs by buying more coaches than we technically want.

The thing about the buffet cars is that they are not going to be retooled and I can understand that a purist might not buy these as they are technically wrong (hence why they are put in a separate pack), but to get a prototypical 2+8 set would seem to make better sense to me than to have to buy a 2+10 which if it ran at all only did so at the very start of trials.

Whichever way it pans out, I do want this train, so if we had to pay more £££s for fewer coaches, then I suppose it makes sense to have more coaches for the same price.

Best
Bob

PS here i am spotting the prototype on 27 May 1975 at Old Oak, and there is also a Class A tank in the background. Happy days! (on the same day i saw the last five Hymeks in service too)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/1517-190918102427.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=69215)

Are they tooling specifically for these coaches? Given the compromises on loco hauled versus HST mk3s and the 'standard' buffet offering that seems very surprising on a model of dubious profitability anyway.

Quote from: njee20 on September 19, 2018, 11:12:09 AM
Are they tooling specifically for these coaches? Given the compromises on loco hauled versus HST mk3s and the 'standard' buffet offering that seems very surprising on a model of dubious profitability anyway.

Could be drop in variation tooling to change details which is a lot cheaper

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 19, 2018, 11:14:19 AM

Quote from: njee20 on September 19, 2018, 11:12:09 AM
Are they tooling specifically for these coaches? Given the compromises on loco hauled versus HST mk3s and the 'standard' buffet offering that seems very surprising on a model of dubious profitability anyway.

Could be drop in variation tooling to change details which is a lot cheaper

The profile of the slam doors is different, so I would think that completely new tooling would be required.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 19, 2018, 11:20:17 AM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 19, 2018, 11:14:19 AM

Quote from: njee20 on September 19, 2018, 11:12:09 AM
Are they tooling specifically for these coaches? Given the compromises on loco hauled versus HST mk3s and the 'standard' buffet offering that seems very surprising on a model of dubious profitability anyway.

Could be drop in variation tooling to change details which is a lot cheaper

The profile of the slam doors is different, so I would think that completely new tooling would be required.

The alternative if the quantities are small is to soft-tool which is again a lot less cost, but very limited tool life.

Quote from: davidinyork on September 19, 2018, 11:20:17 AM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 19, 2018, 11:14:19 AM

Quote from: njee20 on September 19, 2018, 11:12:09 AM
Are they tooling specifically for these coaches? Given the compromises on loco hauled versus HST mk3s and the 'standard' buffet offering that seems very surprising on a model of dubious profitability anyway.

Could be drop in variation tooling to change details which is a lot cheaper

The profile of the slam doors is different, so I would think that completely new tooling would be required.

And the window frames are different I know, plus they've got the ro-vac roof vents like the mk3a, but have they actually said they're tooling for it?

Quote from: njee20 on September 19, 2018, 11:39:31 AM
And the window frames are different I know, plus they've got the ro-vac roof vents like the mk3a, but have they actually said they're tooling for it?

They said when they announced it the first time that it would be new tooling.

From the coach page on the Dapol website:

QuotePower cars:
• Operating lighting (inclusive of rear lamp, which can be overridden by a switch & DCC Control)
• Flush Glazing
• Highly detailed body, chassis and bogies.
• NEM coupling pockets with Rapido and Ezi-shunt magnetic couplings inclusive.
• DCC Ready (NEXT 18)
• All wheel pick-up
• Super-creep motor (Dummy car is un-motorised)
• Available as two-car sets (1 x Motorised & 1 x Dummy)
• Power Car Pack 1: Prototype passenger livery (DMBs: 41001 & 41002)
• Power Car Pack 2: Departmental (overall yellow ends DMBs: 975812 & 975813)

Coaches:
• New Tooling
• Recessed door handles
• Without window bezels
• Loco-Hauled type roof
• Without CDL indicator blister
• Buffers • Light-bar ready
• Fitted pickups
• NEM Coupling pockets
• Accessory pack.
• Available as 2 x 4 car sets • Saloon Pack 1 Contents: 2 x TF (11000, 11001) and 2 x TS (12000, 12001)
• Saloon Pack 2Contents: 2 x TF (11002, 11003) and 2 x TS (12002, 12003)

We have examined the possibility closely of producing the catering vehicles, and have taken the decision to produce these as a separate 2 car pack based on our existing Mk3 catering car and decorated in matching HST-P livery, but without any tooling modifications. Therefore the catering pack will be:

• Dapol Mk3 Buffet car in matching HST-P livery
• Lightbar ready
• Two car Buffet Pack containing 10000 as Trailer Buffet (TRSB) and 10100 as Trailer Kitchen (TRUK)

Therefore in order to own a full HST-P set you will need the following:
• 1 x 2D-027-xxx (Power cars) - Choose desired livery
• 1 x 2P-007-001 (Saloon pack 1)
• 1 x 2P-007-002 (Saloon pack 2)
• 1 x 2P-007-003 (Buffet pack)

Cool, wonder if they'll make a running change to the roofs on the relevant local hauled coaches.

Quote from: njee20 on September 19, 2018, 07:32:14 PM
Cool, wonder if they'll make a running change to the roofs on the relevant local hauled coaches.

Don't have any pictures to hand, but as I recall the prototype coaches and the Mk3as aren't the same - something about the roof hatches I think?

No idea if they're identical, but they're closer to the mk3a than the current offering. Both have 3 rovac vents as opposed to the single central one.

Hope all can clear a few things up, are all the coach packs the same livery just different coach numbers?

Regarding the power cars 2D-027-001 the part yellow front and 2D-027-002 the full yellow front version?

I have emailed Dapol to ask however they have not got back to me surprise surprise.

Spotted that this is at 89%, another 11% more signups and its a goer  :thumbsup:

If you haven't signed up yet here is a link to do so  :D

https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder)


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/3135-051218142653.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=72107)


Craig

Quote from: GWR-Kris on October 07, 2018, 11:02:01 PM
Hope all can clear a few things up, are all the coach packs the same livery just different coach numbers?

Yes - all are reverse blue/grey livery with the authentic coach numbers of the prototype

Quote from: GWR-Kris on October 07, 2018, 11:02:01 PM
Regarding the power cars 2D-027-001 the part yellow front and 2D-027-002 the full yellow front version?

The part yellow front end was as it ran originally in trials and in passenger service, in the full ten car (or less) configuration (as per the photo on my post on 19 September 2018).
The full yellow front ends were added later when in departmental service.

HTH
Bob

Could someone please clarify what the power cars ran with in departmental use.

Thanks

Sg,
Well that is a big can of worms !! In departmental use they ran on APT test trains quite a lot - often a power car of and APT sandwiched by test coaches.
http://www.prestonstation.org.uk/photoarchive/displayimage.php?pid=2418 (http://www.prestonstation.org.uk/photoarchive/displayimage.php?pid=2418) as an eample

http://www.traintesting.com/images/Ivo_peters_7-5-78_Bath.jpg (http://www.traintesting.com/images/Ivo_peters_7-5-78_Bath.jpg) - this could be modelled with a minimal purchase from Dapol and the bachman test car.  Even though the image is of Mentor.
Some Rule 1 possible with power cars and any test train vehicles in red/blue livery and also some pairs of power cars only valid.

Robert   

Thanks Robert, just hoping Dapol get this delivered now.

I am sure it will appear as the tooling has been used with eps seen at shows - with all the manufacturers several or multiple projects vie for limited time in work hours for not huge numbers of staff.

Checking artwork, fit, running and now DCC/ sound compatibility all adds to getting the model ready for market.

From what I have seen of the eps it does look very good. Slightly off topic and without creating wavelets I guess getting an apt power car will have to wait on a clever 3D print soul to create a bodyshell for the test trains, I suspect getting any more vehicles will remain Holy grail status.     (gets trench coat and tin helmet and leaves stage left- for 12 hours  at work today.)

On the subject of the APT, I have checked Shapeways and there is no sign of anything in N. I'm sure that there was an N version in development at some point but can't recall the exact details. It would be an ideal subject for Electra vinyls to take care of the flush glazing and livery.

Hi
Yes there was an APT but 3rd Boxcar - on here as well- a while back noted that it was paused pending some health issues but much work had been done - certainly at one time on shapeways were pictures of two vehicles under test, power car chassis was the last bit being worked on after successfully doing the nose!
I am hopeful that it might come back.

There is a T gauge solid APT available - albeit you need to sort bogies and how to fit a motor bogie into a solid created body, but would be good for a wrap as a work desk feature!

Robert

With a bit of searching I found the following:-

Power car chassis here:-

https://www.shapeways.com/product/38UB4FCSW/apt-m-underframe (https://www.shapeways.com/product/38UB4FCSW/apt-m-underframe)

Driving Trailer Second here:-

https://www.shapeways.com/product/RYY7A7V2C/apt-dts-body (https://www.shapeways.com/product/RYY7A7V2C/apt-dts-body)

Trailer Brake first here:-

https://www.shapeways.com/product/F8KXLFGTW/apt-tbf-body (https://www.shapeways.com/product/F8KXLFGTW/apt-tbf-body)

Video of things moving here:-

https://youtu.be/1WywqbufRsE (https://youtu.be/1WywqbufRsE)

Can't find the Motor car body.

Yep ,
That is it , but no PC shown as this was pending chassis mods - a class 90 had been the first point but the good gents were working on a chassis where bits from a 90 would be fitted into it - as ever the tilt profile stopped the normal Farish block fitting.

A lot shown  from 2014 and DTS  from 2017 so a slow gentle progress, and as it is being made for own layout  I suspect it will be a while before a full set is made and possibly longer still - if ever for it to be a public affair so I would be gentle in contacting the designers as it may well disappear.

Back on topic - sorry for wavlets again!   The 252 will make for a great train and given until very recently it had a bit of main line movement I guess updating the 252 production model with orange line and HSE style warning notices a bit more Rule 1 fun can be had.
Robert       

Rest assured that the 3d printed APT is still being worked on. As ever, real life gets in the way of modelling...

After much measuring and testing we have given up on the idea of using the Farish class 90. The motor was too big to fit within the restricted space of the ACT's power car. We looked at using a Farish DMU chassis. The 101, 108 or 150 chassis could just about squeeze (with a lot of work!) into the trailer first guard that sit either side of the power cars. After initial testing we felt two units would be needed and at over £200 isn't very cost effective.

Instead we've raided the American stock boxes of fellow Yorkshire Area Group members and identified parts from an Atlas diesel that according to our measurements should fit. The parts are reasonably easy to get hold of and not too expensive. A motorised chassis to fit within the M car is being worked on. We expect the new motor to have enough umph for a 14 car set but it remains to be seen what top speed it can manage.

A dummy power car will be made available once we've ironed out any changes needed.

Thanks for bearing with us on this project. Not being pestered during some tricky family times has welcomed.

Steven B
(partner in crime on the APT project)

Good news from Dapol - The HSDT prototype will be in the UK in 3-4 weeks time. Delivery of pre-orders should start right away.

Dapol have posted a couple of videos of more than complete sets being propelled round their test circuit at Chirk. A slow run by and a faster one to shake up the passengers.

Pleased I ordered this to go with my Revolution APT-E one day.

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AKjjTF48T0emmnI&cid=9002AEF2FFA48391&id=9002AEF2FFA48391%21116644&parId=9002AEF2FFA48391%21979&o=OneUp


https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AIhHNtOJbk2du2M&cid=9002AEF2FFA48391&id=9002AEF2FFA48391%21116662&parId=9002AEF2FFA48391%21979&o=OneUp

Quote from: woodbury22uk on July 28, 2020, 05:59:19 PM
Good news from Dapol - The HSDT prototype will be in the UK in 3-4 weeks time. Delivery of pre-orders should start right away.

Dapol have posted a couple of videos of more than complete sets being propelled round their test circuit at Chirk. A slow run by and a faster one to shake up the passengers.

Pleased I ordered this to go with my Revolution APT-E one day.

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AKjjTF48T0emmnI&cid=9002AEF2FFA48391&id=9002AEF2FFA48391%21116644&parId=9002AEF2FFA48391%21979&o=OneUp


https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AIhHNtOJbk2du2M&cid=9002AEF2FFA48391&id=9002AEF2FFA48391%21116662&parId=9002AEF2FFA48391%21979&o=OneUp

I've not been notified that my intent to purchase is now a pre-order. Have i missed something? I've not put any money down yet at all.
Bob

I put an order through 8th Sept 2018 but no cash was required.  I am really looking forward the this arriving, but not the invoice  :D

That's my mis-representation Bob G. My expression of interest was always a pre-order as far as I was concerned. I do not know how they will handle the transition from "intent to purchase" to an order. There was no commitment to purchase, although I have an order number.

I've already sold and am selling this week some "unnecessarily acquired" stock to fund this purchase. I copped the real one at Old Oak Common in May 1975 (alongside five Hymeks, and some Class A Tank Wagons no less).

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/97/1517-280720182624.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=97532)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/97/1517-280720182735.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=97533)
The Hymeks were still working at this time, on parcels trains IIRC. My notes say they were (from left to right) 7018, 7093, 7017, 7028, 7011.

Those were the days.
Bob

Wow. I expected more fanfare with this reaching critical mass and what not. Not one for me, but that's exciting.

Kudos to Dapol for just plodding on in the background.

Quote from: njee20 on July 28, 2020, 06:55:19 PM
Not one for me, but that's exciting.

Wot - not even with a twisted rule 1?

Is that a class 21/29 black bodyshell I see in the background of the first clip, looks to long for a class 22, well may be wishful thinking!

Quote from: Rabbitaway on July 28, 2020, 07:13:59 PM
Is that a class 21/29 black bodyshell I see in the background of the first clip, looks to long for a class 22, well may be wishful thinking!

Hard to tell from that angle, but I would be really pleased if it is!

Roy

Quote from: Rabbitaway on July 28, 2020, 07:13:59 PM
Is that a class 21/29 black bodyshell I see in the background of the first clip, looks to long for a class 22, well may be wishful thinking!

It seems to have split head codes, so it's not a 21/29 :no:

Quote from: Bob G on July 28, 2020, 06:57:59 PM

Quote from: njee20 on July 28, 2020, 06:55:19 PM
Not one for me, but that's exciting.

Wot - not even with a twisted rule 1?

Haha! It's never really held much appeal actually. an APT on the other hand...

Quote from: Bob G on July 28, 2020, 06:12:26 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on July 28, 2020, 05:59:19 PM
Good news from Dapol - The HSDT prototype will be in the UK in 3-4 weeks time. Delivery of pre-orders should start right away.

Dapol have posted a couple of videos of more than complete sets being propelled round their test circuit at Chirk. A slow run by and a faster one to shake up the passengers.

Pleased I ordered this to go with my Revolution APT-E one day.

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AKjjTF48T0emmnI&cid=9002AEF2FFA48391&id=9002AEF2FFA48391%21116644&parId=9002AEF2FFA48391%21979&o=OneUp


https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AIhHNtOJbk2du2M&cid=9002AEF2FFA48391&id=9002AEF2FFA48391%21116662&parId=9002AEF2FFA48391%21979&o=OneUp

I've not been notified that my intent to purchase is now a pre-order. Have i missed something? I've not put any money down yet at all.
Bob

Same here Bob, i did a pre order and didn't hear anything else, just have to see what happens ?

Craig

Maybe a silly question (I'm new to this...) but having missed the preorder, will these sets be available for general order?  Thanks!

Quote from: Red Onion on August 03, 2020, 02:16:26 AM
Maybe a silly question (I'm new to this...) but having missed the preorder, will these sets be available for general order?  Thanks!

I am fairly certain that Dapol will have made more than just the pre-order quantity. The expressions of interest/pre-order process was to give Dapol the confidence that it was worth tooling the new power cars and coach body/roof.

I thought as much but wasn't entirely sure.  Definitely something I'm keen on

Anybody got an email from Dapol on this yet ?

I went onto the Dapol forum and tried to log in to post a question but when i click on the login link i get this message

"Invalid Page URL. If this is an error and the page should exist, please contact the system administrator and tell them how you got this message. "  :hmmm:

Could somebody post a working link to log in please ?

Craig

Not had an email but the ship was due to dock last Saturday and Dapol were hoping to be emailing people by the end of this week for payment.
Cheers Colin

Quote from: Shropshire Lad on August 19, 2020, 09:18:26 AM
Not had an email but the ship was due to dock last Saturday and Dapol were hoping to be emailing people by the end of this week for payment.
Cheers Colin

Thanks Colin

got a Email today to pay the balance today now after two class 17 my credit card is now crying  :claphappy:

John

I paid for mine as well this morning.

Same here: paid and a brittle Visa card  :D

Paid for mine this afternoon, collecting it in the morning 😁
Cheers Colin

No saloons til Monday apparently but I'm looking forward to testing these later 😁
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/5589-210820113314.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=98454)

So who has ordered the full length train ?
What formations did this run in, did it run as a shortened version ?

Craig

I can only run a six car plus two, but I'm tempted to complete the set simply because they complete the set and might increase in value as a collection.
Plus it's my 60th birthday present from my wife who just gave me her card...

@Dalek (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3135) , reply #102;

See

http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm)

and also

http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm)

Note that for a short period, the buffet car was a repainted and upgraded (new bogies) Mk1 coach.

Martyn

So I do really need both packs to run a WR passenger carrying train of Power Car+3FO+2RB+3SO+Power Car.
That's enough justification. All coaches ordered.
I wonder if Dapol have included transfers for 252001 as these are missing under the nose and that was the condition I saw her in, in 1975, at Old Oak.

Best
Bob

Quote from: martyn on August 21, 2020, 01:46:18 PM
@Dalek (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3135) , reply #102;

See

http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm)

and also

http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm)

Note that for a short period, the buffet car was a repainted and upgraded (new bogies) Mk1 coach.

Martyn

Thanks martyn  :thumbsup:

I'm pretty cross that Dapol appear not to deduct VAT on overseas orders. Plus 39.95 pounds for shipping is quite frankly ridiculous...

I've seen far higher charges from the US on smaller items.

Have you asked them? I've got suppliers to use alternative services before. 

Anyone know if they are going to be in the shops or are they a Dapol direct special.  You might get a better postage rate from a shop.

Quote from: Bob G on August 21, 2020, 03:23:44 PM
So I do really need both packs to run a WR passenger carrying train of Power Car+3FO+2RB+3SO+Power Car.
That's enough justification. All coaches ordered.
I wonder if Dapol have included transfers for 252001 as these are missing under the nose and that was the condition I saw her in, in 1975, at Old Oak.

Best
Bob

Yes the 252 001 transfers, along with a lot of buffer beam detail parts, are included.
Cheers Colin

It just gets better and better.
What a birthday present for me!!!!
Bob

Good news/ bad news if you are fitting sound.The PCB has speaker connections but it'll only take a mini sugarcube without any modifications because the power car has rear lights. Disconnecting the rear lights might give enough room for a standard sugarcube but I haven't received my decoders yet so haven't looked too far into speaker fitment.
Cheers Colin

Is anyone else who preordered waiting for the email and invoice still?  Do not want to hassle Dapol unnecessarily.

Yes, I also preorderd but so far not received an e mail or invoice.

I was going to give it a week or so before contacting Dapol.

I only received my email yesterday.

Quote from: njee20 on August 21, 2020, 11:16:47 PM
I've seen far higher charges from the US on smaller items.

Have you asked them? I've got suppliers to use alternative services before.

I emailed them on Thursday, so let's see (no response yet). To be honest, if they can package the coaches and power cars into one parcel I will be happy to wait.

I've not had an invoice - I'm assuming they have several hundred + orders to get through (and I know how time consuming that can be!).

Cheers Mike

My invoice for the RTC pair hasn't yet arrived, thank God.

Still got to break this to the missus..."you know it's my birthday next month"   :)

I never would have thought that the prototype HSDT I copped at Old Oak 45 years ago would ever appear in N.

Then two years ago when it was announced I thought the prices were steep, but fair given the one off nature of the product.
Two years on, and £30 for a correct pattern coach - no problem. £25 for repaint buffet/kitchen cars - no problem
£150 for a power car and dummy with lights - no problem.

Put it all together - well you just need a special birthday so you can have a special Birthday Present  :)

Bob

I probably gave up on this model and didn't pay attention but I did put in a pre-order and have received an email today asking for payment. This isn't a problem but I didn't order any coaches and now I can't see any. Does anyone know where I can find them?

EDIT: I have emailed Dapol to ask if they have any to sell

My set just shipped.

I still haven't had an invoice.Should I be concerned?

Quote from: mokjumbo on August 24, 2020, 02:44:02 PM
I still haven't had an invoice.Should I be concerned?

I haven't either, so I would say no, it looks like they're being processed individually or batched in what would logically be by pre-ordered date, I'm sure Dapol will announce somehow that they think they've done all the pre-orders, and to contact them if you haven't received your invoice

I've seen people saying they're doing 100 at a time, so I wouldn't worry.

OK,thanks.

I ordered as soon as it was announced for reservation and I suspect i'm in the first 100.

I had an email today asking for payment however i cant see anywhere saying they are in stock.

Quote from: GWR-Kris on August 24, 2020, 03:32:12 PM
I had an email today asking for payment however i cant see anywhere saying they are in stock.

As I understand it there is a limited number and only once pre-orders are fulfilled the remaining stock will be offered for sale.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed some make it out for general sale having missed the preorder...

Mine are arriving tomorrow by DPD.
But I wont be allowed to see them as they are a Birthday Present - will have to wait until mid-September.
Bob

Mine has also shipped with dpd and is due tomorrow

Quote from: Bob G on August 24, 2020, 05:34:45 PM
Mine are arriving tomorrow by DPD.
But I wont be allowed to see them as they are a Birthday Present - will have to wait until mid-September.
Bob

[/quote]Mine has also shipped with dpd and is due tomorrow[/quote]

Me too

John

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 24, 2020, 03:31:14 PM
I ordered as soon as it was announced for reservation and I suspect i'm in the first 100.

Hi

I ordered on 9/09/2018 and mine has shipped today but I have no idea who is bringing it as the email or my account doesn't tell me.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: Bob G on August 24, 2020, 05:34:45 PM
Mine are arriving tomorrow by DPD.
But I wont be allowed to see them as they are a Birthday Present - will have to wait until mid-September.
Bob

Surely you'll give it a test run to make sure it doesn't need to be returned, won't you?

That's certainly the angle I'd use.

If its any help to any one still awaiting thier email from Dapol, I orded mine 07/12/18 and received the email requesting payment today.

Time for another rant.

My HST-P (well most of it ) arrived this morning and it looks to be a very good model.  Unfortunately Dapols usual incompitence has reared its head again and I have been sent two "Coach set 2" instead of one and they have not sent the restaurant set.  :veryangry: :censored: :veryangry:

So I called them and was told I have to return the duplicate before they will dispatch the correct item. 

Questions I asked

Will they collect - NO,

will they arrange a means of return for someone Covid19 shielding - NO

Their Free post requires going to a post office and If I want to send it back by any other means I have to pay.

Congratulations to Dapol once again for a "World Class" Customer Service  (as defined by HM Government  :no:)

Anyway here is a photo of the power cars.


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/3761-250820103739.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=98619)

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 25, 2020, 10:48:06 AM
Time for another rant.

My HST-P (well most of it ) arrived this morning and it looks to be a very good model.  Unfortunately Dapols usual incompitence has reared its head again and I have been sent two "Coach set 2" instead of one and they have not sent the restaurant set.  :veryangry: :censored: :veryangry:

So I called them and was told I have to return the duplicate before they will dispatch the correct item. 

Questions I asked

Will they collect - NO,

will they arrange a means of return for someone Covid19 shielding - NO

Their Free post requires going to a post office and If I want to send it back by any other means I have to pay.

Congratulations to Dapol once again for a "World Class" Customer Service  (as defined by HM Government  :no:)

Anyway here is a photo of the power cars.


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/3761-250820103739.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=98619)

I have now spoken to Joel and it is being sorted.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Red Onion on August 24, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
I'm keeping my fingers crossed some make it out for general sale having missed the preorder...

Yeah me too.

I would like the Departmental Pair for my RTC stuff.

Cheers

Neal.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 25, 2020, 10:48:06 AM

will they arrange a means of return for someone Covid19 shielding - NO

A number of Companies seem to be exploiting the inability of getting proof of posting for such folk. It stinks.

Regardless, assuming Joel sorts it out and I have no doubt he will this is a really nice model.  I have ordered up a pair of sound decoders from Youchoos and when they are installed I will do a running review.

The rendering of the model is clean and tidy and it does look the part.  You can see a lot of work has gone into getting the details correct.  Without running it which I will do in a few days so far its a 10/10 and well worth the investment.

I didn't realise that Youchoos do sound for the HST Prototype. I thought they only did the VP185 engines variant HSTs.
Cheers Colin

i have also been sent the wrong set of powers cars i have got Departmental ones instead of in service ones :veryangry:
looks like someone at dapol needs new glasses

John

Just had my request for payment so am a happy bunny.......the bank manager less so !

Quote from: Shropshire Lad on August 25, 2020, 12:37:06 PM
I didn't realise that Youchoos do sound for the HST Prototype. I thought they only did the VP185 engines variant HSTs.
Cheers Colin

Its an acceptable compromise as the only sound set I have heard for and HST-p was terrible and I prefer to stick with Zimo chips and the YouChoos sound file.  I am going to play around with the acoustics till it sounds like the HST-P i heard at Haymarket depot in 1972.  It needs more whine :D

It certainly needs to whine 😁 I've got  Paul Chetter sounds with ZIMO chips in my blue grey HST and it screams like a good un!
Cheers Colin

Just paid for my RTC pair. Really excited about this.

Quote from: Trainfish on August 24, 2020, 11:32:51 AM
I probably gave up on this model and didn't pay attention but I did put in a pre-order and have received an email today asking for payment. This isn't a problem but I didn't order any coaches and now I can't see any. Does anyone know where I can find them?

EDIT: I have emailed Dapol to ask if they have any to sell

I had a call today from Dapol to ask if I had received their invoice, it was only sent yesterday! Seems they want to get them out quickly and he asked me to tell you all that they are calling people if they haven't paid as it's been nearly 2 years since orders like mine were placed and they can't be sure they have the correct email adresses etc. I would suggest that if you don't receive an email then call them towards the end of this week to make sure they have your details correct. He did say that they are going to be changing the way orders are placed in future as they realise that the current method is a little antiquated.
He also sorted out my incompetence in ordering coaches (or lack of ordering coaches) and has added 6 coaches to my order. I have no idea what the HST-P formation was but I'm happy with 2x TF, 2x TS and the TRSB & TRUK. 7 coaches would have been nice but as they're only sold in pairs and quads this isn't possible unless someone else wants 7/9 and wants to split a set of 4.

The worst part of him calling was that I was in the car (on hands-free) with Mrs Trainfish by my side so now she knows I have ordered a whole train! Fair play to the guy though, I warned him she was listening in and he didn't say the total cost  :thumbsup:

So, if I have got this right, if you have ordered a power car and trailer and the two packs of coaches along with the restaurant pack, there are 12 vehicles in all.?

Bob

Quote from: Shiney Sheff on August 25, 2020, 03:46:38 PM
So, if I have got this right, if you have ordered a power car and trailer and the two packs of coaches along with the restaurant pack, there are 12 vehicles in all.?

Bob

Not quite, I only ordered 1 pack of 4 coaches and 1 restaurant pack so I will have 2 power cars and 6 coaches. I would have liked another TS but would have had to sell the other 3 from a pack if I wanted to do that.

Quote from: Shiney Sheff on August 25, 2020, 03:46:38 PM
So, if I have got this right, if you have ordered a power car and trailer and the two packs of coaches along with the restaurant pack, there are 12 vehicles in all.?

Bob

Hi Bob
I thought i posted this before, but I'll try again.

Dapol have made two packs of SO-SO-FO-FO coaches and one pack of TRUB-TRUK restaurant vehicles. (NB someone might say they are TSO not SO and the catering coaches are wrong, but lets go with it for now). So in total you may have to buy 10 coaches to make the typical consists that I've seen in many photos.

The in service WR Paddington-Weston route was mainly Power Car-SO-SO-TRUB-SO-TRUK-FO-FO-Power Car.
I've seen another FO added in on the ECML trains, and possibly on the WR too. I dont think it ever did get up to 12 car in revenue earning service.

HTH
Bob

Interested in the Prototype but can't justify the cash on a model way before my era.

Enjoying seeing everybody getting there's though...however a bit concerned at the amount of people who seem to have been given the wrong power cars. In fact I have yet to see a single picture of the non-RTC ones.

Hope it gets resolved soon for everybody.

Skyline2uk

I've just fallen foul of the Dapol pickers as well.

Coach Pack 1 - check
Coach Pack 2 - check
Buffet Pack - check
Departmental HST Power Cars - Definitely not!!!!!!! I mean when you have all the coaches, you are going to buy the In Service version, surely?

Unfortunately the packing list says that what I bought, but that's not what I ordered.

Phone call tomorrow I guess.
Bob

Evening all,

Really glad to see these actually make it to market, a model I image many would have thought we'd never see.

Not ordered one myself purely as at the time costs were against me and the fact I'd only want the preserved powercar. So on that if these do go on general release and someone out there only wants 41002 then I'm sure some sort of arrangement could be reached!

Cheers

Ollie

:NGaugersRule:

Mine arrived today, am dead chuffed :D
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/4918-250820212352.jpeg)
Now to sort out some sound decoders.............

Its a good gob I was allowed to examine my Birthday present, as Dapol had sent me the wrong Power Cars.

And I have had an interesting call to Dapol this morning.

I wanted to return the Departmental HST they had sent in error, and they gave me two choices.
1. Keep the wrong one and they will give me a 15% refund.
2. Send it back Freepost.

Of course, I wanted to send it back, but it turns out that their invoicing system suffered a glitch and this is not an uncommon problem.

Oh dear! Anyone else been sent the wrong HST? I think their system is fine for Departmental purchases!

Bob

Quote from: Dizz on August 25, 2020, 09:51:22 PM
Mine arrived today, am dead chuffed :D
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/4918-250820212352.jpeg)
Now to sort out some sound decoders.............

Looks great but you've been sent the Departmental power cars...

Quote from: Bob G on August 26, 2020, 09:33:58 AM
Its a good gob I was allowed to examine my Birthday present, as Dapol had sent me the wrong Power Cars.

And I have had an interesting call to Dapol this morning.

I wanted to return the Departmental HST they had sent in error, and they gave me two choices.
1. Keep the wrong one and they will give me a 15% refund.
2. Send it back Freepost.

Of course, I wanted to send it back, but it turns out that their invoicing system suffered a glitch and this is not an uncommon problem.

Oh dear! Anyone else been sent the wrong HST? I think their system is fine for Departmental purchases!

Bob

Bob, so many people appear to have been sent the departmental power cars in error (seemingly because of a glitch Dapol are now aware of) that I am starting to become a Passenger Power Car denier, because I have not seen a single photo of the set yet!

Skyline2uk

My power car was fine it was the kitchen cars that were wrong in my order.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/3761-250820103739.jpeg)

Quote from: Skyline2uk on August 26, 2020, 09:43:02 AM

Bob, so many people appear to have been sent the departmental power cars in error (seemingly because of a glitch Dapol are now aware of) that I am starting to become a Passenger Power Car denier, because I have not seen a single photo of the set yet!

Skyline2uk

@Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761) has got his - but he got a wrong coach pack!

Yours remain the only 'in service' ones I've seen! I wonder if actually the screw up is further up the chain and they don't have anywhere near enough 'in service' powercars, hence incestivising people to keep the wrong ones. I really hope Dapol haven't snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, again!

Youchoos are sending me sound decoders for the weekend and I will post photos on their installation. :)

@Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761)

Thanks for that, good to know they exists.

I do hope there are enough to go around for people who are expecting them.

Skyline2uk

I've ordered the RTC pair. Hope I get the right ones...

Mine is ok, but I did pick the power cars up from Dapol
https://youtu.be/UAyhYVmAGwc
Cheers Colin

I got two of the RTC pack!

Awaiting a reponse....

Tony

Quote from: captainelectra on August 26, 2020, 10:35:13 AM
I've ordered the RTC pair. Hope I get the right ones...

I dont think there will be any problem supplying you with the RTC version :)
Just hang on to a prototype one if you get sent that one - as I have little faith in getting what I ordered at the moment.

Thank goodness my wife let me look at my Birthday present early.

Bob
 

Have they got the right product codes on the power car sets?

Cheers Mike

Hi

Still no sign of mine and it was shipped Monday. Post has been today.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
Hi

Still no sign of mine and it was shipped Monday. Post has been today.

Cheers

Paul

Comes by DPD

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:44:48 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
Hi

Still no sign of mine and it was shipped Monday. Post has been today.

Cheers

Paul

Comes by DPD

Hi

There was nothing on my email from Dapol saying how it was being shipped so I assumed it was by the Royal Mail. If DPD I would have expected an email from them as they usually give a time slot.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:56:19 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:44:48 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
Hi

Still no sign of mine and it was shipped Monday. Post has been today.

Cheers

Paul

Comes by DPD

Hi

There was nothing on my email from Dapol saying how it was being shipped so I assumed it was by the Royal Mail. If DPD I would have expected an email from them as they usually give a time slot.

Cheers

Paul

Yes I got shipping notice and a DPD email shortly after.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:58:06 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:56:19 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:44:48 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
Hi

Still no sign of mine and it was shipped Monday. Post has been today.

Cheers

Paul

Comes by DPD

Hi

There was nothing on my email from Dapol saying how it was being shipped so I assumed it was by the Royal Mail. If DPD I would have expected an email from them as they usually give a time slot.

Cheers

Paul

Yes I got shipping notice and a DPD email shortly after.

Hi

I just got an email saying it had shipped. I'll give it a week then I'll contact Dapol.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 02:00:54 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:58:06 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:56:19 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:44:48 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
Hi

Still no sign of mine and it was shipped Monday. Post has been today.

Cheers

Paul

Comes by DPD

Hi

There was nothing on my email from Dapol saying how it was being shipped so I assumed it was by the Royal Mail. If DPD I would have expected an email from them as they usually give a time slot.

Cheers

Paul

Yes I got shipping notice and a DPD email shortly after.

Hi

I just got an email saying it had shipped. I'll give it a week then I'll contact Dapol.

Out of interest what was your shipping cost.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 02:00:54 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:58:06 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:56:19 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:44:48 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
Hi

Still no sign of mine and it was shipped Monday. Post has been today.

Cheers

Paul

Comes by DPD

Hi

There was nothing on my email from Dapol saying how it was being shipped so I assumed it was by the Royal Mail. If DPD I would have expected an email from them as they usually give a time slot.

Cheers

Paul

Yes I got shipping notice and a DPD email shortly after.

Hi

I just got an email saying it had shipped. I'll give it a week then I'll contact Dapol.

Cheers

Paul

Given the mess Dapol is in I would call them now.  No email means DPD don't know about you package.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 01:58:06 PM

Yes I got shipping notice and a DPD email shortly after.

Just had both myself and they say they will deliver tomorrow. Fingers crossed they have sent the power cars I ordered, ie the prototype, not departmental

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 02:04:54 PM
Given the mess Dapol is in I would call them now.  No email means DPD don't know about you package.

Hi

Thanks and I've emailed them as I am unable to phone at the moment.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 26, 2020, 02:14:27 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 26, 2020, 02:04:54 PM
Given the mess Dapol is in I would call them now.  No email means DPD don't know about you package.

Hi

Thanks and I've emailed them as I am unable to phone at the moment.

Cheers

Paul

Going by personal experience alone, don't expect a fast response to an email. They may respond quickly but they haven't done so to me previously. They actually called me yesterday from a mobile but I'm not sure I should give that number out in case it's a personal number being used whilst working from home.

Quote from: Bob G on August 25, 2020, 06:19:48 PM

Quote from: Shiney Sheff on August 25, 2020, 03:46:38 PM
So, if I have got this right, if you have ordered a power car and trailer and the two packs of coaches along with the restaurant pack, there are 12 vehicles in all.?

Bob

Hi Bob
I thought i posted this before, but I'll try again.

Dapol have made two packs of SO-SO-FO-FO coaches and one pack of TRUB-TRUK restaurant vehicles. (NB someone might say they are TSO not SO and the catering coaches are wrong, but lets go with it for now). So in total you may have to buy 10 coaches to make the typical consists that I've seen in many photos.

The in service WR Paddington-Weston route was mainly Power Car-SO-SO-TRUB-SO-TRUK-FO-FO-Power Car.
I've seen another FO added in on the ECML trains, and possibly on the WR too. I dont think it ever did get up to 12 car in revenue earning service.

HTH
Bob

Bob is correct from what I have seen.

A key bit of information I have seen in books but never sourced and always in passing which makes a lot of sense is that the first 3 mk3's built were not for the hst program but just as prototype loco hauled stock.
As the hst was originally loco and stock they ordered 7 additional prototype coaches to allow a full train (the tsb and ruk being delayed due to changes including improvements to the window surrounds) When the hst became a dmu it gained 1 redundant prototype allowing 8 cars during ecml testing and the other 2 became royals as they were no longer required.

Construction of The mk3A SO/FO ordered for the west coast mainline were constructed first and were closer to the prototype than the hst mk3 which underwent greater testing and improvements some of which relied on the new electrical system and others found there way into later mk3A and the mk3b builds.

Quote from: red_death on August 26, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
Have they got the right product codes on the power car sets?

Cheers Mike

Definitely Mike. The packaging is/was (as it has gone back now) labelled correctly.
My pre order that I completed online, and the web generated invoice I paid for online (which interestingly is no longer accessible by me) said 001, but the packing slip said 002 and as I understand it, it seems their software somewhere between payment and packing might have changed the code, because the packing slip said 002 and I would never have knowingly ordered a yellow dipped version.
Bob

Quote from: CaleyDave on August 26, 2020, 02:44:54 PM

Bob is correct from what I have seen.

A key bit of information I have seen in books but never sourced and always in passing which makes a lot of sense is that the first 3 mk3's built were not for the hst program but just as prototype loco hauled stock.
As the hst was originally loco and stock they ordered 7 additional prototype coaches to allow a full train (the tsb and ruk being delayed due to changes including improvements to the window surrounds) When the hst became a dmu it gained 1 redundant prototype allowing 8 cars during ecml testing and the other 2 became royals as they were no longer required.

Construction of The mk3A SO/FO ordered for the west coast mainline were constructed first and were closer to the prototype than the hst mk3 which underwent greater testing and improvements some of which relied on the new electrical system and others found there way into later mk3A and the mk3b builds.

Makes sense as something else I've seen is that some/all of the prototype HST coach rake had buffers. I hope that Dapol have got that right (my toys minus power cars have gone to be wrapped in Birthday wrapping paper so I can't check)

Bob

Quote from: Bob G on August 26, 2020, 03:19:14 PM

Quote from: CaleyDave on August 26, 2020, 02:44:54 PM

Bob is correct from what I have seen.

A key bit of information I have seen in books but never sourced and always in passing which makes a lot of sense is that the first 3 mk3's built were not for the hst program but just as prototype loco hauled stock.
As the hst was originally loco and stock they ordered 7 additional prototype coaches to allow a full train (the tsb and ruk being delayed due to changes including improvements to the window surrounds) When the hst became a dmu it gained 1 redundant prototype allowing 8 cars during ecml testing and the other 2 became royals as they were no longer required.

Construction of The mk3A SO/FO ordered for the west coast mainline were constructed first and were closer to the prototype than the hst mk3 which underwent greater testing and improvements some of which relied on the new electrical system and others found there way into later mk3A and the mk3b builds.

Makes sense as something else I've seen is that some/all of the prototype HST coach rake had buffers. I hope that Dapol have got that right (my toys minus power cars have gone to be wrapped in Birthday wrapping paper so I can't check)

Bob

Yes all should have buffers.
I have paid my dues so will post up when they arrive unless anyone beats me to it.

Hi

Mine has actually been delivered now by Royal Mail. It's unusual for us to get two deliveries in a day but it would appear they have split the letters and parcels today.

Cheers

Paul

Larger parcels are rarely carried by the 'postie on his rounds' as they'd have no space for all the 'normal' letters.

I have just received the follow up phone call from Dapol regarding my order.

I took the opportunity to raise the problem regarding the shipment of 'wrong' power cars.

Dapol are aware of this issue and have posted a message on their web site in the latest news section.

In case the URL does not work, I have posted a copy below.

https://www.dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog/post&post_id=218 (https://www.dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog/post&post_id=218)

"It has come to our attention that an Technical error in our sales ordering software has caused problems with the first shipments of our new HST-P driving cars.

Customers may have been invoiced and received 2D-027-002 instead of the 2D-027-001 ordered. As soon as this was identified we made the necessary changes to prevent this affecting future deliveries.

Please except our apologises for this and the subsequent inconvenience caused, and we hope it does not detract too much from your enjoyment of the model.

If you are concerned please contact our staff who would be happy to help."

Quote from: njee20 on August 26, 2020, 05:57:55 PM
Larger parcels are rarely carried by the 'postie on his rounds' as they'd have no space for all the 'normal' letters.

Hi

Not in rural Lincolnshire, they normally come together and it's quite rare for us to get two deliveries in a day. Should also have mentioned my order was only for a pair of power cars so not a large parcel.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: Gordon D on August 26, 2020, 06:05:36 PM

Please except our apologises for this ..........................

Does this mean we don't have to accept their apologies? Sorry but I do think a business like this should know the difference between these 2 words.

Apologies if I am uploading this photo and it needs an acknowledgement - as I don't know where I got it from, but it is a great reminder about just how advanced looking this loco was at the time.

252001 and split box Peak no 19 at Swindon in 1974. And I have a split box peak courtesy of Mercig no less....

Best regards
Bob


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/1517-270820083609.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=98683)

Quote from: Trainfish on August 26, 2020, 08:39:31 PM

Quote from: Gordon D on August 26, 2020, 06:05:36 PM

Please except our apologises for this ..........................

Does this mean we don't have to accept their apologies? Sorry but I do think a business like this should know the difference between these 2 words.

I agree with you 100%...but such is by no means unusual. Worst example I saw was the video information screen at a sports centre run by the local council. Of the fifteen pages displayed in turn on the screen, all had either spelling, grammar or syntax errors (Weather instead of whether, etc.) Worst page hasd ten errors in just eight lines of text ! The trouble is, of course, that "spell check" only tells you whether the word as it has been spelt exists in the inbuilt dictionary...not whether or not it has been used in the correct context

Got mine today and surprised to find it correct. What formation did this run in?

Quote from: GWR-Kris on August 27, 2020, 10:50:08 AM
Got mine today and surprised to find it correct. What formation did this run in?

See my post #150 above.

Still waiting for the right power cars....
Bob

Quote from: Bob G on August 27, 2020, 11:01:15 AM

Quote from: GWR-Kris on August 27, 2020, 10:50:08 AM
Got mine today and surprised to find it correct. What formation did this run in?

See my post #150 above.

Still waiting for the right power cars....
Bob

Cheers Bob so thats a bit rubbish having to spend 120quid to get the correct formation

Has anyone noticed the Inter City logo  is on the wrong end on one side of the MK3's ?

Quote from: SteveS1967 on August 27, 2020, 11:33:09 AM
Has anyone noticed the Inter City logo  is on the wrong end on one side of the MK3's ?

Just checked my box of 4 coaches the intercity on mine is at the one end rather thank opposites

I got out of bed early (for me) this morning knowing that my HST-P was being delivered today. Went into town as it's market day, bought loads, got home, put stuff in freezer, made breakfast, came on here, checked emails and saw this in my inbox:

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/262-270820121020-986791901.jpeg)

I could have stayed in bed  :'(

Mine arrived this morning by DPD and in the time frame quoted. Model exactly as ordered, prototype power cars, and is now running in on the layout.

Geoff

Can anyone confirm of the coaches are correct as they have Intercity on the same end of the coach. I would of thought they would be opposite

Quote from: GWR-Kris on August 27, 2020, 03:30:52 PM
Can anyone confirm of the coaches are correct as they have Intercity on the same end of the coach. I would of thought they would be opposite

Hi Kris,
That was the first thing I noticed this morning, completely spoils the set for me, Power Cars are excellent, the buffet's are correct although they do use the existing model for these as the CDL is still present and they did mention the buffet's were not a retooled version, I've notified Dapol of this as at £120 per saloon pack it's an unforgivable oversight  :thumbsdown:
Regards,
Steve.

Are the buffets correct? They look like the standard ones to me, not the correct ones.

I don't get why they bothered to tool new roofs, but not make changes they could have used on their other coaches, like no-CDLs (well I do, it's cost, but you know what I mean). I wonder if we'll now see correct roofs on loco hauled mk3s.

Quote from: njee20 on August 27, 2020, 04:15:24 PM
Are the buffets correct? They look like the standard ones to me, not the correct ones.

Hi

No and that was mentioned right at the start that they wouldn't be tooling new buffet cars.

Cheers

Paul

I thought as much, just based on Steve's comment, which says they're both correct and incorrect...

I remember the talk being that they were "retooling the coaches", but obviously that's just roofs. I presume that's what was expected though!

Edit: no, originally they said they were totally new coaches:

QuoteCoaches:
New Tooling
Recessed door handles
Without window bezels
Loco-Hauled type roof
Without CDL indicator blister
Buffers

From here (https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/diesel/class-41-hst-p/project-managers-blog-ak/415-hst-p-opening-post).

My RTC pair arrived exactly on time and as ordered today. Very nice indeed.

Now, about some APT vehicles for them to haul...? :)

Mine arrived about half an hour ago and it all looks good to me. I even received the livery I ordered  :thumbsup:
I'm not concerned about whether the writing is in the right place as you can hardly see it anyway. In fact I thought at first that they'd missed the writing off completely. Coaches also look fine to me, whether the roofs are correct I neither know nor care, they still look good to me. Overall I'm a happy bunny  :D

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/262-270820181227-986931098.jpeg)

If it runs as well as it looks to me then it will probably stay on the layout for weeks. I'll try to do a video later tonight.

Some decent running shots in this video 8)

Good video but do the power cars sit slightly higher than the coaches? I'll find out later if mine do.

The standard HSTs do, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Quote from: Only Me on August 27, 2020, 08:18:02 PM
Mine have had a good run in now!! I like the lights at the rear of the power cars !!! Shame ill be ripping the powered ones out to fit sound!

You dont need if you make the roof the speaker enclosure and make sure you get a good seal.  You also have to remove the light socket and solder the wires direct.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/98/3761-270820205338.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=98700)

Quote from: Only Me on August 27, 2020, 09:14:12 PM
Its going back my dummy car just did the smoke trick...

Just off to the loft to test mine. I'd better test the smoke alarm first I guess  :goggleeyes:

First test run.  Train is great but the couplings suck, going magnetic.

Quote from: SteveS1967 on August 27, 2020, 04:04:37 PM

Quote from: GWR-Kris on August 27, 2020, 03:30:52 PM
Can anyone confirm of the coaches are correct as they have Intercity on the same end of the coach. I would of thought they would be opposite

Hi Kris,
That was the first thing I noticed this morning, completely spoils the set for me, Power Cars are excellent, the buffet's are correct although they do use the existing model for these as the CDL is still present and they did mention the buffet's were not a retooled version, I've notified Dapol of this as at £120 per saloon pack it's an unforgivable oversight  :thumbsdown:
Regards,
Steve.

Hi Steve keep me posted on that, be interested what the outcome is. Especially at the price they charged

Will do Kris :)

phoned dapol up this morning about the power car mix up and ended up buying another set instead of returning them ho well i now have something else to pull my RCT stock

John

Quote from: GWR-Kris on August 28, 2020, 01:01:50 AM

Quote from: SteveS1967 on August 27, 2020, 04:04:37 PM

Quote from: GWR-Kris on August 27, 2020, 03:30:52 PM
Can anyone confirm of the coaches are correct as they have Intercity on the same end of the coach. I would of thought they would be opposite

Hi Kris,
That was the first thing I noticed this morning, completely spoils the set for me, Power Cars are excellent, the buffet's are correct although they do use the existing model for these as the CDL is still present and they did mention the buffet's were not a retooled version, I've notified Dapol of this as at £120 per saloon pack it's an unforgivable oversight  :thumbsdown:
Regards,
Steve.

Hi Steve keep me posted on that, be interested what the outcome is. Especially at the price they charged

With regards to the seated coaches, Dapol is correct.
The numbers were all at one end of the coach and "Inter-City" at the other.
For example:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/3246995579/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/3246995579/)

Where Dapol have got it wrong is the Buffet cars where, on the TRUK Restaurant-Buffet (Struggling to find a good picture of the TRSB "Buffet" as apparently it is camera shy) where the "Restaurant-Buffet"  Branding should be at the seated end on both sides.
EDIT: See post below for Buffet car!

The White-on-Gray livery makes it a pain to see especially on old photos (But I doubt British Railways will reply if I complained)

Quote from: CaleyDave on August 29, 2020, 11:21:05 AM
With regards to the seated coaches, Dapol is correct.
The numbers were all at one end of the coach and "Inter-City" at the other.
For example:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/3246995579/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/3246995579/)

Where Dapol have got it wrong is the Buffet cars where, on the TRUK Restaurant-Buffet (Struggling to find a good picture of the TRSB "Buffet" as apparently it is camera shy) where the "Restaurant-Buffet"  Branding should be at the seated end on both sides.

The White-on-Gray livery makes it a pain to see especially on old photos (But I doubt British Railways will reply if I complained)

I wanted to expand on the above:
The E 10100 TRUK Restaurant car should have the "restaurant" Branding at the end of the coach with seats where as the E10000 TRSB Buffet car should have the "Buffet" branding at the kitchen end of the coach. The seating on both coaches always point towards the centre of the train so by having the branding at the appropriate end it matches the coaches when the right way around.
The reason the Restaurant/Kitchen car seating is at the second class end is so second class passengers could walk to the coach to get a sit down meal and the seats would be unreserved for use by restaurant users (table service as there was no counter). First class would get meals at their seats served from the kitchen end and would not be required to walk down the train.
The on the Buffet coach the counter is at the kitchen end and by putting the kitchen facing away from the middle the counter is closer to the middle of the second class portion of the train and there for people have less to walk to pick something up.

7 car rake
TF-TF-*TRUK-TS-TRSB*-TS-TS

8 car rake
TF-TF-TF-*TRUK-TS-TRSB*-TS-TS

I have used a * to indicate the kitchen end of the Catering car.
I have used the HST designations below where:
TRSB = 10000 (I have seen this listed as TRUB/Unclassified) = Trailer Restaurant Standard Buffet (Red stripe above Kitchen)
TRUK = 10100 = Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen (Full Red Stripe)
TF = 1100x = Trailer First
TS = 1200x = Trailer Second

---

I would suggest that the following improvements could be made to the Buffet cars using paint and transfers alone.
For a full accurate conversion you would need to rework both the toilet/kitchen windows and rework the roof. I can provide more details of this if any one is interested.

Restaurant E10100
- Window frames picked out in silver*.
- Branding should just be "Restaurant" at the passenger end of the coach (both sides)**.
- Corridor side Toilet window Should have bar across with the top half of it painted out white (As per seated coaches).
- Corridor side small half height windows painted white***.
- Kitchen side Half height kitchen windows should be painted white.
- Kitchen side kitchen small full height window should have a bar across it (Like toilet windows) Lower half should be painted white.

Buffet E10000
-Window frames picked out in silver*.
- "Buffet" Branding should be at the kitchen end of the coach (Both sides)**.
- Corridor side Toilet window Should have bar across with the top half of it painted out white (As per seated coaches)
- Kitchen side half height windows should be painted white
- kitchen side small full height window should have a bar across it with lower half painted white


Notes
* The Catering Cars were the first MK3's fitted with window frames as per the production MK3's. In colour photographs they appear to be unpainted and stand out from the rest of the livery.
** This is because of the orientation of the two catering cars where the seating always point towards the centre of the train.
***On the Kitchen Car it would not be expected for passengers to use the corridor as it divided first and second class so the windows are whited out.

To add insult to injury added the 18 Pin decoders try to program it... shorts out!!

Also further to above Dapol are doing the Inter7City set in conjunction with another company (I forget  which) BUT with "Slam Door MK3's" :(

It could still look OK with some clever livery printing but properly tooled refurbished bodies would be an improvement. Hornby have just released theirs and they have sold like hot-cakes.

with dapol going to the effort to retool mk3s for the the prototype set , i would have thought that redoing them for the power slide doors would have been a sound investment. with scotrail ,great western and crosscountry already using them and no doubt other operators using them in the future. and these have sold well for hornby as stated already

They've not retooled them for the prototype set. They said they would, but haven't. Just new roofs.

Quote from: njee20 on August 29, 2020, 04:17:59 PM
They've not retooled them for the prototype set. They said they would, but haven't. Just new roofs.

Sorry can you explain to me please.
My coaches have arrived but I'm not allowed to have them until mid September for birthday present.
I thought they had retooled the bodies of the coaches but not the buffet car. That seemed a sensible approach. How can they change the spec and not tell customers?
They still haven't sent my replacement power cars and Joel has not replied to my email to him either.
Very disappointed with Dapol at moment.
Bob

i was under the impression the same as bob that the coaches were retooled because of the windows and the ends but the buffets were not , i havent got a set yet is this not the case then , in that they have just painted over the standard mk3s that they have been selling for the last 10 years plus , i see the roofs have been redone as you have said,

Quote from: Bob G on August 29, 2020, 04:32:31 PM

Quote from: njee20 on August 29, 2020, 04:17:59 PM
They’ve not retooled them for the prototype set. They said they would, but haven’t. Just new roofs.

Sorry can you explain to me please.
My coaches have arrived but I’m not allowed to have them until mid September for birthday present.
I thought they had retooled the bodies of the coaches but not the buffet car. That seemed a sensible approach. How can they change the spec and not tell customers?
They still haven’t sent my replacement power cars and Joel has not replied to my email to him either.
Very disappointed with Dapol at moment.
Bob

They have been retooled.

In Addition to the roof (which I can confirm is compatible with exciting coaches as I swapped one with a loco hauled coach.)
The coach bodies have been molded with;
-doors with recessed Handel's
-no CDL lights
-no window frame surrounds
All mounted on the correct buffered loco hauled chassis.

It was suggested on the digest that the body would be further retooled further potentially as a open without CDL light with the prototype being a limited run.
If that happens is yet to be seen.

It is unlikely we will see a power door tools coach any time soon as both gaugemaster (GWR castle) and KMS (ScotRail Inter7city) (not Dapol) have commissioned exclusives using only painted doors which, whilst welcome, will have killed the idea of new tooling dead for the foreseeable.

Yes, sorry, I need to eat my words! It was of course the buffets, which still have CDL lights, window frames etc, mea culpa!

Quote from: njee20 on August 29, 2020, 04:55:29 PM
Yes, sorry, I need to eat my words! It was of course the buffets, which still have CDL lights, window frames etc, mea culpa!

Phew.
Happy now. Only droopy couplings to worry about now! Are Mk 3 coach rakes better with the Dapol buckeyes?
Bob

I gave up and have ordered Hunt Magnetic Couplings the ELITE version.  Should be with me by mid week.  They do an HST set but you will need two extra coaches worth for a full HST-P.

(https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/cache/0987a69decc606d16f31aad955f606f7da9d9ff8_480x480_fwb.jpg)

not really bob  , i have used either locking bars which are fine running no problem but are a pain connecting and detaching due to the sloppiness of the coupling housing , i am trying the new hunt couplings at the moment and they seem a better option for me that said its horses for courses.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 29, 2020, 05:19:38 PM
I gave up and have ordered Hunt Magnetic Couplings the ELITE version.  Should be with me by mid week.  They do an HST set but you will need two extra coaches worth for a full HST-P.

(https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/cache/0987a69decc606d16f31aad955f606f7da9d9ff8_480x480_fwb.jpg)

I'd be interested to see how easy these are to fit, I have a Dapol HST bookset on order and I'm considering fitting the Hunts

Quote from: Philip. on August 30, 2020, 07:15:39 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 29, 2020, 05:19:38 PM
I gave up and have ordered Hunt Magnetic Couplings the ELITE version.  Should be with me by mid week.  They do an HST set but you will need two extra coaches worth for a full HST-P.

(https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/cache/0987a69decc606d16f31aad955f606f7da9d9ff8_480x480_fwb.jpg)

I'd be interested to see how easy these are to fit, I have a Dapol HST bookset on order and I'm considering fitting the Hunts

I hope easy as they are NEM couplings.  I will post my thoughts when they arrive.  I also have a number of sets that will get the same treatment if they prove reliable.

I look forward to seeing how you get on

I have fitted all 10 of my HSDT Mk3s with short Hunt couplers and they seem well able to take the strain. With the power cars on their way to Chirk for exchange, it fell to my Ribblesdale Cement Class 17 to test things out. Pleased to say that the Class 17 lifted all 10 on a 1 in 50 gradient with just the merest hint of wheelspin for the first couple of centimetres.

I've switched to using Hunt Ultima couplings on all my Dapol Mk3 rakes including HST. They work well, allowing the close coupling mechanism to do it's job. Works just as well with the loco pushing from the rear of the train. You'll need close coupling for the Mk3 and an intermediate for the power cars.

Swapping them is simple but a pair of tweezers or fine needle nose pliers helps.

Steven B.

Hi

Where do you get the hunt couplings from?

Cheers

Paul

https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/ (https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/)

Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 30, 2020, 08:39:41 PM
https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/ (https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/)

Hi

Thanks.

Cheers

Paul

Another vote here for the Hunt Couplings. I've just done my HST rake and have, so far, had no issues.

Be careful when plugging them into the NEM pockets though, I suggest pulling the bogies off then supporting the NEM pocket as you push the Coupling into the Pocket, as I had to take the chassis's off and reseat the close coupling mechanism on a couple of coaches.

I've also got the Rapido replacements as well which is my next task, has anyone else replaced a Farish HST set with these couplings?? If so do I need an extended Coupling set for the Power Cars as for the NEM pocketed ones??

Cheers

Neal.

Quote from: Calnefoxile on September 01, 2020, 12:43:41 PM

Another vote here for the Hunt Couplings. I've just done my HST rake and have, so far, had no issues.

Cheers

Neal.

You'll have to bring those round next time you're here (COVID permitting) to show me @Calnefoxile (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=619) Neal. I haven't had any issues with the HST-P couplings but have had plenty with other Dapol HSTs which is also why I mainly use Farish coaches on them.

Has anybody who returned their sent-in-error RTC version received their real "in-service" version yet?
It seems like an age since I sent mine back.

Also very unhappy that no one at Dapol has responded to the email I sent to Joel in regard of me receiving the wrong pre-ordered model.

FWIW I also had to cancel a different Farish order with a well known retailer and phone around to get another model I wanted due to the shop advertising stock on the website but not actually having it, and not responding to my emails to them either.

Seems like Covid is becoming a poor excuse for bad customer relations.
The only present I'm going to get this year is free prescriptions on the NHS.

Perhaps this should be in  the grumpy thread.

Best
Bob

EDIT Some present pixies must have seen this post as I now have had an email promising delivery tomorrow.
Thank you Dapol fairies.

Quote from: Bob G on September 03, 2020, 02:51:02 PM

It seems like an age since I sent mine back.


Best
Bob

EDIT Some present pixies must have seen this post as I now have had an email promising delivery tomorrow.
Thank you Dapol fairies.

I think you said you sent it back on 26 or 27 August so 5 or 6 working days back. Mine was sent on Friday 28 August so hopefully I will have my replacements this week or early next.

Got a mail earlier saying my parcel from Dapol will be with me tomorrow - assume its the correct HST to replace the incorrect one received.

Regards

Tony

I gave my power cars a run in last night. Never having seen the original in person, can someone tell me if the headlights were really that bright?

Cheers, I thought that would be the case. This evening's task, find the spare decoders...

Quote from: Only Me on September 03, 2020, 06:03:42 PM
No they werent... and they were warm white incandescent not bright white

Under dcc they can be toned down

Presumably the LEDs could be changed to 'warm white' also.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Only Me on September 04, 2020, 12:58:16 PM
I guess so if someone is that worried about it

Oh definitely, but it will depend on how much glue and suchlike Dapol have used to secure the PCBs - on normal HSTs they are ok, but stuff like 156s are horrible...

Cheers,
Alan

Replacement HSDT prototype received and touch wood it works.
A bit stiff and wobbly but it has not been run in yet. Lets hope it loosens up. I quite like the bright lights.

Interesting the white and red lights on the No 2 end of the power cars. Not sure about those being on when the unit is running?
There also seems to be a lot of drag on the trailing power car too. Has anyone else experienced this?

And does anyone have a better idea of where the bits in the bits bag go than the dreadful exploded parts diagram provided?

Best
Bob

Quote from: Bob G on September 04, 2020, 01:26:56 PM

There also seems to be a lot of drag on the trailing power car too. Has anyone else experienced this?

Best
Bob

Hi

Yes mine is the same, I found without the body on it doesn't drag but I haven't spent any time as yet finding out why.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 04, 2020, 02:06:48 PM

Quote from: Bob G on September 04, 2020, 01:26:56 PM

There also seems to be a lot of drag on the trailing power car too. Has anyone else experienced this?

Best
Bob

Hi

Yes mine is the same, I found without the body on it doesn't drag but I haven't spent any time as yet finding out why.

Cheers

Paul

Check the body is snapped home correctly.

Quote from: Only Me on September 04, 2020, 01:50:06 PM
Bob the lights can be turned off on the rear by using the switch on the blanking plate...

Haven't found that yet. Was just a quick "does this work" test before being packed away for Birthday. 10 days to go....

I was so excited when I copped this train at Old Oak in 1975. You can't imagine what it feels like to actually have a model of it (albeit 45 years later).
It still looks amazing to me, especially given that e.g. some of the Claytons were still being built just 10 years before. That's a huge level of progress, considering both had Paxman engines and one was a disaster!

Thanks
Bob

Quote from: Snowwolflair on September 04, 2020, 02:08:59 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 04, 2020, 02:06:48 PM

Quote from: Bob G on September 04, 2020, 01:26:56 PM

There also seems to be a lot of drag on the trailing power car too. Has anyone else experienced this?

Best
Bob

Hi

Yes mine is the same, I found without the body on it doesn't drag but I haven't spent any time as yet finding out why.

Cheers

Paul

Check the body is snapped home correctly.

Hi

It is I've just checked

Cheers

Paul

Some DCC help please:

I will be adding sound later this week and want to get the prepararions done before the decoders arrive. I will have to remove a few mm of plastic from the top of the mounting to make space for the longer decoder however I cant find any information wrt the mounting PCB connections.  The speaker connections are marked, so that's not a problem, but would I be correct in thinking the other solder pads (circled in red) are for a stay alive circuit? Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter to check output/polarity/etc myself.
Many thanks in advance
Pete

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/4918-060920103046.jpeg)

Quote from: Dizz on September 06, 2020, 11:00:44 AM
Some DCC help please:

I will be adding sound later this week and want to get the prepararions done before the decoders arrive. I will have to remove a few mm of plastic from the top of the mounting to make space for the longer decoder however I cant find any information wrt the mounting PCB connections.  The speaker connections are marked, so that's not a problem, but would I be correct in thinking the other solder pads (circled in red) are for a stay alive circuit? Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter to check output/polarity/etc myself.
Many thanks in advance
Pete

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/4918-060920103046.jpeg)

You just need to unscrew the PCB and slide it along a bit.  See my notes earlier in the thread about mounting the speaker.

the circled pads are the motor + and -

 :thankyousign:
Thank you very much for replying so quickly.
I will move the pcb after lunch.
Have decided to invest in a multimeter to help with wiring in a stay alive.... should have bought one ages ago really.

Afternoon all,

Well I struck gold and found someone on Facebook who had a spare powercar pair for sale. Needless to say I snapped them up!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/4-060920161303.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=99119)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/4-060920161333.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=99120)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/4-060920161405.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=99121)

Only the powered 41001 will be staying with me as per the preservation seen. 41002 ia to be renumbered as 41001 and will be heading off to a friends layout to act as tue same, all be it as a Dummy version.

Just gave them an hours running and all reports are good so far!

Cheera

Ollie

:NGaugersRule:

Hi

I've had time to look at my dummy car and it's obvious that the wheels are rubbing on the underside of the underframe even with the body off. I am now pondering what is the best way to open up the bogie holes but also keeping reasonable strength in the underframe.

I also suspect the power car wheels are rubbing in the same manner but haven't checked yet.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 06, 2020, 04:48:34 PM
Hi

I've had time to look at my dummy car and it's obvious that the wheels are rubbing on the underside of the underframe even with the body off. I am now pondering what is the best way to open up the bogie holes but also keeping reasonable strength in the underframe.

I also suspect the power car wheels are rubbing in the same manner but haven't checked yet.

Cheers

Paul

I had the same with the Maunsell BY Van. That was easier to fix though.
Talk about tight tolerances!
Bob

Hi

I wonder if they have tried to lower the power cars slightly as the bogie openings look the same as my NMT version but it doesn't rub. I haven't as yet put them side by side but I suspect the new RTC version may be slightly lower in overall height.

Cheers

Paul

That would make sense, given the power cars do ride markedly higher than the coaches (on standard ones).

Hi

My dummy power car is now as free rolling as the NMT version I have.

Two things I noticed. The witness marks on the underside of the underframe where the wheels had rubbed and the contacts on the bogies slipping down the side of the copper strips on the underframe.

I bent the strips so they were further across the bogie opening and cut the underframe so that the square part either side of the curve for the bogie pivot is now 5.5mm long.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 07, 2020, 09:50:26 AM
Hi

My dummy power car is now as free rolling as the NMT version I have.

Two things I noticed. The witness marks on the underside of the underframe where the wheels had rubbed and the contacts on the bogies slipping down the side of the copper strips on the underframe.

I bent the strips so they were further across the bogie opening and cut the underframe so that the square part either side of the curve for the bogie pivot is now 5.5mm long.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul

I'm trying to picture this but without the original in front of me, I'm finding it difficult.
Can you take a photo and mark on it where the issue is and how it was resolved please.

Thanks
Bob

Hi

I am a work at the moment but should be able to do something this evening.

Cheers

Paul

Thanks Paul (so am I, but self-employed so able to multitask)
Bob

Hi

I've had to come home to pickup my mouse as I can't get on with the built in mousepad.

So I've managed to take a quick photo
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/982-070920120429.jpeg)

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Paul

The Postie delivered my HST-P set today, I have the Next 18 chips for it so will be fitting them later after running in on the temporary test loop set up for the Class 17.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/3799-080920141453.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=99209)

After running in the power car I could not resist running the full set.

Its the rear bogie , rear wheels on my dummy that's catching ...
Tried to work out the fix , sorry have not worked it out .. The bogie is sitting on top of the brass plates on the main body .... still rubbing... have you got a before and after shot ?? have you cut away a part of the body??

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 07, 2020, 12:07:13 PM
Hi








I've had to come home to pickup my mouse as I can't get on with the built in mousepad.

So I've managed to take a quick photo
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/982-070920120429.jpeg)

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Paul

Look at yours, that's the before, the one you've quoted is after...!

The key thing is lengthening the hole backward.

Hi

The hole needs to be lengthened in both directions so they are the same length either side the bogie pivot point.

The underframe is a separate moulding to the body and will require removing from the chassis before attempting to modify it.

The photo shows the model put back together after I had modified it.

Cheers

Paul

I'll wait for dapol before i start hacking into my 150 quid model... But good workaround

Hi folks,

My HSDT arrived today, prototype passenger livery as ordered. Really happy with it, will run it in as soon as I can clear some space in the cabin.

Two questions tho...

1: Did both power cars carry the same 252 001 number under the nose?

2: what are the etched grills in the transfer packet for please?

Many thanks,

Cheers, Timmo

Hi there

From 1972 - mid 1974 ish, the class was class 41 and the train was treated as two locos, with no set number.

IIRC, they were labelled 252001 and 252002 briefly in 1974 but were renumbered as a single set 252001 shortly afterwards.

Ian Allen Combined Volumes have them as locos 41001/002 in the 1975 volume (but at the time it was actually carrying 252001), then as multiple unit 252001 thereafter.

So if you are running it for early trials then mostly no number, or as a WR set, 252001 both ends. 

HTH
Bob

Thank you Bob, Rule 1 applies on my railway, so think I'll number them 001 and 002 then, as they did have this at some point.

Much appreciated, cheers, Timmo

Quote from: pape_timmo on September 10, 2020, 11:54:08 PM
2: what are the etched grills in the transfer packet for please.

Hi

I assume to cover the air horns on the roof, however most images seem to show it without the grill fitted.

This shows something over the air horns
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hst+prototype&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiK4IqY9uDrAhUa8IUKHZ18BxAQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=hst+p&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQARgBMgQIIxAnMgQIIxAnMgQIIxAnMgIIADICCAA6BAgAEENQrMoBWO_YAWCv4wFoAHAAeACAAXqIAZoDkgEDMS4zmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=WFVbX4rUEprglwSd-Z2AAQ&bih=666&biw=1024&client=safari&prmd=isnv&hl=en-gb#imgrc=gLX1_wo9mf3niM (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hst+prototype&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiK4IqY9uDrAhUa8IUKHZ18BxAQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=hst+p&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQARgBMgQIIxAnMgQIIxAnMgQIIxAnMgIIADICCAA6BAgAEENQrMoBWO_YAWCv4wFoAHAAeACAAXqIAZoDkgEDMS4zmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=WFVbX4rUEprglwSd-Z2AAQ&bih=666&biw=1024&client=safari&prmd=isnv&hl=en-gb#imgrc=gLX1_wo9mf3niM)

Cheers

Paul

Thanks Paul, I'll just leave those off then I think.

Cheers, Timmo

If anyone missed it the Prototype HST is now on general release

https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/n-gauge/hst/HST-P-AVAILABLE (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/n-gauge/hst/HST-P-AVAILABLE)

BANG!

I was looking at the full yellow ends, and then there weren't any.

Just Buffet cars now. There cant have been many left of anything.

I hope this is one time when I have purchased both a good investment and a good model.
Will look great alongside Revolution's forthcoming APT-E too.

Bob

Quote from: Bob G on October 01, 2020, 12:01:12 PM
There cant have been many left of anything.

There were 24 sets of powercars and similar of the coaches when I looked.

Glad I ordered straight away if they sold that quick!

Cheers,
Alan

Awesome! Hopefully endorses Dapol's investment.

Maybe Dapol have updated the page but there are 10+ of everything there right now

Interesting, there were definitely only buffets when I looked, so either they pulled them and activated them again or they've found some more!

Quote from: Yet_Another on October 01, 2020, 11:55:18 AM
BANG!

I was looking at the full yellow ends, and then there weren't any.

There are 20 of these available at the moment

I can't seem to get any shipping options!  Think I'll call them in the morning.

Same for me.
I cannot order.  :'(
I don't want to miss it a second time.  :'( :veryangry:

Likewise, I genuinely want this set!

It's on the checkout page I'm seeing it, I can't progress beyond the fourth box for shipping details.

Same for me.
Last times, it was working. Maybe a problem on Dapol's web site.

I think I'll phone in the morning when their lines open. Really want it, especially as I moved money out my savings for it   ;D

Does anyone know when the doors were changed on the prototype coaches converted to "production" TF's?

I have only found pictures of the coaches after privatisation where they have been replaced with production doors but I have never seen them in blue, executive or swallow.

I have been plotting and scheming about what to do with the 4th TF coach in the coach packs as I don't need it.

I have no interest in the 2 royal train conversions.
Lab Car 10 is a possibility.

Coach numbers
10000 40000 975984 
10100 40500 977089 "Lab 21"
11000 41000 975814 "Test Car10"
11001 2903 "Queen's saloon"
11002 41001 41170
11003 41002 41174 42357
12000 42000 41172 42355
12001 2904 "Duke of Edinburgh's Saloon"
12002 42001 41171 42353
12003 42002 41173 42356

29xx Royal
100xx/400xx Buffet (Second class)
101xx/405xx Kitchen (Unclassified/Restaurant)
11xxx/41xxx First class
12xxx/42xxx second class
97xxxx Departmental

I have successfully placed my order so if anyone is still after one, it seems to be working!  Fingers crossed it works again...

When the HST-P was released, I moaned about Dapol not taking off VAT for overseas sales as well as charging almost forty pounds for overseas postage for the loco pack and another forty pounds for the coaches (as for some reason my coach order got lost and then was considered a separate order needing two packages). I have since had a couple of conversations with their sales department and am happy to say that they have adjusted my order so I don't have to pay VAT and they will put all the orders into one package to reduce the postage.

Kudos to the Dapol sales team for their help. It took a couple of calls to get things sorted, but that is not a big issue given that we are in the middle of a pandemic.

So happy to say 'thanks' to Dapol and to put the record straight.

Quote from: CaleyDave on October 01, 2020, 11:42:11 PM
Does anyone know when the doors were changed on the prototype coaches converted to "production" TF's?

I have only found pictures of the coaches after privatisation where they have been replaced with production doors but I have never seen them in blue, executive or swallow.

Aren't these both with standard doors?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48897205637_6929fd5f2c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2huSXFB)C 42355 161293 (https://flic.kr/p/2huSXFB) by Steven Clements (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48897010946_2332e6f24f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2huRXNS)C 42357 161293 (https://flic.kr/p/2huRXNS) by Steven Clements (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/), on Flickr

Just inquisitive, this is obviously a very popular model, does anyone know how many were actually produced.

Quote from: Shiney Sheff on October 02, 2020, 10:12:49 AM
Just inquisitive, this is obviously a very popular model, does anyone know how many were actually produced.

Err....ONE. It was the prototype class 252 for classes 253 and 254.

I assume he means by Dapol, ie how many models. But the answer is no, no one will know other than Dapol.

Quote from: njee20 on October 02, 2020, 09:51:42 AM

Quote from: CaleyDave on October 01, 2020, 11:42:11 PM
Does anyone know when the doors were changed on the prototype coaches converted to "production" TF's?

I have only found pictures of the coaches after privatisation where they have been replaced with production doors but I have never seen them in blue, executive or swallow.

Aren't these both with standard doors?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48897205637_6929fd5f2c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2huSXFB)C 42355 161293 (https://flic.kr/p/2huSXFB) by Steven Clements (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48897010946_2332e6f24f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2huRXNS)C 42357 161293 (https://flic.kr/p/2huRXNS) by Steven Clements (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/), on Flickr

Thank you!

That is exactly what I was after!
I was down the rabbit hole of trying to find pictures when they were all TF's on the Eastern. Suppose we need to thank film getting cheaper as I have yet to find a picture of them in blue or executive (converted 1982).

Yes, they are production style doors.
It is my suspicion that this was part of the conversion along with sorting the mess that was the electrical system!

You can see the inset prototype doors clearly here
https://flic.kr/p/DDk2zW (https://flic.kr/p/DDk2zW)

On that basis it would be better waiting for the prototype roof to be offered as spares and  sand the window frames off a "production" coach.

Yeah I suspect the lesser of two evils would be to start with a stock IC swallow TS and sand the window frames. Wonder if they'll do the roof as a spare. Would be good for all the loco hauled mk3s.

Quote from: njee20 on October 02, 2020, 10:31:55 AM
I assume he means by Dapol, ie how many models. But the answer is no, no one will know other than Dapol.

Silly me. But I got the answer to MY interpretation of the question 100% correct!
Bob

There's a full set on Yahoo Auctions Japan going for 100,000 yen (about GBP735 at the current exchange rate) with 1 bid and 3 days to go: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/p800191513  :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes:

Still impossible to order on Dapol's web site.  :veryangry:
And no information (or so vague) from Dapol...

No news from Dapol. Neither by phone or email.
It's a shame !

I had an email from them this morning as I'd emailed them over the issues I had last night.  They asked if I was UK based and said the product is only orderable from within UK.

Worth trying to persevere in contacting them.

Having never ordered direct from Dapol before, I just wondered if they notify us when products are shipped?

yes they do, and they will give you the DPD tracking number

Perfect, thank you

Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 07, 2020, 12:07:13 PM
Hi

I've had to come home to pickup my mouse as I can't get on with the built in mousepad.

So I've managed to take a quick photo
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/982-070920120429.jpeg)

Hope this helps.

Cheers



Paul

thank you mine now runs a lot better

John

Quote from: njee20 on October 02, 2020, 09:51:42 AM

Quote from: CaleyDave on October 01, 2020, 11:42:11 PM
Does anyone know when the doors were changed on the prototype coaches converted to "production" TF's?

I have only found pictures of the coaches after privatisation where they have been replaced with production doors but I have never seen them in blue, executive or swallow.

Aren't these both with standard doors?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48897205637_6929fd5f2c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2huSXFB)C 42355 161293 (https://flic.kr/p/2huSXFB) by Steven Clements (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48897010946_2332e6f24f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2huRXNS)C 42357 161293 (https://flic.kr/p/2huRXNS) by Steven Clements (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/), on Flickr

Wanted to share for anyone reading this thread  and was also considering modeling the prototype mk3 after they were converted.

I recently read through the book
HST Silver Jubilee by Colin J. Marsden

It States that as part of the conversion the doors were
indeed changed. Apparently the coaches were stripped back to bare metal so the window columns could be strengthened so it's a bit bizarre they didn't change the window frames.

Caveat is the book is not perfect and I recommend cross referencing where possible but I would I would recommend this for any reference book.
Whilst I have identified some errors I believe this to be true.

So anyone wanting a unique mk3 to change things up should start with a production mk3 and remove the window frames and source a replacement prototype roof (hopefully these will be made available as spares as the prototype roof is the same as used on the production mk3A locomotive hauled coaches.)

Fortunately pictures of the lab/test coaches and royals are easier to come by. These all eventually received new style doors but at different times, some post privatisation.

Thanks again njee20 for finding the pictures.

Presumably the different doors presented either a safety issue (being subtly different in operation) or a spares issue, whilst a window frame makes no functional difference.

Quote from: njee20 on October 24, 2020, 08:24:41 AM
Presumably the different doors presented either a safety issue (being subtly different in operation) or a spares issue, whilst a window frame makes no functional difference.

Yea, if replacement glazing panels fits the windows regardless of the frame why change it. In my mind I think I was imagining the whole window, frame and all, being removed if it was broken which you would not do on a house or car.

On Doors;
From a Guard or station staff perspective i would think the Handel's would be less visible and therefore harder to tell of they were closed properly.

From the passenger perspective it looks like the Handel would again be hard to see when reaching out of the window to open it leading to some fumbling around trying to grab it.

It was the end of 1971 that internal door handles started being removed from mk2's after a number of fatalities attributed to them. Following the logic that they were delivered early 1972 I wonder if the prototype mk3's had or were designed to have internal door handles.

The production doors giving better view odf the Handel from the top and sides.

Speculation as most of the reference material I have focuses on the noisy bit over the more interesting comfortable bit.
When this is all over a trip to the archives by myself will be overdue!

I just paid £120 for another coach for my HST-P  :goggleeyes:

Ok, not strictly true. I have the power cars, a buffet/restaurant pack and a coach pack already. I decided rightly or wrongly that the HST-P doesn't look long enough with just 6 coaches and couldn't find a single coach anywhere as they don't seem to sell them singly. Once they arrive I'll decide what length I want (probably 7 coaches) and may offload the rest. Do you think there will be a market for selling single coaches? There's obviously a small market for them at least as I wanted one  :thumbsup:

Yay - I did that too.

You might want to keep one first and one second class coach from the four pack.

On the western I think it ran mostly as Power Car (country end)- TS-TS-TRUB-TS-TRUK-TF-TF-Power Car (Paddington end)
But I have one photo with it running as Power Car (country end)- TS-TS-TRUB-TS-TRUK-TF-TF-TF-Power Car (Paddington end)

Or keep the set intact and hope that like the Kato Eurostar, the infill coach sets become more valuable once they are no longer available.

Happy decisions!

Bob

I was already leaning towards the Power Car-TS-TS-TRUB-TS-TRUK-TF-TF-Power Car formation so if that's prototypical then I may do that to keep the rivet coach counters at bay  :thumbsup:

I noticed earlier that Dapol had 5 coach packs left. I bought 1 but now there are just 2 packs left. It is tempting to snap those up and sell them on in the future but I'm trying really hard not to do so. I saw a coach pack sell for £120 + £6 P&P on eBay earlier today which is £2.05 more than they would have paid directly from the manufacturer, strange. There are still 19 sets of the custard dipped power cars left though but I can't see those going quickly if there are no coaches left.

Quote from: Trainfish on November 10, 2020, 09:29:32 PM
There are still 19 sets of the custard dipped power cars left though but I can't see those going quickly if there are no coaches left.

They dont need reverse blue grey coaches. They need one or more Derby Research Centre coaches sandwiched between them.

Dont beat yourself up :)

Also don't believe everything you see on the site.
When they ran out of prototype livery power cars just after they went live to the public, they magically added some more, so its hard to tell what is their limit.
But I expect there will always be custard ones left at the end.

Bob

Quote from: Bob G on November 10, 2020, 10:30:52 PM
They dont need reverse blue grey coaches. They need one or more Derby Research Centre coaches sandwiched between them.

Prototypically maybe not but on my layout they have to be smart which means they match the power cars  :D

Quote from: Bob G on November 10, 2020, 10:30:52 PM
Also don't believe everything you see on the site.
When they ran out of prototype livery power cars just after they went live to the public, they magically added some more, so its hard to tell what is their limit.

Good point, I remember that now you mention it  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Bob G on November 10, 2020, 10:30:52 PM
But I expect there will always be custard ones left at the end.

Bob

I think you're right, they'll take longer to shift a bit like the custard dipped Pullmans.

Not that I want to upset you, but just because you like matching liveries, this proves that you dont have to do that... although I would definitely not run these on my layout

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/101/1517-111120075118.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=101774)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/101/1517-111120075144.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=101775)

I could just about accept the second picture but not the first. I like uniformity which is probably why I much prefer the old BR blue/grey days rather than all these multi-coloured worms we have these days.

I can see it's at Swindon but have you any idea when that picture was taken or if there are any more of it especially at Swindon?

Quote from: Trainfish on November 11, 2020, 11:52:46 AM
I could just about accept the second picture but not the first. I like uniformity which is probably why I much prefer the old BR blue/grey days rather than all these multi-coloured worms we have these days.

I can see it's at Swindon but have you any idea when that picture was taken or if there are any more of it especially at Swindon?

The first one with the test car is at Reading in August 1976.
The second is on an "in service" train with replacement Mark IIIs at Swindon in September 1976.

I know what you mean about uniformity. Maybe that's why I like southern green.

Bob

Bob

Just before my spotting days then which probably started around 1978. In my first job as an apprentice from 1980 we used to regularly visit a site just down the road from Micheldever station and one of the guys I worked with was also a spotter so many a time we spent an extended lunch break down by the oil terminal watching the blue/grey Southern EMUs and occassional 33 or 73 go past. There was usually a 33 in the oil terminal too  :thumbsup:

Anyway, back to the topic, my coaches haven't arrived yet and it 's been almost 24 hours since I ordered them  :worried:

Quote from: Trainfish on November 11, 2020, 11:52:46 AM
I can see it's at Swindon but have you any idea when that picture was taken or if there are any more of it especially at Swindon?

Sept 1976, Swindon on a down service (i.e. away from London)
You can see the original photo and others of the prototype HST here:
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm)

It's funny how modellers like trains of uniform liveried stock even if the real things regularly mixed liveries throughout the years of BR and beyond.

Steven B.

Hi Gang,

I shall certainly be inserting the Farish Test Car 6 into my HST-P formation at certain times as per the pic from Reading a few posts above. Certainly the pic with the production Blue\ Grey coaches was a new one on me.
I must have made an error in my orders and I now have two sets of power cars ( in the passenger livery). Will probably get round to moving the spare pair on at some stage.

Later,
Stu from EGDL.

Quote from: Steven B on November 11, 2020, 04:36:59 PM
You can see the original photo and others of the prototype HST here:
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm)

It's funny how modellers like trains of uniform liveried stock even if the real things regularly mixed liveries throughout the years of BR and beyond.

Steven B.

Some great pictures on that site @Steven B (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3063) , thanks. I also spottted the picture below and until now was unaware an APT-E ever went through Swindon  :goggleeyes: In my defence I lived in Germany in 1975 and had hardly seen any trains until the summer of that year when we lived in Münster in Germany. We flew from somewhere in Germany to somewhere in the UK then went by train to Oban to catch the ferry to Lochboisdale and then a drive to Benbecula to see my uncle and aunt. Now that was a long trip! And a long sentence.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/101/262-111120230833-101810550.jpeg)

If you watch this video, and part 2, Kit Spackman explains the circumstances for that photo at Swindon being taken, the HSDT team did not want the two trains seen together, but the APT-E team worked things so that it did happen.

https://youtu.be/HY1psxEDtqY

Cheers, Timmo

Just watched the whole of part 1  :thumbsup:

I must admit I thought at first that the APT was 'hiding' behind the HST which wasn't quite the case it seems.

Great video and very interesting, thanks. I'll watch part 2 tomorrow  :thumbsup:

My second set of 4 HST-P coaches arrived on Friday and now I'm not so sure I want to offload any, I like them too much. Maybe I'll use 1 and keep the others as spares. Not that I need spares but hey, who knows?

I was trawling through my uploaded pictures earlier and found this, I uploaded it 2 years ago apparently but I don't remember doing so  :goggleeyes:
Note there's no lamp bracket on it in this picture  :(

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/70/262-291018125505-70662504.jpeg)

Quote from: Bob G on November 10, 2020, 10:30:52 PM
Also don't believe everything you see on the site.
When they ran out of prototype livery power cars just after they went live to the public, they magically added some more, so its hard to tell what is their limit.

Predictably there appears to be more stock on the Dapol site today  :doh:

Quote from: ohlavache on October 02, 2020, 04:10:13 PM
No news from Dapol. Neither by phone or email.
It's a shame !

And did you finally succeed in ordering from abroad?
I don't want to register at Dapol's site for this one train and then reach a dead end ... >:(

I had a closer look at my Dapol Prototype HST yesterday and noticed that most of the coaches have "E" prefixes to the running numbers, but two have "M".

Specifically, Saloon pack 1 (2P-007-001) contains FOs E11000, E11001, and TSOs E12000, E12001
Saloon pack 2 (2P-007-002) contains FOs E11002, M11003, and TSOs E12002, M12003
Buffet pack (2P-007-003) contains (T)RSB E10000 and (T)RUK E10100

For some reason I thought I had remembered that it was the two coaches which were later rebuilt to Royal Train saloons (11001 and 12001) which were "M" prefixed at one time. I had a quick flick through a couple of books but was not able to confirm anything to do with regional allocations except that of the 8 open saloons built, only 6 were re-numbered into the 41xxx and 42xxx HST number range when the set was re-classified as a DEMU, 252001 - the two "Royal" coaches were not renumbered. I might have some other books with more detail but they are up in an attic in the UK on the other side of the world from my current location!

Can anyone with access to better information (or better memories) enlighten me as to what the regional prefixes were and whether Dapol are correct or have used "artistic licence"? Even better, are there any actual recorded set formations? I'm especially interested in the period when the set was tested on the ECML with 41xxx power cars and 11xxx/12xxx/10xxx numbering of the coaches, rather than the WR 252001 era. I know set formations varied but wondered whether the "M" prefixed coaches were ever actually included in the Prototype HST formation or if they were always separately tested in loco hauled rakes? (I have no photographic or other evidence to back this theory up!)

For what it's worth, the renumbering was as follows:

11000 -> 41000 -> ADB975814 Test Car 10, now in New Measurement Train
11001 -> Royal train 2903
11002 -> 41001 -> rebuilt as production TF 41170
11003 -> 41002 -> rebuilt as production TF 41174 later converted to TS 43257
12000 -> 42000 -> rebuilt as production TF 41172, later converted to TS 42355
12001 -> Royal train 2904
12002 -> 42001 -> rebuilt as production TF 41171, later converted to TS 42353
12003 -> 42002 -> rebuilt as production TF 41173, later converted to TS 42356
10000 -> 40000 -> departmental 975984 now in New Measurement Train
10100 -> 40500 -> departmental 977089, scrapped in early 1990s

Thanks in advance if anyone is able to help!

Cheers,

Tom.

(also crossposted to RMWeb https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102998-prototype-hst-announced-for-n/page/9/#comments (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102998-prototype-hst-announced-for-n/page/9/#comments))

Not sure if this answers your questions but I found this very interesting website:
Testing the prototype HST in 1973
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm)
Consist of prototype HST
http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm)

Thanks, I'd looked at that website before but forgot to check again this time. It certainly seems to confirm the M11003 and M12003 prefixes. Interesting photos of the various formations through the testing and in-service phases with all sorts of different formations and locations for the catering vehicles within the set.

Quote from: Ferkeltaxe on November 16, 2020, 11:12:26 PM
Not sure if this answers your questions but I found this very interesting website:
Testing the prototype HST in 1973
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm)
Consist of prototype HST
http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm)

Hopefully someone can ahead light on formations
I believe Dapol's prefixes to be correct and your memories also correct.
Whilst I believe it to be incorrect that the royals once we're Midland coaches I too have seen that written down somewhere.

The MK3 was already underdevelopment when it was decided the HST prototype would be ordered with the two M coaches being ordered first. It was decided that the HST coaches would be delivered first despite being ordered later to allow testing of the HST concept.

The BR Lot numbers were as follows
Lot 30832 TSO 12003
Lot 30833 FO 11003
...
Lot 30847 TSO 12000-12002
Lot 30848 FO 11000-11002
Lot 30849 RSB 10000
Lot 30850 RUK 10100

The regional prefixes were based on the region they were sent to for testing.
The eastern region being chosen for HST testing due to the high speed stretches.
The other two coaches were used on the midland region in conventional locomotive hauled trains.
The HST testing was more complex and suffered from delays whilst the mk3's were a success and proved themselves.

At this stage all the coaches are the same and could have been used interchangeably in theory but would behave been geographically seperate (the HST being based at Neville Hill)

Renumbering happened around the same time as the train was overhauled in 1974 at which point it became set 252001.

I suspect the reason the two 003 coaches were kept was that they were available for testing the revised 3 phase electrical supply alongside the MK1 generator coach ADB975325 whilst the HST was being tested elsewhere. (Helped by being closer to Derby). It was not until the overhaul that the 3 phase electrical system was fitted to the power cars.
Others may be able to confirm if there were enough interiors for all coaches as the HST spent a long time running about with missing tables, again the M's would have needed interiors as they were running in service trains alongside mk2's.

When renumbered they gained Western prefixes as they were destined for crew training on the western region as the production sets had been authorised.

Thanks CaleyDave, that's all very interesting and helps enormously to clear things up - especially that the 003 / "M" prefix coaches were actually ordered first and have earlier lot numbers.

There are precious few photos online of the prototype Mk 3 coaches being loco hauled - this one on Train Testing is maybe the only one I have seen: http://www.traintesting.com/images/Mk1%20buffet%20lighter.jpg (http://www.traintesting.com/images/Mk1%20buffet%20lighter.jpg). Presumably then the FO ahead of the RKB is M11003. As they are in the middle of a formation of Mk2 aircons this must predate the modification to a 3-phase 415v supply.

Quote from: CaleyDave on November 16, 2020, 11:58:00 PM
Hopefully someone can ahead light on formations
I believe Dapol's prefixes to be correct and your memories also correct.
Whilst I believe it to be incorrect that the royals once we're Midland coaches I too have seen that written down somewhere.

The MK3 was already underdevelopment when it was decided the HST prototype would be ordered with the two M coaches being ordered first. It was decided that the HST coaches would be delivered first despite being ordered later to allow testing of the HST concept.

The BR Lot numbers were as follows
Lot 30832 TSO 12003
Lot 30833 FO 11003
...
Lot 30847 TSO 12000-12002
Lot 30848 FO 11000-11002
Lot 30849 RSB 10000
Lot 30850 RUK 10100

The regional prefixes were based on the region they were sent to for testing.
The eastern region being chosen for HST testing due to the high speed stretches.
The other two coaches were used on the midland region in conventional locomotive hauled trains.
The HST testing was more complex and suffered from delays whilst the mk3's were a success and proved themselves.

At this stage all the coaches are the same and could have been used interchangeably in theory but would behave been geographically seperate (the HST being based at Neville Hill)

Renumbering happened around the same time as the train was overhauled in 1974 at which point it became set 252001.

I suspect the reason the two 003 coaches were kept was that they were available for testing the revised 3 phase electrical supply alongside the MK1 generator coach ADB975325 whilst the HST was being tested elsewhere. (Helped by being closer to Derby). It was not until the overhaul that the 3 phase electrical system was fitted to the power cars.
Others may be able to confirm if there were enough interiors for all coaches as the HST spent a long time running about with missing tables, again the M's would have needed interiors as they were running in service trains alongside mk2's.

When renumbered they gained Western prefixes as they were destined for crew training on the western region as the production sets had been authorised.

Just replying to some earlier comments in the thread about ordering from overseas - I have just placed an online order for several items from the Dapol website for delivery to Australia. I've already purchased several of the Prototype HST packs (and didn't have any trouble arranging overseas delivery - they were ordered as pre-orders). I don't really need the Departmental yellow end power cars but succumbed to temptation and added them to my order. I then found I wasn't able to obtain a shipping quote or checkout!

Once I removed the Departmental Prototype HST power cars from the order, I was able to proceed, checkout and pay. I wonder why Dapol are being funny about allowing these to be ordered from overseas?