I bought a Bachmann/Farish 8F, but it turned out to be a terrible runner so I took it back to the shop. They didn't have any more in stock, so I swapped it for a Class 44 'Peak'. This ran round for a couple of minutes then ground to a halt with one bogie completely seized up.
Don't know why I bother with GF stuff, it looks nice but never seems to work properly first time. I sent Bachmann a spleen-venting e-mail about this latest fiasco, concluding as follows :-
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Looking at various online forums, it would seem that I am far from being the only customer to have had this kind of experience with GF locos. In fact, GF are widely regarded as having significant quality control issues with their Chinese-made loco mechanisms, which Bachmann Europe appear to be doing little if anything to address. I even came across a thread on the N Gauge Forum which seems to indicate that the problem I encountered with the Class 44 is commonplace not just with this type of loco but with this one particular model. Are Bachmann aware of this? If not, why not? And if you are aware, why haven't you recalled these faulty products from dealers?
Now, to be fair, these are mass-produced hobby items and not hand-made museum-quality replicas, so the occasional fault is inevitably going to crop up. But the faults with GF locos seem to be very much more than occasional. In comparison with the quality and reliability of German or Japanese or American N-Gauge manufacturers, your record is very poor and getting worse. You would no doubt say that if you were charging the same prices as Trix or Fleischmann, or if you were getting the economies of scale from selling to their size of market, then you too could deliver top-notch quality, and I'm sure this is true. But I'm equally sure that even when selling at UK prices to the UK market, there is a minimum quality level which you should realistically be able to aim for, but which you are singularly failing to achieve. This isn't good enough or anywhere near. If you were operating in anything other than a hobby market you would probably have had Trading Standards taking you to court by now. As it is, you're exploiting the goodwill and tolerance of hobby enthusiasts in order to sell them products with an unacceptable level of manufacturing and design faults. Can we hold out any hope of improvement, or will this just carry on until the last N-Gauge punter has finally given up on you?
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Am I being unreasonable, or does anyone else feel like this?
PW
Well, you have certainly given them it with both barrels PW. Very well written too. I look forward to reading their reply - if any is given. To be honest though, apart from my trouble (nightmare) with getting a good B1, all of my other BacFar locos have been great.
Marty
Quote from: PennineWagons on May 29, 2012, 07:43:37 PM
I bought a Bachmann/Farish 8F, but it turned out to be a terrible runner so I took it back to the shop. They didn't have any more in stock, so I swapped it for a Class 44 'Peak'. This ran round for a couple of minutes then ground to a halt with one bogie completely seized up.
Don't know why I bother with GF stuff, it looks nice but never seems to work properly first time. I sent Bachmann a spleen-venting e-mail about this latest fiasco, concluding as follows :-
--------------------------------------------------
Looking at various online forums, it would seem that I am far from being the only customer to have had this kind of experience with GF locos. In fact, GF are widely regarded as having significant quality control issues with their Chinese-made loco mechanisms, which Bachmann Europe appear to be doing little if anything to address. I even came across a thread on the N Gauge Forum which seems to indicate that the problem I encountered with the Class 44 is commonplace not just with this type of loco but with this one particular model. Are Bachmann aware of this? If not, why not? And if you are aware, why haven't you recalled these faulty products from dealers?
Now, to be fair, these are mass-produced hobby items and not hand-made museum-quality replicas, so the occasional fault is inevitably going to crop up. But the faults with GF locos seem to be very much more than occasional. In comparison with the quality and reliability of German or Japanese or American N-Gauge manufacturers, your record is very poor and getting worse. You would no doubt say that if you were charging the same prices as Trix or Fleischmann, or if you were getting the economies of scale from selling to their size of market, then you too could deliver top-notch quality, and I'm sure this is true. But I'm equally sure that even when selling at UK prices to the UK market, there is a minimum quality level which you should realistically be able to aim for, but which you are singularly failing to achieve. This isn't good enough or anywhere near. If you were operating in anything other than a hobby market you would probably have had Trading Standards taking you to court by now. As it is, you're exploiting the goodwill and tolerance of hobby enthusiasts in order to sell them products with an unacceptable level of manufacturing and design faults. Can we hold out any hope of improvement, or will this just carry on until the last N-Gauge punter has finally given up on you?
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Am I being unreasonable, or does anyone else feel like this?
PW
Hi PW
It is of course too late for anyone's opinions to have any sway if you have already sent the e-mail, but do remember that for every bad experience such as yours there are many times more good experiences that are of a silent majority that go unpublished.
Firstly, It would be as well when you start to talk about "commonplace" problems being discussed on Groups such as this to consider how many people have actually posted the "problems" (five or ten maybe?) in the context of the average Farish production run which is 1008 of each livery application. Maybe they actually have a failure rate as low as only one or two percent which yes, is a pain if it is you, but personally I do not see as unreasonable for a mass produced item.
You mention the 44 specifically. (Ironically mine is currently "in dock" having "spat" a driveshaft!). Do remember that it shares an identical chassis with the 45 and 46, and they have probably by now made seven or eight thousand of all types - I am not aware that there has been an excessive failure rate? Also in a generic sense the chassis is the same as the post Bachmann takeover Chinese 25, 31, 37, 47 and 56 chassis and they must have made tens of thousands of those. Most will say they are generally very smooth and the very occasional split gear aside, reliable (including me).
Secondly, you speak of "Design faults". I don't think you can generalise. Personally I think you need to have specific examples of what is of poor design, and why. I actually think that design of Farish locos, both diesel and steam is very good indeed, and getting better (Having seen the Blue Pullman prototype and forthcoming WD in action - truly awesome). Assembly is to me where most issues appear to arise.
Thirdly, again, I would humbly suggest it is better dealing in hard facts. Unless you can back up their record being "poor" and "getting worse" with facts rather than what must be somewhat anecdotal and based on the vocal views of a small minority on online Groups, it will likely carry little weight.
To go as far as suggesting Trading Standards would be involved were it not a hobby product and their exploitation of modellers' goodwill is also for me going somewhat too far.
So, my experience? Very different. I have a very significant number of Farish diesels and steam, my failure rate has been negligible. A 66 and 108 with a split gear (each long out of warranty) - easily fixed and out of seventeen new tender-driven locos the only problem of any kind I have had was a broken drawbar and that was down to my ham-fistedness. The 24 and 37 are superb and I have three 08's and an 04 - all little gems.
To balance it, my experience of Dapol is equally good. One Ivatt tank spat a valve-gear rivet, the model was in warranty and replaced and a 26 which had a partial failure of the lighting circuit, replaced personally by Dave Jones of Dapol - great Customer service.
So, I am sorry not to be able to agree with your approach, but having said all that it is entirely your privilege to do as you have.
Regards
Roy
P.S. Sorry, forgot a Dapol B1 - motor burn out - replaced.
Have to agree with Roys post in general and say i have a collection of Farish locos....
24s 25 37s 47 101s 108s 150s 04 08......and apart from split gears on a 20 have not had a single problem with any of them....i count myself lucky...sure.....but i think it also shows that not all Farish products are of a sub-standard design or manufacture.
I don't think you are being unreasonable in wanting locos to run well out of the box
and being angry/disapointed when they don't but i do feel your critisism in some areas may have gone a little too far.
Will be interesting to hear Farish response though........
I've got a GF class 40, it ran like my old
Nan did, I had to cut through the bogey frame plastics in the centre of each bogey which released the pressure from poor manufacturing, she speeds round now all be it a bit noisily as the gears are a lot looser with this modification!
The problem is Bachmann don't have any real opposition in the British N gauge market, I believe they know that the other major supplier have problems with their products.
For example Bachmann churned out a load of poor quality N scale products for the American market but the large amount of American modellers refused to buy the stuff, after a while with brands like Atlas, Kato and Lifelike to compete against Bachmann finally lifted their game and produced an acceptable product, in some ways it was to late as the damage had already been done.
I think you did the right thing by sending them an email and believe many others should do the same, Americans wont put up with rubbish so why should the British?.
I tried getting into British N gauge twice and gave the idea away because of poor quality products.
Personally, I believe that Dapol are moving ahead of GF in locomotive quality.
The last 2 that I have bought ( a Hymek and a Class 121 Bubblecar) have both been excellent performers.
I think Roy has it about right.
Yes you've been unlucky but I have to say that I've had not one problem with any of my Farish stock that I brought brand new, 37's, 47's, 101's. Even the second hand HST sets that I have, have given me no problems.
On the other hand when Dapol HST's first came out I had three sets, all ending up going back for refunds. Two smoked, one just stopped, all three within three months. Fortunately enough I had TCS "Goof Proof" DCC chips fitted so I had them replaced FOC. The only other Dapol loco that I've had, a 58, is currently at BR Lines, it stopped dead three days after the 6 month warranty ran out. That doesn't mean that all Dapol locos are bad. Their HST model won MR Model of the Year 2012, others swear by the quality of Dapol loco.
I'd be surprised if Farish respond to you rant in a way you might be hoping for.
As for the bit about Trading Standards - I think Mircosoft would be first in the queue, but you still use a computer which I'm guessing, probably has a Windows Operating system that always need updates to fix something or other. When did Microsoft ever get it right all the time.
Quote from: Jack9465 on May 29, 2012, 09:47:39 PM
As for the bit about Trading Standards - I think Mircosoft would be first in the queue, but you still use a computer which I'm guessing, probably has a Windows Operating system that always need updates to fix something or other. When did Microsoft ever get it right all the time.
Right on the money Jack thats why I have been using Linux for the past 4 years :thumbsup:
In a cleft stick here, as I agree with you and with Roy. Out of the 60 plus bits of motive power I've collected I've had roughly a 10% failure rate which overall could be considered unacceptable quality control. BUT, this was spread over Dapol, Farish and Peco so I wouldn't consider one manufacture to be to blame. I think your missive contained too much conjecture v fact and would also be interested in your reply if you receive one.
My opinion of Farish is they tend to have better motors/running qualities but don't have the detail of Dapol. However, they are improving in this respect. One look at the EP Blue Pullman will show their progress.
In all my time on the forum, there have only been 2 or 3 moans about the class 44 (one was me) and yes, it appears there may have been a duff batch with sloppy geartrains, but my replacement was no trouble at all.
I work on the principle one fault is chance :-\, two faults are coincidence :-X and three faults are modus operandi >:( (i.e. three strikes and you are out) on separate occasions. Dapol has two strikes and Bachmann also has two strikes (one is for their customer service). Not good when I have only bought two Dapol products and two Bachmann products and these are not even steamers
So I have a lot of sympathy with you PW and also agree with ORB as I am on the verge of changing all my roadsigns around and going predominantly continental.
I am waiting to get a long term running report on the Desiros from other members of this forum before deciding to buy one - and this will be my approach if I intend to buy anything from Dapol and Farish. The only exception is that I am taking advantage of Rails's price for the Blue Pullman and gambling that the train will be fine.
In contrast, I have a number of new and used Kato trains and locos - zero strikes for the new stock and zero strikes for the used from eBay ;D
Regarding Farish responding to a rant . . . I sent them one reasoned e mail and ended up with an appallingly condescending email and then chose not to reply to my second reasoned email. So it will be interesting to see whether your approach gets the results!
And I moved from PCs to Macs last year and noticed an immediate positive improvement in my stress levels!
Quote from: port perran on May 29, 2012, 09:42:10 PM
Personally, I believe that Dapol are moving ahead of GF in locomotive quality.
The last 2 that I have bought ( a Hymek and a Class 121 Bubblecar) have both been excellent performers.
Not sure I agree.
Dapol have lifted their game for sure and there is generally little in it, but for me Farish still has the edge, especially with steam locos and unquestionably in quality of finish.
I have a Dapol A4, it is very nice indeed, with some lovely touches like the speedo and lubricator drives, but in terms of sheer finesse, whisper quiet running and awesome finish the Farish A1 still shades it.
Compare the two manufacturers B1's and perfectly acceptable though the Dapol one is, the Farish one just blows it away....
Diesels, though, much less in it. Dapol ones do still seem a bit suceptible to PCB failures, but as I said previously that has to be taken in the context of the many happy punters out there (And the 67 and 26 in particular are both beauts).
Regards
Roy
If I hadn't changed to a Mac, I would be first in line with the class action against Microsoft. Windows IS the reason I switched. Not my iPod, not the Apple brand as such, but being SICK of Windows. (Angry thread?)
As far as locos go, I have been pretty happy with all of my Farish and Dapol stuff with a couple of minor issues (a Dapol Voyager that derails, and some older stock that isn't so reliable like my Farish 73 that stutters along. Biggest problem I had was with a Farish 37 that shorted on its test run and melted its roof.
There has been some fantastic stock of late... the Farish 4CEP, my Farish Blue 47 035, the Farish 108s and Dapol 121s, and my Dapol HST. Of course, my old Blue 40 is noisy, but still going strong.
Out of all my 60ish bits of traction, I think the failure rate has been OK, with only one major out of the box malfunction. I do think compared to many I have been lucky. But I am probably also fairly easily pleased.
I think it is fair to expect Farish to pay attention to unhappy customers, but at the same time it is difficult for them to see the problem as a high failure rate coupled with poor QC (as I think the OP seems to suggest) when Farish will have statistics on how many returns are made and they will see more of the bigger picture.
I also think it is a bit dangerous to assume that a thread bemoaning unreliability out of the box as proof.
I do think it would be helpful for Farish to publish failure rates and perhaps release info on what improvements they have in the pipeline. That would seem to be good PR. Dapol seemed to take a lead in that with their new guarantee. Let's hope Farish respond with some information, and a fix for the poor running 44.
There is no excuse for patronizing replies though. That would wind me up big time.
Half of the problem is simple unfortunately. You can have beautifully reliable UK outline models for the small market involved providing you don't mind them doubling the price 8)
Alan
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 29, 2012, 11:22:37 PM
Half of the problem is simple unfortunately. You can have beautifully reliable UK outline models for the small market involved providing you don't mind them doubling the price 8)
Alan
And in some ways the 00 market kinda proves that. N gaugers get half the size of loco for about the same price as a 00 model. Market forces.
I also think everyone has different experiences with one brand or the other, in my case I had two duds out of every three locos I bought, IMO money is hard enough to come by in the first place and this is by no means a cheap hobby, its been 17 years since I first tried British N Gauge and IMO there has been some improvement in quality but no enough for me to stay modelling British.
My other argument is if German, French and American modellers get better quality equipment why cant the British, OK some of the other stuff is more expensive but I for one would have been happy to pay a little more for reliability, its pretty sad when 25 year old Minitrix locos are so sought after because of reliability issues with modern products.
I think the only thing to do is to keep returning faulty locos to the shop either for a refund or replacement,until the number of faulty returns have an effect on the manufacturers bottom line I doubt they'll take much notice.
Personally I'd prefer better build and running quality to all the fragile details on locos nowadays,yes it's nice to have highly accurate models but not much use if they can only sit and sulk in a siding.
A little while ago I went to a shop selling Farish locos and tried several different steam locos out at the shop,the majority were poor runners right out of the box and I eventually purchased a Jubilee when I could see it was okay.I'd already returned a Jinty and a Tornado.
I can only assume that the faulty ones would just be put back on sale for someone else to try.This and another shop won't sell Dapol locos anymore because they've both had Dapol locos get lost after returning them.
Allan
Don't know about GF or Dapol as do 'continental' but with regard to complaining, I'm rubbish at it. I either say nothing or just have a little winge. My girlfriend and especially my sister go straight for the jugular and things tend to get done.
Refunds, keep old one and we'll send a new one, vouchers to keep you stum.
Not saying you are being unreasonable but its a sad world we live in and being unreasonable and even nasty seems to work. You might even get something free! :)
Cheers Weave
Speaking to the large retailers, the return rates appear to be broadly similar for both Farish and Dapol. I am not aware of any design faults in N gauge locos on the scale of the Heljan Class 17 motor problem in 00 gauge. There are certain more specific issues such as the tendency to wheels to lock on the current Farish steamers or some of the older Dapol tank locos to shed their coupling rods.
The failure rate is a consequence of outsourcing production to China and not testing anything before dispatching it. Manufacturing to higher tolerances or testing to weed out badly assembled models would increase the price of the models.
To me the issue is how failures are dealt with. Since most models are bought from shops, your contract is with them. All shops have a legal obligation to replace or refund faulty goods. The only time this approach has let me down was with a Peco 2251 which was the last one in stock.
In this case I returned it to Peco who repaired it free of charge. Rather than getting angry about a failed loco, I prefer to judge manufacturers on how they handle such events. In my case I have always ended up with a working loco in the end and I am satisfied with that.
I purchased a Graham Farish Warship off eBay a few months ago. It came from the clearance arm of a toy and hobby retailer in Leicester, and was brand new and an absolute bargain. I ran it in on DC before converting it to DCC when it immediately burnt out a chip as soon as it ran with the lights switched on. Apart from the slightly long time it took to be returned, the loco was fixed, tested & the chip was replaced free of charge. Absolutely no complaints with the other locos of theirs and looking forward to getting my Blue Pullman!!!
I've also bought several Dapol locos, again off eBay;
1. A superb 9F that runs like a dream, even though it only gets its power from the tender pick-ups (the wires from the engine broke)
2. A Britannia Tornado, again runs like a dream.
3. A Class 121 railcar which stopped running whilst being run in, never to move again (seller refunded with no problems)
4. An A4 'Wild Swan' which was very noisy, the drive clicked and one of the drive wheels wobbled. Replaced with another, which although it's not as good as the 9F or the Britannia is getting better with running.
As other people have said, the odd faulty item will always get through with modern manufacturing techniques. Most manufacturers are quite happy to deal with faults and look after their reputations.
Quote from: Jack9465 on May 30, 2012, 05:42:14 AM
And in some ways the 00 market kinda proves that. N gaugers get half the size of loco for about the same price as a 00 model. Market forces.
Half the height, half the width, half the depth - ⅛ of the size in fact !
Quote from: oldrailbug on May 30, 2012, 07:36:14 AM
I also think everyone has different experiences with one brand or the other,
On an individual basis that must be true, but on a whole market basis I would be surprised if there is too much variation.
Quote from: oldrailbug on May 30, 2012, 07:36:14 AM
My other argument is if German, French and American modellers get better quality equipment why cant the British, OK some of the other stuff is more expensive but I for one would have been happy to pay a little more for reliability, its pretty sad when 25 year old Minitrix locos are so sought after because of reliability issues with modern products.
In a roundabout way you have answered your own question - better quality for a higher price. It certainly isn't a general rule that foreign models are cheaper (they can be) or better quality (I have got/seen some that are no where near the quality of current UK models).
I wouldn't expect a model bought off Ebay to be necessarily trouble free, but then I wouldn't pay as much as I would if buying "new" directly from a trader. I know if I buy direct from a trader that I have a relatively easy option if something goes wrong (repairs/replacement/refund as appropriate for the circumstances).
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 29, 2012, 11:22:37 PM
Half of the problem is simple unfortunately. You can have beautifully reliable UK outline models for the small market involved providing you don't mind them doubling the price 8)
Alan
I have a hunch - and it can only be a hunch because I know almost nothing about these things - that this is correct. However perhaps someone who knows, can expand on this somewhat! My head is a mass of ideas that I cant fit together because I dont know.
Firstly I'll start with the few problems I've had and corroborate them with internet forum problems.
A Farish Black 5- the old one that wasnt DCC ready- the wheels on the tender werent going round and the fellows at Norwood Junction fixed it for me. I have seen quite a few posts about this on various forums.
A Farish 125 br blue, the one with a motor at both ends - the motor at one end burned out- but it is very very very old and BR lines has told me that only luck will fix it (nned a donor)!
One of my Kato Eurostars has a slightly dodgy coupling between 2 of the coaches makes it derail sometimes, and that makes me paranoid about all the other Kato stuff so I watch them like a hawk, but no problems. - again i've seen internet posts about this. This is fixable i'm sure- at the moment i run it as a 4 car rather than 8 car train, but i ought to source a coupling somewhere.
Sorry back to the point, my smattering of snippets of knowledge and opinion that i cant put together:
the fellows(and ladies) at the Signal Box in Kent tell me its the build quality of the continental stuff is so good- but then they would say that because they specialize in it
that Minitrix and Flieschmann rolling stock by and large gets through their own continental first radius (7 3/4 inch!)
i picked up some beer glass logic that UK outline being that little bit bigger has to have bigger wheels and somehow thats an issue for running
that the manufacturers are going for looks rather than performance- and apparently that is true in OO as well
that the continentals and the japanese 'run' their locomotives more than we do
continental stuff is more expensive
japanese stuff is kept low (not THAT low!!!) in price because of its large internal market
I'm not saying each point is true, it might all be cobblers, but I cant help feeling that it is something to do with the tolerances and the radii that the model will go round- because that appears to be what the continental and japanese stock have in common- continental first radius for the continental models and a huge tolerance for Kato (which stipulates 315mm or 12 1/2 but will chug round my peco seconds (10 3/8) without much trouble)
In my sort of twisted and ignorant logic, i'm concluding that because (and i know to some this will be blasphemy to use the word) Hornby, Bacmann OO, Bachmann Farish and Dapol have laid down the ground rule that they can stipulate a minimum radius greater than first, it sort of allows them to build models with smaller tolerances, but because of those smaller tolerances they become more unreliable.
Now i'm not arguing for narrow radii, merely that because the trains are unsuitable for them they are worse runners or if not worse runners have a higher failure rate. I know this is sophistry but without knowing more about these things that is my hunch.
So i ask to those in the know (rather than myself who has constructed a sophists argument from half truths garnered from here there and everywhere), what is it that needs to improve that will double the price and make the models very reliable?
Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 04:30:28 PM
A Farish 125 br blue, the one with a motor at both ends - the motor at one end burned out- but it is very very very old and BR lines has told me that only luck will fix it (nned a donor)!
Easy enough to get but they are pricy and it will run like crap anyway. Farish changed the design early on a for a reason !
Quote
One of my Kato Eurostars has a slightly dodgy coupling between 2 of the coaches makes it derail sometimes, and that makes me paranoid about all the other Kato stuff so I watch them like a hawk, but no problems. - again i've seen internet posts about this. This is fixable i'm sure- at the moment i run it as a 4 car rather than 8 car train, but i ought to source a coupling somewhere.
Power car or between passenger cars. In the latter case its worth having a glance at it and seeing if it has flash on it or something that catches a bit. In normal form those couplers will run a full length (20 odd car) eurostar with the motor at the back around 9" curves at a scale 100mph+... 8)
Quote
the fellows(and ladies) at the Signal Box in Kent tell me its the build quality of the continental stuff is so good- but then they would say that because they specialize in it
Some of it. Some of the Minitrix stuff is very toylike (eg the ICE set). The Fleischmann stuff is priced accordingly however.
Quote
i picked up some beer glass logic that UK outline being that little bit bigger has to have bigger wheels and somehow thats an issue for running
Shouldn't be. An the wheel sizes don't vary that much, in fact they are much the same.
Quote
that the manufacturers are going for looks rather than performance- and apparently that is true in OO as well
that the continentals and the japanese 'run' their locomotives more than we do
That I can believe. One reason the Japanese stuff is engineered the way it is, including the replaceable small breakable bits is because in many environments it has a "box->table->play->box" life cycle. A lot of the European stuff also emphasizes functionality and in Germany especially the "tech toy" side of it - sensor tracks, automation, etc
Quote
japanese stuff is kept low (not THAT low!!!) in price because of its large internal market
And (for internal consumption) they are much closer to China !
Market size makes a huge difference. You do a large amount of R&D, you produce a set of prototypes, you produce a set of tools, you clear all of the artwork with the rights owners for modern stuff. Then you take that huge up front cost and divide it by the number of units sold. In plastic models like death metal *volume* is everything.
Quote
what is it that needs to improve that will double the price and make the models very reliable?
Higher prices means you can spend more on the design and on fixes, on the quality of the build and in some case the choice and quality of the materials. Chinese workers are like everywhere else, pay peanuts and you get monkeys.
So higher prices means for example more metal in the chassis. It means you've got more scope to run the prototype for 3 months and go back to the drawing board. It means you can use a better quality motor. It means you can use stronger more expensive alloys for coupling rods. It means you can use the right plastics for the gears.
Thus a decent model will have a good lump of metal for the chassis giving good traction and power pick up. It will have self lubricating gears made with plastics that don't split. It will be driven by a high quality motor that has been tested for thousands of miles of running not a cheap can motor with brushes softer than andrex bog paper. They are often also simpler - the complexity like extra gear chains used to slow cheap nasty motors goes away. Tricky power pickup arrangements are replaced by weight etc.
The CJM chassis is pretty much of that ilk, at a price point to match.
Another very well engineered chassis is the Union Mills one. That's a no-nonsense "right motor, lots of weight, no complexity" chassis. As a bit of engineering I find it beautiful - there really is nothing left to take away or simplify further.
I just wish he'd include a bit of space for a DCC decoder 8)
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 30, 2012, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 04:30:28 PM
A Farish 125 br blue, the one with a motor at both ends - the motor at one end burned out- but it is very very very old and BR lines has told me that only luck will fix it (nned a donor)!
Easy enough to get but they are pricy and it will run like crap anyway. Farish changed the design early on a for a reason !
Quote
One of my Kato Eurostars has a slightly dodgy coupling between 2 of the coaches makes it derail sometimes, and that makes me paranoid about all the other Kato stuff so I watch them like a hawk, but no problems. - again i've seen internet posts about this. This is fixable i'm sure- at the moment i run it as a 4 car rather than 8 car train, but i ought to source a coupling somewhere.
Power car or between passenger cars. In the latter case its worth having a glance at it and seeing if it has flash on it or something that catches a bit. In normal form those couplers will run a full length (20 odd car) eurostar with the motor at the back around 9" curves at a scale 100mph+... 8)
Yes yes, am on the lookout for a more modern br blue 125! and the eurostar couple is between 2 coaches, the thing has come apart and needs glueing back amongst other things i think, i can put it all together but very gingerly and it isnt stable
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 30, 2012, 04:50:55 PM
Higher prices means you can spend more on the design and on fixes, on the quality of the build and in some case the choice and quality of the materials. Chinese workers are like everywhere else, pay peanuts and you get monkeys.
So higher prices means for example more metal in the chassis. It means you've got more scope to run the prototype for 3 months and go back to the drawing board. It means you can use a better quality motor. It means you can use stronger more expensive alloys for coupling rods. It means you can use the right plastics for the gears.
Thus a decent model will have a good lump of metal for the chassis giving good traction and power pick up. It will have self lubricating gears made with plastics that don't split. It will be driven by a high quality motor that has been tested for thousands of miles of running not a cheap can motor with brushes softer than andrex bog paper. They are often also simpler - the complexity like extra gear chains used to slow cheap nasty motors goes away. Tricky power pickup arrangements are replaced by weight etc.
The CJM chassis is pretty much of that ilk, at a price point to match.
Another very well engineered chassis is the Union Mills one. That's a no-nonsense "right motor, lots of weight, no complexity" chassis. As a bit of engineering I find it beautiful - there really is nothing left to take away or simplify further.
I just wish he'd include a bit of space for a DCC decoder 8)
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!
I would have thought if the design didnt have to accommodate small radius, then more reliable running should result, not less.
Wide tolerances, in manufacturing terms, does not mean a good end product.
Being able to narrow down what the chassis has to do should enable a better design.
But i am not sure there is a link as Kato has proven that tight curves AND high reliability can be done.
It is all down to cost and the relationship between investment and market return. Bigger market = higher development investment = better model trains
The problem isn't as simple as doubling the price of a loco though, because your market shrinks as the price goes up, and your return on investment may actually go down. It is a very delicate relationship and manufacturers will shy away from pushing prices up as they know fewer of us will buy and potentially reduce their total return.
Getting manufacture done in China is also a complex affair. The reduction in costs can be eaten into by complexities in getting what you design built correctly.
I think that the UK model industry is getting to grips with those issues, and is hopefully using factories that can do what they need to. These are not necessarily the cheapest factories (which may be most attractive to start with, and could be the ones not full with Kato orders), and finding the right ones may take time. We should see improved quality coming out of China, after all, they can do it for Kato! It is my hope that this will mean that our models have improved quality and that prices dont suffer for it. Hopefully the new Dapol guarantee is a reflection that they think they have got it right.
But in short, for the UK sector of the market, it is all being driven by the economy of the market size and the need to minimize development costs and use the cheaper factories.
Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 05:12:40 PM
Yes yes, am on the lookout for a more modern br blue 125! and the eurostar couple is between 2 coaches, the thing has come apart and needs glueing back amongst other things i think, i can put it all together but very gingerly and it isnt stable
They can normally be fixed even if the plastic pin on the coach has snapped as you can drill it out and replace it with the same diameter plastic rod. I'm not sure who would do Kato repairs like that in the UK though.
I don't know if the newer chassis fit the older HST maybe Dr Al does. If so that might be a way to get a blue 125.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 30, 2012, 05:43:58 PM
Quote from: tgv_obsessed on May 30, 2012, 05:12:40 PM
Yes yes, am on the lookout for a more modern br blue 125! and the eurostar couple is between 2 coaches, the thing has come apart and needs glueing back amongst other things i think, i can put it all together but very gingerly and it isnt stable
I don't know if the newer chassis fit the older HST maybe Dr Al does. If so that might be a way to get a blue 125.
BR lines says it doesnt, and i believe him! also he says much as you do- dont bother with the older no dummy car one- look out for the newer hst, even if it a non runner because thats a better bet
I think the original poster was right to be upset but might get a better response by being polite to start off with. He could always get rude later ;) I have always found Farish and Dapol very helpful.
I think that part of the problem with returns is that quite a few people who get faulty locos fix them themselves to save the trouble of sending them back, that doesn't give the manufacturers a true picture of all the faulty locos, then there are collectors who never run them at all and some folk who don't mind noisy locos with wobbles!
I do have some sympathy for Farish and Dapol, some modellers don't look after their models properly, fail to lubricate them, over lubricate them, drop them, have bad track work and the wrong controllers. They get locos returned with bits of scenery in the gears and white glue on the wheels.
I have actually been to the Bachmann warehouse in Barwell, to return a loco in person as I was in the area. While I waited for a replacement loco, I chatted to the man doing the repairs, he was scratching his head over a 00 loco, he tested it and tested it and could find nothing wrong with it.
For anyone thinking of visiting Bachmann's headquarters, I think I was quite lucky to be let in, I knew the name of person in charge of repairs and they made an exception in my case because I was due to fly to Africa in a few days time. It wasn't very exciting anyway, just a warehouse.
Regards
Veronica
i have started off another thread for the Eurostar issues
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=5932.msg66230#msg66230 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=5932.msg66230#msg66230)
Quote from: Mustermark on May 30, 2012, 05:20:18 PM
I would have thought if the design didnt have to accommodate small radius, then more reliable running should result, not less.
Wide tolerances, in manufacturing terms, does not mean a good end product.
Being able to narrow down what the chassis has to do should enable a better design.
But i am not sure there is a link as Kato has proven that tight curves AND high reliability can be done.
even though I agree with you that narrowing down what a chassis has to do CAN lead to better design, it can also be used to make a cheaper design, which is where the tollerance issue comes in, that is to say the model is only able to do what it is designed to do, and if it can only just about do that, then only a small window of functionality is inbuilt.
Kato doesnt recomend the long passenger trains to go narrower than 315, but they can (i imagine the reason Kato recomend 315 is because their track spacing is rather narrow and 315 may well be desired to stop passing trains hitting each other). So perhaps having a wide tollerance does have an impact on the quality of the product.
Kato could have said to themselves "our trains will hit each other if they pass at radii less than 315, so we'll design them not to be able to and because the design brief is more specific we will therefore produce a better model" , i'm sure being a business they would dearly love to, but one read of the sentence shows the paradox.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 30, 2012, 05:43:58 PM
I don't know if the newer chassis fit the older HST maybe Dr Al does. If so that might be a way to get a blue 125.
All the Poole models chassis are completely interchangable. The first batches of Bachfar are also interchangable. The original chassis can be made to run very well with a few small improvements - fit pickups to the front bogie (easy as the fittings are there, just need the pickup strips) and change out the brass idler gear. Strip down and overhaul and it'll run well and probably last forever.
Many many have never been lubricated, overhauled and also many suffer from worn gearing (why Farish changed from brass to plastics) which can then seize the whole thing up. The armatures are pretty durable thouh, so usually they still work even after this.
Cheers,
Alan