Hi chaps,
What would be the best combination of coaches for a short two or three coach setup?
Cheers
John
Quote from: Jaguar68 on February 10, 2018, 07:39:30 PM
What would be the best combination of coaches for a short two or three coach setup?
At least one brake vehicle (not necessarily a full brake though) and at least some 1st class seating. The rest varied enormously. Some idea of your favoured Region and Era will help, I think.
Cheers, NeMo
I think we also need to know whether you want a 'suburban' set or 'mainline' stuff.
For suburban you could have a a couple of composites and a brake end or 2 brake ends sandwiching a composite (depends on how much parcels/cycles you want to transport)
For mainline I'd probably go with a second open (SO), first corridor (FK) and a brake end (BSK) but, beware, I'm no expert :no:
Sorry, should have mentioned the era modelled. I'm modelling the period between nationalisation and privatisation, but more the late 'i80 tonthe mid '90's, NSE, but with a flavour of preserved railways, so I'm covering a lot of bases.
It will mainly be suburban trains, but with a little preservation too :)
John
:oopssign:
I'd assumed BR transition era :doh:
My tryping is getting worse!!!
Quote from: Jaguar68 on February 10, 2018, 07:57:07 PM
...more the late '80 tonthe mid '90's, NSE, but with a flavour of preserved railways, so I'm covering a lot of bases... It will mainly be suburban trains, but with a little preservation too
Not many loco-hauled 2-3 coach trains operating in southern England during that era, unfortunately. Circa 1985 for example, you'd really see loco-hauled trains on inter-regional services (e.g., between Cardiff and Portsmouth) as well as more remote parts of Wales and Scotland (Class 37s being particularly important on this sort of thing).
One option would be a loco hauling a dead DMU or EMU. There are some kits out there for making non-powered models of such out of Farish Mk1 coaches. Electra Graphics for example have some nice vinyls for this, which can be used on the old (pre-Blue Riband) Mk1s you can pick up cheaply at model train shows.
Cheers, NeMo
As above, NSE was dominated by EMUs for suburban stuff, and the loco hauled trains were a lot longer than 3 coaches.
As such I'd not really worry too much about realism, something like mk2 BSO, TSO, TFO would be reasonable, with a 47 for haulage. All available from Farish.
There were more short services further up north, something like a Regional Railways 37 with some mk2s would have been a more common combination for a short-formed rake.
Quote from: Jaguar68 on February 10, 2018, 07:57:07 PM
I'm modelling the period between nationalisation and privatisation, but more the late 'i80 tonthe mid '90's, NSE, but with a flavour of preserved railways, so I'm covering a lot of bases
Known as the Sectorisation period
A rake of less than four coaches would be restricted to 60mph, unless special permission had been received
As a result they were very rare
Aberdeen - Montrose : Mark 2A TSO-BSO
Glasgow Central / Edinburgh - Manchester : Mark 2C TSO-BFK-TSO (Glasgow portion)
There were hardly no NSE rakes of less than five coaches
However, later in sectorisation replacement loco haulage became quite common, but again the minimum was normally five coaches
Equally, later rakes went for a preference of Open coaches rather than Corridor although sometimes it was unavoidable
For Mark 1 consider the TSO CK BCK
For Mark 2A consider the TSO BSO
Therefore you could easily end up with a mix of Mark 1 and Mark 2A to give you : CK-BSO-TSO
The next issue is a suitable loco in the NSE area
You are therefore probably looking at a Class 33 or Class 47
A Class 37 would be very unlikely, but not impossible
Thanks for your replies chaps. I have a spare Class 33 body in NSE, so the loco is not a problem. The issue is that my layout is only 4'6" by 3', using 315mm Kato unitrack curves which limits the maximum length of the trains I can run. The other alternative may be to run DMUs or EMUs in a rural type scenario.
Regards
John
Some folks use a 'rule' a train should occupy no more than 1/3rd the length of the scenic section. I would say loco +3 or a 4 car DMU/EMU sounds about right for you.
Two car/carraige trains in that period would have been provided DMU or EMU. By the time of your modelling most of the bugs in the 2nd generation DMU & EMUs had been ironed out and so loco-hauled replacements were few and far between.
Most Mk1&2 based trains I've been able to find info on at the begining of your period are at least 7 coaches long.
However, looking at some of the early morning workings there are some short trains, albeit unlikely to be 100% NSE:
00:05 St. Pancras to Derby - CK BCK BG BG (all Mk1)
00:19 Derby to St. Pancras BG SK SK SK BSK (all Mk1)
03:50 Euston to Bletchley BSK BG BG (all Mk1)
If you want to model a secondary express train in just three coaches then try a BSK+CK+SK.
NSE often ran with a higher proportion of first class accomodation but don't get carried away. One of the shorter rakes outlined above would look more realistic than say a BSK FK SK.
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
Quote from: MJKERR on February 10, 2018, 08:29:08 PM
A rake of less than four coaches would be restricted to 60mph, unless special permission had been received
......interesting.....Why so?
Cheers Jon :)
Assuming it's the same as for HST, brakes.
Quote from: Jaguar68 on February 11, 2018, 06:47:09 PM
Thanks for your replies chaps. I have a spare Class 33 body in NSE, so the loco is not a problem.
Indeed not. Opens up some options!
What about building a 4-TC set? I say building, but with Electra Graphics, what we're really talking about is stripping some old Farish bodies and then carefully applying some vinyls! Very straightforward, and for pocket-money prices, you can end up with something that's more than acceptable. A little bit of weathering is useful to take the shine off the vinyl, and if you look at the current NGS Journal, you can see my article on distressing Mk1 coach roofs using nothing more than salt, water, an airbrush, and a few paints.
http://electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk/tf491.htm (http://electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk/tf491.htm)
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class438_1.html (http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class438_1.html)
The thing with the 4-TC set is that it was designed to be hauled or pushed by a Class 33. Mostly working the Bournemouth route, but it's your layout, so if you want to invent another working, then that's 100% fine. It's also a definite option for the NSE era.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on February 12, 2018, 10:29:42 AM
Quote from: Jaguar68 on February 11, 2018, 06:47:09 PM
Thanks for your replies chaps. I have a spare Class 33 body in NSE, so the loco is not a problem.
Indeed not. Opens up some options!
What about building a 4-TC set? I say building, but with Electra Graphics, what we're really talking about is stripping some old Farish bodies and then carefully applying some vinyls! Very straightforward, and for pocket-money prices, you can end up with something that's more than acceptable. A little bit of weathering is useful to take the shine off the vinyl, and if you look at the current NGS Journal, you can see my article on distressing Mk1 coach roofs using nothing more than salt, water, an airbrush, and a few paints.
http://electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk/tf491.htm (http://electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk/tf491.htm)
http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class438_1.html (http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class438_1.html)
The thing with the 4-TC set is that it was designed to be hauled or pushed by a Class 33. Mostly working the Bournemouth route, but it's your layout, so if you want to invent another working, then that's 100% fine. It's also a definite option for the NSE era.
Cheers, NeMo
I seem to recall a Class 33 and 4TC set was used on a Strood-Gillingham shuttle when either Strood or Higham tunnels needed work and through services to London were not possible (I think London services terminated at Higham with bus connection to Strood). I think a Class 33 and 4TC even did rail tours after they were withdrawn from the Bournemouth route (I've seen a picture of the set at Leamington, I think) so there's a way to justify that train appearing just about anywhere.
Thanks again chaps for the replies and suggestions. The 4-TC would work, as the layout is not area specific. All I need to do is source some Mk 1's to do the conversations.
Regards
John
Quote from: Jaguar68 on February 12, 2018, 08:05:48 PM
All I need to do is source some Mk 1's to do the conversations.
Will they travel at full chat?
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Quote from: Jaguar68 on February 12, 2018, 08:05:48 PM
Thanks again chaps for the replies and suggestions. The 4-TC would work, as the layout is not area specific. All I need to do is source some Mk 1's to do the conversions.
Model train shows are worth visiting for all sorts of reasons, but you can often find vintage Mk1s kicking about for under a tenner. Those'd be perfect for this. I used nail polish remover to clean the paintwork off the bodies (once removed from the roof and chassis, of course).
Hattons and such offer older Mk1s but the prices they ask are a bit silly -- I certainly wouldn't be spending 17 quid on a pre-Blue Riband coach that was going to be stripped down anyways!
Cheers, NeMo
Bloody autocorrect!!!
I will have a look out for some Mk1's at local shows. 17 quid for items to refurbish is a little steep!!!
I've been reading the book BR blue 5 Passengers & Parcels by John Deadman which contains a lot of class 33 haulage around the Southampton/New Forest Area. Blue Grey mk1s on cross country services are usually in the formation SO, BSK, CK, SO - putting the guard and 1st class in the middle of the train, you can the tack another SO/SK on the end if you've got them spare - this order reminds me of the cl421 4CIGs I went to college on with the guard in the middle. It just looks to my eye a bit awkward without a brake at the end; quite a departure from the 'train set' rake First up front, then second class and then brake I am fond of the look of.
One of the other Southern region fixed rakes photographed in the late 70s in the book is the traditional southern BSK, CK, BSK rake. If my memory serves me correct, this can sometimes have a few BG and GUV carriages behind - these are on their way to making a parcels trains elsewhere.