Should we run prototypical trains?

[Snowwolflair]

Were not the original ac locos for the WCML and the Glasgow suburban outshopped in what was called at the time 'Electric blue', not BR standard blue? Memory-and photos-seem to suggest it was a lighter shade than BR blue.
I can't find my written references for this, for the moment.
Steam and BR blue coaches were relatively common in the areas where steam still remained at the time-see the many photos taken in the last two or three years of steam on the LMR, for instance.
My own feeling for running on your own layout is Rule 1-whatever takes your fancy; but I do think that exhibition layouts should be run where at least the loco and the train it is hauling is the same period/era.
Martyn

The Glasgow class 303 suburban electric sets referred by the locals as The Blue Trains were painted Caledonian Blue.  I used to live next to the Hyndland depot.

[D1042 Western Princess]

There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train

Why not? It must have happened many times now I think about it - but only at Aberwystwth where the Vale of Rheidol line remained as BR Steam operated until (I believe) privatisation in the mid 1990s, other Welsh narrow gauge lines and preserved routes which had 'cross platform' connections (since you don't say it had to be BR steam!)

[Railwaygun]

To put it another way if all I saw at exhibitions were totally accurate depictions of railways,run to strict timetables, where trains appeared once per day (low use branch line), I'd simply stop showing up at exhibitions. In short everything would be too homogeneous for my taste.

Alas , all too common at exhibitions! I call them Bob Crowe specials!

[martyn]

'Alas , all too common at exhibitions! I call them Bob Crowe specials!'

I do remember seeing, many years ago, at IMREX exhibition in Central Halls, a very widely publicised layout which was having severe electrical problems, and no trains able to run; the exhibitors had made a sign and placed it on the front of the layout which said 'ASLEF day. No trains at present'.

Martyn

[paulprice]

To put it another way if all I saw at exhibitions were totally accurate depictions of railways,run to strict timetables, where trains appeared once per day (low use branch line), I'd simply stop showing up at exhibitions. In short everything would be too homogeneous for my taste.

Alas , all too common at exhibitions! I call them Bob Crowe specials!

Your right if I ran my layout at exhibitions more prototypically it would just be a procession of 4F and Black 5's I would love it but the viewers would get bored far quicker than they normally do

[Snowwolflair]

Repetition is not a problem when the average viewing cycle of a layout at an exhibition is under 5 minutes.  I find you want a movement every minute minimum, even if it a loco run around, shunt or through movement.

The movements can be prototypical just compressed in time.

[violets49]

The question as to whether BR Blue Grey ever met BR Crimson Cream is one which I have thought about for many years, I would say that it didn't but they must have been close. The decision to abandon the 'Blood and Custard' was taken in 1956. Naturally, it takes a while to repaint everything but it is said that the souther Region were VERY quick in painting their stock Green. Only selected coaches (And only Mk1's) were painted Chocolate and Cream on the Western Region. All other regions adopted Maroon. Percieved wisdom is that all crimson Cream coaches weree either repainted or withdrawn by 1962. (I last remember seeing one in about 1960.) The first MkII stock was delivered in maroon but the following year (1964) the XP64 stock was painted in a turquoise blue and white. along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen. The first new coaches in the new Blue/Grey livery emerged in 1966 so there must have been a four year gap between Blood/Custard and Blue/Grey. There were still maroon coaches knocking about in at least 1970 but becoming fewer all the time.
Regarding the DMU's. Initially, Cross Country and Suburban DMU's were painted all over blue. Intercity units were supposed to be Blue Grey but the only blue grey IC units I remember were the six coach trans-pennine stock. Every other IC unit I ever clapped eyes on were all over blue. I belive some long distance electric stock was painted blue/grey but most EMU's were all over blue. The Scottish 'Blue Trains' (Cl303) were originally a light blue said to be 'Caledonian' blue but some CRA members believe that it was closer to LNER Kingfisher Blue. In the mid sixties, they were repainted in the unlined Monastral Blue. The AC electric locos were originally in a lovely light blue livery called 'Electric Blue' with white cab window surrounds and cab roof. from the mid sixties, they too were painted in the darker blue with full yellow ends. These are my memories of the liveries of BR during the period 1960-80. Maybe others could share their observations? Did anybody see a Crimson/Cream coach in revenue service after 1962? When was the earliest sighting of a blue/grey coach? 1966 is the usual date for the approval of the new liveries but my recollection is that by summer of 1966, there was an awful lot of blue about!

[Karhedron]

Did anybody see a Crimson/Cream coach in revenue service after 1962? When was the earliest sighting of a blue/grey coach? 1966 is the usual date for the approval of the new liveries but my recollection is that by summer of 1966, there was an awful lot of blue about!

Last sighting of a crimson and cream coach I have been able to find is when the RCTS reported that Mk1 CK W15622 was still in Crimson & Cream in February 1964 on the Western Region.

First picture I have found of a blue/grey coach is a single vehicle on the Thames/Clyde express in October 1965. I suspect that this was not the first vehicle delivered and others were earlier in 1965. This means that crimson/cream and blue grey probably missed each other by only about 1 year (excluding the XP64 stock which was in a slightly different livery anyway).

The only Mk.2 BR coaches not delivered new in blue/grey were the Mk.2 (not 2A) First Corridors (FK) which were mostly maroon, but also a batch in green for the Southern Region. These were built in 1964-65. Other types (TSO, SO, BSO and BFK) were built from 1965 to 1967. I am sure there are dates somewhere for when in 1965 the first Mk2 TSO/SO/BSO/BFK was delivered.

[Newportnobby]

along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen.

I believe D1733 was the first diesel in blue. At least, it was the first one I saw in blue.

[Jerry Howlett]

along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen.

I believe D1733 was the first diesel in blue. At least, it was the first one I saw in blue.

Are you sure they had colour back in those days Mick ?

[Portpatrick]

Well to go back to the original question.  At home there is no question in my mind.  Your railway so do what you like.  Personally I do usually run sensible and near prototypical formations on Portpatrick at least 90% of the time.  That is my personal inclination.  At shows, however, since it is shown as inspired by the railways to Stranraer, I run things which seem to have gone there.  Though the period is flexible - compound on some locals and a 126 DMU on others.  And to better differentiate the Newcastle boat train it consists of LNER coaches - probably right - and an LNER loco (no suitable loco to change at Carlisle is my story.

When Allanbrae, now under construction,  hits the circuit that will run a Scottish 1998-2014 ish flavour.  Well I have units in all 3 main privatised liveries.  Plus a Dapol crimson and cream Strathclyde 156.

Running the club 4 track continuous is more fun.  We have such varied interests that the location is kept vague.  But if I am setting trains up I will aim to form them as near prototypically as I can, because I feel that is more educational.  Though that does not preclude one big 4 loco on another's coaches - it becomes an inter regional.    Depending on what members bring on the day, we often try to start a day in steam era.  Then progress through green diesel, then ease towards sector and privatised.  With perhaps a fun time at the end.  Thomas will appear if/when we find the time is right.

But I guess if the exhibition guide specifies as layout where anything goes, then why not.

[Newportnobby]

along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen.

I believe D1733 was the first diesel in blue. At least, it was the first one I saw in blue.

Are you sure they had colour back in those days Mick ?

How very dare you!
(I'll ask Bob Tidbury )

[D1042 Western Princess]

Your right if I ran my layout at exhibitions more prototypically it would just be a procession of 4F and Black 5's I would love it but the viewers would get bored far quicker than they normally do

Likewise - mine would be an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks, Class 22s and a 14!
An occasional Duff 4 perhaps, but that would be it - sheer heaven to many, a bit dull to others. 

[violets49]

Did anybody see a Crimson/Cream coach in revenue service after 1962? When was the earliest sighting of a blue/grey coach? 1966 is the usual date for the approval of the new liveries but my recollection is that by summer of 1966, there was an awful lot of blue about!

Last sighting of a crimson and cream coach I have been able to find is when the RCTS reported that Mk1 CK W15622 was still in Crimson & Cream in February 1964 on the Western Region.

First picture I have found of a blue/grey coach is a single vehicle on the Thames/Clyde express in October 1965. I suspect that this was not the first vehicle delivered and others were earlier in 1965. This means that crimson/cream and blue grey probably missed each other by only about 1 year (excluding the XP64 stock which was in a slightly different livery anyway).

The only Mk.2 BR coaches not delivered new in blue/grey were the Mk.2 (not 2A) First Corridors (FK) which were mostly maroon, but also a batch in green for the Southern Region. These were built in 1964-65. Other types (TSO, SO, BSO and BFK) were built from 1965 to 1967. I am sure there are dates somewhere for when in 1965 the first Mk2 TSO/SO/BSO/BFK was delivered.

As I said. there was an awful lot of Blue about (In Scotland) in 1966. The first Mk2 coach, W13252 emerged from Swindon Works in 1963. (In maroon) The first blue/grey coaches emerged form Derby in 1965. Keith Parkin in his book  'BR Mk1 coaches said "The blue and grey livery suggested by the design panel, tried on the XP64 train and made viable by the new 'airless' spray technique, began to be seen during 1965 but the changeover had to be gradual as it was not a matter of changing the paint pots but of installing new apparatus and training the men to operate it. derby began early but not until 1966 did a complete set of North eastern stock appear in blue and grey and it was even later before any Scottish Region Stock was seen. The new livery involved, this time, more than just a colour change." 

Pre nationalisation stock may have retained the crimson/cream longer especially if they were intended for early withdrawal. Few Big-Four passenger stock got the blue grey livery. Some of the LMS design (But BR Built) porthole stock and some Gresley catering vehicles.

[D1042 Western Princess]

Just for fun (but historically accurate all the same) the first BR Mk11 coaches emerged from works in full maroon livery.