I visited the Peterborough Model Train Show this weekend (16/10/2016) and attended two 'lectures' about the Protocab System from Acc+Ess Ltd. Not sure how many of you are familiar with their system but it is coming of age as you read this. TWO way radio link to the loco powered and controlled from on board system, 4 hours run time from a charge (on 00 scale), programmable inertia and braking, up to 9 locos, no power on track needed at all, can run on DCC layouts and DC without changing anything, on-board charging, radio range 100 feet indoors, impossible to receive interference from any other unit or controller. No I do not have any connection with them. I am however really keen to try this system in N gauge. Take a look here: https://www.protocab.com/welcome (https://www.protocab.com/welcome)
Apparently they are receiving many requests for N gauge and have already produced a design for a circuit board to fit in N gauge tenders.
They are also introducing wireless charging and/or contact charging (probably using buffers) soon and running 2 locos at once. I urge you all to have a look even if only to find out about a system which will probably be more reliable than DCC can ever be. It actually puts you in the cab - they have a notion to allow you to be in the cab of a loco on your PC or tablet and actually drive the model from the screen using the cab images of a real loco with your mouse (or finger). No loco numbers to enter either as once linked to the controller selection button it stays that way - Click the loco selector and drive with a rotary speed control. Needs no external power at all to operate.
Now the only downside: It's going to be fiddly to install in N gauge - but no more so than DCC. It needs to overcome our hobby's traditional slow take-up of new technology (20 years in the case of DCC).
If you visit a show why not make a point of visiting their stand. They are a UK family venture and will make you very welcome. You can also join their open member online group at no charge. Owners of their system have a Closed User Group.
Malc
This is a good idea for the larger scales but where are they going to put the battery in an N Gauge loco?
I can see that making this work for N gauge will be challenging. I wish them every success.
Despite all the pushing of dcc in the magazines my analysis of pros and cons of dcc for me don't make a case for going dcc. I am very happily dc and have no plans to change. I also run G scale, again mostly DC track power. I do have 6 battery powered G scale locos and I have to say it is a great way to power/control locos. Slow running is always 100% reliable regardless of track state (extra important in the garden) and radio control means you can watch your train from wherever you want to stand. I look forward to seeing this in action in N gauge.
The only downside to battery power is that the loco doesn't stop if it comes off the track. From experience this can lead to damage occurring.
I made that same point to them and the new controller is to have am Emergency Stop button. I assume the same handset could be used for either the garden or the N Scale saving cost. They are also producing a larger unit which I think was capable of 3 amps, so OK for G scale?
The battery fits in the tender and is like those used in tiny model helicopters. The charging circuit is on their circuit board. This means that the redundant (unused) wheel pick-ups could be used to provide power for recharging.
Has there been some new development then as the Protocab website currently says this:
"At present Protocab would be difficult to fit into 2mm/ft scale locomotive mainly due to battery size. We recognise there is much demand for battery power + wireless control in smaller scales but we have concluded that 2 and 3mm/ft scales can only be addressed universally when the battery technologies that we know are coming down the line are commercially available."
That's very interesting. I can see the realism benefits.
You'll be able to have realistic lineside fires when the lithium polymer battery takes a turn for the worst and overheats!
Mmmmm, I love the smell of burning plastic in the morning!
:goodbye:
I feel that model railways are lagging behind in embracing new technology, we have some wonderful radio controlled, battery powered toys in the shops. thses vary from quadracopters to swimming fish, yes the latter does exist. I thought the young lad next door had a Goldfish in a tank for a birthday present, in reality it was battery powered and radio controlled and looked extremely realistic. If a swimming fish can be made which is 50mm long what is stopping N gauge locos from running by battery and radio control.
Geoff
Er, because:
A. You want it to run for more than 5 minutes.
B. You want it to look scale. (No pun intended)
C. You want to still have a motor in it to make it move, and that takes space.
:thumbsup:
It did all of those things in a length of 50mm, it was so realistic I thought it was a real fish.
Geoff
Quote from: AGR-Shed-Enderby on October 17, 2016, 08:45:17 AM
The battery fits in the tender and is like those used in tiny model helicopters. The charging circuit is on their circuit board. This means that the redundant (unused) wheel pick-ups could be used to provide power for recharging.
Quite a few locos are tender drive with very little space to fit the DCC chip. I don't think there is space in most locos for a battery, even a watch battery might be difficult.
The best way it can be sucessful in N gauge, which I would like to see, is for manufacturers to include it or at leastr space in the locos for installation. They are still producing new locos without DCC blanks (eg new Farish class 08).
Quote from: Only Me on October 17, 2016, 11:03:57 AM
Bit of cello-tape over ithe battery on the top of the old Kettle, no one will notice, just say it's kit built :D
Just tried that it crushed the loco. Perhaps a car battery is a little too big
Now your just being ridiculous!
What you need to do is have a consist of tank wagons, maybe oil, then each one can be a "AA" rechargeable battery.
Simples!
Of course, the consists you can run will be limited...
:P
Have I read this right?
You can only address 9 locos with this system, of which only one (soon to be two) can be actually running. And you need a tender-sized space to fit it in?
Not very appealing to anyone with even a modest diesel fleet, like myself
I would like to see us guys help push the company forward by offering positive encouragement.
In answer to the more sensible comments: The new batteries are coming on stream and the circuit board has been lengthened to 25mm whilst halving the width specifically to move towards this solution. They stated emphatically during their presentation that N Gauge is their next priority and that now batteries are improving they are hoping to match the running times of their existing 00 system (4 hours constant at 100 mAh). The company is more likely to move quicker, which they are really keen on doing, if we make positive noises and all join their member area as soon as possible.
Their Youtube videos are excellent and provide full details of the current system and installation. They are going to bring their 'Concentrator' box into use soon and this will allow many things to happen which are so far only a dream for many of us. How about running a layout from different locations in the world in real time using live video camera and either speech or bells to communicate between driver and signalman for example?
I would urge anyone with even slight interest to have a look. Obviously some guys will not even think about it and some layouts won't be suitable BUT their research shows that over 50% of layout owners use the locos in a way which they can provide control for. Their new handset for example will allow many more locos and the safety cur out system stops instantly should there be any sort of incident.
I remember Zero 1 (Yuck) and DCC being born (Wow) and that climbed a much bigger mountain than Protocab needs to do - the cost is likely to be very similar for example. DCC can still operate the turnouts etc. etc. but you will be driving the loco directly (No turnout power wiring problems) and with no problems from dirty tracks.
You might assume that I am keen on the idea - be in no doubt - I am! No wonder I am known as 'Grandad Gadget' by my off-sprungs.
Malc (GG)
I appreciate your enthusiasm. May I ask one question?
Do you have a vested interest in the company?
???
Although I am sceptical about the impending battery developments. I would be an early adopter of a working system. My worries are still the battery, look what has happened to Samsung with their quest for smaller longer life batteries. Batteries do give off a fair amount of heat when worked hard. In OO gauge there will be room but in N the space will require something similar to a CR2032 or not much bigger. I have no doubt that the technology will come and will work but it will probably take a few years.
Initially there will probably be a requirement for a battery compartment in the first carriage/wagon. Not really a problem if you run fixed rakes and would be great at exhibitions.
Just been tagged and a PM Don't know who. In answer to your question - No I have not posted previously on battery N locos. Also 100ma would be when running not the stall current.
Don't shoot the messenger!
why the need for batterys?theres already a tried and tested method of getting electrickery into the engine thats been around for a good few years,the rails.The only advantage i can see is with more complex track layouts,however you could still run on track power for the majority of such layouts,just using the battery for isolated section around complex track junctions .Also what frequency is the radio operating on?dont want next doors garage opener telling your latest local to go fulll speed in reverse
Only Me tagged you in the post above yours. It's hard not to be a bit skeptical - you've basically signed up to wax lyrical about how incredible this is and telling everyone to sign up to their website. Those are the classic hallmarks of astroturfing.
Leaving that aside, the battery issue is surely a huge one. You'd not even fit a CR2032 in most N gauge stock, perhaps an LR44, or as said you're into joining locos and wagons/coaches, which starts getting really messy. Something like a Dapol 56 just about has room for a DZ126IN decoder, which are 9.05mm x 10.61mm x 2.67mm. No way are you converting that to radio control!
You're limited to 9 locos, so it's only really useful for small layouts. Who needs/wants to be able to operate their layout from elsewhere on the planet? Even then you're buying into a system on the promise of what it might one day do. That's like saying buy a television now because virtual reality may happen in 20 years.
I get the concept, and I like it, but half the 'benefits' really aren't IMO and the practicalities leave massive question marks in my mind.
I kind of struggle to see any great advantage over a decent DCC system to be honest - is there one?
Track and wheels still ultimately need cleaned on any system as the build up of crud still occurs and can cause running issues (mechanically).
And tearing apart N gauge models to fit all this seems a big effort for not much gain (unless I'm missing the advantages).
On DCC surely all turnouts are live anyway, and all sections (as they would be on a DC system) switched on?
Given the longevity of Lithium Ion cells (assuming this is the power source), this wouldn't be permanent install either - they'd die after a given number of years and need replaced - remember models are generally expected to last 5, 10, 15, 20 or maybe more years; and never mind the charge time which we don't have on straight DC/DCC - plug in and go, no wait.
Running the layout remote "from around the world" is interesting, but it immediately raises two questions - who would really do this (I suspect very very very few?)? And derailment = end of it....?
Sorry, maybe I'm just missing the advantages completely, but seems like a massive upheval (and devaluing of your models) for little gain.
Cheers,
Alan
I'm thinking it's more a case of "we can" invent it, rather than "we need" to invent it.
Does anyone recall the episode last week of the guy spending 11hours to get his wi-fi kettle to work. All very good, but why do you need a wi-fi kettle?
:smackedface:
Quote. All very good, but why do you need a wi-fi kettle?
so you can have a boiled kettle ready for you when you walk through the door at 3am wanting a coffee but are to tired to wait for the kettle to boil
Were you not aware that you should not boil water that has been standing in a kettle for many hours?
It de-oxygenates itself which is not good for you.
Hence you should always use freshly drawn water.
Hence why have a wi-fi kettle?
:smackedface:
Quote from: themadhippy on October 17, 2016, 02:35:44 PM
Quote. All very good, but why do you need a wi-fi kettle?
so you can have a boiled kettle ready for you when you walk through the door at 3am wanting a coffee but are to tired to wait for the kettle to boil
If you're that tired you'll be asleep before the coffee is cool enough to drink! :doh:
Quote from: AGR-Shed-Enderby on October 17, 2016, 07:40:34 AMIt actually puts you in the cab - they have a notion to allow you to be in the cab of a loco on your PC or tablet and actually drive the model from the screen using the cab images of a real loco with your mouse (or finger).
Unless there's a camera embedded in the loco (both ends), which is presumably not part of this system, why would I want to stare at a screen and not the loco itself while operating it? Also, with apps/proprietary software in general, I would be concerned about lack of updates a few years down the line, though for this system they're presumably optional as there's an actual physical controller.
Quote from: geoffc on October 17, 2016, 10:03:12 AM
I feel that model railways are lagging behind in embracing new technology, we have some wonderful radio controlled, battery powered toys in the shops. thses vary from quadracopters to swimming fish, yes the latter does exist. I thought the young lad next door had a Goldfish in a tank for a birthday present, in reality it was battery powered and radio controlled and looked extremely realistic. If a swimming fish can be made which is 50mm long what is stopping N gauge locos from running by battery and radio control.
Unfortunately it's a very small niche market with not much in the way of capital floating about which would provide the necessary investment for developing radical new innovations with uncertain prospects of making a return on that investment... It's not like e.g. Bachmann have shiny stores in every town and people regularly queue up through the night to get their hands on the latest iTrain.
There's also the problem of adoption and inertia - classical DC is a pretty universal system which is hard to beat, you can take pretty much any (well-maintained) train from the last 40 or 50 years and put it on any track with any controller and it should work; DCC overcomes many of the restrictions of DC and is a common standard implemented by many different manufacturers, it's not perfect but it's out there; any other system is going to have to offer some discernable advantage (at low cost of adoption/conversion) to beat those, methinks.
As far as batteries go - I'm no expert but I suppose you could (in the case of diesels/electrics) make the chassis itself be the battery, rather than a lump of metal as it is now, but I suspect that would be a) hideously expensive for the small production runs in this industry, and b) once the chassis-battery no longer holds a charge, what then?
new brochure
www.protocab.com (http://www.protocab.com)
the Chips are 24mm
x10mm and thanks to a new flat antenna,
the board thickness is 4mm and supports
motor stall currents up to 350 milliamps.
* so not DCC size yet but could fit larger locos?
the batteries are down to 10mm (diam) x 45mm so could fit in waggon / coach.
* they claim you never have to clean track ( or wire it ) again!!
Anyone had a go yet??
Brochure:
https://www.protocab.com/resources/2017-02-04-Announcement-Brochure.pdf (https://www.protocab.com/resources/2017-02-04-Announcement-Brochure.pdf)
(no commercial interest)
There seems to be a lot of negativity about this. Having read through this and not having looked at any of the publicity material I can see its appeal and also the issues with N gauge. For me the selling point is the loco is radio controlled so you have no need to wire the track. To me that's a bonus straight away! Personally however, I feel that this is probably not a viable proposition in N due to its size. Good luck to the developer if they can make it work though and I'm sure there would be people who may find that the system suits them the same way DC suits some and DCC suits others. Each to there own I suppose...
DCC was supposed to be really simple, but the more I read up on it the more complicated it seems to be with all the variables and options that can be programmed. I'm becoming a bit of a techno-phobe has things become more advanced and to me more complicated!
John
Quote from: 25901JFM on July 02, 2017, 06:20:38 PM
For me the selling point is the loco is radio controlled so you have no need to wire the track. To me that's a bonus straight away!
<snip>
DCC was supposed to be really simple, but the more I read up on it the more complicated it seems to be with all the variables and options that can be programmed. I'm becoming a bit of a techno-phobe has things become more advanced and to me more complicated!
Couldn't agree more. DCC obviously improves the range of options compared with DC, i.e., turning on lights, having two trains on one track, that sort of thing. But it does nothing about the fundamental weakness with model railways -- any kind of control or movement depends on a clean contact between two metal surfaces that, by their very nature, are picking up dirt and spreading it about.
The obvious solution is to have the electrical energy stored on-board the train, and then using wireless control of some sort to control the amount of current being fed to the motors. Compared with this ideal situation, DCC is a dead end, however nifty.
Of course the problem for N is getting big enough batteries inside locos that are already crammed full of wires and circuit boards!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on July 02, 2017, 06:52:03 PM
Quote from: 25901JFM on July 02, 2017, 06:20:38 PM
For me the selling point is the loco is radio controlled so you have no need to wire the track. To me that's a bonus straight away!
<snip>
DCC was supposed to be really simple, but the more I read up on it the more complicated it seems to be with all the variables and options that can be programmed. I'm becoming a bit of a techno-phobe has things become more advanced and to me more complicated!
Couldn't agree more. DCC obviously improves the range of options compared with DC, i.e., turning on lights, having two trains on one track, that sort of thing. But it does nothing about the fundamental weakness with model railways -- any kind of control or movement depends on a clean contact between two metal surfaces that, by their very nature, are picking up dirt and spreading it about.
The obvious solution is to have the electrical energy stored on-board the train, and then using wireless control of some sort to control the amount of current being fed to the motors. Compared with this ideal situation, DCC is a dead end, however nifty.
Of course the problem for N is getting big enough batteries inside locos that are already crammed full of wires and circuit boards!
Cheers, NeMo
Give it a couple of years and
I'm sure I hope that the size will come down. It really looks like a good solution to running problems in the long term. However, I think there will be substantial cost to converting locos and adding a control system - probably more than DCC for a number of years.
A technology that's well worth watching iMHO.
:beers:
Protocab with N gauge conversion and news of N gauge version
https://protocab.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=069a0922187536ea473d59675&id=c73ca8a47b&e=f1f02f1ac5
The fundamental problem here seems twofold:
1. Reliance on lithium batteries is going to end up costly - they simply don't last the significant lengths of time that we tend to own models (10s of years) - meaning they'll likely need replaced maybe as much as 6 or 7 times in a loco living 25 years (assuming the normal degredation after 3-4 years). Care also needed in damage to models if batteries expand with age - this is not uncommon on consumer electronics.
2. Users won't be able to chop and change locos easily as any new purchase would need conversion, and perhaps worse, I suspect the resale value of converted models will be virtually greatly reduced, unless they can be retro-returned to original condition, and given what is necessary this seems unlikely.
The idea has some merit, but I struggle to see it becoming all that mainstream.
Cheers,
Alan
Yep, still not really seeing much point.
I do like the idea of no wiring, but unless you build the layout with Protocab in mind that's a bit moot surely, we all have layouts that are already wired.
The GUV conversion in the article epitomises the issue - you have to then have a 'mule' vehicle to go with the loco at all times, so it's only really good for fixed rakes, yet the limit to the number of locos means it's only good for smaller layouts, so you need small layouts but not shunting or depot ones. O gauge... maybe. N gauge... not at the moment, and I'm not sure I can see it working any time soon.
I think they are working on a nice system. Loco chips are getting smaller and they have feedback.
Let's hope motor control can be adjusted as good as with the best DCC chips.
But DC, DCC and track power are not only used to manually control a certain loco.
There are all kinds of automated systems (block systems and automatic stop sections on DC and complete computer control on DCC) that rely on the track power in some way. Another way of detecting trains (rf transponders?) will be necessary.
I wouldn't want to have more than two trains running if I had to control all of them manually :worried:
Jan
I have had some N scale experience with BPRC and agree that the main problem is the battery. I did convert a class 08 with the receiver and battery in a VBA van. It was a joy to use with all those rail power issues going away. It had spent 3 years in a drawer and when I powered it up of it went without any problems. I reckon if I wanted to I could fit the latest stuff in a normal box van.
A problem is where to put the battery, modern fixed formation conversions are OK but what you want is a Class 66 that can pull a long train for a significant time.. Steam era might be better if you have tender locos.
Battery tehcnology is advancing so there may well be batteries with 2 or 3 times the capacity in the same volume in a few years. Replacing batteries should be considered as part of the running costs anyway.
i see the future for model railway control as a system that can use DC or DCC track power or onboard batteries with seamless auto switching between track and battery. This is already available from BlueRail trains but not yet suitable for N scale.
Being released from the horrors of track wiring and cleaning on my 00 scale layout has been a joy for me, the trains just run!
Quote from: davecttr on December 31, 2017, 02:44:56 PM
Battery tehcnology is advancing so there may well be batteries with 2 or 3 times the capacity in the same volume in a few years. Replacing batteries should be considered as part of the running costs anyway.
Lithium Ion is well known as being fairly close to a safe maximum energy density level (looking at other sources there are few others more dense, other than those nature has been working on for eons, such as fossil fuels....). Gaining 2-3x in the same number of years is simply highly unlikely with current methods and technology, and that's the same line peddled by those who think electric car ranges will increase rapidly because of cell/battery technology, but the current science says otherwise.
In reality, it's more efficient motors that'll make the difference, and in model form this applies too - recent motors draw between 10 and 20 times less current than those of even 10 years back.
Whilst I applaud folks for exploring new ideas, I still don't see it as viable - I don't want to be limited to hauling fixed rakes or coaches permanently coupled behind locos (modelling a depot becomes impossible for example), I don't want them all sitting there degrading and ultimately needing replacement prematurely (i.e. before the loco itself would - which they will, that is demonstrably true, and poor quality Li-ions can bulge with age - do you want that happening in an already packed installation in your favourite model?) and their resale value (as I do do some chopping and changing, as do most of us I think) basically emiminated.
As an aside, the current trend is basically to stick a lithium ion battery of cells in just about every electronic device - I'm no massive environmentalist, but most of these devices are going to end up dying fairly prematurely, many because of these cells, and disposal and or recycling of the cells seems a potential time bomb of both pollution and additional energy usage that we are setting up for ourselves and sleepwaking into.
Cheers,
Alan
Batteries! Well, what's to stop you adding cells in a coach or van and linking them? Seems a better bet than trying to get something in a tender. Li-ion do hold charge well but I take the point about all the eventual recycling.
Quote from: Old Crow on January 03, 2018, 01:11:50 AM
Batteries! Well, what's to stop you adding cells in a coach or van and linking them? Seems a better bet than trying to get something in a tender.
Think I covered that:
"I don't want to be limited to hauling fixed rakes or coaches permanently coupled behind locos (modelling a depot becomes impossible for example)"
I've seen RC done on OO layouts, and frankly the compromises of fixed wagons (with high loads to accommodate the power source) that don't match the rest of the train just stick out like a sore thumb.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 03, 2018, 01:16:23 AM
Quote from: Old Crow on January 03, 2018, 01:11:50 AM
Batteries! Well, what's to stop you adding cells in a coach or van and linking them? Seems a better bet than trying to get something in a tender.
Think I covered that:
"I don't want to be limited to hauling fixed rakes or coaches permanently coupled behind locos (modelling a depot becomes impossible for example)"
I've seen RC done on OO layouts, and frankly the compromises of fixed wagons (with high loads to accommodate the power source) that don't match the rest of the train just stick out like a sore thumb.
Cheers,
Alan
BPRC is OK at 00 scale or larger. I have almost 40 locos already converted ranging from little 0-4-0 saddle tank to large Pacifics and diesels. They all have onboard batteries and have good hauling capacity with sufficient endurance. The problem with N is it just to small and fiddly, especially with my old eyes and eyesight.
Modelling a depot might be the easiest project to do. It depends on how many milliamps you locos need running light engine at relatively low speeds. If your class 66 at 15mph draws 100mA and you can find room for a 70mAh UM lipo (approx 25 x11x6mm) You will get over 35 minutes of running, plenty for depot moves.
Quote from: davecttr on January 03, 2018, 12:20:22 PM
Modelling a depot might be the easiest project to do. It depends on how many milliamps you locos need running light engine at relatively low speeds. If your class 66 at 15mph draws 100mA and you can find room for a 70mAh UM lipo (approx 25 x11x6mm) You will get over 35 minutes of running, plenty for depot moves.
Sorry, no chance it fits my use case - depot attached to a main station where locos come on and off trains after working the main line. Add to that the previous battery and resale concerns, together with the time and expense of installation, and I just don't see it.
Plus, I don't want to have to wait to charge locos every 35 mins of use - currently it's : go! whenever I want to with track power. Even charging the Faller road system can be a pain, and they typically last 5 hours.....
Also, with track power I see that a depot type model will become very interesting in near terms with track power and the emergence of credible DCC sound - all those locos simmering could be quite atmospheric.
Cheers,
Alan
Well, I can certainly see the merits in this system. It'll be great, a ten minute run-a-round with one loco, pop that and it's accompanying "power-car" into a siding for 30 mins for charging, get another one running around for ten minutes etc., etc., it'll be great.
Of course that'll be the end of shunting, realistic consists, multiple locos running simultaneously.
Having some experience of "tiny" Lithium batteries, there's no way on gods green earth I'd have charging points on a layout or batteries in my stock. I have a few small radio controlled model aircraft, I'm talking one foot wingspans ( that's 12 inches in old money), they are all a very reputable brand, but they recommend charging on a non-flammable surface and never unattended. I have had one charger burst into flames...
...but the most spectacular issue was the Mustang fighter I was flying, which, coming out of a barrel roll started trailing smoke from below it's "engine" cowl, which shortly turned into flames before the aircraft plummeted into the ground like a special effect from a B grade war movie. The few months old lithium rechargeable battery had decided enough was enough.
I think I'll pass on this project for a while yet.
:hmmm:
I have trouble squeezing in a speaker and sound decoder let alone having to find room for a wifi board and battery! :goggleeyes:
I think the answer lies not with batteries but enhanced "stay alive" systems.
A radio system for comms makes a lot of sense and can be miniaturised effectively but the power delivery should take advantage of the rails being there to keep a super capacitor charged up on a semi constant contact. You would only need to send power to the rails and not have to worry about the more complicated elements of dcc wiring like points, return loops and track circuits. as you would only wire up the regular track lengths.
As an addendum I am also very experienced in the use of lithium batteries in my other hobby of racing RC electric cars.
We use high capacity (around 5000mah) lithium polymer (LiPo) battery packs and run them extremely hard. For all race meetings you will be thrown out for charging your battery if it is not enclosed in a "LiPo sack" that is designed to hold back the flames. Battery fires are very rare but extremely destructive and almost impossible to extinguish once they get going.
In addition, they are usually only good for around 500 charge cycles before performance drops off significantly. They are not the solution for model trains IMO.
Quote from: emjaybee on January 03, 2018, 01:54:42 PM
Well, I can certainly see the merits in this system. It'll be great, a ten minute run-a-round with one loco, pop that and it's accompanying "power-car" into a siding for 30 mins for charging, get another one running around for ten minutes etc., etc., it'll be great.
Of course that'll be the end of shunting, realistic consists, multiple locos running simultaneously.
Having some experience of "tiny" Lithium batteries, there's no way on gods green earth I'd have charging points on a layout or batteries in my stock. I have a few small radio controlled model aircraft, I'm talking one foot wingspans ( that's 12 inches in old money), they are all a very reputable brand, but they recommend charging on a non-flammable surface and never unattended. I have had one charger burst into flames...
...but the most spectacular issue was the Mustang fighter I was flying, which, coming out of a barrel roll started trailing smoke from below it's "engine" cowl, which shortly turned into flames before the aircraft plummeted into the ground like a special effect from a B grade war movie. The few months old lithium rechargeable battery had decided enough was enough.
I think I'll pass on this project for a while yet.
:hmmm:
I will ignore the sarcasm!. As I mentioned earlier IMO 'N' is too small for BPRC except with fixed formations.but lets look at the other issues as there are some popular misconceptions.
Shunting entirely possible and there are systems out there that can offer RC shunting anywhere on the layout.
You can have realistic consists, American or UK style, but not with the Protocab system.
Multiple locos running simultaneously- no problem, but not with Protocab! I have a double track continuous run with branch that can also be continuous plus a small goods yard and 2 road shed/turntable etc. I can run 3 locos or more if double heading on the continuous runs and do some shunting and shed movements, all at the same time.
Lipo fires. Charging and discharging a lipo for rail use is different to model plane use. You can charge at a low C rate and my discharge rates with a 400mA loco don't exceed 2 or 3 C depending on lipo capacity. The discharge demands are way below those needed for planes. None of the stuff even gets warm.
Charging. I do charge off loco on a fireproof surface with E-flite chargers. Why on layout charging when you can change a battery in less than a minute. I did have a 220mAh cell get hot on charging but that was retired.
Some of my diesels use NiMh packs and you can get up to 4 hours run time with those, they don't explode either.
Why the negative comments about Protocab? IMO it is under specified and too expensive. A lot of potential there but not there yet.
Too sum up, the battery technology is not there yet for 'N' scale.
Quote from: cutting42 on January 03, 2018, 03:48:53 PM
I think the answer lies not with batteries but enhanced "stay alive" systems.
A radio system for comms makes a lot of sense and can be miniaturised effectively but the power delivery should take advantage of the rails being there to keep a super capacitor charged up on a semi constant contact. You would only need to send power to the rails and not have to worry about the more complicated elements of dcc wiring like points, return loops and track circuits. as you would only wire up the regular track lengths.
There you have it, glimpse of the future. Substitute a battery for the capacitor and you have exactly what you suggest. Bluerail do it with their system but not for 'N'. No auto charging of the battery in the powered sections yet. I don't think they have thought of it !. As an example the 'fiddly' bits of my layout are about a third of the track run. This can triple the endurance of the onboard battery.
I think this is interesting and worth further consideration. Like cars I think "hybrid" would work well - ie you have a battery being constantly charged. I can see it might not suit everybody but I'd have no problem with fixed rakes including batteries. Where can I find out more about this system?
Mention battery power and everyone thinks Li Polymer battery and the vastly overstated chances of fire. Most likely commonly deployed because of the ease of manufacture of varying forms of the prismatic cell and light weight.
Could use Lithium Iron battery (A123 battery type) for fast charge rate (8C and higher) and low hazards (no self sustaining decomposition and fire).
Other chemistry batteries available or under development so don't write the battery power option off as yet.
CFJ
Quote from: Old Crow on January 04, 2018, 11:54:32 PM
I think this is interesting and worth further consideration. Like cars I think "hybrid" would work well - ie you have a battery being constantly charged. I can see it might not suit everybody but I'd have no problem with fixed rakes including batteries. Where can I find out more about this system?
Here you go, be warned, lots of stuff and can be geeky. Have a general browse.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/228-radio-control/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/228-radio-control/)
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95379-bluerail-trains-bluetooth-locomotive-control/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95379-bluerail-trains-bluetooth-locomotive-control/)
http://www.freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45 (http://www.freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45)
http://bluerailtrains.com/about-bluerail/ (http://bluerailtrains.com/about-bluerail/)
http://www.deltang.co.uk/ (http://www.deltang.co.uk/)
http://www.on30guy.com/ (http://www.on30guy.com/)
https://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/programing-deltang-receivers.html (https://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/programing-deltang-receivers.html)
https://www.protocab.com/welcome (https://www.protocab.com/welcome)
Quote from: NinOz on January 05, 2018, 05:27:49 AM
Mention battery power and everyone thinks Li Polymer battery and the vastly overstated chances of fire. Most likely commonly deployed because of the ease of manufacture of varying forms of the prismatic cell and light weight.
Could use Lithium Iron battery (A123 battery type) for fast charge rate (8C and higher) and low hazards (no self sustaining decomposition and fire).
Other chemistry batteries available or under development so don't write the battery power option off as yet.
CFJ
By A123 do you mean AA, AAA etc?. Lithium Iron is interesting because a cell outputs approx. 3 volts compared with NiMh's 1.2. Are there AAA sizes available?