Frustration with Dapol and Farish Pre-orders

[austinbob]

I have 7 or 8 items on pre-order from Hattons - some from the early part of last year. I emailed Hattons yesterday and apart from one item, which has a current estimated delivery date of May/June this year, they cannot give me any estimate for delivery for any of the other items!
I know this is not Hattons fault, in fact they have been very helpful (as they always are) in responding to my enquiries about deliveries.
I just find it appalling that Farish and Dapol make announcements about new products in their catalogues which just don't materialise.
It seems to me that, like politicians, they publish what might happen in order to keep customers happy without any real commitment to deliver on their promises. Now that, together with their lack of consistent quality and reliability, is a real turn off.
Why do I still love this hobby - I must be demented (no comments on that please!!)

[Zakalwe]

new models are announced earlier than in the past to stake out the turf , a few years ago there wasn't much n gauge stuff so was easy not to need to claim.   now it seems a race to get claims in then worry about building.   it's very much like patenting a product or idea, too soon and you annoy people as it takes time to come out, too late and someone could beat you to it

plus in last few years there has been a step change in employment in china and manufacturing is harder.

[Karhedron]

To be fair, most of it turns up eventually. I can only think of a couple of things that have been cancelled (Farish 9F and Dapol Pendolino). R&D takes time, particularly when being done in a foreign language on a different continent.

Farish are fairly secretive about their R&D but I know Dapol have had to scrap some work in the past and start from scratch which accounts for some of the delays. Most industries have some projects that get delayed through bad luck, poor research or inadequate investment.

[mickster04]

seeing as you can't actually stop someone else building the same train as you (meaning loco, wagon, coach or other) surely the best way to 'beat someone to it' is to just physically release it to the public, then no-one will care who announced it first, just who can get it in customers hands first?

[Portpatrick]

Bob
Yes, I have a lot of sympathy.  The classic case was Farish and the Ivatt 260 - as I have commented before on this Forum.  Announced initially c 2007/08, with the result that Dapol withdrew some tentative plans to follow up the tank version.  And we finally got it last autumn.  A very fine loco it is too.  Surely they should have realised there would be a major challenge in producing such as small loco before they announced it and held off announcing it for a few years.  And Hattons were exemplary over it.  When I pre-ordered I signed up for £58 and that is what I paid, although by launch it was already over £80 at their prices.

My A2 is similarly on order at a few pounds less than the now quoted price.  Given how similar that is to the A!, my simple mind wonders why that keeps slipping.  I certainly wish they kept plans quiet until they had a reasonable basis for giving an availability date.   On quality, I must have been lucky, no returns so far, though perhaps I am more forgiving than some.  I am not fussed by a little noise or wobble, though I have had very little.  My Dapol Ivatt tank needed the keeper plate screws to be slackened by 1/8 of a turn to make it run smoothly.  And I had to make a minor repair to the bogie on one of my two B1s.  Oh, and a handrail on one of the Jubilees needed straightening.  I fail to see why Dapol adopted those silly silver wheels for the Brit and others, and I do not like their shaft through the cab for tender locos.  And then the front bogies of Farish Jubilees, B1s etc have a mind of their own, swinging all over the place when putting them on the railer/track; the old Black 5, Compound etc design was more limited in free movement.  But these are design issues, not quality as such.  Diesels do not seem to suffer from such oddities.

[Sprintex]

seeing as you can't actually stop someone else building the same train as you (meaning loco, wagon, coach or other) surely the best way to 'beat someone to it' is to just physically release it to the public, then no-one will care who announced it first, just who can get it in customers hands first?

Too much competition in a limited market isn't a good thing.

Look at the Voyager: Farish and Dapol both brought out models that were probably in development at the same time, can't comment on the merits of each model as I don't own one, but one way or another it means both companies have lost sales to the other which means they may not recoup development and tooling costs. Too many occurrences of that means losses made and eventually no more company 


Paul

[austinbob]

Bob
Yes, I have a lot of sympathy.  The classic case was Farish and the Ivatt 260 - as I have commented before on this Forum.  Announced initially c 2007/08, with the result that Dapol withdrew some tentative plans to follow up the tank version.  And we finally got it last autumn.  A very fine loco it is too.  Surely they should have realised there would be a major challenge in producing such as small loco before they announced it and held off announcing it for a few years.  And Hattons were exemplary over it.  When I pre-ordered I signed up for £58 and that is what I paid, although by launch it was already over £80 at their prices.

My A2 is similarly on order at a few pounds less than the now quoted price.  Given how similar that is to the A!, my simple mind wonders why that keeps slipping.  I certainly wish they kept plans quiet until they had a reasonable basis for giving an availability date.   On quality, I must have been lucky, no returns so far, though perhaps I am more forgiving than some.  I am not fussed by a little noise or wobble, though I have had very little.  My Dapol Ivatt tank needed the keeper plate screws to be slackened by 1/8 of a turn to make it run smoothly.  And I had to make a minor repair to the bogie on one of my two B1s.  Oh, and a handrail on one of the Jubilees needed straightening.  I fail to see why Dapol adopted those silly silver wheels for the Brit and others, and I do not like their shaft through the cab for tender locos.  And then the front bogies of Farish Jubilees, B1s etc have a mind of their own, swinging all over the place when putting them on the railer/track; the old Black 5, Compound etc design was more limited in free movement.  But these are design issues, not quality as such.  Diesels do not seem to suffer from such oddities.

A very balanced response - I wish I had your patience and acceptance of the way things are. However I expect Manufacturers to keep their delivery promises and deliver stuff that works out of the box. Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I don't think that's unreasonable!

[acko22]

While I can't talk for Chinese employment,

I think the massive killer is at the moment across the UK outline no matter is it is N gauge or OO there is not that much competition going on so the makers can take their time!
As a consequence things over run or get cancelled after promising so much, at times it feels like there is almost a gentlemen's agreement in place as neither Farish or Dapol seem to want to tread on each others toes and fight for customers over the same model. Now Pauls point is a good one to much competition is as bad as non but surely there needs to be more, personally I feel if we had a 3rd maybe even 4th maker mixed in that would encourage each other to push themselves a little more and maybe expand the classes available not just the liveries.
It would make a more appetising market and scale for people to decide model in instead of getting bored of waiting and moving on to something else!

Sadly as Port Patrick as pointed out it's not only us the customer who loses out but the shop that sells them his Ivatt the going price when it appeared was £80+ and he paid £58 the chances are Hattons may have made a loss through no fault of their own!

[Newportnobby]

As someone who has over £1100 of pre orders for Farish & Dapol stuff (DJM and now Rapido not counted), I do get tired of waiting for them but the excitement value when they get released partly makes up for the wait.
However, what sticks in my craw is not being able to budget properly such that I know when my wallet will get clobbered

It will be interesting to see who gets the class 59 to market first - Dapol or DJM (not that I want one)

[austinbob]

To be fair, most of it turns up eventually. I can only think of a couple of things that have been cancelled (Farish 9F and Dapol Pendolino). R&D takes time, particularly when being done in a foreign language on a different continent.

Farish are fairly secretive about their R&D but I know Dapol have had to scrap some work in the past and start from scratch which accounts for some of the delays. Most industries have some projects that get delayed through bad luck, poor research or inadequate investment.

Karhedron. Thanks for the reply.
There seems to something fundamentally wrong with your thinking here - and I'm not trying to put you down here but..
The manufacturers of N gauge products are there to provide us with a service i.e. Product delivered to the required quality within promised timescales. That is no different to any other product on the planet. Why should N gauge be different?
Product which turns up eventually is not acceptable
Product which does not work out of the box is not acceptable
If we continue to give N gauge manufacturers the benefit of the doubt for their failings then things will not improve.
I love N gauge and when products work well they are a joy to behold - but it doesn't happen often enough.

[austinbob]

As someone who has over £1100 of pre orders for Farish & Dapol stuff (DJM and now Rapido not counted), I do get tired of waiting for them but the excitement value when they get released partly makes up for the wait.
However, what sticks in my craw is not being able to budget properly such that I know when my wallet will get clobbered

It will be interesting to see who gets the class 59 to market first - Dapol or DJM (not that I want one)

I must admit that the main advantage of delays to release of products is the boost to my bank balance in the short term!!

[Luke Piewalker]

I wouldn't mind so much but I pre ordered a Mk 3 DVT from Hattons on the basis the guy on Dapols facebook said they would be here in October...

[acko22]

Bob,

Your are 100% right it isn't acceptable for the makers to have us on a leash waiting for them to finally produce a model.
If fact could it not be said it is short sighted of them? I know its not like magic but in OO there seems to be a noticeable difference in turn around time, now yeah they have a bigger market.
Would they not increase their market in N gauge if they kept to the same standard and produced things in a timely manner.

Although Bob boasting the bank account? Because of my purchases and the fact things tend to come out all at once my bank account resembles a bloody rollercoaster! 

[jivebunny]

A very balanced response - I wish I had your patience and acceptance of the way things are. However I expect Manufacturers to keep their delivery promises and deliver stuff that works out of the box. Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I don't think that's unreasonable!

Agreed, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect manufacturers to release models a year or two after they've staked their claim. 7-8 years from announcement to release is ridiculous, it just stifles the market and irritates the customers (and fabricating release dates doesn't exactly help customer loyalty). The only way this practice will stop is if the larger manufacturers start listening to their customers (unlikely), or if one of them releases an item the other staked a claim to many years ago. As has already been said, any item is fair game, but Farish turning up at Warley with an unannounced 142 to hit the shops that same week would perhaps make Dapol think twice about announcing stuff almost a decade in advance. They don't even seem to be able to schedule their re-runs properly, I've had an IC Swallow DVT on pre-order at Rails for almost a year now. When I phoned Dapol in March I was told it was due for release during the summer, but the fact that there's frost on the ground and I'm wearing a jumper would suggest they've slightly missed their target.

JB

[ScottyStitch]

To be fair, most of it turns up eventually. I can only think of a couple of things that have been cancelled (Farish 9F and Dapol Pendolino). R&D takes time, particularly when being done in a foreign language on a different continent.

Farish are fairly secretive about their R&D but I know Dapol have had to scrap some work in the past and start from scratch which accounts for some of the delays. Most industries have some projects that get delayed through bad luck, poor research or inadequate investment.

Karhedron. Thanks for the reply.
There seems to something fundamentally wrong with your thinking here - and I'm not trying to put you down here but..
The manufacturers of N gauge products are there to provide us with a service i.e. Product delivered to the required quality within promised timescales. That is no different to any other product on the planet. Why should N gauge be different?
Product which turns up eventually is not acceptable
Product which does not work out of the box is not acceptable
If we continue to give N gauge manufacturers the benefit of the doubt for their failings then things will not improve.
I love N gauge and when products work well they are a joy to behold - but it doesn't happen often enough.

To be fair, I think the manufacturers could and would argue that they don't promise a time scale. They give a rough date when an item is expected........When they launch the product, there's no reason to believe that they are being deceitful about that date, but it certainly isn't a promise.