Cutting Costs on RTR Models

[silly moo]

What about wagons and coaches? UM don't do them.

[Dorsetmike]

This is just another version of do we just play trains, are we railway modellers or are we rivet counters? I'm all for the UM approach and will add whatever detail I want; as others have said detail which is not easily seen is superfluous - except to a rivet counter.

The days of the basic 6 wheel Farish chassis - "one size fits all" - is definitely not somewhere we need return to however I think we have gone too far in the opposite direction which has pushed costs way up.

I would imagine quite a few of the cottage industry fraternity have fallen by the wayside, not so easy to find detailing parts these days, vac pipes, lamp irons, Westinghouse pumps and similar items. 

[red_death]

What's the general feeling amongst N gaugers - do we need the finely detailed underframes that sometimes are totally hidden and some of the ultra fine detail?

Isn't the idea that things are totally hidden or only visible if you hold the wagon upside a bit of a myth - underframes can be very visible depending on: the prototype and what height/angle you view something at (ie if your layout is at waist level then it may be valid, but if at or near eye level then the underframe becomes much more visible).

Where the manufacturers could make savings is changing the design from several individual pieces which need fitting separately to thinking more creatively about to mould more pieces as one part.

Would we be prepared to accept fewer variations of a particular release, for example a steam loco having flush-sided or rivited tenders or a diesel with or without, say, extra headlights or bufferbeam valances.

I would provided the shape and detail were correct for the particular releases.  What I wouldn't like to see is locos decorated with liveries or numbers that were incorrect for that variation, though I accept that may make me a minority.

I've no problem with people having to do some modelling!

I think we have been incredibly lucky over the last 5-10 years with a glut (at times too much!) of well detailed and performing stock at very reasonable prices. I've noticed that I'm much more careful about what I buy now than I was 5 years ago - a combination of rising prices, the fact I have far too much stock which I will never use for a layout and being squeezed on other areas of living costs.

It was only a matter of time before the Chinese workers wanted more pay - you can only chase cheap labour for so long.

Cheers, Mike

[RussellH]

No point having detail just because they can, especially with a coupler the size of a pallet load of bricks at either end. Do the details that matter, are sensible and economic to produce and are visible. Maybe make the detail parts (typically found in the bag) an "accessory part" to buy separately  - so long as they take the price off the basic product.

Take the time to verify the design to avoid expensive problems later.

Stop doing red lights on the rear of diesel locos - only applicable light engine. cost saving?

Test everything out of the factory and send the duds back - why pay for them to fixed over here?

Packing - bulk packs of items that run in long rakes? - MGR wagons of instance.

3D printing...
Will not replace anything mainstream until the talent void has been filled and knowing today's game system jockeys I don't see how that's going to happen. We did the 92 and had it resin moulded - still plenty left as (IMHO) there are not the "modeller's" to make them. Lots want them - only a few can actually finish and paint them.

Prices gone up by 20% - thats 20% fewer sales or spend the £'s with other cheaper manufacturers! At least it was a bold honest step - they could have done it gradually over a few years.

Respect to all.
Russ

[steve836]

I feel a bit in the middle here! I have both steam and diesel locos, mostly Farish, but I have one U. M. loco, a J29 which is, I.M.O. a lovely little model. Not as detailed as my Farish ones (the Midland Pullman is a beaut) but it pulls a scale length train and to me that is the important thing and the reason I stuck with N gauge when I moved house and had the chance to go back to OO. 18ft gives a lovely appearance of a railway in the countryside in N but becomes too cramped for a main line look in OO.
My problem comes from needing to use a U.M. 0-6-0 on heavy mineral traffic and the Farish 8f on short pick-up goods! Perhaps I could afford a U.M. 7f

[Roy L S]

I think the Union Mills approach should be copied by Farish and Dapol (and any other UK 148th scale RTR modelers, perhaps Arnold's Belle ?)

My problem is that good reliable running from Union Mills is steam outline and not diesel or electric post TOPS models.

If Union Mills can produce reliable and attractive steam then I can see no reason why a U K based manufacturer can not make reasonable representations of 'modern' outline models.

I understand that setting up a company to emulate UM's success is fraught with risk and uncertainty but it gives the opportunity for locally produced good running robust models that give us a chance to add "super" details, becoming modelers rather than vehicle controllers.

If it's as obvious as I think it is, why oh why does Farish, Dapol, Hornby (?) or Heljen(?)  not do it ?

My pet frustration is not meeting advertised availability dates. Whilst I do not follow such things from UM (kettles are not of interest) they don't seem to suffer from that problem.

Maybe we just petition UM to do  diesels as well !

I fundamentally disagree. Union Mills has it's place as a niche supplier of basic but robust models no mainstream manufacturer would ever be likely to do but to champion them as some kind of model for what the future of British N should look like takes us back years. Akin to a return to the Farish models of not so long ago that I for one am very glad to have left behind.

It has to be said that in recent years we have been spoiled by cheap models (in relative terms) of ever increasing quality. Fifteen years ago list price of a UK made Farish A4 was £89.95, no separate fittings, no see through wheels, brake gear DCC socket. coreless motor etc and yet today we have the Ivatt 2-6-0 with all of those things listing at £104.95. In a comparative sense allowing for inflation over that period that is very cheap and will remain so even at £120.

The prospect of UK manufacturing returning any time soon is slight, even with the recent price hike and doubtless more to follow the cost differential will remain enormous. Therefore I suspect the future will be for the general principle of highly detailed models remaining the norm but with choices of simpler prototypes, cleverer production techniques and some compromises on separately fitted details mitigating cost and price increases.

Roy

[port perran]

I think detail where it can be seen is important (although with my eyes I need a close up photo to see it!). Detail that is hidden from view is of little interest to me whether it is on locos/carriages or wagons.
I'd much rather prices stayed lower rather than adding detail which I'm never going to see.

[guest311]

just thinking of the mk.1 carriages, we now get the cover plates for the corridor connections, and the air pipes for both end, which you can't fit if you have couplers.

how much do these parts cost to produce, pack in their little plastic bag, and have someone cellotape the bag to the insert tray ?

and what percentage go straight into the spares box / bin because they are not applicable because they were not fitted, or because they can't be fitted because the carriage is in a rake which need couplers and so can't have the pipes fitted ?

so a nice thought, but IMHO totally overkill to supply both end for every carriage.

I'd have thought a better idea would have been to do as Dapol do with their loco details, and sell a separate pack with snow ploughs, screw couplings etc.

if you want them, you pay for what you want to buy, if you don't you are not paying for plastic and labour for something that's going in the bin.

just my thoughts 

[longbridge]

I think N gauge loco manufacturers need to get reliability and quality control right before adding detail that you cant see once the train is in motion.

Lack of detail doesn't seem to worry those that buy Union Mills and they know that their loco is going to give them many years of trouble free running,

Nothing worse that buying a brand new loco and finding its a dud or wont pass through the points without stalling, forget the super detail and lets get QC and reliability right first.

[Karhedron]

Test everything out of the factory and send the duds back - why pay for them to fixed over here?

That would actually cost a lot more. I remember Dave Jones estimated once that the cost in man hours to test run each loco would add something like £15 to the cost.

It is cheaper for them to order slightly bigger runs and simply replace the duds in the UK.

[PLD]

I remember Dave Jones estimated once that the cost in man hours to test run each loco would add something like £15 to the cost.

But that is exactly what he has promised to personally do with his new DJM range...

[1936ace]

I this why peco stuff is still a good price. I read on the forum everywhere that is not acurate but a generic chassis and same for the body with the print changed to represent the livery or owner and the dapol or farish equivalent is better be tailed etc
I'm happy with peco and having never seen anything in person I can't compare it( does this make me lucky )
Bart

[Chatty]

And Bart it continues to sell.

Kind regards

Geoff

[Jim Martin]

Genuine question: does this debate happen in any other country? It seems to be a very British thing, that "crappier but cheaper" = "better".

Jim

[ScottyStitch]

I like the fact that the quality of models is very good now, the shapes are generally very accurate, and in most cases accurate enough for me not to know if it's "wrong". They all pretty much really look like what they're supposed to be. That said, I wouldn't bemoan the demise of the "bits bag" too much, although I'd still like the option of the scale bogies on steam engines.

One thought did cross my mind that might reduce cost. Could the manufacturer make an engine in a particular livery and then supply a sheet with all or a selection of numbers of that particular class in that particular livery for the modeler to select and add themselves. This, rather than a production run with a number. then another production run with another number, etc. Just a thought. I'd probably buy more of a model in one go if that were the case, rather than wait for another numbered version to be produced.

Take the Dapol A4s. Some are produced in BR Green Early Crest, some in BR Green Late Crest. From what I can tell it's the same green, the only difference is the crest on the tender. Why not produce the engine in BR Green, numbered, and provide a Green tender without crest and let us choose which one to put on? I'd have bought more A4s by now if they did that......