What a fabulous organisation these people are. Order anything from the United States, and they are right there with their hands out. Today I've been charged more than ever before.
I purchased a Kato loco from a guy in Chicago. The robbing gits charged me £20.50 in VAT and then of course there is the extortionate standard £8 Royal Mail charge on top.
For a loco which cost me £85.00, I have had to pay a third extra on top to the Customs and Excise and Royal Mail.
Has anyone else fallen foul of this "professional" organisation, as I feel they make the charges up as they go along. Only three months ago, I bought a completely identical Kato loco but wearing a different colour scheme, and was "only" charged £10.25 plus the Royal Mail £8 charge. Shipping was exactly the same in both cases.
Very disgruntled.
Andy
UK
:veryangry:
Hi Andy
With VAT at 20% did they explain how they arrived at £20.50 on an item worth £85.00 ?
It is standard import VAT of 20% each time - that is why on the face of it many UK stockists of non-EU items are more expensive.
Sounds like the seller either used a different USD value or the exchange rate used was different.
If HMRC have charged you different amounts for the same value item then I would ask them why...
Cheers, Mike
er, HMRC not HMCE
Sounds like you did not contact the retailer in advance, to request Duty Import exemption
Strange the Import Duty has changed from £10.25 to £20.50
You can of course appeal their charge or request a refund with a valid reason
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-customs-dutyimport-vat-relating-to-imports-by-post-bor286 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-customs-dutyimport-vat-relating-to-imports-by-post-bor286)
Does that £85.00 include the postage? I have been stung for UK VAT on items from Japan inclusive of the postage...even though the majority has been 'spent' outside of the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if the same happened on items from the US also.
Quote from: ngaugepaul on October 18, 2017, 06:53:52 PM
Hi Andy
With VAT at 20% did they explain how they arrived at £20.50 on an item worth £85.00 ?
Calculation :
Cost in USD converted to GBP (as shown on label)
Import Duty 2.5%
VAT 20%
Royal Mail Handling fee £8.00
There should be no import duty on model trains: https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/9503003000 (https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/9503003000) or rather the rate should be 0%.
So should only be VAT plus handling charge, but the VAT will include the shipping cost IIRC.
Cheers, Mike
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3761-181017204302.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56861)
Quote from: red_death on October 18, 2017, 07:12:51 PM
There should be no import duty on model trains: https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/9503003000 (https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/9503003000) or rather the rate should be 0%.
So should only be VAT plus handling charge, but the VAT will include the shipping cost IIRC.
Cheers, Mike
The commodity code for importing is 9503003000.
Goods are subject to VAT standard rate.
Importing from outside the EU is subject to a third country duty of 0.00 % unless subject to other measures.
Import measures and restrictions for specific countries can be found under the import tab.
I have a package on the way from the USA which has a shipped value of USD213. I know that I will face a bill of over £40 when it gets to Heathrow for its break of journey - usually about 5 days. The sender has declared the shipped value as they should.
There are some roundabouts though if the sender under declares the value. I once had a package from Australia where the declared value was only 10% of what I paid, and the contents were conveniently mis-described as well. It arrived unscathed and in very quick time.
To me, this cartoon is precisely how democracies have found themselves in pickles all around the world. Comparing the levying of a tax on imports with an extortion racket carried out by armed thugs is missing the whole point -- import taxes are there to generate revenue for the government, which is spent on things that clearly matter such as the NHS, schools and Social Security.
Sure, it's a funny gag, and sure, we'd all like to avoid spending more on buying our toy trains. But at the end of the day the 'government's cut' is there to do good. If you think it too high, then find out what each party proposes to do with it at the next general election, and choose your MP accordingly. But if we all pay less in tax, the government will have less to spend on all those things it has to pay for.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Snowwolflair on October 18, 2017, 08:43:25 PM
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3761-181017204302.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56861)
Importing N gauge is laughably cheap even with the VAT and VAT collection fee. I have bought G scale locos from the USA and the postage plus 20% VAT on the price including postage would make everyone here wince. Many of the items bought just cannot be obtained in the UK.
I have to agree with the 'pay up and look big' opinion regarding taxes but truly resent the £8 fee charged by the PO who do pretty close to nothing for the money.
A not too recent incident with said organisation went sour when having got a card to say duty was payable I went on line, paid the tax and with some resentment the extra fee and requested a redelivery.
The parcel wasn't delivered so best part of a week later, armed with my receipt, I drove 16 miles(there and back) to collect it. The uninterested chap at the counter said my payment wasn't listed; 'It happens sometimes.'
Dave G
Agreed that the VAT collection fee does wrankle a lot - especially when its Parcelforce at £14.00.
Quote from: daveg on October 19, 2017, 07:50:07 AM
I have to agree with the 'pay up and look big' opinion regarding taxes but truly resent the £8 fee charged by the PO who do pretty close to nothing for the money.
Dave G
The Royal Mail fee is at the lower end of the scale when it comes to service charges. I would not do it for less either. I have a neighbour who constantly complains about the cost of sending a letter, and gets incensed because he converts every amount to pre-decimalisation £sd, which is a reminder of 46 years of price inflation. I couldn't find a willing child to take a letter to the posting box for what RM charge to deliver it to the ends of our country.
It would be nice if Forum members could give good examples of the amounts of duty they end up paying when buying from various parts of the world to their respective countries, so that we can all get a good idea of what could be charged.
I have noted many buy from Japan into the U.K., for instance, but don't recall seeing any details of what duty and other charges had to be paid. I know some packages have been received without levy (there seems to be some that 'get through' the HMRC rules) but it would be nice to know what should be, and is, charged.
I for one am put off by buying from the States or the Orient due to the uncertainty of what might get bolted on to the otherwise highly attractive prices quoted in distant lands. I buy a lot from Germany but while we are still in the E.U. there are no duities. Indeed, I can often get packages from Germany delivered for far less (or for free) than some U.K. sellers charge for the same items!
(If none of this makes sense it's cos I've got an awful headache! :( )
In simple terms you should expect to pay 20% of the item value plus postage plus £8 if Royal Mail are handling it or £12 if Parcel Force are doing the job.
However:
- If the total value is less than £15 and for an individual it should come through free
- If the item has been mis-described and gone into the wrong customs category you may get an extra 2% (or possibly more) duty - and 20% VAT on the duty.
- If the item is examined by HMRC and they think it has been mis-declared (e.g. a £500 model declared as a £5 toy) they may get upset and sieze the goods - if they think that you are trying to dodge the charges (e.g. asked the seller to label it as a gift) they may fine or prosecute you.
For chapter and verse:
https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty (https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty)
Sometimes things heading to a private address (but not to commercial premises) will slip through the net - but don't rely on that when making your purchasing decision.
Many thanks Ian for your comments and the link. :thumbsup:
I had felt that the simple addition of U.K. VAT was the essential charge, but so often folks here have mentioned buying from, say, Japan, that I had wondered if there was more to it.
For example: Whenever I check suppliers prices in Japan I have a habit of mentally adding on that 20%, as well as the postage charges levied by the seller. When I compare that result with a price given by some U.K. suppliers for the self same item, I usually fail to see any great attraction of buying from Japan. In fact, on occasion a price here has proved to be cheaper, even with the import duties added to the alternative.
Of course, if it's a Japanese manufactured item then it may be available earlier than here in the U.K., but with the physical risks of very long distance transport (loss, damage etc) and the greater hassle of returning a faulty item, I have so far concluded that it is simpler to wait and buy locally.
Others of course may have an alternative view, which is of interest to me.
Quote from: daffy on October 19, 2017, 10:57:35 AM
Of course, if it's a Japanese manufactured item then it may be available earlier than here in the U.K., but with the physical risks of very long distance transport (loss, damage etc) and the greater hassle of returning a faulty item, I have so far concluded that it is simpler to wait and buy locally.
Others of course may have an alternative view, which is of interest to me.
I do careful calculations on total Japanese/US prices v. UK prices, but only for items I can actually get here in the UK. More often than not a decision to buy from the US or Japan is driven by availability rather than price. I take as my example the Tomytec WBM-L01 motorised bus chassis which is available sporadically at DMToys in Germany, listed at Osborn's in the UK but unavailable, listed and available at Walthers in the US. DM Toys want EUR79.99 euros plus shipping (free over EUR300), Osborn's want GBP59.95 plus shipping, and Walthers want USD52.99 plus shipping/documentation and an inevitable customs and RM handling charge. The item is not available in Japan. For my recent order I latched on to a one day discounted price at Walthers. Even with discounted shipping DMToys is not in the race, but if they were available at Osborn's my order would have gone to them, simply because it would have been quicker and about the same price as from Walthers in the US after the Walthers add-ons and the importation costs.
I've just seen this thread. As an ex-employee of HMC&E (as it was then) I find the tone of the original post rather objectionable and inappropriate for this forum and rather reminiscent of certain tabloid newspaper journalism. I'm glad to see that various subsequent posts have set the record straight.
Thanks Mike @woodbury22uk (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1599)
I have noted DM are on the dear end of most items, so I am not surprised to see such a high price from them. Osborns are good - when they have the stock. I shall take a look at Walthers. :thumbsup:
I recently bought two Tomytec WB006 MB Citaro 0530 PTT buses from DM and paid more than I like, so maybe should have gone for the direct from Japan route. :hmmm: they would probably have escaped any duty. (Faller item number 264569)
Re those buses: they have fitments for the WBM-L02 chassis/power unit, which I shall not need. As you have an active interest in the motorised bus system, and have produced some really good mods shown elsewhere on the Forum, I wonder if they are of interest to you? If so pm me and I can get them sent to you.
Quote from: daffy on October 19, 2017, 11:44:50 AM
Thanks Mike @woodbury22uk (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1599)
Re those buses: they have fitments for the WBM-L02 chassis/power unit, which I shall not need. As you have an active interest in the motorised bus system, and have produced some really good mods shown elsewhere on the Forum, I wonder if they are of interest to you? If so pm me and I can get them sent to you.
Thanks for thinking of me @daffy (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5634) . PM sent.
Quote from: daveg on October 19, 2017, 07:50:07 AM
I have to agree with the 'pay up and look big' opinion regarding taxes but truly resent the £8 fee charged by the PO who do pretty close to nothing for the money.
You may resent the £8 fee charged by Royal Mail but I could counter that by saying you are making accusations from a position of complete ignorance.
When the plane lands with your parcel on it RM would gladly just load it on to their lorry and transport it to the nearest mail centre but if it is amongst the ones that HMRC decides to check RM have to spend time transporting and storing it prior to its inspection. If a levy is subsequently raised RM initially pay the tax to speed up the items release for delivery and are then tasked with recovering the tax and the administration involved. RM have to write to you not the HMRC and transport the parcel to your local office. Once the tax has been paid RM have to confirm it to HMRC then deliver the parcel which they have had to store. If you decide you don't want to pay RM have to advise HMRC and arrange to return the parcel to the sender and recover the tax they have paid on your behalf.
If you believe that to be 'close to nothing' and doesn't justify £8 I suggest you set up your own courier company and attempt to do it for less. Yes I do work for RM.
Appreciate that my parcel, along with a fair quantity of others on any day, is passed through the hands to RM and there is a cost attached to that.
I also appreciate the quite reasonable price of letters and parcels the PO charge. What I don't appreciate is poor customer service that I have paid for on top of whatever I was charged to ship it to my address by the supplier.
Dave G
Quote from: thebrighton on October 19, 2017, 02:33:53 PM
[quote author=daveg link=topic=39109.msg470420#msg470420
If you believe that to be 'close to nothing' and doesn't justify £8 I suggest you set up your own courier company and attempt to do it for less. Yes I do work for RM.
I also work for Royal Mail. I always wondered what happened with the £8 surcharge on the Customs jobs, as although I worked in "The Cage" for a time, nobody ever explained to me the full process of these.
I still stand by what I said in my original posting though, even if Crepello isn't very happy about it. There seems to be no standard charge. How can I have been charged two different prices for exactly the same locomotive, one price being exactly double what the other was, with no explanation?
Andy
UK
Oh and "Thebrighton".....
Stand Up Brother! You know what this means!
Andy
UK
Quote from: texhorse on October 19, 2017, 06:25:04 PM
How can I have been charged two different prices for exactly the same locomotive, one price being exactly double what the other was, with no explanation?
Was the first one declared at a lower value or as a different category of goods, Andy?
Quote from: Ian Morton on October 19, 2017, 10:39:34 AM
- If the item is examined by HMRC and they think it has been mis-declared (e.g. a £500 model declared as a £5 toy) they may get upset and sieze the goods - if they think that you are trying to dodge the charges (e.g. asked the seller to label it as a gift) they may fine or prosecute you.
I don't know it this is still the case, but some time ago, I bought a very small camera from Japan, for railway video purposes, for a very good price, as advertised in RM.
On arrival in the UK, HM Customs decided I hadn't paid enough for it, and applied a 'notional value' which was more than I paid, and then taxed me on that value.
Also, based on past research, as the importer of goods from abroad, the receiver is responsible for the customs declaration, not the sender (which makes complete sense when you think about who pays the duty/tax).
Quote from: keithfre on October 19, 2017, 06:32:04 PM
Quote from: texhorse on October 19, 2017, 06:25:04 PM
How can I have been charged two different prices for exactly the same locomotive, one price being exactly double what the other was, with no explanation?
Was the first one declared at a lower value or as a different category of goods, Andy?
Actually Keith, the first loco was £79 and the second was £85 in value as I got them from different sellers, the first in Washington State, the other in Chicago. So can we assume if you buy a loco just £6 more expensive, or from a state nearer to home, you get charged more customs?
Andy
UK
I have some very vague memory that US States each have different tax rates. Could this apply to goods shipped abroad, that is, goods from one State having a different State tax applied than that from another?
As I say, a vague memory, and one that may not apply at all to shipped goods. Just thought I'd put it out there.
Daffy, you're correct. Not only do states have different rates, but also cities and counties extort sorry, collect taxes at different rates and based on different systems. Most states are "destination" states for "sales and use" tax purposes, meaning a supplier will charge a tax based on where the item is shipped to rather than where it is shipped from, provided they have an "establishment" in the destination state. If they don't have an establishment in the destination, they are supposed to leave off the tax and it's the responsibility of the receiver to declare and pay the tax (usually on their annual state tax return) - which is why they've termed it a use tax. Of course complicating this is the fact there are 12 states (AZ, CA, IL, MS, MN, NM, OH, PA, TN, TX, UT, VA) that are "origin" states and will charge tax based on where it is shipped from. Added to that is that CA is actually "mixed" in that city, county and state taxes are origin based, but district taxes (yes, they have those too) are destination based. There is no national/federal sales tax and some states don't have a sales and use tax at all.
My assessment would be that an exported item would not include a sales tax if it comes from a destination state, but may have it if it comes from an origin state...always assuming the vendor is set up to do it correctly, which is a pretty bold assumption (I'm currently fighting this issue as I live in a destination state in a low-tax county and most in-state suppliers want to charge me their higher county tax even if they ship the item to my home).
Of course the sales taxes here are typically less that VAT to begin with (mine is 6-3/4%), so the export savings are not as important. In addition, prices are almost never quoted to include tax (personal pet peeve).
Frankly, it sounds like the OP was charged twice, possibly through some fat-fingering.
Jon
Good grief Jon. Your post was quite an eye opener.
Here in Australia I don't think I've ever been charged tax from a US origin. To be sure, the seller sometimes states if you are a resident of their state, then you are subject to their sales tax. If I've been taxed in an 'origin' state, I just haven't been aware of it.
We don't pay import duty or import charges provided the value of the imported tem including transport is less than $1000. It seems the government had decided that the cost of levying the duty was not worth the effort. However, a few of our big retailers want to have the duty reimposed to discourage overseas sales that don't run through them. Apparently, the government has been listening and the duty-free limit is going to be reduced considerably next July.
I buy virtually all of my railway stuff from overseas mainly because I can't get it here at any price.
Webbo
Just to counter that post about taxes here in the US.
In practice the effect of sales taxes is rather small and everyone expects to see tax added to any item purchased.
For example, I just bought a fancy LED desk lamp for my new study. It was priced at $199.95, I paid $214.75. This includes city, county and state sales taxes.
If the shop had been in my county and town, then taxes would have been around half that, but unless you are buying a car no-one seems to care that much.
There is no VAT or Federal sales tax here, average taxes in a city run around 7% in the county probably around 4% (for Colorado).
So when buying from the UK there is no VAT to pay at all, and the Federal Excise duty for model trains is 0%. So I can buy an item at Hattons (let's say), and the VAT saved more than compensates for having it delivered by DHL International and getting it signed for.
The effect of living in a country which levies VAT, is that almost all items purchased, whether inside or outside of that country are liable for VAT.
I do think however that the the allowance for goods could be more generous. I was confined to my house once when we still lived in the UK. My US colleagues sent me a Gameboy to play with as I couldn't do much. When the postie delivered it he asked me for 30 quid, or he wouldn't deliver.
As I hadn't bought it and it was genuinely a gift I felt that was a little steep, but I had no choice.
For an example of taxes and duties working against us here, when we bought a new house we had to pick all the carpets, we say a very nice imported woollen Axminster at $9.99, so we said we'll have that. When we say the total price we found that carpet in the US is priced per square foot! not per square yard. So it was working out at nearly 10 times what you would pay in the UK.
We though about buying it in the UK and getting sent out to the US, but after looking at the US Customs tariffs for carpets, we found that they would want around 300% on top of the UK price!
So we bought wooden floors instead.And if you gave benn to the US and wonder why many people don't have wallpaper, it's because it is too expensive for the 'average joe'
to buy!
Regards,
John P