Hello all, I'm new here so forgive my first post.
Am I the only modeller who hates seeing trains go round in circles? Probably not, but my real bug is mix matched formations. I recently saw a fantastic looking model on youtube only to be horrified by the fully fitted train having a brake van >:( :doh: I was seething! Or perhaps a wonderful model set in the glorious 1950's ruined by a class 47 with garish red livery, - makes my blood boil.
But here is my question for modellers who go for the extra realism, - how should a rake of Mk 1 coaches be formed behind a loco? It would be interesting to hear your opinions so here is the task, - It is an 8 or 10 coach formation and must include a buffet or restaurant car.
Go ahead punk, make my day...
Welcome. Slightly curious first post.
What do you mean by circles? As in one train doing lap after lap of a layout? Or do you mean you only like end-to-end layouts?
There are plenty of examples of fitted trains with brake vans, just because they're not necessary doesn't mean it never happened.
There is no right way to form rakes of coaches, if you want true fidelity then look for photographic or written evidence of the services you wish to emulate in the right geographic location and time period. The composition of a steam operated service will be very different to a modern charter set, even though both could meet your criteria.
Until about the late 60s, when BR changed the rules, even fully fitted freights were required to have a brake van as accommodation for the guard. Or it could have been a requirement to get a brake van to a destination for another duty.
As for passenger formations, as has already been said, study photos, or look on more specialised websites; I have the East Anglian area coaching working diagrams which I obtained for a very modest charge (less than £1 each year) from the Great Eastern Railway Society website. The working diagrams will give you plenty of ideas..........
HTH
martyn
You need to come and see what I get up to bloke, I reckon I could tip you over the edge! I love watching the same train going round chasing it's own tail, and as for loco/stock combinations...
:laugh3:
Welcome to the forum :wave:
'Horrified' - 'Seething' - 'blood boiling'
Oh dear. In steam days there was no room on the footplate for a guard so the poor soul had to be somewhere, even on a fitted freight, hence the goods van.
As to train formations, there is no set answer as it depends what sort of train it was and where it was so maybe some clue as to region might help some of our experts. As an example, holiday traffic would expect to carry more luggage so would have more capacity for that etc
There are (were) plenty of examples of fully fitted freight trains running with brake vans. Until sometime around the 1990s any train carrying damgerous goods needed a guards van. Trains that needed a long propelling (reversing) move would also have a brake van.
Are you asking how should a rake of Mk1s be formed? The answer depends very much on era and location.
By the period I'm modelling (1980/90s), most Mk1 based trains (even those with 8+ coaches) didn't have buffets or restaurant cars. I have nine trains made up of wholly mk1 coaches, ranging from 4 to 10 carriages in length. Only two (one charter, one steam special) have buffet cars - prototypically none of the others did.
A class 47 on a layout set in the 1950s has bigger problems that the colour - the first one wasn't built until 1962.....
Steven B.
Martyn,- The video I was referring to was a modern rake (hoppers) pulled by a 47 I think. I didn't know about all fully fitted trains pre 196? and me being an ex-driver as well!!
Njee20 , yes, I mean seeing 90 degree curves and trains appearing again in the predictable place.
Steven B , agreed on era, although I thought 1st class should always be at the front or rear or next to restaurant car?
I'm in the middle of making a very simple but visually stimulating layout where, without using dcc, you'll never guess what train is coming from where. An easy design, track wise, but will probably be be a bugger to wire?
I don't know the answer for Cross-Country sets, but at least in more recent times, and at least as early as the 60s, 1st Class was usually marshalled at the London end of the train, though possibly with a brake second or brake composite as end vehicle, though brake first also exist. Frequently, the buffet/dining car would be the next vehicle away from London after the first section. It is also noted that at lest on a number of Liverpool St-Norwich (and other workings from Liverpool St) that there were sometimes no full first coaches, but a number of composites at the London end of the train.
Check photos and other websites!
Martyn
Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
...................................
Go ahead punk, make my day...
What?
Alec.
Don't forget that trains of ballast hoppers often have/had Shark brake vans at both ends. There are still some modern freight trains with a brake at the ends where long propelling moves are involved. The vehicles may not be conventional brake vans, but provide a way for the brake to be controlled from that vehicle and for somebody to ride on/in it safely whist doing so.
Try the former Highland railway lines, you could have some mark 1s followed by some freights fitted or unfitted followed by a brake van. This continued well into diesel days.
In highland railways time they were probably the last railway to have unfitted freights between the loco and the carriages..
As for circular railways the roundy roundy is popular how often you can change trains depends on your number of tracks in the fiddle yard. I've seen layouts with problems having to run a circulating single train while someone was underneath doing repairs..
Rule 1 applies
That is all!
Quote from: Invicta Alec on October 22, 2018, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
...................................
Go ahead punk, make my day...
What?
Alec.
A paraphrase of Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry @Invicta Alec (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5868)
Quote from: martyn on October 22, 2018, 05:36:54 PM1st Class was usually marshalled at the London end of the train, though possibly with a brake second or brake composite as end vehicle, though brake first also exist. Frequently, the buffet/dining car would be the next vehicle away from London after the first section.
Just the confirmation I was looking for, many thanks Martyn.
The beauty of the internet is that it makes it possible to find prototypes for all kinds of combinations of vehicles which would normally be written off as implausible.
Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
But here is my question for modellers who go for the extra realism, - how should a rake of Mk 1 coaches be formed behind a loco? It would be interesting to hear your opinions so here is the task, - It is an 8 or 10 coach formation and must include a buffet or restaurant car.
Which era? What kind of locomotive? Somewhere I've seen a picture of a steam locomotive (possibly "Flying Scotsman") at the head of a rake of InterCity-liveried Mk1s. The possibilities are endless.
Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 05:18:44 PM
although I thought 1st class should always be at the front or rear or next to restaurant car?
It depends... On trains heading to or from London the first class section was at the London end. As a rule of thumb there would be a buffet car followed by second class. Some trains had catering cars either side of first class.
Cross country (i.e. not ariving/departing London) could have first class accomodation (usually CK) either at both ends or often in the middle.
Again, knowing which area and era you're planing to model would help us make better suggestions.
Quote from: Lawrence on October 22, 2018, 07:20:05 PM
Rule 1 applies
That is all!
And how many real Trains's have full size Arnold couplers?
Full scale fidelity is a myth and inachievable - Rule1 is not!
( not to mention the OO brigade, OO bodies on HO track)
Our track is too narrow as well, not just OO gauge...!
There's nothing wrong with trying to emulate a prototype. No one's saying that 100% fidelity is achievable, but if people want to get as close as practically possible that's their prerogative.
Start getting MRJ every month ;)
Quote from: railsquid on October 23, 2018, 08:12:23 AM
The beauty of the internet is that it makes it possible to find prototypes for all kinds of combinations of vehicles which would normally be written off as implausible.
Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
But here is my question for modellers who go for the extra realism, - how should a rake of Mk 1 coaches be formed behind a loco? It would be interesting to hear your opinions so here is the task, - It is an 8 or 10 coach formation and must include a buffet or restaurant car.
Which era? What kind of locomotive? Somewhere I've seen a picture of a steam locomotive (possibly "Flying Scotsman") at the head of a rake of InterCity-liveried Mk1s. The possibilities are endless.
This is the set I was thinking of, and does indeed include a buffet car:
http://www.hondawanderer.com/47816_Banbury_1990.htm (http://www.hondawanderer.com/47816_Banbury_1990.htm)
You can create a "typical" rake, ie one that would be common to the area and era your emulating, then you can have a protypical rake, this is one that has been created in order to fill the service with whatever they had available.
I can recall my days on the WCML with many short formed takes including the buffet car being missing (a couple of times a cross country MK2 mini buffet being used instead, not many happy passengers expecting a full restaurant service on those days), other rakes have had the Mk3 buffet marshaled behind the loco in place of a regular MK2 or Mk3 TSO.
So all in all there is no real set way to put together a rake, just have fun and if it looks right then run it (there's probably a picture of it online anyway)
Catering vehicles were sometimes at the end of the train as they were added/dropped off at intermediate stations en route.
Best regards,
Joe
I suffer from CDO - its like OCD but with the letters arranged in correct alphabetical order... ::) :P
Quote from: joe cassidy on October 23, 2018, 06:34:50 PM
Catering vehicles were sometimes at the end of the train as they were added/dropped off at intermediate stations en route.
Best regards,
Joe
I'd agree with this, On the Kyle line the Buffet car didn't even do the full trip, but was dropped off half way along and the train going the other way, they passed at that point picked it up.
Quote from: PLD on October 23, 2018, 08:43:31 PM
I suffer from CDO - its like OCD but with the letters arranged in correct alphabetical order... ::) :P
:laughabovepost: