Hello all
First of all this is the first post i have made to the forum, even though i joined a while back.
Too busy to participate daily, but perhaps someone here has an answer to todays question from me.
Has anyone seen or bought the Ayjay 2-BIL kit yet?
I've just got back from holiday and i see its available.
I see he's also planning a 2mm "Bullied style" 2-HAL number series 2693-99, a
3-SUB and the derivative 1970s deicing units.
See
http://www.southernregionmodels.co.uk/2013/07/news-flash-2mm-2bils-are-in-90-per-kit/ (http://www.southernregionmodels.co.uk/2013/07/news-flash-2mm-2bils-are-in-90-per-kit/)
I know this has been a while coming, and I guess he's had to move into N with
the Hornby 2-BIL taking part of his OO trade, perhaps?
Best
Bob
Welcome in Bob. Just wish I could understand it sounds Southern Electrickery to me.
£90 for a resin kit is quite pricey don't you think? :confused1:
Quote from: Mr Sprue on September 01, 2013, 05:34:41 PM
£90 for a resin kit is quite pricey don't you think? :confused1:
Well I've bought shunters for about £18 and Co-Co locos for about £35 each, and this kit has two full length coach bodies, plus underframe parts for dummies and powered units, and bogies that the loco kits dont need, so by my reckoning thats about par for the course.
His OO versions are £135 each.
The parts are all here: http://www.southernregionmodels.co.uk/2013/07/the-new-2mm-2bil-kit-parts-list/ (http://www.southernregionmodels.co.uk/2013/07/the-new-2mm-2bil-kit-parts-list/)
Bob
I've been keeping an eye on those products from AyJay ...
As to price - I think it's a matter of choice as to how much you want a particular unit running on your layout and how much you'd rather have an easy life, as against make something from scratch yourself (perhaps what you save in money you end up spending on man hours instead ?? )
To me the resin castings look a bit clunky - but the photos on the website aren't that good to judge.
Anyway - good first post Bob - welcome aboard the N Gauge Forum :)
Quote from: Bob G on September 01, 2013, 01:18:34 PM
Has anyone seen or bought the Ayjay 2-BIL kit yet?
Yep, I've got one. I might take it along to TINGS on Saturday to show. I'll be around the DEMU stand although not exactly demoing but dishing out
N'spirations12 to traders.
H.
Good luck with the build if you go for it...
As to price - its what Southernboy says - its what its worth to you.
As comparison - I built a SouthEastern 465 4 Car Networker. Cab fronts were £6, four Mk2 coaches off her for £24, Class 150 Car DMU was (I think) £70, Vinyl sides were about £12, New bogies, pick up beams about another £10.. All of that gear picked up from members of this site. All I had to do was put it all together, fettle it, build the underfloor equipment.... So £90 doesn't seem that bad...
And there is that sense of pride that you didn't just open the box and put it on the rails... You can look at it and say "I made that"...
"I made that"
Yes, I think a sense of accomplishment is also part of the equation.
I've been following DorsetMike's thread 'Southern hacks and bashes' the last couple of days and I do think a little DIY goes a long way :)
Quote from: Greybeema on September 01, 2013, 08:45:41 PM
As to price - its what Southernboy says - its what its worth to you.
Yep, agree.
Sure, it's not a cheap kit but then nothing is these days and all too often N gauge enthusiasts seem to focus on the price rather than the 'value for money' which of course, is a personal thing. Presumably the price takes in to account all the costs of manufacture and the return on investment necessary, and isn't about making a fast rip-off buck.
H.
Quote from: Southernboy on September 01, 2013, 07:04:19 PM
Anyway - good first post Bob - welcome aboard the N Gauge Forum :)
My apologies for overlooking your first post Bob! :-[ As Southernboy has already mentioned welcolme to the forum.
Are AyJay the only kit supplier working in N gauge, I am talking about Southern EMU,s.
In the past I have built 2 MLVs- a 2HAP, and a 2 EPB all from DCKits. This was some years before Bachmann entered the market. I don't feel very confident about kit building in N, my eyes are not as sharp as they used to be.
Stuart.
I've been in on this from the beginning being one of those to encourage Aryan to have a dabble in 'N' so got mine a couple of weeks ago. CAD drawings looked excellent as did the the prototype with the promise of a crisper production model. With this in mind I have to confess to being disappointed with the resulting kit. There are multiple lines along the side which will need filling/filing and it looks like this and one coat of paint may lose the door lines. Definition between side and roof is patchy and being resin it is a bit banana shaped especially one side of one coach. £90 is probably fair for the work and risk dropping into 'N' but to be honest I can't see myself bothering to build it as it will require too much work. I was just hoping for a quicker option than building an etched one but if you're are looking for something that easily fits together and gives the impression of a 2 BIL you can't go far wrong.
Sorry if this is a bit negative but the production photos on the website aren't clear so you don't really know what to expect.
Gareth
I wonder if a simpler bodyshell with vinyl or etched sides might be preferaBIL? :)
Quote from: Stuart on September 02, 2013, 02:35:43 PM
Are AyJay the only kit supplier working in N gauge, I am talking about Southern EMU,s.
I don't feel very confident about kit building in N, my eyes are not as sharp as they used to be.
BHE, TPM, ERG and Worsley Works all also do kits of SR/BR EMUs in various formats; etched sides, inlays, overlays, conversions, building aids, etc. Those on my layout (see - http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=898.msg7802#msg7802 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=898.msg7802#msg7802)) have been built from all sorts of things and bits.
I wouldn't worry about your eyesight. We all get failing eyesight as we get older, and some of us have had dodgy eyes from young, but corrective glasses, magnifiers and decent lighting can all help. However, the parts in an N gauge kit are no smaller than those in OO, or even larger scale, kits and in general there are a lot less of them.
H.
Well done Gareth for encouraging AyJay to enter the N gauge market, I have taken all your observations on board and will only say that some 00 builders have mentioned similar findings, I will give one a go when my current projects are more advanced. But that wont be for a while as my bank statements are all in the red. ???
Thanks for the info.
Stuart..
Ooo errrr
I think I had better see H's one at TINGs on Saturday to make a decision :confused2:
I'm not bothered by the price, so long as the quality is there.
I like resin kits - I've won two NGS AMMC cups with resin kits - for a jackshaft shunter and an SR snowplough, and I have two other shunters (the Maunsell and the Hudswell Clarke) so i'm converted.
However, Gareth's comments on quality worry me a lot :-\ as I have spent some money over the years on resin kits that were just too poorly detailed to make financial sense.
In my view Parkwood make the best resin kits in N - closely followed by TPM (e.g. for their EMU ends and class 33/1 cab fronts). These are the only N gauge resin kits I am willing to keep and run. The original Fox models like the hymek, baby deltic and 24 were OK at the time too, but they are no longer available.
Roll on Saturday :D
Best
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on September 02, 2013, 07:57:16 PM
Ooo errrr
I think I had better see H's one at TINGs on Saturday to make a decision :confused2:
I'm not bothered by the price, so long as the quality is there.
Roll on Saturday :D
Best
Bob
Hi Bob to be honest I am not a lover of resin as it has limitations and is not as strong as thermoplastic especially on the finer detailed parts were it can become very brittle. Like yourself most kits that I have seen have been of poor quality with the parts needing a lot of finishing work to make them acceptable before any paint touched the surface!
Mine arrived a few days ago and whilst the body mouldings are not perfect I was going to start building it to see how bad the finish is at normal viewing distance before undertaking major surgery. At least it looks like a 2 BIL from an era when they made proper EMU's and it about the only type that will really suit my layout.
Incidently my kit only included 2 bogie frames wheras I was expecting 4 as shown on the website parts list. Could someone please confirm whether theirs has 2 or 4 bogie frames.
Dodger
Quote from: dodger on September 08, 2013, 06:10:50 PM
...from an era when they made proper EMU's...
So, are mine not proper then?! :scowl: :)
Quote from: Tank on September 08, 2013, 06:22:59 PM
Quote from: dodger on September 08, 2013, 06:10:50 PM
...from an era when they made proper EMU's...
So, are mine not proper then?! :scowl: :)
Uh oh! Not the dreaded can of worms being opened up here now is it! :D
Quote from: dodger on September 08, 2013, 06:10:50 PM
Incidently my kit only included 2 bogie frames wheras I was expecting 4 as shown on the website parts list. Could someone please confirm whether theirs has 2 or 4 bogie frames.
Greetings,
Mine contained 4 bogie frames.
Gareth
Four bogie frames are shown on the specification page:
http://www.southernregionmodels.co.uk/2013/07/the-new-2mm-2bil-kit-parts-list/ (http://www.southernregionmodels.co.uk/2013/07/the-new-2mm-2bil-kit-parts-list/)
Bob
Quote from: Tank on September 08, 2013, 06:22:59 PM
So, are mine not proper then?! :scowl: :)
I was brought up on 2 BIL's from the early 50's until they were replaced by 4 COR's, on the Reading line, in the early 70's.
I found emu's from that era had more charm, alot of wood in the bodies, comfortable seats in compartments, whistles and light that went out on conductor rail gaps, unlike much of the stock built from the 60's onwards.
But as someone else said it a proverbial can of worms.
dodger
Quote from: thebrighton on September 08, 2013, 07:24:28 PM
Greetings,
Mine contained 4 bogie frames.
Gareth
Thanks for that Gareth, I'll get on to them for some more.
Dodger
Quote from: dodger on September 09, 2013, 06:12:02 AM
I found emu's from that era had more charm, alot of wood in the bodies, comfortable seats in compartments, whistles and light that went out on conductor rail gaps...
Oh, I call these the 'experimental years'!!!! ;) :smiley-laughing:
Greetings,
I decided to bite the bullet and have a go at the 2 BIL but I'm still not convinced. Before tidying up I've given it a very light dusting of grey primer and it looks even worse especially the over heavy window frames. They say photos can be cruel but I have to say the one below is one of those exceptions to the rule as it makes it look a bit better!
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/55/thumb_7273.JPG) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=7273)
Due to the disappearing door lines and heavily lined sides and windows frames I've decided to file the sides smooth and rescore the doors. The moulded buffers, none of which point in the right direction, will have to go. The rain strips on the roof also have bits missing so will need replacing.
I'll keep you posted.
Gareth
Good on you for having a go Gareth :)
I think I'd go along with your disapointment judging by your photo ... it definitely looks a bit clunky.
Ultimately it's a judgement call - from normal viewing distance it's probably a good representation and in that respect would look decent-enough on a layout.
But on the other hand for those that like to photgraph their trains up-close and personal it maybe doesn't quite cut-the-mustard.
Either way, I'll be interested to see the final results :)
That picture certainly doesn't do the BIL any favours. There does seem to be real evidence of 3D printing lines on the bodysides which would need smoothing but may well obliterate the side detail.
The overall shape of the unit is good but may be a step too far in N as a single-piece resin casting. Better to have a mixed media kit with etched or printed vinyl sides, as now appearing from Etched Pixels and N-Train (and BHE have done for years).
I think Cavndish and in OO PC models started it. Back then it was screenprinted sides and aluminum profiles.
To be quite honest I agree with other that the casting quality and some of the dimensions are poor. However having finished painting one side from normal viewing distance it looks reasonable. Therefore I am not going to spend alot of time trying to improve it.
After all it looks like a 2 BIL and suits my layout better than the 4CEP, but I probably wont be making any more emu kits.
Dodger
I agree that from normal viewing distances it looks like a 2 BIL but for £90 before motorising I'd like it to look a lot more like one ;)
Gareth
Personally for £90 I think it is absolutely disgusting! Currently I am working on masters to produce kits for next year and no way would I dream of marketing rubbish like that!
Apologies if it offends but I have thrown better rejects than that in the bin.
Quote from: Only Me on October 05, 2013, 08:27:51 PM
I totally agree i saw this and thought its a poorly detailed Resin body and you want £90 maybe if the quality of the moulds was increased as the photos here make me wonder if I should do one on shapeways!
After looking at various self build kits that have been produced for N it's a wonder if most of them ever get to run on rails! Hense why I have been inspired to design and produce kits that can be simply assembled like an Airfix model.
I'm not plugging myself but I am utterly amazed as to what people have got away with and the money they charge!
I have to admit that £90 for the 2-BIL kit does seem rather pricey for what you get. All things Southern are seeing renewed popularity and the Hornby OO model keeps selling out, which tells me that this unit may well appear RTR in the near future or could be in scope for a better kit version.
Just as a comparison point, N-Train has produced a kit for the Class 313 3-Car EMU that includes bodyshells, underframes, Electra vinyls, TPM Bogies, wheels and couplings - all for £120.00. A Tomix Chassis to motorise it is another £30.00-ish. Obviously, I do declare an interest here, having co-developed this with Bob over a number of years and we have agreed to absorb most of the development costs to keep the final price reasonable.
A 3D printed BIL shell with generic window openings that could take etches or vinyls could easily be knocked up by some of the geniuses on this forum, I have no doubt. :angel:
Quote from: Mr Sprue on October 05, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
After looking at various self build kits that have been produced for N it's a wonder if most of them ever get to run on rails! Hense why I have been inspired to design and produce kits that can be simply assembled like an Airfix model.
I'm not plugging myself but I am utterly amazed as to what people have got away with and the money they charge!
We'll see how your stuff looks ;)
I actually think most N gauge kits are pretty good. There are a few bad un's (the legendary Blue Pullman kit for example). Some are also complicated to build because they are very accurate - its often a difficult trade off.
Some are also just old - they come from a time when the technology was not as good, what was achievable was not so great and modellers had more experience of modelling and less of shopping.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on October 05, 2013, 09:28:26 PM
Quote from: Mr Sprue on October 05, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
After looking at various self build kits that have been produced for N it's a wonder if most of them ever get to run on rails! Hense why I have been inspired to design and produce kits that can be simply assembled like an Airfix model.
I'm not plugging myself but I am utterly amazed as to what people have got away with and the money they charge!
We'll see how your stuff looks ;)
I actually think most N gauge kits are pretty good. There are a few bad un's (the legendary Blue Pullman kit for example). Some are also complicated to build because they are very accurate - its often a difficult trade off.
Some are also just old - they come from a time when the technology was not as good, what was achievable was not so great and modellers had more experience of modelling and less of shopping.
Hi Alan from what I have seen you are one of the few who produces kits that have had a bit of thought put into them and by this I don't mean just detail!
As for the "retro kits" yes I know who you mean and I can't believe people are still gullible to buy that rubbish.
My stuff, well I'm still working on it. I have a couple of well known people in the field producing bits and pieces for my patterns, so yes we will no doubt judge it when it materialises. Thats of course if it passes my quality control!
But like your good self if and when I succeed I will want to sleep at night and not have a guilty conscience for selling someone something, that is clearly not worth the money as we have witnessed in this thread.
Regards
David
Sure, it's not the greatest of mouldings but I don't suppose Ayran is ripping people off and making a bundle on each sale. No doubt if he could produce cheaper he would because he'd probably then sell more. And, of course he has very little experience of N gauge (being primarily an OO modeller and manufacturer). He also told me that there were compromises because the N gauge modellers who wanted him to produce the model (and he spoke to) wanted it quick, cheap and simple, and to be able to fit an inappropriate cheap off the shelf Japanese motor chassis.
Also all kit production materials have drawbacks; resin can be pitted and warps easily, vinyls can look flat and featureless, cast white metal can look blobby and is heavy, etched sheet metal can be difficult to bend and build, and 3D printed can be fragile and have unsightly build-up lines that are difficult to remove.
Most of our N gauge kit producers are small and can't afford huge development costs, top notch tool making and only have a small market to pitch to. Of course, there is room for improvement, there always is, and suitable diplomatic feedback would probably be a good approach to reap dividends and improvement.
H.
I may have sounded harsh on Ayran H but I'm sure you are well aware that RTV and resin does not cost a fortune to buy, in fact A good quality RTV costs around £23.50 for 1kg and a good resin such as Biresin G26 only costs about £37.00 for 2kg.
I would estimate to cast that 2 BIL there's about 40p of resin used if that! As for the RTV, those moulds are good for at least a 100 casts, so the maths are not hard to work out.
Hence why I feel 90 quid is a bit steep!
Whilst a part of me wants to support Ayjay models, I'm firmly standing on the side of members here getting good value for money, after all the hobby cost's enough already!
Quote from: H on October 06, 2013, 12:19:58 AM
He also told me that there were compromises because the N gauge modellers who wanted him to produce the model (and he spoke to) wanted it quick, cheap and simple, and to be able to fit an inappropriate cheap off the shelf Japanese motor chassis.
Greetings,
He also told me this late on which was odd as I was in from the beginning and I was not alone in saying the complete opposite especially as Farish 101/108's aren't expensive and the chassis still fits the moulding. He probably decided to listen to those that shouted loudest. I can't see the point of compromising when there is really no need.
As for quick and simple it isn't really as despite everything being moulded on including door hinges there are no door grab handles so you'd have to add these yourself.
I have emails going back years regarding this and it was looking very promising but I get the impression that Aryan decided he'd spent enough time on it as he was announcing more and more 'N' and just went ahead and produced a sub standard kit that falls far short of the pre production examples.
Gareth
I was interested in this model for no better reason than I find these early Southern EMUs fascinating, but I have to admit that for starters the £90 price tag put me off for something without a mechanism.
I know economies of scale (expected volume sales) must be a factor in the price per unit, but personally I could not justify buying one now I have seen close up pics of the kit. For that money (plus powered chassis to complete) I would have expected something requiring far less work to make good.
Maybe I expect too much..
Roy
Quote from: Mr Sprue on October 06, 2013, 09:36:22 AM
I would estimate to cast that 2 BIL there's about 40p of resin used if that! As for the RTV, those moulds are good for at least a 100 casts, so the maths are not hard to work out.
I guess you understand that the final price is more than just the material cost and a mark up. No doubt he will want to cover his time in producing the master (or the cost if he paid someone to do it), and it sounds like he spend a lot of time on it from what Gareth says, the gestation period and what he said to me. Then, of course, there are the other variable costs plus packaging, promotion, tax, and so on.
But I'm certainly interested in having a gander at your new kits. Is there any info on them like subjects, prices and release dates?
Quote from: thebrighton on October 06, 2013, 10:29:48 AM
He also told me this late on which was odd as I was in from the beginning and I was not alone in saying the complete opposite especially as Farish 101/108's aren't expensive and the chassis still fits the moulding. He probably decided to listen to those that shouted loudest. I can't see the point of compromising when there is really no need.
As for quick and simple it isn't really as despite everything being moulded on including door hinges there are no door grab handles so you'd have to add these yourself.
I have emails going back years regarding this and it was looking very promising but I get the impression that Aryan decided he'd spent enough time on it as he was announcing more and more 'N' and just went ahead and produced a sub standard kit that falls far short of the pre production examples.
I also said to him at an early stage about using and designing for better chassis than the Tomix stuff but he seemed to indicate that was what his customers wanted (although I was a customer). I also spoke to him well over a year ago (probably a couple) as Paul Martin was also interested (he unfortunately died some time back) and he'd chatted to me about it.
Certainly there was a rush at the end and it has resulted in missing details like handles and hinges and probably kept the price down from being even more, to satisfy those who shouted loudest. No doubt they wanted a one piece, basic, simple and cheap body moulding and I guess they wouldn't be bothered about adding missing details. However, I was expecting something better.
I'll have to have a closer look at my one when I get back from Australia (currently in the outback so little wifi access) and assess whether to build it or not.
H.
Quote from: Roy L S on October 06, 2013, 12:02:33 PM
I was interested in this model for no better reason than I find these early Southern EMUs fascinating, but I have to admit that for starters the £90 price tag put me off for something without a mechanism.
I know economies of scale (expected volume sales) must be a factor in the price per unit, but personally I could not justify buying one now I have seen close up pics of the kit. For that money (plus powered chassis to complete) I would have expected something requiring far less work to make good.
The chassis it is designed for (Tomix) is very cheap so you could actually make up the model very basically without much effort/work for not much more outlay. I have seen completed (painted and motorised versions without added details) and no doubt to many they would be acceptable as they were as good (if not better) than some N gauge models I've seen running at exhibitions (although I, and certainly Gareth, wouldn't be satisfied and they'd look poor against commercial RTR).
H.
to be qite honest I agree with most of the comments on the quality of this kit if I had waited a few days and read this post first, it started the day after I ordered mine, I probably would not have bothered.
At least its a 2BIL, one of my favorites, and suits my layout as would a wooden 2HAL. Now if a decent kit for the 2HAL was produced that would be nice.
Dodger
Quote from: H on October 06, 2013, 02:13:52 PM
But I'm certainly interested in having a gander at your new kits. Is there any info on them like subjects, prices and release dates?
H.
At present H although things are pretty much in place tooling wise, a lot of work and thought has been going into a 60' chassis which will be used to base various models.
There are two kits that are on the workbench, the first of which I am planning to release middle of next year, but I'm not going to say what they are yet until I am fully satisfied everything fits and they can be produced to a good standard.
Quote from: Mr Sprue on October 06, 2013, 09:36:22 AM
I would estimate to cast that 2 BIL there's about 40p of resin used if that! As for the RTV, those moulds are good for at least a 100 casts, so the maths are not hard to work out.
Hence why I feel 90 quid is a bit steep!
You've conveniently forgotten R&D, dud castings, test mouldings, packaging, instructions, bags, boxes and the big one - time.
Quote
Whilst a part of me wants to support Ayjay models, I'm firmly standing on the side of members here getting good value for money, after all the hobby cost's enough already!
There isn't a lot of money to be made in the N gauge kit business even as it is. All the money is in O and to an extent OO (due to volume).
Alan
Vacuum pumps, vacuum chambers, pressure pots, compressor..............................................
The costs mount, the manufacturer needs to recoup them somehow. If they don't = no new kits. Simple.
Trouble is that there's a lot of folk who want everything as cheap as chips all the time and it just isn't possible all the time. Also where the level of detail on rtr is mind boggling now compared to days of yore those same folk expect it in a kit now too. Still, can't please everyone.
Reminds me of an old saying:
'You can't get Rolls Royce quality at Ford prices.' :D
Quote from: moogle on October 06, 2013, 10:57:43 PM
'You can't get Rolls Royce quality at Ford prices.' :D
Reminds me of a story from a few years back - a friend of mine used to work for Rolls Royce.
One day someone phoned in to say his Rolls Royce had broken down and he yelled this news out to his boss ...
The announcement sent his boss into a fit of apoplexy ... but having regained his composure he announced "Young man - A Rolls Royce
NEVER breaks down! It simply
'Fails to Proceed' !!"
I love that story :)
Quote from: Mr Sprue on October 06, 2013, 05:09:53 PM
There are two kits that are on the workbench, the first of which I am planning to release middle of next year, but I'm not going to say what they are yet until I am fully satisfied everything fits and they can be produced to a good standard.
Oooo, you're making it sound exciting.
Time to start a thread about them?
H.
Quote from: NTrain on October 06, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
Vacuum pumps, vacuum chambers, pressure pots, compressor..............................................
Very true...I gather sending the masters off to be cast by the likes of CMA is also very expensive these days.
Because we have used vinyls on the 313, it has helped to keep the costs of the 3D Print down, enabling Bob to sell the unit for what I believe to be a very reasonable cost.
Quote from: H on October 07, 2013, 02:22:21 AM
Quote from: Mr Sprue on October 06, 2013, 05:09:53 PM
There are two kits that are on the workbench, the first of which I am planning to release middle of next year, but I'm not going to say what they are yet until I am fully satisfied everything fits and they can be produced to a good standard.
Oooo, you're making it sound exciting.
Time to start a thread about them?
H.
A thread about them, no not yet H! But just to re assure I am not stringing people along here this is just one of the machines I own although mines a little older! http://www.travin.co.uk/tp1.html (http://www.travin.co.uk/tp1.html)
Regarding the posts made about the costs of equipment and machinery, I fully agree that this should reflect in the retail value of an item, but the projection should be spread over a larger number of items produced and not a few.
That is of course if any costly equipment was purchased at all and by that some of the kits I've come across the word "Budget" springs to mind!
Quote from: captainelectra on October 07, 2013, 07:59:32 AM
Quote from: NTrain on October 06, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
Vacuum pumps, vacuum chambers, pressure pots, compressor..............................................
Very true...I gather sending the masters off to be cast by the likes of CMA is also very expensive these days.
CMA at not cheap, but they do seem to deliver good quality results. There are cheaper resin casters but quality in resin is always a bit hit and miss (mostly miss). I suspect resin is on its way out as a modelling medium once 3D print gets a bit better at the lower price ranges (the Envisontech stuff can already print masters at plastic moulding quality, just the price is still a bit high)
Still using white metal but solely because the weight is useful for some models
Alan
Quote from: EtchedPixels on October 07, 2013, 03:38:54 PM
Quote from: captainelectra on October 07, 2013, 07:59:32 AM
Quote from: NTrain on October 06, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
Vacuum pumps, vacuum chambers, pressure pots, compressor..............................................
Very true...I gather sending the masters off to be cast by the likes of CMA is also very expensive these days.
CMA at not cheap, but they do seem to deliver good quality results. There are cheaper resin casters but quality in resin is always a bit hit and miss (mostly miss). I suspect resin is on its way out as a modelling medium once 3D print gets a bit better at the lower price ranges (the Envisontech stuff can already print masters at plastic moulding quality, just the price is still a bit high)
Still using white metal but solely because the weight is useful for some models
Alan
Would you predict though that a 3D printer could produce models at a rate and cost equal to that of mould injection?
I think this thread has gone seriously off topic.
Regardless of quality, I aplaud this manufacturer for bringing out a model which was not currently available.
Quote from: NTrain on October 07, 2013, 06:20:02 PM
I think this thread has gone seriously off topic.
Regardless of quality, I aplaud this manufacturer for bringing out a model which was not currently available.
I can't agree with you about the quality, but as to producing something that wasn't available I agree N gauge needs that kind of contribution.
Or does it?
(http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p713/MrSprue/NGF%20Images/Ajay2BIL_zps15c9be10.jpg) (http://s1347.photobucket.com/user/MrSprue/media/NGF%20Images/Ajay2BIL_zps15c9be10.jpg.html)
With that said I am saying no more on the subject.
Well here I am, not really much further along the line with this 2-BIL malarkey.
I like the idea that we have a new manufacturer in N, especially in the SR EMU market.
I also like making kits. They have been made with various success.
My historic kits:
I have built whitemetal kits in the past (most already sold on/gone to landfill), but the Peco/Wills and GEM kits were very good (and I have kept them for posterity).
Anyone who ever tried a whitemetal MTK Western on a LifeLike chassis will know that we put up with a lot in the old days!
I had an old "Lion Models" Hymek resin kit in the mid 1990s which was total rubbish. It was a cottage manufacturer which has long since disappeared.
The Fox Models resin Hymek (and 23/24 kits) were very good for their time too, but they have been traded on as new versions appeared.
A BHE class 73 which was a whitemetal/plastic/brass kit was my first attempt at real kit (nightmare scratchaid?) building and that too has been kept for posterity.
My current kit fleet:
The current Parkwood resin models are in my view very good resin models. The models I have built are mostly unlikely to become mainstream production models (ex LMS Jackshaft Shunter (NGS AMMC winner) Class 15, Maunsell Shunter, Hudswell Clarke Shunter, SR Snowplough (NGS AMMC winner)) and they are a delight to work with.
I have also made totally brass kits (several Class 07s) which I think were really very well designed by Alan, and once i learned to work with brass i became converted to the technology.
For all these kits, a good chassis works wonders, so thak you Minitrix (V60) and Farish (04 and 08).
I updated my old BHE class 71 and 74 kits by ditching the old Farish 33 chassis, stripping them back to the original components, shoehorning them onto the Dapol hymek chassis and detailing them. They are now happy and look the part.
I have a plethora of BHE kits in various states of completion. In fact only one (a 128 on a Greenmax chassis) has made it to completion, and in the end it felt like everything was rejected from the kit apart from the brass sides - which were reworked to have recessed doors, and the whitemetal ends and plastic roof. It was really a scratch aid kit! It made it to be an NGS AMMC runner up. In fact all of my BHE EMU kits (4-TC/4-REP/Swindon units) are going to be rebuilt on ex Farish Mk 1 chassis with the brass overlays added, simply to get good running when I can get round to it
My best Mk 1 EMUs are still TPM inlays on Farish coach bodies with TPM resin cab ends which make up my 4-CIG/BIG EMU fleet, and I am very happy with these.
OMWB:
Worsley works 4-SUB shrunk to N gauge - if I can get this to look anything like my previous attempts in brass it will be superb.
Worsley works SR 20003 - ditto. But I really want a kit for 20001/20002!
GRCW Class 119. After much wondering about stretching the chassis of a 108, this is going to be a true composite of techniques: The centre coach will be mostly BHE components with Farish bogies and Farish seat inserts made to fit. The end coaches will have BHE brass sides and BHE roofs (to keep the roofline shape similar) on Dapol 121/122 motorised and dummy donor chassis. The bodies will use the plastic Dapol cab ends and drivers doors as moulded, and then the rest will be smoothed off and trimmed to support the BHE brass overlays and whitemetal coach ends. I was lucky that Dapol brought out so many that the second hand EBay price for these donor chassis was more acceptable! I personally find the roof shape on the Dapol 121 a little flat, and so the slightly more domed BHE roofs blended into the Dapol 121 curved roof ends with milliput will be the way I will go on the roofs.
Given that I seem to have moved into a brass and plastic era, and i like the crispness that brass gives you, the 2-BIL just doesnt look crisp enough for me. I have decided to hold off and see if the ex SUB de-icing units are produced, as I really do want to model 012 and 017 from Fratton. I hope those will be crisper than the current rendition of the 2-BIL, but for me I will be saving up for these de-icing units rather than the 2-BIL.
And there is enough on my workbench to keep me busy for a long while :)
Best
Bob
Hi
Just a look TPM for their models,and they closed in January,which is a shame,their models were pretty good,I wonder if Electra Graphics could start doing some early EMU's they already do a 3 H set.
Mike
Hi Mike,
I already produce a wide range of Mk1-based Southern EMUs, including the HAP, EPB, CEP, CIG and VEP. DEMU-wise, I also do the Class 207 Oxted units.
It would be nice to do some older-types but these would probably need to be in conjunction with a third-party supplier who can 3D print the right bodyshells and ends - the Mk1 would probably not cut it. I'd love to have a crack at the 4-DD :)
Quote from: Michael Hendle on October 13, 2013, 03:15:37 PM
Hi
Just a look TPM for their models,and they closed in January,which is a shame,their models were pretty good,I wonder if Electra Graphics could start doing some early EMU's they already do a 3 H set.
Mike
Just to let you know Bernard is still about, its just that he moved house around that time. If you PM him I'm sure he'll get back to you.
Quote from: captainelectra on October 13, 2013, 04:35:01 PM
I'd love to have a crack at the 4-DD :)
Bogies are a complete pig. I did look at the drawings a bit and decide not right now !