Hi all, I,m having a purpose built shed in the garden as my railway room, taking into account weather conditions whats the best board to use, MDF or plywood.
Cheers
Les
I've used MDF for a couple of portable fiddleyards, making sure it was well sealed with PVA, but I much prefer plywood.
For a shed I'd plump for well braced ply and strongly recommend you varnish both sides of the ply before attaching the framing. Remember to drill holes in any cross bracing to carry wires tidily.
MDF makes it difficult to fix track with pins (if you are intending to use track pins that is).
Depends how deep the pockets are or what's left in the kitty after shed ( railroom ) construction ?? I'd go for ply -but not the cheap Chinese stuff that's flying about ! Mdf is very hard ( predrill for track pins ) moisture unfriendly ( you can get green Mdf which is moisture resistant ) marine ply is very good -but is WAY to expensive -I would plump for a good wood yard ( usually cut for free or a minimal charge ( my local charges nothing for 5 cuts -50p there after ) I very gone for birch ply -paid £16 / 8x4 sheet via work that is very very good -flat stable and smooth -but as I said -depends what's left in the kitty ???? ;)
Quote from: outofgauge on June 09, 2017, 10:12:48 PM
Depends how deep the pockets are or what's left in the kitty after shed ( railroom ) construction ?? I'd go for ply -but not the cheap Chinese stuff that's flying about ! Mdf is very hard ( predrill for track pins ) moisture unfriendly ( you can get green Mdf which is moisture resistant ) marine ply is very good -but is WAY to expensive -I would plump for a good wood yard ( usually cut for free or a minimal charge ( my local charges nothing for 5 cuts -50p there after ) I very gone for birch ply -paid £16 / 8x4 sheet via work that is very very good -flat stable and smooth -but as I said -depends what's left in the kitty ???? ;)
Even using "good" wood suppliers you can end up with Chinese ply as I found to my cost when dealing with a very large timber importer in Bristol. Make sure you ask for and get a good European birch ply.
Geoff
I have always advocated ply, but beware splinters during construction :thumbsup:
I've used the green 22mm chipboard of flooring grade (not the cheap 'loft boards' stuff) for my computer bench cum wife's sewing bench, as it is very stable. Being tongue and groove and available in sizes up to 8' x 4', joints can, with careful planning, be kept even. It is very hard so pre-drilling would be necessary for all things of course.
Too heavy perhaps for anything but a permanently fixed location. I've built three different worktop features with it (in three houses) and never found problems with dimensional stability.
Anybody foresee any other difficulties using this for a layout baseboard?
Quote from: daffy on June 10, 2017, 10:17:25 AM
Anybody foresee any other difficulties using [22mm chipboard] for a layout baseboard?
Way too heavy and thick I'd have thought?
9mm ply is my preferred material. Easy to work with, not too heavy, takes pins if necessary (though not those feeble Peco wire pin thingies). I glue my track to cork sheet on top of the ply anyway.
I think that one of the greatest contributions to railway modelling was American Lynn Westcott's open baseboard construction.
Allows scenery above and below the track base datum.
He used ply for the trackbed.
Yes I agree, I leave the top open other than for the trackbed and buildings/roads.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/5885-100617110038.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=52606)
Thanks for all your help. Plywood it is 9mm or 12mm, what,s the best?
Quote from: Bealman on June 10, 2017, 10:55:30 AM
I think that one of the greatest contributions to railway modelling was American Lynn Westcott's open baseboard construction.
Allows scenery above and below the track base datum.
He used ply for the trackbed.
I'm with Bealman-lynn wescott's idea was a breakthrough -using 'L' girders as the Base and working up using softwood risers and plywood track bases it gives you the more options for the scenery or multilevel railway . A good view of the system is in Cyril Freezers book model railway design manual ( don't think Im allowed to upload a photo ?? Copyright ??) You just make up complex points arrangements or other track configuration on the bench -put in you wire droppers motors etc -test then plant the whole board into place and build on ! Revolutionary in its day -still stands today for permanent railways -only seen one on exhibition trail ! 9mm ply for track bed ( I used 6mm for sides 6/9mm for top but mines portable !
Thanks Neil. Freezer's book is available second hand from various sources and I shall certainly look out a copy to investigate the method.
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Model-Railway-Design-Manual-Freezer-PSL/7711837188/bd (https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Model-Railway-Design-Manual-Freezer-PSL/7711837188/bd)
:pmsign:8 check your inbox Daffy please
Quote from: first timer on June 09, 2017, 08:22:48 PM
Hi all, I,m having a purpose built shed in the garden as my railway room, taking into account weather conditions whats the best board to use, MDF or plywood.
Cheers
Les
Less just to prewarn you -my Mrs bought me this
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/3635-100617175513.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=52628)
And I can positively tell you it was useless in the construction of my railroom / workshop
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/3635-100617175649.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=52629)
So if she offers -politely refuse and opt for a 1/2kg bag of nails from screwfix !!!!! :bounce: :laugh: :laugh3: :NGaugersRule:
First timer and Daffy :pmsign: check your in boxes please
Quote from: outofgauge on June 10, 2017, 05:58:18 PM
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/3635-100617175649.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=52629)
That's a very nice shed. :thumbsup:
Quote from: first timer on June 10, 2017, 03:11:00 PM
Thanks for all your help. Plywood it is 9mm or 12mm, what,s the best?
I've found that 9mm ply with decent 2x1 battening works well.
Remember to varnish both sides and edges to help seal and protect.
Dave G
Quote from: first timer on June 10, 2017, 03:11:00 PM
Thanks for all your help. Plywood it is 9mm or 12mm, what,s the best?
As previously mentioned, 9mm works for me for my portable exhibition layout baseboards, for the sides of the baseboard "box" and for the track bed.
I've seen 6mm used quite effectively for a light and airy design almost like an aircraft frame.
Hi all, I,m having a wooden shed to house my railway, is wood the best choice or should I plumb for plastic or metal?
Nothing wrong with a wooden shed provided it's well insulated, heated, carpeted, has professionally done electrics (no extension lead from the house please) and made secure against tea leaves.
There's no doubt summat I've missed but go for it, I say.
Mines osb board with a waterproof membrane on outside - slate battern - then upvc cladding over that - apart from the front - my one back down with the Mrs that's clad in Siberian larch . Metal roof is Sat on 1" polystyrene and that's Sat on osb board again ! Metal will condensate badly in winter if you don't insulate it - drip paradise ! Woods fine just use polystyrene from wicked - big sheet cheap - buy 5 they go cheaper again !
We seem to have drifted quite far from the original topic of 'Base Boards' albeit with a tenuous link :hmmm:
There's no separate section for 'Mancaves' so I can't think where best to move this to :dunce:
Newportnobby, Got the carpet (free on freecycle) and underlay, and the insulation roll, but until I can afford the electrics it will have to be an extention cable, but to start with it will only be for the control box and perhaps a one bulb light. I did,nt think the electrics would be so expencive ( up to £400 ). I run the mower and strimmer on an extention cable from the house so one control box should not be a problem ( do you think )
Les
Hi Les, I'm no expert electrician but it won't be just a control box. You have to have shed lighting too, and should not be running mains power through an extension for both lighting and power sockets/outlets.
As far as I know the power to a shed should be a seperate circuit from your house main consumer unit (fuse box), complete with fuse (circuit breaker) and be fully insulated, properly routed (underground is best) to feed a sub-unit (secondary fuse box) in the shed, from which separate lighting and power circuits can be run, and again this must be fitted with circuit breakers.
To do otherwise is not only outside the modern regulations and likely to not be best received by insurers if you ever need to claim when it all goes horribly wrong, but is very risky. That extension cable from the house, if you are running a mower etc, is likely to be 13 amp rated - way too high for safety with lighting, let alone your valuable model layout.
£400 sounds a lot, but it is what I would spend in the circumstances - the quote two years ago for my shed to be wired was £600, but I only use it for storage and stuff, so I passed. My layout room - the good lady still insists on calling it "the dining room" - is in the house.
Sorry to sound preachy, not my intent, and plenty of folks run stuff in sheds on extension leads, including me, but only on a very occasional basis with a circuit breaker fitted for safety at the house socket, and never when it's raining or humidity is high. Sheds can be damp places, and damp and electrics don't mix.
As NPN said, do it proper. It will pay dividends in the long run and also protect your investment - layouts and rolling stock don't come cheap.
I'm the last person to advise you on electrics, Les, believe me!
I'm in agreement with Mike (Daffy) in that it really is a job which needs doing correctly to protect both you and your surroundings. My next door neighbour has a cable running from his leccy fusebox on the wall outside up the wall and then carried on some wire across to his garage. :goggleeyes: I'm sure 'elf 'n' safety would have a conniption fit. A couple of years ago I was quoted over £600 to run armoured cabling out to my shed so gave it a swerve completely.
Thanks guys, well that's the shed idea gone,not working theres no way I can afford to put electrics in, good job I hav,nt bought the shed yet, only have a small 1 bed bungalow so no where to work on it or run it. Anyone want to buy a load of N gauge?
I run my shed successfully off an extension which runs from an external RCD protected and waterproof socket. The extension cable is protected in conduit, which is buried alongside the path. It is entirely adequate for my purposes, because I know what I'm doing. My layout's not in there, so I've never had to heat it, and as long as I keep the current down it's fine.
So you can run the power to your shed via an extension lead, as long as you are mindful of what you are doing, and treat it as if it were another appliance, like a lawn mower. If you don't run a lawnmower in the rain, don't run the shed.
But, as with all advice you'll get on the internet, if it's something that can cause harm in any way, get the actual advice of an actual expert who is actually standing in front of you when they give it to you.
Quote from: first timer on June 13, 2017, 09:13:33 PM
Thanks guys, well that's the shed idea gone,not working theres no way I can afford to put electrics in, good job I hav,nt bought the shed yet, only have a small 1 bed bungalow so no where to work on it or run it. Anyone want to buy a load of N gauge?
The last thing I want to do is put you off but I do want you to be safe. Running the wire through thick hosepiping to a shed into a double socket protected with RCDs is something I did in Telford but did not run a layout or heating. It was purely for lights and power tools or lawn mower/strimmer.
How about fitting a decent batten to the bedroom wall and having a fold down layout on hinges over the bed?
What is the issue with electrics
If you are competent at electrical installation and understand the IET standard it can be done yourself. You do need to get it tested and signed off by a qualified electrician to comply with the law. That is it, although finding an electrician willing to do this is a challenge as they want charge their usual excessive rates for the full job and are generally not interested in testing and signing off other's work even at a premium fee for this task.
Basic 240v electrical installation in a shed is easier than wiring your layout. I wired my new garage and wife's studio myself with perfect compliance and test results and with neater finish than your average electrican
Quote from: newportnobby on June 13, 2017, 08:22:55 PM
I'm the last person to advise you on electrics, Les, believe me!
I'm in agreement with Mike (Daffy) in that it really is a job which needs doing correctly to protect both you and your surroundings. My next door neighbour has a cable running from his leccy fusebox on the wall outside up the wall and then carried on some wire across to his garage. :goggleeyes: I'm sure 'elf 'n' safety would have a conniption fit. A couple of years ago I was quoted over £600 to run armoured cabling out to my shed so gave it a swerve completely.
As long is it is the right kind of cable and not in a position likely to suffer damage, there is nothing wrong with running cables on the surface of walls or across gaps on a catenary wire.
In all likelihood, you neighbour won't have done it properly though - most people who were doing so would go for burying SWA cable instead, which is what I have done to feed both the shed and garage.
Baseboards, I prefer to have mine removeable to work on, therefore light weight EXTRUDED polystryrene framed in thin ply. They are mounted on cupboards and shelving units so I can use all the space beneath the layout. All the point motors etc will be on the front or back of the layout I've had enough of working with my hands in the air underneath.
Sheds, What ever type you need to improve security,
Metal sheds ( I've got 3) are built from the outside screwed onto a galvanised frame, which means you can get in from the outside with any phillips screwdriver ...But of course a tin shed needs lots of insulation AND a dampproofing. A sheet of plastic beneath the floor to keep it dry, then insulation / floorboarding inside that. Walls and ceiling need serious lining to prevent condensation. Shelves units layout have to be free standing the walls cannot take any extra weight. Tins sheds need to be bolted down until you get a lot of weight in there, they do blow away.
Plastic sheds, even though they have a plastic floor the floors are from panels so I'd still put a plastic sheet underneath, Insulation is nice, but may not be 100 % necessary as many are made from multi layer plastic, units have to be free standing But can be attached to the wall for stability. Security not good they are foten supplied with plastic hinges and brackets for the locks..
Wooden sheds, they range from thin panels you could put your shoe through, to thick walls a couple of inches thick, you gets what you pays for... insulating between the battons covering that with ply or more wood makes for a substatial improvement in wall security. Definately put a plastic membrane beneath the floor to stop rising damp.
You can use the battons as part of the supports for the railway, get good substantial hinges and locks for the door with concealed mountings, the cheap ones supplied are often crap...
In all three types of shed remember to insulate the windows, a second layer of glass or plastic make a substantial difference, remember to leave a couple of small holes at the bottem to allow the condensation to drain out. An internal shutter helps with security and keeping the heat in. I have both shutters and an extra layer of plastic.
Electrickery,
If your Shed is close to the house, and you have a RCD at the house end of the cable I see nothing wrong with using a extension cable. Make sure it is rated at 13 AMPs (some are 10A) and that you unwind it all, each time you use it. Using and extension cable through a duct is not recommended the cables are rated at their FREE AIR value. NOT in a duct or wound up.
Remember if you are in the Shed mid winter and you've got a 3kW Fan heater running, you've already used all of your 13 amps (13=3000W/230V). You have no spare capacity, for lighting, railway or soldering iron.
It is better to have a properly fitted mains supply as I have done, I have two 13 amp ring mains, 3 lighting circuits ina 63ft shed. ( SWMBO wants heat in her end of the shed and to boil a kettle!! ) But with 40 years in or around the electronics industry it is not a problem for me.
Currently Measuring a 100A shunt to an accuracy of 1 part in a million,( I'm waiting for it to finish warming up) hence I can type for a bit.
Thanks the Q what sort of charge to have mains fitted into a 8 x 6 shed ? 2 double sockets and a strip light and switch ( just roughly )
Sorry I have no idea as I did it myself and then got a mate to sign it off. He's on holiday at the moment and I go on holiday next week so I won't see him for a while to find out.
I can do all the work and have done the work commercially in the past but never got round to getting the bits of paper.
I'm actually in electronics not electrics, but have been the unqualified assitant who does much of the work, while between electronics jobs.
Rates do vary dramatically around the country, your best bet would be to phone a small electrical technician thats local. The big firms would not be interested or would charge a fortune.
Oh it's not just the cost of the wiring in the shed, it's getting the cable from the fuse box / Consumer unit out of the house across the garden to the shed.
If there is a trench to be dug for the cable then you could save a lot by doing the digging yourself ( you'd need to chat to the Electrician about depths etc)
Hi q, the distance from the main board in the house is just a footpath away (about 5 to 6 ft ) But I know a couple of local guys that work for themselves so I will get a no obligation quote from them. Thank you everyone for all your help. I will keep you posted.
HAPPY MODELING TO YOU ALL. (KEEP IT N GAUGE )
Los and lots of interesting comments here that have grown out of the one from the original instigator of the thread. Many of them have given me a good deal of satisfaction in making me realise, by accident or design, that I am very much on the right path with my own project. It started with a wooden shed that was in a state of semi-ruin but which had the advantage of electricity installed years ago by a qualified electrician who I knew from my workplace. I have, over the years, replaced both the floor and one long wall, erected a pitched roof over a pent roof so that I have a double ceiling, extended the shed so that I could remove double doors from one end, partly insulate the walls and have replaced the window(recently)with a scrounged double glazed unit. This is very much an "organic" rescue of a space in the garden which will now, I hope, be put to good use. I have even made allowance for a bumble bee nest in one rotted section of the original back wall :laugh3:. My approach to how to equip the interior has had a falllback position of creating a generic workshop which anyone could use for any purpose. That has been done with treated loft boards.However, I was delighted to read here all about the virtues of ply sheets as I quickly and coincidentally decided that I had to superimpose that solution over what I had already done. I am currently in the middle of putting that solution together, in the hope that I can somehow create a removable layout which can be stripped out at a later date
Cool 8)
There is a great satisfaction in building /rebuilding a shed to what you want rather than accepting a commercial solution. Especially if you can use salvaged Items.
My shed has 14 (if i've counted correctly) old sash units from the house. Two doors which came from our previous house, one of which was a sliding double glazed patio door and now is a swing open door on farm gate pivots! Then there is another door I've made for the purpose.
The layout will repose on top of many old chests of drawers, as well as shelving I've built.
I don't go for wasting the large amount of space under a layout, even in a big shed like mine there is never enough storage.
I think w,ve fell off the road somewhere, we were talking about electrics into a shed (other alternatives ) and most important the cost, if theres any budding electricions out there please get in touch.
Regards
Les H
Just an add on I cleaned all my track and loco and carridge wheels with IPA and WOW what a difference, all runs great.
IPA is great, just don't breath too much in as it's a health and fire hazard.
If you don't have slopes (or only small ones) on you layout then a soft graphite pencil rubbed along the track also helps. Don't do it with the power on, you'll short out the track..
It acts like as an electrical lubricant,
This is what I use.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/52/6067-160617101445.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=52747)
:bump:
The name of the thread is baseboards, folks. :thumbsup:
O K back to base boards, being fitted into my shed do I need to add a wooden frame to sit the boards on or can I just fit them onto a piece of 2 x 2 fixed against the shed wall and then add the legs I,m using 9mm ply.
Les H
9mm ply will still require lots of bracing, Les, so sorry but you need to create the necessary boards before fitment to battens and adding legs. There is no short cut and disaster could loom otherwise
Even if you've braced your baseboards I think its still a good idea to rest them on a frame so that you can remove them to work on them.
:beers:
Yep I thought that might be your answer and I,m more than prepared to do what you sugest and also stain the boards first. Would 12mm ply be any advantage ?
I think 9 mm is more than enough. 12 mm will be 33% heavier...
:beers:
Quote from: first timer on July 01, 2017, 04:18:56 PM
Yep I thought that might be your answer and I,m more than prepared to do what you sugest and also stain the boards first. Would 12mm ply be any advantage ?
Not in my opinion - just heavier.
I've always used 9mm ply, to form the sides of a box and only on top where the track will be, leaving the rest open to reduce weight and to allow for scenery below the track level.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/53/5885-010717162546.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=53090)
What is the best wood glue to use for the frames under the ply wood ?
Quote from: first timer on July 01, 2017, 05:04:01 PM
What is the best wood glue to use for the frames under the ply wood ?
Whatever PVA you can get hold of is fine. My personal favourite PVA is from Wickes - I find it a little "stickier" than some other brands.
The shed I,m having is overlap construction insulated with double bubble silver backed insulation. Do you all think this is O K (simple reason overlap is a bit cheaper than shiplap ).
Not a fan of sheds for this sort of thing (too much temperature variation), but if I were investing in a shed to house a layout not just a few garden tools, it would have to be proper shiplap for me. The cheap overlapping stuff warps and twists and creates gaps over time.
I'd agree. The shed sides need to be shiplap or some form of tongue and groove to keep the weather out. If I were adapting my own t&g sided shed I would line with insulation and then board on the inside, creating a sandwich. That way you have a firm interior surface to work against, attach things to, or just lean against watching the trains go by. It will be far more durable too.
Quote from: daffy on July 01, 2017, 06:05:37 PM
I'd agree. The shed sides need to be shiplap or some form of tongue and groove to keep the weather out. If I were adapting my own t&g sided shed I would line with insulation and then board on the inside, creating a sandwich. That way you have a firm interior surface to work against, attach things to, or just lean against watching the trains go by. It will be far more durable too.
Seconded.
Two things:-
You're probably gonna invest a fair amount in your layout and stock over time so you need to keep the elements at bay to protect your investment.
You wanna be dry, warm and cosy while
playing with operating your layout.
;) :beers:
Oh and don't forget you might need a heater and a fridge for your IPA...
:)
Is IPA the same as JOHN SMITHS
No but you have to have something that keeps your favourite tipple a suitable temperature.
:)
SWMBO wasn't impressed when she opened the first fridge fitted to the shed to find it entirely filled with Cider.....
The shed I have both the commercially built bit and my built bit is tongue and groove, For good insulation you need wall / insulation / interior cladding, don't forget the windows and roof.