So I have decided that building my Saint class loco using various parts from all over the place is just not cost-effective....for now...
My second choice was to buy some GWR locos from Union Mills (which would be my first from this manufacturer). I have emailed Colin (who is a very friendly and helpful guy!) and he says the GWR stuff will be likely to be available around mid-2019! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: So saving some pennies for them.
In the meantime, I have some pennies to spend now and I am thinking of getting a Hall class loco. My question is which Hall class loco is better, Farish vs Dapol's offerings???
I did a search of the forum but didn't find any comparison info :searchingsign: so I thought I would start my own thread! :helpneededsign:
Hope to hear from you all!
The Dapol Hall is much newer than the Farish version and far superior visually.
Quite simple really. If you want one that actually looks like a Hall then get a Dapol one.
Photo of Farish Hall http://www.benhamsonline.com/images/uploads/372-003.jpg (http://www.benhamsonline.com/images/uploads/372-003.jpg)
Photo of Dapol Hall https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/2S-010-001_1459726_Qty1_1.jpg (https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/2S-010-001_1459726_Qty1_1.jpg)
If only Dapol has managed to put the correct boiler on it, not one off a Manor.
Quote from: 5944 on February 12, 2019, 06:51:15 AM
If only Dapol has managed to put the correct boiler on it, not one off a Manor.
I wonder if this is just a Dapol bashing urban myth. Here is a photo of my Manor and Hall next to each other. To my untrained eye they ain't the same boiler.
My Hall is awaiting a little bit of weathering . I believe that, more than anything else helps to make a model more realistic.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/74/3123-120219081742.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=74075)
:hellosign: While the Dapol hall is the superior looking model, it does not perform as well as it looks. My GF Hall has been serviced by BR Lines and now runs well.
Ok, so maybe it isn't a Manor boiler, but it certainly looks very under nourished at the smokebox.
Quote from: Tonye on February 12, 2019, 08:34:01 AM
:hellosign: While the Dapol hall is the superior looking model, it does not perform as well as it looks. My GF Hall has been serviced by BR Lines and now runs well.
I think this is another Dapol bashing myth. I have 2 28xx as well as a Hall, Grange and Manor and all run very well indeed. Yes you have to be careful how you handle them and the wires connecting loco to tender need resoldering from time to time but they are all good smooth runners.
Quote from: 5944 on February 12, 2019, 09:11:47 AM
Ok, so maybe it isn't a Manor boiler, but it certainly looks very under nourished at the smokebox.
I don't have the equipment to measure things sufficiently accurately but it's interesting to note that the Hall boiler diameter is three inches bigger than a Manor - that's about half a millimetre in N gauge. I can't see a difference between the two but I probably shouldn't be able to see that level of difference. Maybe it should be bigger but it looks ok to me whereas the Farish one can't be seen as anything better than a rather crude model. Ok for its era but left way behind now. If old Farish was all there was I wouldn't be modelling in N gauge, in fact I didn't until Dapol came along and shuck things up.
Although I model transition era set loosely in Oxfordshire, strangely I've never got round to buying a Hall but, if I did, I would certainly get the Dapol one, even though I know it will whine something awful. Before I get accused of Dapol bashing I have 27 of their locos and only one does not whine noisily.
Well, one looks like a Hall and the other is lump of Mazac. The Farish Hall was never one of their better models and if memory serves dates back to almost the beginning of the Farish N Gauge range in the 70s. I cannot comment on how well the Dapol Hall runs but like with most locos there are "goodens" and "badens".
Paddy
What radius curves do you have? The Dapol Hall does not like tight curves.
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 12, 2019, 10:52:01 AMBefore I get accused of Dapol bashing I have 27 of their locos and only one does not whine noisily.
I'd be interested to know which one that is please.
I thought that Dapol were considering a loco motor drive system to replace the tender motor, but I've heard no more about it for quite some time.
Until then I will not buy any WR tender locos despite Dapol's attention to detail.
Quote from: ten0G on February 12, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
I thought that Dapol were considering a loco drive system to replace the tender drive, but I've heard no more about it for quite some time.
Until then I will not buy any WR tender locos despite Dapol's attention to detail.
:confused2:
Dapol have NEVER used a Tender Drive system. (they used a Loco-driven system via cardan-shaft from a Tender mounted motor which is a different thing!)
Farish used a true tender drive in many of the earlier Bachman era designs such as the Black 5, Jubilee etc, J39, B1, A1/A2, Standard 4...
Quote from: PLD on February 12, 2019, 05:58:29 PM
Quote from: ten0G on February 12, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
I thought that Dapol were considering a loco drive system to replace the tender drive, but I've heard no more about it for quite some time.
Until then I will not buy any WR tender locos despite Dapol's attention to detail.
:confused2:
Dapol have NEVER used a Tender Drive system. (they used a Loco-driven system via cardan-shaft from a Tender mounted motor which is a different thing!)
Farish used a true tender drive in many of the earlier Bachman era designs such as the Black 5, Jubilee etc, J39, B1, A1/A2, Standard 4...
Yes, thanks - I've edited the post. :-[
Hi
The Dapol Hall is much easier to convert to DCC than the Farish one. This may not be an issue for you. The Dapol Hall is DCC ready. The Farish one needs to be disassembled and a digi-kit (or similar) put in.
Neil
Quote from: ten0G on February 12, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 12, 2019, 10:52:01 AMBefore I get accused of Dapol bashing I have 27 of their locos and only one does not whine noisily.
I'd be interested to know which one that is please.
It's the A4, which a lot seemed to dislike
There is NO Dapol bashing here , just my experiences of their steam locomotives, take the B17, just awful runner , yes it runs slow but noisy . All my Dapol GWR steam locos run on my exhibition layout but are out performed by GF and UM. All my locos are well maintained .
Quite interested in getting one of the Dapol Grange's that is in their February offers. Do they have issues with tight curves as well?
Paddy
My Dapol Granges and other WR locos will all go around an 11ins radius. The weak spot on the Grange is the design of the 3500gall version tender - poor pick-up and insufficient weight meaning it's prone to vibration.
QuoteQuite interested in getting one of the Dapol Grange's that is in their February offers.
Sadly the Grange on offer is in BR livery, which doesn't help my GWR collection at all :'(
Thanks Longbow - so are they rather poor runners then?
Paddy
I would not draw too much from my limited experience. The three Granges with a 3500 gall tender I have owned have been disappointing, and others have commented on its design flaws. But my Manors and 38xx's with the same tender all work fine. The 4000gall tender design (Halls and some Granges) seems more reliable.
Quote from: longbow on February 13, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
My Dapol Granges and other WR locos will all go around an 11ins radius. The weak spot on the Grange is the design of the 3500gall version tender - poor pick-up and insufficient weight meaning it's prone to vibration.
So will they go around Peco R2 (10⅜") ? :worried:
I was actually considering Kato 9¾" radius as the minimum for some of my hidden sections. :doh:
Yes, HOLLERTON JUNCTION has R1 and R2 curves. :worried:
Paddy
I've got a good number of Dapol Manors and 2884's. I have one Hall and it's not good on tight curves. Sometimes it's fine, other days it stays in the box. I have one Grange and it's not my favourite.
The 3500 gal tender is the culprit for poor running - because of poor electrical pickup design. Whether that tender is on a Grange or a Manor. It needs weight and a bit more adjusting of pressure on the wheels than the Hall tender.
The 4000 gal Hall tender is the older design (solid wheels rather than spoked) but by far the better for pickup and running, whether on a Grange or a Hall.
I know as I have both :)
Honestly there is nothing wrong with the Dapol Hall.
PS I dont have tight curves, but I have the same radii issues some have complained about with the Dapol Britannia. That doesn't like curves either!
Bob
I've got 3 Dapol Halls on Claywell and they all run superbly providing you are careful in how you handle them. A weak point is the wires between loco and tender so if you get bad running suspect them first.
One thing I would say about any of the Dapol tender shaft drive locos is that on 3 of mine which initially ran badly and after much head scratching etc I found the answer was the coupling on the tender for the drive shaft was a little too far down the shaft and was fouling the front of the tender, a careful slide back down the shaft a tad sorted that out and they've been perfect ever since.
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 12, 2019, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: ten0G on February 12, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
I'd be interested to know which one that is please.
It's the A4, which a lot seemed to dislike
Thanks, but I think it would be hard to justify an A4 in west of Carmarthen, even under Rule 1! Lovely looking loco, though.
Do you think the noise is reduced solely by the high-sided tender design, or that there's more to it than that?
Quote from: ten0G on February 18, 2019, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 12, 2019, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: ten0G on February 12, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
I'd be interested to know which one that is please.
It's the A4, which a lot seemed to dislike
Thanks, but I think it would be hard to justify an A4 in west of Carmarthen, even under Rule 1! Lovely looking loco, though.
Do you think the noise is reduced solely by the high-sided tender design, or that there's more to it than that?
You can always quote the good old 'footie special' but I think even that would be stretching things a little!
The A4 was noisy when I got it but has quietened down a lot as opposed to my other Dapol offerings. They do seem to take an inordinate period of running in, though.
Okay, thanks to all the invaluable input I took the plunge and bought a Dapol 'Priory Hall' from Osborne's. It arrived on Thursday and being a big kid, I immediately got the new toy out of the box, read the instructions, oiled as directed, and put it to work on my Kato M1 test track. The running was very good to begin with, and the loco performs well at low speed. However, when I am running it a bit faster (as an express train would) I have noticed that at time the loco lurches as if something is holding in back. It keeps going around but it isn't a very fluid movement at times at higher speed. I tried running the loco in reverse at the same speed and didn't notice this problem. So my question for all of you is did I get a bit of a dud with this purchase or could be something else???? :helpneededsign:
I will say one thing, the Dapol Hall loco is very well done, with great detail. The slight problem on the movement is just bugging me.
Hope to hear some input on this issue.
First question: is it the same place on the track each time (potentially indicating a track issue) or the same formation each time - e.g. always a left hand curve, or always at track joins (potentially indicating something on the loco that catches when manipulated in a particular way such as obstructing the drive shaft or hanging below the loco)
The slow vs fast running difference could be that any hesitation is magnified and more obvious visibly at higher speed...
The M1 set is new and a simple loop circuit. The new Hall just lurches a bit at higher speeds, and can't figure out why. I have run other locos on the same track and no problems at all. The new Hall has good pick-up at low speed and looks great but the problem at higher speeds does bug!
:helpneededsign: :helpneededsign: :helpneededsign: :helpneededsign: :helpneededsign: :helpneededsign: :helpneededsign: :helpneededsign:
If you dont like it and it is within warranty send it back.
I have had Granges which dont run that well, and its been sorted by a replacement.
Bob
Agreed. Why keep something not fit for purpose?
Quote from: Doc Pye on February 23, 2019, 01:27:53 AM
..
when I am running it a bit faster (as an express train would) I have noticed that at time the loco lurches as if something is holding in back. It keeps going around but it isn't a very fluid movement at times at higher speed. I tried running the loco in reverse at the same speed and didn't notice this problem.
...
I can't remember whether the Dapol Hall has any packing pieces between loco and tender(?). I seem to recall it does. Worth double checking that there's nothing fouling the cardan shaft. If you can't find any obvious mech problem there, I'd return it as others have suggested.
Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated. It isn't that little piece of plastic that Dapol puts in between the tender and loco, as I took that out. I just didn't want to go through the hassle of returning it if there was an easy fix or something that I was doing wrong. I usually only return things when I have exhausted other options, as I know from running a business that returns don't help things. That said, if you get it wrong, it should be fixed.
So looks like my beautiful shiny new Hall is going back to Osbornes...or do you send it directly to Dapol? :confused2:
Osbornes are the folk to take it back.
good luck with the next one.
Bob
Probably is something mechanical, but what controller are you running it on? Does it include "feedback" or "load compensation"? If so turn that off if you can. Some feedback circuits aren't well tuned for modern motors and can over-compensate causing jerky running.
As I stated above, I am running it on my Kato M1 test track, which runs all my other locos really smoothly. I also thought it was some sort of pick-up issue, but if that were the case I would have problems on my other locos, which isn't the case. Hence, I am figuring there is a problem with my new Hall... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
One thing to check with Dapol shaft drive locos is the shaft socket on the tender side. I've had 2 Dapol locos, a Hall and a Grange than ran a bit rough, especially in one direction. In both case the collar that accepts the drive shaft on the tender was binding slightly, it slides along the motor shaft and on both it was a little too tight against the tender. A very careful adjustment by moving the collar a nats away from the tender moulding sorted them out. You can't move it too far otherwise the drive shaft is then too long.
Thanks Caz for the advice. So is this just a case of sliding the piece more towards the tender or the loco? How much movement? I don't want to mess this up and void the warranty but if it is an easy fix I am game.
FYI, I really liked your Farish Diesel Railcar conversion piece...great stuff, as I have to fix mine that won't run!
Move it slightly away from the tender body, when the shaft spins in one direction it's ok, but in the other it can foul the tender body. I "think" I just used a small screw driver or craft knife to ease it away from the tender body.
Sadly I have given up on getting my new Prior Hall from Osborne's to work properly, as despite following the great advice offered here, it still shutters going forward. In fact, the problem appears to be getting worse...or perhaps I am just noticing it more. :'( :'( :'( :'( In any event, I contacted Osborne's today about the return process, which I hope won't be painful.
On another front, on EvilBay recently I purchased two new GWR engines, a Peco Collett's Goods and another Dapol Hall, 'Mottram Hall'. Now my luck with new purchases is clearly not doing well, as the Peco loco isn't running well at all. Actually, it isn't running much at all, which is sad. This is my second one of these and my previous one works fine and is a great little loco. So can anyone suggest any links/guidance on how to service this one. I am hoping it might be something minor, as I really don't want to go the return route with this one as it is a really nice loco (the exterior part that is, as the motor isn't working well at present :'( ).
As for my new Dapol 'Mottram Hall', this looks nice and runs okay. It clearly needs a clean/service. So again, can anyone suggest links/guidance on how to service this one.
I should warn everyone that I am a completely 'noobie' when it comes to cleaning/servicing locos, so please keep your advice for simply minded folk like me....pretty please! :helpneededsign:
Hope those with knowledge out there can offer guidance. :)
Quote from: Doc Pye on March 06, 2019, 05:06:20 PM
On another front, on EvilBay recently I purchased two new GWR engines, a Peco Dean's Goods and another Dapol Hall, 'Mottram Hall'.
I can't help with the servicing side but Peco have not made a Dean goods. Are you referring to the Union Mills Dean goods or to the Peco Collett 22xx?
Sorry, meant Collett Goods...all corrected now. Long day.