ok....
every piece of track is wired to the bus wires...
i've cleaned all the track with ipa on a cloth
i've cleaned the wheels with ipa on a cloth
my locos are not ancient ones but all new bachmann or dapol ones...
yet still i can't get slow running into my depot yard over a few points...
and to make matters worse i still get short circuits with my dmu and class 73, even though i have checked the back to backs using a gauge...
after seeing the excellent n gauge yesterday at TINGS i'm now back to reality with my never ending battle....
any ideas?
tim
What kind of points are you using? Insulfrog or electrofrog? Here are some of my links for point wiring, with animated diagrams.
http://www.009.cd2.com/members/how_to/wiring.htm
http://www.proto87.com/turnout-wiring-for-DCC.html
hi
ta for the links
i use electrofrogs, they are all just wired from the toe ends. i know i should have wired the frogs seperately and made the modifications to the points, but that all seemed too complicated...
the points are not painted and have been very well cleaned...
tim
tim
Have you tried cleaning the backs f the wheels and pick ups?
Got to say I find the class 04 my most frustrating loco.Same as you,everything clean and it still stalls all over the place.I am suspecting it does not have enough weight because if I balance a pair of metal tweezers on the roof it runs perfectly!
Steve.
Not that this will solve your problem but I know a lot of model railway fans that use only diesel locos because they run better over points.
Quote from: Zebra on September 11, 2011, 11:13:06 PM
Have you tried cleaning the backs f the wheels and pick ups?
Got to say I find the class 04 my most frustrating loco.Same as you,everything clean and it still stalls all over the place.I am suspecting it does not have enough weight because if I balance a pair of metal tweezers on the roof it runs perfectly!
Steve.
Guess what? One of my old ABC loco books shows an 04 at Finsbury Park - and there's a pair of tweezers on the roof :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: Zebra on September 11, 2011, 11:13:06 PM
Have you tried cleaning the backs f the wheels and pick ups?
Got to say I find the class 04 my most frustrating loco.Same as you,everything clean and it still stalls all over the place.I am suspecting it does not have enough weight because if I balance a pair of metal tweezers on the roof it runs perfectly!
Steve.
Check all the pickups are making good contact with the wheel backs and are clean - this is a common issue with the 04, but once rectified it should be one of the star performers for slow speed and pickup.
Regards,
Alan
Quote from: bluedepot on September 11, 2011, 06:48:24 PM
and to make matters worse i still get short circuits with my dmu and class 73, even though i have checked the back to backs using a gauge...
In specific locations? If so then the trackwork wants checking that none of the point blades are bent such that they can touch the backs of the wheels passing - this can happen.
Otherwise you need to check that the track is flat and laid well, has no drops in voltage (common around the point blades - really the best thing is to have these electrically switched also). Check each loco is picking up from all the wheels it should - if not investigate individually if the pickup in question is not making perfect contact or is being hindered by dirt.
Slow speed running is entirely possible in a reliable manner in N, both steam and diesel, and anyone telling you otherwise is doing something wrong!!
Best Regards,
Alan
Quote from: bluedepot on September 11, 2011, 10:58:24 PM
i know i should have wired the frogs seperately and made the modifications to the points, but that all seemed too complicated...
No modification is required. Simply wire from the controller (or toe end of the point if in a tree of turnouts) through the electrical switch (eg accessory switch on point motor) and use a connection soldered to the underside of one (or both for redundancy) of the rail joiners on the frog to make the frog connection. Point remains unmodified and this also makes it easier to remove in future if it fails, as compared to having unsightly dropper wires soldered to the sides etc.
There is absolutely no need to make any cuts etc in rails around the frog - I've seen this mentioned and demonstrated on one of the lists - it's a good way to add complexity and risk destroying the turnout - it is not required and also cause more bumps and running problems - it's a pointless thing to do IMHO.
Best Regards,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 12, 2011, 11:03:26 AM
Check all the pickups are making good contact with the wheel backs and are clean - this is a common issue with the 04, but once rectified it should be one of the star performers for slow speed and pickup.
I can only agree with this :thumbsup:
My 04 was terrible to start with, stalling all the time and needing a giant finger to prod it into action again!! When I checked the pickups I found that only 2 out of the 6 tags was actually touching the back of the wheels - quick clean and adjustment later and all six are now in contact with the wheels and never had a problem since ;)
Paul
just drifting along with this thread, I'd be interested to know if any of you lot have added additional weight to the Farish 04 or 03? I have very sharp curves on the headshunt lengths on our layout, and the 04, while performing admirably on the straight, sits and whirls its wheels on the sharper bits when I'm asking it to pull longer 4 wheel wagons. (admittedly these are spanish wagons and thus oh so non prototype, but heigh ho!)
As noted somewhere above, a bit of extra weight works wonders, but where would you squeeze that in to be invisible? (its a DC layout, so no decoders to worry about)
Although perhaps the track cleaning section suits this better, I can note here that by far the biggest improvement to running on our layout has been the careful application of a very powerful Dyson suction hose to remove all stray hairs and grit etc. Sadly its also removed at least one of the horse riders and a small cow, and these antics will have to stop no doubt once we have some ballast down, but meantime the Dyson is the bees knees!
Quote from: mr magnolia on January 21, 2012, 12:36:31 AM
just drifting along with this thread, I'd be interested to know if any of you lot have added additional weight to the Farish 04 or 03? I have very sharp curves on the headshunt lengths on our layout, and the 04, while performing admirably on the straight, sits and whirls its wheels on the sharper bits when I'm asking it to pull longer 4 wheel wagons. (admittedly these are spanish wagons and thus oh so non prototype, but heigh ho!)
As noted somewhere above, a bit of extra weight works wonders, but where would you squeeze that in to be invisible? (its a DC layout, so no decoders to worry about)
Although perhaps the track cleaning section suits this better, I can note here that by far the biggest improvement to running on our layout has been the careful application of a very powerful Dyson suction hose to remove all stray hairs and grit etc. Sadly its also removed at least one of the horse riders and a small cow, and these antics will have to stop no doubt once we have some ballast down, but meantime the Dyson is the bees knees!
couple of thoughts. if the frigs are not fed seperately, you must ensure that the point blade makes good clean contact with the appropriate running rail.
when hoovering, use some tights ovr the end of the hoover so that you can inspect the spoils before discatding
For additional weight on models try getting hold of lead shot (as in shotgun) or even steel ball bearings will work. In either case PVA or suprglue will gold them
I spent a very long time a few days ago cleaning my points with IPA and a cocktail stick making sure the blades etc were clean and straight my new farish hall ran fine over them and my 04 i was happy as a pig.
A day or two later on running the Hall over my sidings slowly it stopped! touching the switch slightly had no effect so pushing the blade with the cocktail stick softly, started her moving again the 04 exactly the same trouble it is very frustrating.
I do admit since ballasting etc. the switches themselves don't emmit the same loud click as they did new as i suspect maybe some PVA crept under but they do still switch fully as i can get them working.
Does DCC solve any of theses problems as i believe it runs a constant 14v so equivalant to full tilt on a DC controller as opposed to trying to get 3v or so to the loco?
Or are my loco's shorting as all my turnouts are electrofrog?
Dave
I have always found adding a fishing sinker inside rolling stock helps with trains running smooth and staying on track.
Dcc will not solve the problem, making a positive electrical connection indepedantof the point blades will solve point contact. Having said that my set up is exactly as you describe, because i did not use the advice before laying and ballasting the track.
Quote from: polo2k on January 21, 2012, 01:16:37 AM
For additional weight on models try getting hold of lead shot (as in shotgun) or even steel ball bearings will work. In either case PVA or suprglue will gold them
I seem to remember that there has been some correspondence previously both in magazines and on forums about PVA reacting with lead shot over a period of time causing damage?
PVA and lead shot expands, certain people who filled locos with lead shot and PVA got nasty surprises when they ruptured later.
Lead is best avoided for other reasons anyway (and if you do use lead its really important you make sure anyone buying it 2nd hand on ebay etc knows it contains lead). It's also quite hard to find sometimes since it got banned for fishing weights.
I mostly use scrap steel or mazak bits from things like dead loco chassis and peco wagon chassis. One or two things have lead in them because there isn't enough room for anything else (M7 being a notable one) but in lumps so the worst it'll do is fall off.
Got my lead shot from a diving supplies shop :)
To add weight to the HST dummy car I made up a little box out of card, filled it with shot then dripped superglue over it to bond it. Easily removable for servicing, etc without any mess ;)
Paul
You can get lead on a roll that is for window stained glass glazing strips. It's available from DIY and hobby stores, can be cut with scissors and has a self adhesive side (with peel off paper) so you can built up several layers in to a suitable block. It's just the right size to fit in N gauge coaches and in the underframe compartment on Mk3 coaches.
H.
Although I use lead as weights in my rolling stock I do not use glue at all.
Thankfully lead sinkers have not been banned in Oz so what I do is hammer a sinker of suitable weight and size flat, cut it to size with an old pair of scissors and hold it in place with Blu-tack, easily removable but holds well enough not to work loose.
I have a sheet of lead that I intend to use to weigh my 04 down, but I've got to find a place to hide it!
I intend in due course to add weight to the wagons and coaches as per the NMRA guidelines
Quote from: mr magnolia on January 22, 2012, 11:07:47 PM
I have a sheet of lead that I intend to use to weigh my 04 down, but I've got to find a place to hide it!
I intend in due course to add weight to the wagons and coaches as per the NMRA guidelines
Not really much you can do there - only space is the cab and adding weight to the cab will reduce adhesion as right now its properly balanced.
Alan
Quote from: mr magnolia on January 22, 2012, 11:07:47 PM
I intend in due course to add weight to the wagons and coaches as per the NMRA guidelines
Why?
Unless you actually have running problems there really should be no need, and if you are running problems the first place to look is the track I'd have thought.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 23, 2012, 08:52:49 AM
Unless you actually have running problems there really should be no need, and if you are running problems the first place to look is the track I'd have thought.
Cheers,
Alan
Got to agree with Alan here, if the stock runs fine on normal straight or curved track, but only stalls on the pointwork, then I would be looking at the pointwork.
A few things to look at, that I look at first are:
1. Is the point laid flat??
2. On the bottom of the point blades is a small lug, that slips under the outer rails, give that a tweak. Not too much as it is easily broken.
3. Clean the inner surfaces of the outer rails, and the surfaces of the blades where they contact the outer rails (but you've said you've done that)
4. Very, very gently, tweak the blades towards the outer rails with a pair of pliers. It doesn't take much tweaking to do this, just gently grip the blade rails with a pair of pliers and bend towards the outer rails, as I said it doesn't take much pressure to do this.
If after that lot you're still having problems, then I would be looking at which locos stall and exactly where they stall, they could be lifting slightly on the check rails, run a file between the check rail and outer rail.
Something else I've jujst thought of, if you've ballasted there might be a single grain of baalst between the check rail and outer rail thats lifting the loco slightly, running the file through as above, might be enough to clear it.
Anyway, good luck with that lot. If you're still having problems, then come back to us, someone else might come up with another possible answer.
Regards
Neal.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 23, 2012, 08:52:49 AM
Quote from: mr magnolia on January 22, 2012, 11:07:47 PM
I intend in due course to add weight to the wagons and coaches as per the NMRA guidelines
Why?
Unless you actually have running problems there really should be no need, and if you are running problems the first place to look is the track I'd have thought.
Cheers,
Alan
Oh just because I think that weighted wagons look better when they are running. Its only weight in the little loco that I'm thinking will improve power pick up.
Quote from: bluedepot on September 11, 2011, 06:48:24 PM
ok....
yet still i can't get slow running into my depot yard over a few points...
and to make matters worse i still get short circuits with my dmu and class 73, even though i have checked the back to backs using a gauge...
any ideas?
tim
Hi Tim,
Dunno if what I've found is any of your problem.
On my points which are Insulfrog,whether the Electrofrog are any different I don't know.I'm having problems with very slow running of my Dapol Class 26 when it comes to the part of the frog where it branches into two rails and they are separated with a very thin spacer at the point.
At normal speeds there's no problem,but when creeping over the points the bogey wheels momentarily short across both rails and the loco stops.
Remedies I've tried at the moment are easing the rails apart slightly and inserting a scrap of thin paper between the rail and the plastic spacer,painting both rails at the join for 3-4mm with permanent marker,both methods have worked about 90% of the time.
My next attempt will be to wrap a small piece of masking tape or insulation tape over the top of both rails.
Allan
Check the gauging on the wheels - this shouldn't happen unless one of the axles is way out of gauge
Thanks Alan,I'll check that.
Not really sure why being out on the back to back measurement should do it,but I'll check anyway.
Allan
Some months back I discovered
http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DLBD-38 (http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DLBD-38)
and have used it sucsessfully ever sinse. The 'shot' is minute and easily held in place by a drop of superglue
Quote from: Bikeracer on January 29, 2012, 08:25:21 AM
Not really sure why being out on the back to back measurement should do it,but I'll check anyway.
If the back to back is too narrow then if for example the point is set to straight ahead, the inside of the flanges could touch both the stock rail and the point blade for the diverging route, hence causing a short.
Also if its way too wide and especially if there is any twist on the point it'll short on the frog itself with the overwide wheel bridging the two frog rails together.
Seeing where it shorts and which end shorts can be most informative.
Quote from: Dr Al on September 12, 2011, 11:13:22 AM
No modification is required. Simply wire from the controller (or toe end of the point if in a tree of turnouts) through the electrical switch (eg accessory switch on point motor) and use a connection soldered to the underside of one (or both for redundancy) of the rail joiners on the frog to make the frog connection. Point remains unmodified and this also makes it easier to remove in future if it fails, as compared to having unsightly dropper wires soldered to the sides etc.
There is absolutely no need to make any cuts etc in rails around the frog - I've seen this mentioned and demonstrated on one of the lists - it's a good way to add complexity and risk destroying the turnout - it is not required and also cause more bumps and running problems - it's a pointless thing to do IMHO.
Best Regards,
Alan
Completly agree with Al on this one. Although I have not really had any issues with electorfrog points straight from the box, the only mod needed is as above to ensure power to the frog. Easy to do and does the job every time.
Cudders