Goods Train Formations - General Discussion

[Bealman]

They don't like it up em, Captain!

[Chris Morris]

All of my freight trains are going from somewhere to somewhere else for a reason. I find that in itself makes the passing train more interesting. I like to make up trains that are similar to photos in books. I particularly enjoy watching a long freight train run into the loop, get overtaken by an express and then slowly continue.

 find that longer freight trains need to be driven properly rather than just run. My freight trains rarely give me any grief in terms of derailments. If wagons occasionally uncouple I put a minute blob of black "blue tack" on them and the problem goes away. This has fixed the Revolution tankers problem.

When running long freights I don't think anyone notices the details on the wagons. Nobody at an exhibition has ever commented on how great the Revolution tank wagons are. Likewise I would struggle to spot the cheaper Peco vans scattered amongst the various Farish vans in my van train. I think the important thing for a van train is to have as many different ones as you can find. This is of course in terms of van styles not liveries.

[joe cassidy]

Do you not have a Ginsters cornish pasty van Chris ? 

[Platy767]

I think the important thing for a van train is to have as many different ones as you can find. This is of course in terms of van styles not liveries.

100% agree, particularly with a small number of wagons. I don't see why a limited number of wagons couldn't be all different types. I mean, even in early BR days there were still grouping and pre-grouping stock in traffic.

Mark

[class8mikado]

i Think i need to have a word with myself;
i see a wagon / coach/ LOco, i like it i buy it, it becomes a train
so i now have
 A full train of Mk1's all with different e region numbers (plus an A4
a Full train odf Dapol gresleys all with different e region numbers (Plus an A1
Plus enough left over for a 5 coach stopper of Thompsons ( plus a B17
a suburban rake plus a standard 3 tank
a Parcels rake plus a B1
a Perishables/ fast freight PLUS AN a3
a mostly vans fully fitted plus a 9f
a Rake of Hoppers plus a j39
a rake of ex p/os plus 16t minerals plus a wd
a rake of Tankers  plus a J50
Assorted Loco depot wagons ( coal/ sand) PLUS A j94
Assorted P/way vehicles plus an Ivatt 2
Thomas tte plus trains x 2
 A rake of Minitrix christmas special edition wagons with a German loco
 A collection of over a hundred attractive/ collectable p/o wagons
 

I do keep thinking about a layout, honest

[03piggs]

Hi guys. 

Just stumbled across this topic, and this is an interesting topic.

I have done a reasonable about of research into this subject by looking into Working Timetables and other Railway documents, such as Freight Train Load Books. So for those who dont know, heres a little ramble into both of these... (Sorry. This may get detailed and long  )

Working Timetables
Working Timetables (WTT) would list the amount of services they would think could handle the amount of traffic in the given area. These documents also sometimes contained Notes for specific freight services (though these did vary from region to region and then also depended on the time the WTT was from) that contained special information (eg; to convey an extra Brake Van to x location or to pick up loaded wagons only; etc)

These could also have marshaling instructions, which would list the formation of the train by destination of the wagons. Depending on the type of freight train, these could be anything from detailed to vague. Here are a couple of examples:

07.18pm Norwich Thorpe-Spitalfields Class D (Worked by Stratford Britannia to Temple Mills)
Formation:-Engine-Bishopsgate(fitted)-Cattle for via ELL(fitted)-Temple Mills(unfitted)-Spitalfields and Bishopsgate (unfitted)-Brake.

02.35am Temple Mills-Hertford East Class H
Formation:-Engine-stations Roydon and Sawbridgeworth inclusive (to be worked on 6.12am Broxbourne to Bishop's Stortford)-Rye House-Broxbourne-St Margaret's and Buntingford Branch-Ware-Hertford-Brake. To work from Broxbourne milk and fish off 11.15pm Pcls ex Peterboro' East. When load from St. Margaret's exceeds 25 wagons, St Margaret's signalman to confer with Hertford East signalman before allowing train to proceed.
(This last Note is a good example of how long these notes could be) (These are from Winter 1952 WTTs that I own)

These notes where to help staff with shunting at Marshaling Yards and the local Station Yards. The idea was to get the job done in as few moves as possible, so the traffic wasn't delayed as long as possible. This would of been important, as a Pick Up Goods stopping at a local station would (generally) block the line to other traffic, unless the Goods Yard was able to contain the whole train.

These notes can help us as modelers to make our trains more realistic, not only when running, but also when shunting, as the formation (with sections in the freight) would still need to be kept for stations further down the line.

This also makes things interesting for those who model a junction station or have a small Marshaling Yard. Attached is a copy of a PDF I made from a WTT I own of Park Yard (This was a Yard in Tottenham. If you google Northumberland Park station, the Yard was located where the LUL Victoria Line Depot is now) What is of interest is notes 14; 16 & 17 on Page 4, as these show notes for a few of the services that terminated at this Yard. These where to enable wagons to be connected with Faster freights that left the Yard for Whitemoor and Niddrie. These wouldn't of just have wagons for these services on them, but would need to shunted into the right order/position so that the train would be ready (if the train started in the Yard) or be ready for the train so that could be delt with in the aloted time. (Normally this process would have involved the Yard Pilot and Train Engine working together and attaching/detaching in tandom)

Freight Train Loads Book 
Another type of Document that worked alongside the WTT, but was more of a 'Rule Book' for freight trains. This contained a number of sections, some of which was more general, but other parts were more specific for the area in question. (Each Line/Area had its own book).

The First parts to each book where more general information regarding freight trains. These were rules regarding what kind of wagons could be in the same train (explosives & oil tanks were a no no) and then how these loads should be marshaled in a train (eg; the middle or 2 wagons from engine & brake). It also discussed what the standard messurement of a wagon was in length (a 16t BR Open) and then how you should judge these against that standard (eg: a bogie bolster would be longer that the standard so would be treated as 3 wagons, even though it was 1 wagon! ) More on this in a minute...

There is also a description of each type of freight train and how these trains should be formed, what speed they could run at and what wagons can be in them. This was to with the brakes on the wagons (fitted/unfitted) but also to do with the wagons construction (oil or grease axle boxes) An example of this would be a Class D freight train: This had to have 1 3rd of the train connected to the train brake and could travel at an average of 40mph. So this train could include unfitted wagons at the rear of the train, but these needed to have oil axle boxes.

This is followed by a section that lists all the lines in the area and gives 2 pieces of information:
1) The max length of wagons allowed on the route (This was governed mainly by Block sections)
2) The weight limit allowed on the route (This was between 1-9, with 1 being the steepest)

The next part of each book would list the number of wagons each engine type could pull based on weight. (This was a basic formula based of 1 loaded coal wagon. So 1 coal wagon = 1.75 goods wagons = 2 empty wagons) This used the (then) standard BR (ex-LMS) power classification of each loco. (eg an Ivatt 2MT) This was in the form of a Table that had the locos down 1 side and the route numbers on the other.

The way this would work is something like this:   (Here comes the math bit.. )

So we have an N7 tank. This was a 3MT, so on a Route that was a no 1 it could pull 16 coal wagons but on a no 9 route it could pull 40. But if the line had a length limit of 25, then it could only pull 25 coal wagons regardless of what the weight limit was (Unless it was a route no 1) Hope you get the idea from this and that this actually makes sense!

How would this work for us modelers? Well the first part would make them look more realistic but the section regarding length and load limits probably isn't practical unless you have the length where you would be able to notice the difference.

Hope you found this interesting and that you are still reading up to this point, though i did say this would be a long one. 

Stu

[martyn]

Thanks very much for this, Stu.

It's a subject on which a short series rather like the 'Beginners guide to steam locos' would make interesting reading.

I'm aware of some of this, but thanks for the actual examples given.

Wasn't another restriction in length dependent upon the length of refuge sidings available on a given route?

Thanks again.

Martyn

[03piggs]

Thanks very much for this, Stu.

It's a subject on which a short series rather like the 'Beginners guide to steam locos' would make interesting reading.

I'm aware of some of this, but thanks for the actual examples given.

Wasn't another restriction in length dependent upon the length of refuge sidings available on a given route?

Thanks again.

Martyn

Thanks @martyn!

The 'Beginners guide to Freight Trains' series does sound like a good idea. Think I might leave it until I I've sorted the 3rd Version of my Magazine out.

Loop length is an interesting one. The loops/refuge sidings are listed in the documents, but they do have a length in a number of wagons against them. Some even had calling on signals on the signal that lead into the loop, so more than one train could be put into the same line.

I've not seen anything that shows that train length was restricted by loops/refuge sidings, but the fact that its listed would indicate it was more of a regulatory issue. So this would be to do with Control making sure that a freight would fit in the siding, especially if the freight was being 'looped' as it was going to get in the way of a faster train coming up behind it.

Stu

[Foxhound]

The above trains are good for the 1950s and 1960s but when running my 1980s stock the freight trains are quite different.

I have a short "general" freight train. These wagons would probably be heading for the naval dockyards at Plymouth.

I found it harder to find good freight workings for the West Country in this period. I do know that the old clay wagons were replaced by CDA wagons during this time and this train represents new CDAs being taken from Exeter to Cornwall by non other than William Cookworthy.

Effectively the return working of the above, the old "clayhoods" being taken from Cornwall for scrapping. This fine photo is courtesy of Chris Nevard/Model Rail

@Chris Morris - These pictures are  my teens, as I'm sure I have said before! Your general freight train might well be heading for RNAD Ernesettle (Bull Point having closed and been lifted by the early 80s), to this day there's still a path for an armaments working in the WTT. I would love to know if a 33 ever made it down the branch on that working, I have to say!

CDAs hung around for a very long time, even seeing use behind 67s and 66s. A rake is preserved at Bodmin Railway, a good foil for their excellent rake of hoods.

The excellent silver bullets are possibly your missing link to the JIAs, they run well with a Transrail 60.

[Jim Martin]

I found it harder to find good freight workings for the West Country in this period.

There's a forum member called "Tim H", who posted here exactly twice, both times in September 2015. From the subject of those posts (attending a gig in Leamington after going to TINGS), my guess is that it's a gentleman called Tim Hall, whose personal website is still available and contains a page of Cornish Speedlink formations from 1986 onwards at http://www.kalyr.co.uk/railways/CornwallSpeedlinks.html. You might find some interesting ideas there.

Jim

[Dancess]

This makes interesting reading.

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/

[Foxhound]

I found it harder to find good freight workings for the West Country in this period.

There's a forum member called "Tim H", who posted here exactly twice, both times in September 2015. From the subject of those posts (attending a gig in Leamington after going to TINGS), my guess is that it's a gentleman called Tim Hall, whose personal website is still available and contains a page of Cornish Speedlink formations from 1986 onwards at http://www.kalyr.co.uk/railways/CornwallSpeedlinks.html. You might find some interesting ideas there.

Jim

The link no longer appears to work, sadly.

[Jim Martin]

I found it harder to find good freight workings for the West Country in this period.

There's a forum member called "Tim H", who posted here exactly twice, both times in September 2015. From the subject of those posts (attending a gig in Leamington after going to TINGS), my guess is that it's a gentleman called Tim Hall, whose personal website is still available and contains a page of Cornish Speedlink formations from 1986 onwards at http://www.kalyr.co.uk/railways/CornwallSpeedlinks.html. You might find some interesting ideas there.

Jim

The link no longer appears to work, sadly.

That's odd, because it works for me on my phone (Chrome on Android) and my work laptop (Chrome on Windows 10 or 11)

[5213 65J]

I found it harder to find good freight workings for the West Country in this period.

There's a forum member called "Tim H", who posted here exactly twice, both times in September 2015. From the subject of those posts (attending a gig in Leamington after going to TINGS), my guess is that it's a gentleman called Tim Hall, whose personal website is still available and contains a page of Cornish Speedlink formations from 1986 onwards at http://www.kalyr.co.uk/railways/CornwallSpeedlinks.html. You might find some interesting ideas there.

Jim

The link no longer appears to work, sadly.

http://www.kalyr.co.uk/railways/CornwallSpeedlinks.html

It's working ok for me and most interesting.

[Newportnobby]

There is a warning the site is not secure but it can be opened