From September 2019, and courtesy of the EU, when you want to make an online purchase your card provider will require additional proof of who you are. This is to help to combat online fraud which by the way is the banks responsibility.
To provide proof a 6 digit code will be sent to your mobile phone which you then put into the payment screen on your computer and your transaction is complete.
But what happens if:
You don't have a mobile phone or
You live in an area without mobile coverage
Some card providers say:
Facial recognition
Fingerprints
They will e-mail a code (but only for the first 5 transactions after September) or
You can get a code over a landline
But if you don't have a mobile phone or a mobile signal how can you send a selfie or a fingerprint?
To learn more, not that there's much info out there currently, search for
Strong customer authentication
or ask your card supplier, but don't expect them to have all the answers.
For information there was a piece about this matter on the Radio 4 Money Box programme last night, February 3rd. Apparently they asked the likes of Visa and Mastercard to participate but they both declined.
So if like me you're in the 5% of people in the UK who don't have decent mobile coverage you might not be buying anything online at home ever again after September.
Now where's my cheque book? I think I'll be needing it again.
Now where's my cheque book? I think I'll be needing it again.
didn't think you could still get one, thought it meant too much work for the banks.
What you describe with 2 factor authentication via mobile is one method of achieving the requirements of the revised Payment Services Directive, but there are plenty of others. So a mobile isn't necessarily essential (though that may be easiest for the banks).
The PSD requires 2 of 3 from:
Something you know eg password/PIN etc
Something you own eg phone, smart card, token (the latter two have been used by some banks for years anyway)
Something you are eg fingerprint, facial recognition, DNA(!), iris scan etc. Fingerprint and facial recognition can already be done by increasing number of devices and don't need to necessarily use a mobile signal (but would need some form of ability to pass an electronic token confirming that you've passed the check to whatever device you were paying on) ie the fingerprint/selfie doesn't have to be sent anywhere (just checked against what is already recorded on the device)
So no need to panic yet.
Cheers Mike
Quote from: Buzzard on February 04, 2019, 12:43:10 PM
To provide proof a 6 digit code will be sent to your mobile phone...
This system is already being enforced by HMRC for self-employed log-ins to their online services. I found it quite intrusive but a two-week search to find a way around it came up with no viable results.
Quote from: class37025 on February 04, 2019, 01:03:11 PMdidn't think you could still get one, thought it meant too much work for the banks.
Got a brand new one last week
QuoteThis system is already being enforced by HMRC for self-employed log-ins to their online services
A sneaky way of linking mobile phone numbers and/or email addresses to real names and addresses was my first thought,considering you dont have to give either on your self assessment tax return.
This type of authentication is already in use, as I found today when I logged into my PayPal account to update a Credit Card payment method.
The reason for the update: some :censored: had recently fraudulently tried to use my existing card details (not, I should add, related to my PayPal account).
I signed in with email and password, was then directed to confirm my mobile number that they had on file was correct, and then they sent a six digit code to that mobile, which I had enter to enter my PayPal account.
Great stuff. :thumbsup:
Anything like this to protect my accounts, cards and other personal details is fine by me. I live in an area with poor mobile coverage, but so far it's not been a problem, and other methods will have to be made available if it proves problematical in the future, or for those with no mobile.
As for chequebooks - I still have one and have used it just once (two months ago) in the last ten years.
Yes and if you use PayPal you wont be asked to authenticate every transaction as PayPal has already authenticated you.
NB PayPal has a password and to use a credit card online does not, which is why they are introducing it.
off topic, but some years ago I was in the bank one day, and they were really pushing online banking, entirely for my convenience of course ;) nothing to do with letting them close branches / make staff redundant / save costs / make more profits :veryangry:
anyway, the cashier was really pushy about it, so in the end I said
"ok, I change over, when will the computer arrive?"
puzzled look "computer ?"
"yes, of course you could supply a laptop thingy if it's easier, or one that sits on the table, I don't mind really"
"You don't understand, sir, we don't supply you with a computer"
silence for a few seconds ...
"so how do I bank online without a computer ? I haven't got one"
resulted in giggles from the queue behind, and barely concealed anger from the cashier >:D
for some reason I never got asked that again when I went in :D
Here in the US we've had 2 factor authentication for a while.
You don't need a mobile, just a computer, the verification can be done by mobile, email, or landline.
If you don't have a computer then you won't be making online purchases, and BTW, this is being used more and more here for anything online, getting email, logging into accounts, etc ,etc.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: class37025 on February 04, 2019, 01:03:11 PM
Now where's my cheque book? I think I'll be needing it again.
didn't think you could still get one, thought it meant too much work for the banks.
Hi
I've always had a cheque book and still have one.
Cheers
Paul
I had this happen the other month.
We were on a works night out, setup a tab at the bar and when I came to pay it (using a phone app) using my corporate credit card it wanted to do 2FA by calling the number my card was registered too. This of course was my work number, which funnily enough no one answered so it refused the transaction.
Quote from: Buzzard on February 04, 2019, 12:43:10 PM
From September 2019, and courtesy of the EU, when you want to make an online purchase your card provider will require additional proof of who you are. This is to help to combat online fraud which by the way is the banks responsibility.
No doubt the banks will be informing us of this in November 2019. ::)
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 04, 2019, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: Buzzard on February 04, 2019, 12:43:10 PM
From September 2019, and courtesy of the EU, when you want to make an online purchase your card provider will require additional proof of who you are. This is to help to combat online fraud which by the way is the banks responsibility.
No doubt the banks will be informing us of this in November 2019. ::)
That early? ;D
Actually, Tesco Bank have already put on their online banking site that they'll be wanting to send a code to a mobile - so, since I live in a poor reception area and therefore don't have a mobile switched on, I've edited my account to remove the mobile number ;)
Loads of services use two factor authentication already. Apple have been doing it for years. eBay, Microsoft, Autodesk, Google and Goldman Sachs all appear in my phone in the last month with authentication codes. Huge non issue IMO.
Of the 5% of people the OP mentions without good phone signal how are they buying things online? Using a computer with a broadband connection I presume. To which their mobile device can also connect...
Mobile phone reception where I live is appalling so it's never switched on at home. It hasn't got internet capability and is used purely to make calls and text when out. Anything else is surplus to my requirements.
Calls? What are they?! :hmmm:
Oooo........ was it a meteor or lack of smart phones that ended the Jurasic era. :D
Only kidding, however as I understand it you will be able to request your method of second authentication. If you are ordering online, which is what we are talking about, then you can receive email.
American Express is already applying this to selected purchases from new sellers and over a certain threshold. I have received email and cellphone code communications for the same transactions and the codes were different.
Quote from: njee20 on February 04, 2019, 09:18:17 PMOf the 5% of people the OP mentions without good phone signal how are they buying things online? Using a computer with a broadband connection I presume. To which their mobile device can also connect...
With my rubbish broadband connection I can buy stuff and read forums but how can I receive a text on my phone via broadband?
Phone with WiFi?
I accept there will be a subset of those with poor phone signal who do not have smart phones (like NN, and possibly you), but as has been said there are alternatives in place for that subset of a subset!
As Nick says most modern mobiles will piggyback off the wifi if you allow it. The other thing you can do is ask your mobile provider for a signal booster - some give them out free, others charge for them.
Or as I said earlier, there are plenty of other ways that banks can fulfil the requirements but that is a discussion you need to have with your bank/card provider.
In general 2 factor authentication has been around for ages and if it helps reduce the amount of online fraud etc then that is a good thing for everyone.
As ever, behind the sensationalist headlines there is a lot more that isn't reported.
In this case, a laudable intent and there are a lot of common sense clauses that mitigate the impact and burden.
What I can glean from the limited information received from my debit card issuer (HSBC/visa):
1. It only applies to transactions over 50 Euro / c £35, similar to the cash limits for 'unverified' contactless payments on many cards.
2. As a blanket requirement, it only requires every transaction to go through 2-factor verification when one party is within the EU and the other outside the EU. (How the UK will fit within that after March is a moot point...)
3. You as the purchaser will be able to 'white-list' sellers. After your first 2-factor verified transaction with them, you should not need to go through the process again for subsequent transactions with that seller until the expiry of the credit/debit card.
(not clear how this works with 2 above - e.g. whether you can 'white-list' non-EU sellers)
4. Existing pass-code systems such as "Verified by Visa" (which asks for 2-4 characters from a string specified by the user) are expected to fulfil the requirements without the need for SMS/e-mailed codes.
5. there may be some lee-way for intermediaries (card-issuers, banks etc) to apply some form of 'risk-logic' modelling algorithm to determine which transactions require 2-factor verification. (My information hints at this being still under negotiation/development).
Quote from: njee20 on February 04, 2019, 09:18:17 PM
...To which their mobile device can also connect...
Mine can't.
Yep, as I mentioned, those without a smart phone will have other authentication methods available to them, but (whilst probably disproportionately represented among railway modellers due to 'advancing years') the majority of people buying online do have access to a smart phone these days, so it's the easiest method to provide 2FA.
Many places don't accept cheques now, or orders by fax, but that doesn't mean that no one still uses those technologies.
Like PLD I can't help but think this is not going to be the catastrophe which the headlines may suggest.
I don't do any online banking or transactions ,MY WIFE WONT LET ME .
Mind you it saves a lot of arguements ,We don't even have any credit cards ,Val does have a debit card ,so do I but she keeps it in her handbag .
So if I don't have the cash I can't buy anything .
Bob Tidbury
Conversely, my barber aside, I'm trying to think of a cash transaction I've made in the last few months!
QuoteI'm trying to think of a cash transaction I've made in the last few months!
im the opposite,cash were ever possible.
Quote from: njee20 on February 06, 2019, 08:37:04 AM
...but (whilst probably disproportionately represented among railway modellers due to 'advancing years') the majority of people buying online do have access to a smart phone these days...
Still not me - advancing years are something I still have to look forward to. Perhaps instead I'm disproportionately unrepresentative of non-advanced years modellers...?
Quote from: themadhippy on February 06, 2019, 12:41:31 PM
QuoteI'm trying to think of a cash transaction I've made in the last few months!
im the opposite,cash were ever possible.
In London particularly there are more and more places going cashless; market stalls, pubs etc, originally the last places you'd be able to use a card.
Quote from: CarriageShed on February 06, 2019, 12:49:29 PM
Quote from: njee20 on February 06, 2019, 08:37:04 AM
...but (whilst probably disproportionately represented among railway modellers due to 'advancing years') the majority of people buying online do have access to a smart phone these days...
Still not me - advancing years are something I still have to look forward to. Perhaps instead I'm disproportionately unrepresentative of non-advanced years modellers...?
83% of mobile phone users use a smartphone (source (https://www.statista.com/statistics/387218/market-share-of-smartphone-devices-in-the-uk/)), so of course there will be exceptions, and I suspect it's more than 17% of the user base of this forum still on 'dumb' mobiles, as per my comment. That doesn't require every single person still avoiding a smart phone now identify themselves!
How many of those do have a tablet, however. I'll wager it's not zero.
QuoteIn London particularly there are more and more places going cashless;
I would be avoiding such establishments.The government would love to do away with cash,the black market would disappear,but so would another bit of our freedom.And what happens when the networks go down?mind you its a nice way to control the population,sorry we think your getting overweight your cards been stopped in the pie shop, saladsRus is the only retailer who will take your card now.
Well yes, you'd go hungry in a growing number of places, so maybe it will deal with obesity, and of course you wouldn't be able to get a bus in London either, so you'd have to walk. You may be onto something there...
I'd happily do away with cash.
Quote from: themadhippy on February 06, 2019, 01:16:19 PM
I would be avoiding such establishments.The government would love to do away with cash,the black market would disappear,but so would another bit of our freedom.And what happens when the networks go down?mind you its a nice way to control the population,sorry we think your getting overweight your cards been stopped in the pie shop, saladsRus is the only retailer who will take your card now.
Absolutely totally agree. The other reason is that every service can then charge for using something that's free with cash - Paypal, credit cards etc etc. It's all about control and creaming more money from us.
I use cash as much as possible.
Cheers,
Alan
Or rather than perhaps wild conspiracy theories about freedoms/controls perhaps it is just about convenience...
Cash is not free - many banks charge retailers for paying in cash. Paying by card often gives consumers various protections in addition to payment. Businesses should factor into their prices the transaction costs (whether by cash or card) - the net impact on consumers is small.
Quote from: Dr Al on February 06, 2019, 01:31:52 PM
Quote from: themadhippy on February 06, 2019, 01:16:19 PM
I would be avoiding such establishments.The government would love to do away with cash,the black market would disappear,but so would another bit of our freedom.And what happens when the networks go down?mind you its a nice way to control the population,sorry we think your getting overweight your cards been stopped in the pie shop, saladsRus is the only retailer who will take your card now.
Absolutely totally agree. The other reason is that every service can then charge for using something that's free with cash - Paypal, credit cards etc etc. It's all about control and creaming more money from us.
Technically they can't, retailers are no longer allowed to charge any premium for any sort of personal payment method.
I totally agree with Mike, it's all about convenience, security, safety, cost saving and nothing about charging you more money.
Quote from: njee20 on February 06, 2019, 02:59:11 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on February 06, 2019, 01:31:52 PM
Quote from: themadhippy on February 06, 2019, 01:16:19 PM
I would be avoiding such establishments.The government would love to do away with cash,the black market would disappear,but so would another bit of our freedom.And what happens when the networks go down?mind you its a nice way to control the population,sorry we think your getting overweight your cards been stopped in the pie shop, saladsRus is the only retailer who will take your card now.
Absolutely totally agree. The other reason is that every service can then charge for using something that's free with cash - Paypal, credit cards etc etc. It's all about control and creaming more money from us.
Technically they can't, retailers are no longer allowed to charge any premium for any sort of personal payment method.
But sadly, and worryingly, some retailers and organisations still do! :o
Take care to check every payment, before and after using any method, to ensure you are not being overcharged in this way.
Details and sound advice here:
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2018/01/some-credit-card-users-still-being-charged-despite-law-change/ (https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2018/01/some-credit-card-users-still-being-charged-despite-law-change/)
That was a year ago, but yes, definitely worth checking.
Quote from: njee20 on February 06, 2019, 04:40:43 PM
That was a year ago, but yes, definitely worth checking.
True, but my 20-something granddaughter, who has been with me for a couple of days, had just such a problem with a payment just last week, which is why the problem was high on my radar.
Quote from: njee20 on February 06, 2019, 02:59:11 PM
I totally agree with Mike, it's all about convenience, security, safety, cost saving and nothing about charging you more money.
Fair enough - but it's been openly admitted by the banking industry as to why they want to kill cash:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b097rqr4 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b097rqr4)
Worth watching when it's next repeated...
As for costs, whether retailers pass the cost on - they do - even if not directly, they'll simply raise their retail price to soak it up.
Cheers,
Alan
But as you can't differentiate on the payment method, you pay the same for cash, and attributing price rises due to a rise in card payments versus market forces, material costs, inflation etc is impossible, I stand by my 'meh'. I'm happy to pay a few pence here and there for convenience. I always pay for parking by app where available, there's nearly always a c20p charge for this, but that's fine by me.
I agree that some service providers who were forced to remove card fees (I think Deliveroo were among them) didn't remove the fee they just unified the prices at the higher level, but that's hardly surprising.
I'm all for choice, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I actively want to abolish cash, I'm just not fussed, and would be totally happy if it were removed from circulation as I use it so little.
Until all the world utilises cashless systems like those from Nayax and others, I will keep a bit of cash on me when out and about for those moments when I need to 'spend a penny' (or 20p or half a Swiss Franc, or whatever it is these days.)
https://www.nayax.com/cashless_solution_public_restrooms/ (https://www.nayax.com/cashless_solution_public_restrooms/)
What a random niche to pursue, given they seem to just be selling NFC card readers like myriad other solutions out there!
Spare a thought for those who work in the banknote printing/paper industry.
Some of the world's leading companies in this industry are UK-based and bring in millions with their export earnings.
I myself work for a banknote paper company that has just gone bust.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2019, 10:03:37 AM
I always pay for parking by app where available, there's nearly always a c20p charge for this, but that's fine by me.
I work hard for my money, so I am principled against these kind of surcharges. It all adds up, and the banks make more than enough money out of me as it is.
And parking....another cash cow.....don't even start me!
Cheers,
Alan
I agree, but what price on your time? I'd need to go to the bank (repeatedly) to get the requisite cash, which is worth significantly more than the 20p cost to use an app, and avoids me having to carry large amounts of change at all times.
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
I agree, but what price on your time? I'd need to go to the bank (repeatedly) to get the requisite cash, which is worth significantly more than the 20p cost to use an app, and avoids me having to carry large amounts of change at all times.
None - I pick up cash when I'm shopping or getting fuel.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2019, 10:03:37 AM
I agree that some service providers who were forced to remove card fees (I think Deliveroo were among them) didn't remove the fee they just unified the prices at the higher level, but that's hardly surprising.
Yeah Just-Eat took that approach, there's now a "service charge" of 50p however you pay. There was a lot of fuss about it a year ago. On the other hand though, that's still worth it for me to be able to sit indoors in comfort and have my indian/chinese/kebab/steak or whatever delivered on a rainy/blustery evening :D
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 07, 2019, 12:50:59 PM
Yeah Just-Eat took that approach, there's now a "service charge" of 50p however you pay. There was a lot of fuss about it a year ago. On the other hand though, that's still worth it for me to be able to sit indoors in comfort and have my indian/chinese/kebab/steak or whatever delivered on a rainy/blustery evening :D
Ah yes, Just Eat, not Deliveroo!
Quote from: Dr Al on February 07, 2019, 12:50:33 PM
None - I pick up cash when I'm shopping or getting fuel.
I try and do the former online and the latter using "pay at pump" card machines, far quicker ;-)
It's interesting that in the last year card transactions (including contactless) now outnumber cash, so there's a definite trend toward 'cashless', and obviously if you look at transactions over £20 it's not even close.
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
I try and do the former online and the latter using "pay at pump" card machines, far quicker ;-)
Would be nice, but here at any rate online grocery shopping is dismal - too often substituting items out of stock, plus the (significant at times) delivery charge.
Cheers
Alan
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
I agree, but what price on your time? I'd need to go to the bank (repeatedly) to get the requisite cash, which is worth significantly more than the 20p cost to use an app, and avoids me having to carry large amounts of change at all times.
Well since they closed 2 banks and 2 building societies in the nearest town, the only place for money is the post office ( which gained a machine in the wall when the banks closed), or the machines outside Tescos..
I draw £200 at a time which lasts several months normally..(much less if I'm going to a MRC show)
Using an app would cost considerably more than 20p, it would cost the purchase of the smart phone and line charges for something I don't use / can't use for lack of signal..
With the reports of just eat, and deliveroo, staff not delivering, or eating some of the contents, I'd be put off, even if they did cover my area..
Quote from: The Q on February 07, 2019, 01:03:57 PM
With the reports of just eat, and deliveroo, staff not delivering, or eating some of the contents, I'd be put off, even if they did cover my area..
with Just-Eat the actual delivery is arranged by the takeaway - either by themselves or in my area looks like sometimes taxi drivers supplementing their income. Never had any bad experiences like those you mention.
Unfortunately it's just too easy to be lazy and not bother to cook!
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 07, 2019, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: The Q on February 07, 2019, 01:03:57 PM
With the reports of just eat, and deliveroo, staff not delivering, or eating some of the contents, I'd be put off, even if they did cover my area..
Unfortunately it's just too easy to be lazy and not bother to cook!
They discovered some blocks of flats in Rome from Roman times... With no cooking facilities, the only conclusion the archaeoligists could come to was..... they eat out all the time... nothing is new...
Quote from: njee20 on February 06, 2019, 01:19:46 PM
I'd happily do away with cash.
Give it to me please.
Thanks,
Joe
Joe if I had any, I would! ;)
Quote from: The Q on February 07, 2019, 01:03:57 PM
Well since they closed 2 banks and 2 building societies in the nearest town, the only place for money is the post office ( which gained a machine in the wall when the banks closed), or the machines outside Tescos..
I draw £200 at a time which lasts several months normally..(much less if I'm going to a MRC show)
Using an app would cost considerably more than 20p, it would cost the purchase of the smart phone and line charges for something I don't use / can't use for lack of signal..
And that's absolutely fine, once again I didn't say "everyone should do this", I'm pro-choice, it just isn't mine, because I do have a smart phone!
I definitely don't want to be walking around with £200 all the time, and sadly I'd never manage to make that last a few months!
Quote from: daffy on February 07, 2019, 10:50:14 AM
Until all the world utilises cashless systems like those from Nayax and others, I will keep a bit of cash on me when out and about for those moments when I need to 'spend a penny' (or 20p or half a Swiss Franc, or whatever it is these days.)
https://www.nayax.com/cashless_solution_public_restrooms/ (https://www.nayax.com/cashless_solution_public_restrooms/)
Could that be "Pay-as-you-poo"? ???
Come to sunny Japan where cash is king and public toilets are plentiful, free and (mainly) clean :beers:
I recall we've had this conversation recently, but it is weird that Japan, technological leader, known for embracing crazy technologies, still relies on cash!
Quote from: njee20 on February 08, 2019, 09:03:05 AM
I recall we've had this conversation recently, but it is weird that Japan, technological leader, known for embracing crazy technologies, still relies on cash!
Suits me - it's widely accepted, widely available from ATMs, doesn't require a charged-up device or PIN numbers or fiddling around with online accounts, no-one bats an eyelid if you proffer a large-denomination note for a small purchase, vending and ticket machines accept it at first go most times, there's a good chance you'll get it back if you lose some and you have to be really negligent to get it stolen. Also it will work after a natural disaster when all the other fancy payment systems are offline (this is an important consideration in Japan).
Doesn't Japan use personal rubber stamps, to "Sign" Cheques, rather than a signature?
Quote from: railsquid on February 08, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Quote from: njee20 on February 08, 2019, 09:03:05 AM
I recall we've had this conversation recently, but it is weird that Japan, technological leader, known for embracing crazy technologies, still relies on cash!
Suits me - it's widely accepted, widely available from ATMs, doesn't require a charged-up device or PIN numbers or fiddling around with online accounts, no-one bats an eyelid if you proffer a large-denomination note for a small purchase, vending and ticket machines accept it at first go most times, there's a good chance you'll get it back if you lose some and you have to be really negligent to get it stolen. Also it will work after a natural disaster when all the other fancy payment systems are offline (this is an important consideration in Japan).
Fully agree Ian, even though I welcome such securities as Two Factor Authentication and appreciate the usefulness of a Card payment in this so-called better world we live in.
I assume that a retailer, who normally works from home and therefore will have to use this two stage system. Will when attending a show, use a machine and having the card present and typing in the pin in also counts as two stage clearance..
Meanwhile there is another very good reason to pay cash, you can slowly accumulate modelling tokens, so that when you come home from a show you can claim... I got it a huge discount dear...
It's funny isn't it, because I'd never view cash as the "easy alternative"; I can carry one tiny piece of plastic which will enable me to buy a coffee at the station, my ticket, my lunch, and do some shopping. I don't have to visit ATMs, it doesn't run out, it doesn't have incorrect denominations, nor do I have to worry that someone won't have the correct change, it doesn't take up lots of space in my pocket/wallet, I don't have to rifle through a whole stack to get the right one. Faffing with apps consists of moving money around between accounts which I'd want to do anyway - I don't want my savings in cash under the mattress.
It's obviously a cultural difference with Japan (particularly the notion that losing cash will result in your getting in back - no chance in the UK, I can't comprehend the idea it's preferable to lose a wad of cash versus dropping a card which is frozen after one phone call, or a tap in an app), and I expect a generational one in the UK, but I personally can think of no reason why cash is easier (although I fully accept that cash will still work without any infrastructure as that's relevant to Japan).
Our cleaner used to want cash, and having to find £22 every time was a massive pain. She invariably got £25 one visit and £20 the next, or £30 one visit and £20 the subsequent two visits, which actually cost me more. Now I can go into my app and pay her £22 every single time in less time than it takes to get my wallet, assuming I even had the cash. There's one ATM in my village, which is regularly empty, because of which the supermarket only do up to £20 cashback to limit demand, so if I didn't have the cash I'd have to drive a 14 mile round trip to go and get some, which would then still only be either £20 or £30, leading to the exact same problem above.
Quote from: The Q on February 08, 2019, 11:33:21 AM
I assume that a retailer, who normally works from home and therefore will have to use this two stage system. Will when attending a show, use a machine and having the card present and typing in the pin in also counts as two stage clearance..
Meanwhile there is another very good reason to pay cash, you can slowly accumulate modelling tokens, so that when you come home from a show you can claim... I got it a huge discount dear...
I just don't lie to my wife, I find that easier! ;)
Quote from: njee20 on February 08, 2019, 11:38:09 AM
I just don't lie to my wife, I find that easier! ;)
Hi
Neither do I.
My wife years ago made a comment that "If you never lie you never have to remember anything"
Cheers
Paul
In spite of the growth of new methods of payment, and anti-cash lobbying by the likes of Visa and Mastercard, the number of banknotes in circulation is increasing by at least 3% per year on a global basis.
The demand for cash is driven by growth of GDP, population, and currently by low interest rates - why keep money in the bank if it's not earning interest ?
The preference for cash is definitely a cultural phenomonen. Cash is the preferred payment method in Germany for example.
Finally, be aware that if cash is done away with then the government will be able to impose negative interest rates on money in your bank account !
Best regards,
Joe
I imagine there are vast regional variations for sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if cash were becoming more popular globally. Of course that's not the same as the number of notes in circulation being greater.
The German credit market is definitely different to ours, for a country one would consider similar, they don't have the casual use of credit that we tend to.
The government can already impose negative interest rates if they want. But they don't. They could do all sort of things, but I don't really see the point in worrying about it.
Quote from: njee20 on February 08, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
The government can already impose negative interest rates if they want.
And you can still withdraw cash from your bank account if you want to. For now.
Standing behind some girlie in the queue to post a parcel..... "oh me applepay don't work, I'll 'ave to go ousside and try to get it workin', I never 'ave no cash" and this is after the guy behind the counter has already started the process and it's tricky to back it out. Aaaaargh!!!!!
Modern tech all very well but for heaven's sake have some cash on you!
Or a card. I'm not a massive fan of ApplePay, have used it a couple of times in emergencies when I've not got my wallet, but it's not really any easier than a card I don't think. For every example of someone failing to get that work there are a lot more examples of "sorry I've only got a £20", or "hang on, I've got the change here somewhere", "do you want the 20p?" etc etc.
Joe - you could still move money elsewhere, you don't need to hide it all under your matress in cash, which is potentially worthless in the event there's been some colossal economic destabilisation which has led the population to withdraw all their cash en masse. But that's right into the realms of paranoia.
Cash will continue to exist for a very long time, but its use within the UK will likely continue to decline IMO.
Two thoughts:
1. If I lose my (non-existent) smart phone linked to a credit/debit card and a thief finds it and uses it (yes, how many PIN's are 1234?), the bank will send a code to the phone (text or email)...how is that secure?
2. I went to log onto my online bank this morning and they wanted to have me change the security questions and answers. The drop-down menu of questions for the three challenges consisted of 10 possible questions each, 9 of 10 of which were things that are public record and/or obtainable online (paternal grandfather's middle name, city of birth, city of marriage, etc.)...how secure is that?
Jon
Cash only for me , cash or debit card for my wife .
We don't have a credit card or do online banking and never will as long as we can hold out and it becomes the only method .
It's the safest way .
Bob Tidbury
There are still some establishments in the area who refuse a card payment for anything less than a fiver. Whether this is legal or not I have no clue.
Quote from: Jon898 on February 08, 2019, 01:37:18 PM
Two thoughts:
1. If I lose my (non-existent) smart phone linked to a credit/debit card and a thief finds it and uses it (yes, how many PIN's are 1234?), the bank will send a code to the phone (text or email)...how is that secure?
2. I went to log onto my online bank this morning and they wanted to have me change the security questions and answers. The drop-down menu of questions for the three challenges consisted of 10 possible questions each, 9 of 10 of which were things that are public record and/or obtainable online (paternal grandfather's middle name, city of birth, city of marriage, etc.)...how secure is that?
1. what do you mean they'll send a code to the phone? One call to your provider gets your phone blocked, if your PIN isn't 1234 (and I don't know anyone's whose is) then many phones will erase all content after 10(ish) consecutive failed attempts. Furthermore every banking app I've got requires a second code to get into, and you can't set up new payees without secondary authentication requiring a bank card. So, what's the concern...?
2. obviously that depends on the provider, it's often first car/first school/favourite place etc here, which are more personal, but again, there should be provision in place if you repeatedly get those questions wrong, and if someone's sufficiently dedicated to look at that information up then good luck to them! I'll just claim against my bank for any fraudulent transactions.
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on February 08, 2019, 02:00:56 PM
Cash only for me , cash or debit card for my wife .
We don't have a credit card or do online banking and never will as long as we can hold out and it becomes the only method .
It's the safest way .
Really glad you're happy with your chosen methods, but I disagree that cash is safer. As an end customer you're far more likely to have cash stolen (for which there's no recourse whatsoever) than lose out to any sort of card fraud (for which you'll get the money back anyway), and you're losing a lot of protection that comes with debit, or particularly credit card purchasing.
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 08, 2019, 02:10:48 PM
There are still some establishments in the area who refuse a card payment for anything less than a fiver. Whether this is legal or not I have no clue.
Yep, totally legal. Minimum thresholds are not a charge.
Quote from njee20:
Quote.....if your PIN isn't 1234 (and I don't know anyone's whose is)
Er, so how many PIN codes of other people do you know? :hmmm: Aren't they supposed to be private and individual? :D
I've seen enough people put PINs into their phones to know that I've never seen anyone type 1234. Why would you? It's literally no less effort.
But you know it's a "personal identification number", not private or individual! ;)
Quote from: njee20 on February 08, 2019, 02:37:34 PM
I've seen enough people put PINs into their phones to know that I've never seen anyone type 1234. Why would you? It's literally no less effort.
But you know it's a "personal identification number", not private or individual! ;)
Hi
Its easy to remember :)
Cheers
Paul
So having initially poo-poo'ed the idea of Apple Pay, I now use it almost exclusively instead of cards or cash.
It tokenises my card number to a unique ID that IIRC only I can access (because it uses card number plus my phone PIN). No £30 limit on transactions. Requires my PIN/face to use, except for my watch* but I could enable a PIN on that IIRC.
The two cards that I have can be locked almost instantly on an app/online.
So apart from convenience (yes I'm too lazy to even get a contactless card out of my wallet!) it is also more secure than carrying around cash or waving cards around. If I lose my phone (easy to lock / remotely wipe) then I've still got alternatives through cards or cash in wallet - assuming I've not left the damn thing at home!
Horses for courses and I firmly believe in people having choices, but the UK stats are clear about the decline of cash!
* the watch is pretty secure as it locks as soon as I take it off (based on a heartbeat) so if mugged it isn't much use.
Yes I must admit I'd forgotten there's not the £30 limit on Apple Pay, that would tempt me back to using it more!
It is true that in the UK the market share of cashless payments is greater than that of cash.
However, paradoxically, the number of banknotes in circulation is increasing.
I predict that plastic cards will disappear before banknotes do.
Quote from: daffy on February 08, 2019, 02:34:28 PM
Quote from njee20:
Quote.....if your PIN isn't 1234 (and I don't know anyone's whose is)
Er, so how many PIN codes of other people do you know? :hmmm: Aren't they supposed to be private and individual? :D
Apparently over 10% use 1234 : https://lifehacker.com/the-most-and-least-common-pin-numbers-and-numeric-pas-5944567
It's similar to those dummy's who use "password" for their password...
yes we're talking about you Podesta.
Jon
... and from lifehacker we also see the problem goes beyond 4 digits...
QuoteExpanding the analysis to all-numeric passwords (not just four-digit ones), guess which are the most popular? Yup, 12345 for 5 digits, 123456 for 6 digits, and so on.
Can confirm my pin is 1111 much easier to remember
password is SleepyDopeyDocGrumpyHappyBashfulSneezy1234 complying with our corporate policy of 7 characters and a number...
But I still don't understand the argument.
Even if your PIN is 1234, and you lose your phone, what do people do with that? You can block a phone instantly, and even if someone unlocks it they can't spend money (AFAIK) without your fingerprint or face, I don't think (but very happy to be wrong) you can buy using ApplePay or AndroidPay simply by having your phone unlocked, there's a secondary authentication needed at point of purchase.
How is that worse than dropping cash? What protection mechanisms are in place if you drop £100 in cash? What do your bank do if you phone them and say "I dropped £1,000 in cash, and it was spent fraudulently"?
It reminds me a bit of the opposition to PINs; "but someone can just watch you put it in, then they know it". yes, of course, but they didn't used to even need to do that!
Quote from: njee20 on February 08, 2019, 03:29:21 PM
What protection mechanisms are in place if you drop £100 in cash? What do your bank do if you phone them and say "I dropped £1,000 in cash, and it was spent fraudulently"?
Inflation in the comment is as bad a Venezuela... :D
Yeah, my hypothetical situation took place in Caracas!
Quote from: Jon898 on February 08, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
Quote from: daffy on February 08, 2019, 02:34:28 PM
Quote from njee20:
Quote.....if your PIN isn't 1234 (and I don't know anyone's whose is)
Er, so how many PIN codes of other people do you know? :hmmm: Aren't they supposed to be private and individual? :D
Apparently over 10% use 1234 : https://lifehacker.com/the-most-and-least-common-pin-numbers-and-numeric-pas-5944567
It's similar to those dummy's who use "password" for their password...yes we're talking about you Podesta.
Jon
That was a very interesting link; thank you.
I noted that 4444 was the eighth most popular PIN. I wonder if that's due to the LMS '4F' enthusiasts... Certainly, if Union Mills ever make a '4F', I'd hope for No. 4444. Or even, 44444 if I fancied a BR locomotive!
Quote from: Train Waiting on February 08, 2019, 06:33:40 PM
I noted that 4444 was the eighth most popular PIN. I wonder if that's due to the LMS '4F' enthusiasts...
[/quote]
Funny you should say that. My very first PIN was the number of a GWR mogul - albeit a non-existent one, coz they didn't build enough to reach the number.
For a while my work passwords were S15 designer and numbers - the LSWR/Southern number for the short password, the BR one for the systems which required a couple more characters.
Quote from: Jon898 on February 08, 2019, 01:37:18 PM
Two thoughts:
2. I went to log onto my online bank this morning and they wanted to have me change the security questions and answers. The drop-down menu of questions for the three challenges consisted of 10 possible questions each, 9 of 10 of which were things that are public record and/or obtainable online (paternal grandfather's middle name, city of birth, city of marriage, etc.)...how secure is that?
Jon
You don't have to answer truthfully, so we've had numerous pets over the years, and I've used some of their names for questions like mothers maiden name...
For place of birth I've used somewhere I've never lived..
"Verified by Visa" was mentioned in an earlier post. Is this system still in use?
I assume "Mastercard Securecode" is/was a similar system although for some reason I haven't been asked to use it for years.
Quote from: swisstrains on February 09, 2019, 09:30:02 AM
"Verified by Visa" was mentioned in an earlier post. Is this system still in use?
I assume "Mastercard Securecode" is/was a similar system although for some reason I haven't been asked to use it for years.
Yes and Yes...
I was prompted for a VbV authentication a couple of months ago, which was the first time for quite a while. It was when using a hotel booking website HQ'd in another EU country. I think it was the first time I'd used that site since a new Debit card was issued, hence 'whitelisting' expired with the previous card.
Yes, both of those verification systems are still active and I see sites directing my transactions through them, but it seems the card providers must be recognising my regular usage patterns and not bothering to prompt for verification these days.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 09, 2019, 10:35:24 AM
Yes, both of those verification systems are still active and I see sites directing my transactions through them, but it seems the card providers must be recognising my regular usage patterns and not bothering to prompt for verification these days.
Yes Nick. I've seen the Visa and Mastercard pages "flash up" briefly during transactions also. I wasn't sure if the systems were still active or if it was just a glitsch.
Quote from: PLD on February 09, 2019, 10:09:24 AM
Quote from: swisstrains on February 09, 2019, 09:30:02 AM
"Verified by Visa" was mentioned in an earlier post. Is this system still in use?
I assume "Mastercard Securecode" is/was a similar system although for some reason I haven't been asked to use it for years.
Yes and Yes...
I was prompted for a VbV authentication a couple of months ago, which was the first time for quite a while. It was when using a hotel booking website HQ'd in another EU country. I think it was the first time I'd used that site since a new Debit card was issued, hence 'whitelisting' expired with the previous card.
It is such a long time since I was asked to verify my debit card that I had forgotten that I was even involved with the VbV system. If I remember correctly my verification data was just passed on from my original Maestro card.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 09, 2019, 10:35:24 AM
Yes, both of those verification systems are still active and I see sites directing my transactions through them, but it seems the card providers must be recognising my regular usage patterns and not bothering to prompt for verification these days.
It depends on the card issuer. Tesco Bank use VbV but MBNA don't usually - at least, I haven't had to enter anything for ages.
Tesco will allow you to have it turned off, but only for three transactions then you have to ask again. I do so because it's a PITA since I use NoScript to hopefully prevent webpages from dishing me out any "nasties" and I can't always identify which scripts are needed for a site's interaction with VbV.