I go to alot of exhibitions, and the past few year iv seen an ever increase on modern image/diesels and a great decline in steam, this year especially.
Even looking on here more and more people are choosing modern image to model and im wondering is steam really starting to die off? At our local n gauge group im trying to bring steam back with numerous steam latouts and im determined to have a steam only exhibition some time! :veryangry:
I don't think they are dying out, P-D :no:
I reckon most folks model what they remember regardless of whether exhibition or home layout. On that basis it's probably just a reflection of new/younger blood coming into the hobby. For sure there are a plethora of layouts with 'brightly coloured worms' and yes, it makes the layout a little more colourful, but IMHO steam will never die out.
You only have to look at what Dapol & Farish are bringing out to see the demand is still as strong if not stronger going by the shouts going up from the 'modern image' fans.
Although I model late steam/early diesel, I do like to see a full layout of blue diesels now and then. It's probably the latest I can go knowledge wise anyway. Anything after that and I am totally flummoxed as to what is what :-[
I believe our hobby is sometimes a reflection on our childhood and the things we grew up with and after all most will say that we enter our second childhood when we start playing with trains. ;D
Therefore (trying to tread carefully here) diesels/modern image is probably a natural evolution as the older modelers fade away taking their knowledge of all things steam with them.
I have been known to go soft at the sight of an engineering master piece in the form of various steam locos that I've seen in the flesh so to speak but my childhood days that I remember were for all things oil burner related.
Now having put the match to the blue touch paper and being someone who likes 37's, 47's and real HST's, I'm going tip toe away and put on my battle bowler (helmet) and duck! :-X
Well im only a young 25, so i obviously grew up in pure diesel age but i spent my entire childhood around thomas, the nrm, nymr, tanfield so steam was all i saw, and i love them too much to see them replaced with diseasels, even at model level
It could be just a phase that people are going through, especially if a club is involved. I can imagine the steam guys giving way to the diesels to help keep their membership numbers up. Of course I could be way off the mark and there is some other reason. :confused2:
cheers John.
Another issue is that model diesels tend to be better runners than steamers. I know a few people that have gone modern purely for that reason.
Hi, I'm new to railway modelling and n gauge, I was attracted by the steam locos seen on television series like All creatures great and small, the railway children etc. There is a wonderful romance about steam trains that I've yet to be able to express. Steam trains were replaced by the time I was born in 1960 yet I love everything about them and times when they were run. These were innocent times without wi-fi, ipods and games consoles, when people used to meet in the local pub or around the fire to chat.
The others are right - people will connect with the fuel type they are familiar with but it doesn't mean we cant try and convert them. I'd like to see the manufacturers releasing more from LNER & NER and previous liveries. The north east seems to have been short changed which is ionic when you think about Stevenson's Rocket. :thumbsup:
I agree with much of the above. I model the "Green Diesel" era because that's what I remember from my trainspotting days.
As a relative newcomer to N Gauge I am slowly building up my stock of locos, I currently have 4 diesel & 3 steam locos. I have a Blue Pullman & Class 27 on order so diesels will be even more in evidence in the short term.
The problem with steam locos, in my opinion, is availability. I currently am not prepared to buy a new steam loco with solid wheels and moulded handrails. At present I am prepared to wait for models to be upgraded to current standards. I was planning to purchase a Dapol 9F but the models listed in their 2011 catalogue never appeared and I'm also waiting for them to offer one of the Britannias that ran over the Midland Line in the early 60s.
David
Quote from: Jack9465 on November 27, 2012, 03:57:43 PM
I believe our hobby is sometimes a reflection on our childhood and the things we grew up with and after all most will say that we enter our second childhood when we start playing with trains. ;D
Now having put the match to the blue touch paper and being someone who likes 37's, 47's and real HST's, I'm going tip toe away and put on my battle bowler (helmet) and duck! :-X
Well, I was born at the very end of the steam age (I have a recollection of standing on a bridge near the local shed with my father & a steamer going under -
possibly the shed pilot, and
possibly one of the very last journeys in steam at that shed), but grew up with BR blue & the HST. Not a massive fan of the latter & can't stand the former !!! :D
In OO, SWMBO & I have an eclectic mix ... some modern image (not many), some 70s-90s (again, not many), a
very few diesel post-steam to 70s, but by far steam is the mainstay. In N - well, steam
all the way, and more specifically the late 30s to the start of BR (and mainly post-45 at that).
So I'm afraid that if you go by either SWMBO or I, your theory has been blown out of the water :D It's not even as if I grew up in a train-mad family, or went to see trains anywhere either !
Mike
Quote from: martink on November 27, 2012, 04:18:50 PM
Another issue is that model diesels tend to be better runners than steamers. I know a few people that have gone modern purely for that reason.
I suspect this is definitely a factor, in N gauge at least. I had little or no interest in diesels myself until I got into N gauge modelling, now I have half a dozen diesel locos on my (transition-era) layout and can tell the difference between most of the BR-era classes! I still prefer steam but the high price and poor running and/or reliability of most N-gauge main line steam locos means that they're unlikely to outnumber diesels on my layout for the foreseeable future (though I have a fair number of small 0-6-0s)
Another likely factor (in N gauge) is that the smaller scale attracts more modern-image modellers due to the ability to run longer trains in a smaller space - an advantage for any era but especially for modern image where longer, more uniform trains are the norm.
Personally I prefer modelling the earlier railways - pre-Beeching and rationalisation - not only because of the appeal of steam, but because the railways as a whole were much more complex, varied and diverse, with most stations having their own yards, signalboxes, etc., countless rail-served industries, and a huge variety of locos and stock in service, some dating back to the 19th century. My N gauge layout is BR transition era as this allows me to run a "steam era" layout whilst still being able to take advantage of the better running qualities of N gauge diesels! I like the pre-grouping era - late 1800s to 1920s - most, but there isn't a great deal available from this era in N.
Like a few others here, I'm building a transitional layout to get some of the best of both worlds in what I can run. I only have one steam loco so far, but I don't have any real running problems yet.
What I grew up with was BR blue and then NSE, and I'd like to model one or both some day as well - but don't let SWMBO hear me pondering a second layout! Especially with so little completed on the first...
Interesting how we see "Modern Image". Bsically we seem to consider anything from Green Diesels to 2012 as modern image thats a gap of circa 50-60 Years. Most model steamers that I have seen lately come from the end of steam period say 1930 - 1960 and thats a mere 30 years!!
I lived next to the Brighton line. It was all electrics.. We saw the Flying Scotsman once. Sir Nigel Gresley once and a Merchant Navy once.... Saw the Belle everyday (threw that bit in for Pengy)... 73's and 33's...
So why more Modern image than Steam? - For most of us thats what we remember. But maybe its because the time span is bigger than we think....
When I got back into model railways about 5 or 6 years ago I remembered how disappointed I was with the running of early 80's British steam models, so I had a look around at what else I could model and ended up with late 50s early 60s American diesels which run like a dream. I have since added in a mix of Japanese diesel and electric rolling stock and frankly I have never looked back.
Everyone, even me, loves to see a real steam loco in full steam, but from a modelling perspective they are not for me.
If I had a bit of a funny turn and suddenly found myself modelling British railways I would firstly have to do a lot of reading, and secondly would probably start no earlier than a Deltic ;)
Since getting started with Japanese stuff I do now have an appreciation for British MUs, but just the smaller local types, not these new fancy pointy things (I'm not a fan of the Japanese Shinkansens much, beautifully designed though they may be)
BR EMUs were my childhood but I have no desire to recreate them - dirty smelly things. Its the ultra modern sleek clean fast colourful stuff for me.
Because of the lack of it from Dapol/Farish etc, I have become interested in Continental and bullet trains.
I agree with most things that have already been said.
I model late 50s/early60s because that's the period I grew up with.
It is interesting that many steam locos sell out quickly after release and are eagerly awaited by many people (eg the new Dapol Panniers). The major manufacturers also keep on churning out steam locos so they must be selling well.
It's great to see a good mix at exhibitions and shows. I for one quite like to see a mix of old and new.
Quote from: port perran on November 27, 2012, 07:27:32 PM
I agree with most things that have already been said.
I model late 50s/early60s because that's the period I grew up with.
It is interesting that many steam locos sell out quickly after release and are eagerly awaited by many people (eg the new Dapol Panniers). The major manufacturers also keep on churning out steam locos so they must be selling well.
It's great to see a good mix at exhibitions and shows. I for one quite like to see a mix of old and new.
According to a not too old NGS poll the most popular era by some margin is steam/diesel transition say 1958-68.
From my conversations with a retailer I know well it is very often the more modern stuff in a wide variety of of liveries that stays on the shelves and this is borne out by some of the bargain prices we have seen for 57s, 60s etc.
I do not necessarily think we model what we remember, I barely recall steam and green diesels at all, yet that is my preference. I think the truth is we choose to recreate a slice of history for a variety of other reasons too.
Personally I am happy to see a wide range of eras modelled, often for me the quality of the layout is as much of a draw - Stoney Lane Depot is a classic example, the quality of the modelling and attention to detail set it apart, even though it is a location and era I would never model it doesn't matter.
Regards
Roy
I think the reliability of some N steamers hasn't helped, Diesel/electric locos generally have less to go wrong...
That said, i'm sure even the most die hard modern image modeller has a steam special tucked away somewhere !
I love steamers, i'm an S&D man myself - but only recently have i thought of buying N steamers again, i just need that S&D 7F to kick start the ideas again !
It would be unthinkable that N steam disappeared - beeching was bad enough... :veryangry:
:no: Steam will always be here. :)
You see more N 'green diesel/blue diesel/modern image' layouts now simply because there's never been so much choice in those before being available r-t-r. When there was less of it years ago you mainly saw steam era layouts. It's a phase like all scales have. Steams increased as others have said by the amount of stuff that comes out now. The U.K outline N gauge market has never been so good and the confidence of manufacturers is clear by the amount of things they are bringing out both past and present, especially when you consider we are in a recession still!
As to modelling your youth as it were, I don't. I grew up with B.R blue and Notwork Southeast.
I model the transition era of B.R 50's/60's, 1950's Irish and Edwardian. Hardly my youth! :smiley-laughing:
I will always have steam.
Personal opinion because there is much more you can model,coaling stages,water towers, if you have space turntables etc.
I am not adverse to oil burners but as I prefer minimum space layouts they will be limited to shunters and single rail cars.
I think that while Preserved Railways can keep coming up with the cash to keep old steam locos going there will be loads of steam locos running on model railways.
I tried the diesel only thing and decided it was not for me. I now run steam and diesel together and have to say that if N gauge steam locos were a tad more reliable I doubt I would have a diesel on my layout, I grew up with UK steam.
Yet another issue is simply the ongoing march of time. RTR steamers basically cover the period of the '20s to the '50s - say 40 years. This isn't changing (with the odd exception like Tornado). On the other hand, every year that passes brings another year of diesels and electrics and their associated rolling stock, with new classes and new liveries. We have already had more than 50 years of this and this number is steadily increasing. It isn't surprising that the proportion of D/E models is increasing along with it.
Now if only some of the manufacturers would take a risk and start producing some RTR pre-grouping stuff...
Quote from: martink on November 28, 2012, 04:17:20 AM
Now if only some of the manufacturers would take a risk and start producing some RTR pre-grouping stuff...
I wish they'd take a risk and produce more RTR post-grouping stuff - especially a Pendolino :veryangry: :veryangry: (I'll get off my hobby horse now!)
I always have and always will model steam era but I haven't bought anything new for almost 3 years now because there have simply not been any new locos I wanted. The last one I bought was an Ixion/Dapol Manor. As older exhibition layouts pass their sell-by date they are, unfortunately, being replaced by new layouts which tend to reflect what is available now rather than what has been around for 10 years or more. There is also the reliability issue with older steamers and until they are replaced by new models (GWR Kings & Castles come to mind here) exhibitors will be more inclined to use the plethora of new diesel and electric locos that we are seeing.
Apart from people doing what they remember from the steam era,I think it's down to what you see when a steam loco runs.
A diesel goes past it's just a box on wheels,a steam train goes past with all the big wheels turning and the complex motion that's attached to them it's more visually rewarding.
Allan
In the main it seems that 50% of modellers think 'there are too many steam layouts' and the other 50% think 'there are too many diesel layouts'. That to me says the balance is about right!
Overall judging by the content of any typical MR show, the mixed transition period remains the most popular i.e. many modellers want the best of both worlds!
Quote from: martink on November 27, 2012, 04:18:50 PMAnother issue is that model diesels tend to be better runners than steamers. I know a few people that have gone modern purely for that reason.
Personally, I dont think that is entirely true. A properly maintained model of a steam loco running on decent trackwork will run just as sweetly as a diesel model. Admittedly by their very design, the steam model has more delicate moving parts so is not as easy to maintain in tip-top condition and is more prone to damage through rough handling, and by its nature of relatively short and inflexible wheelbase more prone to stalling on dead-frog points or poorly laid track but that's hardly the fault of the model/manufacturer...
Paul
Quote from: Chinahand on November 28, 2012, 08:32:45 AM
I always have and always will model steam era but I haven't bought anything new for almost 3 years now because there have simply not been any new locos I wanted. The last one I bought was an Ixion/Dapol Manor
Not tempted by the Dapol Hall? They are nice models and run well (although a couple do have decoration errors).
Quote from: Thorpe Parva on November 27, 2012, 04:33:33 PM
I was planning to purchase a Dapol 9F but the models listed in their 2011 catalogue never appeared and I'm also waiting for them to offer one of the Britannias that ran over the Midland Line in the early 60s.
There are still 9Fs available in some shops. I suspect the reason the 2011 ones were not produced is that there were still plenty of models from previous runs on the shelves. Dapol ramped up production and dropped the price of the 9F when it seemed that Farish might be producing one. They are not hard to find, even without resorting to eBay.
As for the Brits, Dapol produce both early and late crest versions. If you want a specific loco, why just renumber one? There are etched packs available with names and numbers for many brits. This is easier than modifying a loco with painted numbers since you can just ease off the old plates with a fine knife blade and stick the new ones on in place. No mess, no need to touch up paintwork.
steam layouts dying out... Cant wait to see all the accurate N gauge Barry Island layouts.....
Quote from: AndyGif on November 28, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
steam layouts dying out... Cant wait to see all the accurate N gauge Barry Island layouts.....
Thomas the Scrapped Engine :P
Mainline steam is in time going to move from the realm of "memories" into the world of "historical research", but there are lots of people who like building the latter.
Alan
Quote from: AndyGif on November 28, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
steam layouts dying out... Cant wait to see all the accurate N gauge Barry Island layouts.....
A Barry Island scrap line would be a pretty impressive diorama. Even better if it's done as a working layout with engines being shunted into the lines etc.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 28, 2012, 01:32:56 PM
Thomas the Scrapped Engine :P
Hmmm, the island of Sodor must be the equivalent of limbo for transportation, where all things transportation go to serve out their penance for past misdeeds, until called to Preservation(Heaven) or consigned to the Gas Axe (Hell).
{NOTE, other religions are available, terms and conditions may apply. Contact your local deity for more information}
Quote from: Zwilnik on November 28, 2012, 01:42:55 PM
Quote from: AndyGif on November 28, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
steam layouts dying out... Cant wait to see all the accurate N gauge Barry Island layouts.....
A Barry Island scrap line would be a pretty impressive diorama. Even better if it's done as a working layout with engines being shunted into the lines etc.
The stuff wasn't generally moved around as I understand it.
For moving stuff around and an excuse for lots of weathered stock of all kinds and a layout consisting mostly of sidings full of trains on display it would be hard to beat Long Marston however
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/minzapint/WessexBelle.jpg)
A picture speaks a thousand words, you wont convert me but try showing me a D/E picture with that sort of atmosphere!
As for exhibitions I enjoy well executed layouts in all gauges and eras.
Happy modelling to one and all.
Quote from: MinZaPint on November 28, 2012, 02:27:35 PMA picture speaks a thousand words, you wont convert me but try showing me a D/E picture with that sort of atmosphere!
I'd say this one isn't bad http://www.flickr.com/photos/tunnel_one/5576089571/#sizes/o/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tunnel_one/5576089571/#sizes/o/in/photostream/)
Quote from: martink on November 28, 2012, 04:17:20 AM
Now if only some of the manufacturers would take a risk and start producing some RTR pre-grouping stuff...
I agree with you there! An N gauge 'Rocket' and coaches would sell well I'd have thought. :thumbsup:
Add in a few 'locomotion''s and some wagons and before you know it there'll be 'period costume drama' inspired layouts everywhere! ;)
I did scale of drawing of the 'Planet' (the next type on from Rocket/Northumbrian) to 1:148 and it is TINY
Quote from: BernardTPM on November 28, 2012, 02:55:28 PM
Quote from: MinZaPint on November 28, 2012, 02:27:35 PMA picture speaks a thousand words, you wont convert me but try showing me a D/E picture with that sort of atmosphere!
I'd say this one isn't bad http://www.flickr.com/photos/tunnel_one/5576089571/#sizes/o/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tunnel_one/5576089571/#sizes/o/in/photostream/)
Not a bad effort but
Quote from: Bikeracer on November 28, 2012, 09:07:54 AM
Apart from people doing what they remember from the steam era,I think it's down to what you see when a steam loco runs.
A diesel goes past it's just a box on wheels,a steam train goes past with all the big wheels turning and the complex motion that's attached to them it's more visually rewarding.
Allan
Sums it up! All that smoke has made me thirsty (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink009.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Stupid names like Thrash and Clag are enough to put me of diesels for life :thumbsdown: give me steam and smoke any day :thumbsup:
I said before that seeing steam loco in full steam is a sight to behold but I would never go back to modelling them, because no matter how hard I try, I would never be able to replicate that in a model environment, whereas I can do that with electric and diesel ( to a lesser extent, until someone comes up with an N gauge clag generator :D )
Wow two cracking pictures there guys 8) :thankyousign:
Marty
Quote from: BernardTPM on November 28, 2012, 02:55:28 PM
I'd say this one isn't bad
Yuck, you can almost taste the pollution that thing is pushing out ! :P
[quote
Yuck, you can almost taste the pollution that thing is pushing out ! :P
[/quote]
Which one? The one with the smoke and soot or the one with the diesel fumes? >:D :D I think they both look great ;)
Marty
I think its the diesel spotters I find dire not the trains. Claggy certainly describes some of them
This has been a good thread for me, as I am currently building a new layout "Longbridge" which is the area I did most of my train spotting back in the steam days.
Because I had a few green diesels in my collection I thought I would model the transition era, I have shelved that idea mainly because I left Birmingham before diesels came into being, I have decided to enlarge my steam collection and concentrate on the loco classes that were popular in the mid to late 50s, 9fs, Jubilees, Patriots the occasional Scot, Black 5s, 4fs and and various BR Standards were regulars.
Good for you, Dave. We need more steam fans to offset all these 'Modern Image' people >:D :D
Diesels - :thumbsdown: Steam - :thumbsdown: DMUs - :thumbsup: EMUs - :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Electric fans where are you? Let's combat those who want a return to the Dark Side.
EMUs are not dirty, smelly, oily pollutions machines - they are a magnificent site whether they are sashaying through the curves at Clapham Junction or gliding through the countryside.
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k540/PendythePendolino/Visitors%20to%20East%20Hampshire/DSC_0096_zps73661f59.jpg)
Quote from: Pengy on November 29, 2012, 02:27:23 PM
Electric fans where are you? Let's combat those who want a return to the Dark Side.
Don't worry, it obvious that those kettle fans are running out of steam. It's all just a little huffing and puffing with them. ;D
H.
Quote from: Pengy on November 29, 2012, 02:27:23 PM
EMUs are not dirty, smelly, oily pollutions machines -
but the power stations that make the sparkley go juice are..... :hmmm:
and and dont stop me now im on a roll here, emu's are glorified steam trains.... as the electrikery is made by steam turbines at the power station (usually, ok might be some wind these days or heaven forbid waves)..... ;)
Quote from: AndyGif on November 29, 2012, 02:45:43 PM
Quote from: Pengy on November 29, 2012, 02:27:23 PM
EMUs are not dirty, smelly, oily pollutions machines -
but the power stations that make the sparkley go juice are.....
and and dont stop me now im on a roll here, emu's are glorified steam trains.... as the electrikery is made by steam turbines at the power station (usually, ok might be some wind these days or heaven forbid waves).....
Andy,
Your starting to sound desparate here...
I am sure that the production of steam in a Power Station is far more efficient and cleaner than them old Kettles.
I'm with Pengy with the "Worms of many colours" have turned - and the sparky, arcy bit always adds drama... That remainds me - I must get one of those arcing lighting units 8)....
Electricery will take over the world.....
"What shall we do today Pengy?" "Same as yesterday GreyBeema - World domination".... :laugh3:
Quote from: AndyGif on November 29, 2012, 02:45:43 PM
emu's are glorified steam trains....
If they are how comes so many steamy fans eschew them?
Quote from: AndyGif on November 29, 2012, 02:45:43 PM
the electrikery is made by steam turbines at the power station (usually, ok might be some wind these days or heaven forbid waves).....
Most power stations use cleaner burning and more efficient gas these days (remember 'the dash for gas' at the end of the last millennium), none of that mucky dirty coal, and some are even nuclear or even biomass fuel . . . :goggleeyes: 8)
H.
Quote from: H on November 29, 2012, 03:26:14 PM
Most power stations use cleaner burning and more efficient gas these days (remember 'the dash for gas' at the end of the last millennium), none of that mucky dirty coal, and some are even nuclear or even biomass fuel . . . :goggleeyes: 8)
H.
might be gas powered but they still just boil the water with it.....
to ride a worm of many colours, do you have to know the ways of the Fremen, own a still suit and know how to use a thumper (no, not a class 205/207).
worm sign, worm sign, let the spice flow.......
Quote from: Greybeema on November 29, 2012, 03:13:00 PM
I'm with Pengy with the "Worms of many colours" have turned - and the sparky, arcy bit always adds drama... That remainds me - I must get one of those arcing lighting units 8)....
Electricery will take over the world.....
"What shall we do today Pengy?" "Same as yesterday GreyBeema - World domination".... :laugh3:
I love the sparky, arcy bits too!
Quote from: Pengy on November 29, 2012, 04:05:16 PM
I love the sparky, arcy bits too!
The idea of trying to model the sparky bits (above or below) gives me a bit of the heebie-jeebies though...
Quote from: AndyGif on November 29, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
to ride a worm of many colours, do you have to know the ways of the Fremen, own a still suit and know how to use a thumper (no, not a class 205/207).
worm sign, worm sign, let the spice flow.......
Going off the topic, but it's nice to have another Dune 'addict' on the forum - a trilogy that became 6 books. :thumbsup:
I liked the first 3 books, but struggled after that. A good idea, dragged out a bit - like Robert Jordan in that respect - one novel 12 books.
Steam may be coming back any way. There are some steam additions to DMUs being trialled that use the waste engine heat to extract more power and increase efficiency
Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 29, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
Steam may be coming back any way. There are some steam additions to DMUs being trialled that use the waste engine heat to extract more power and increase efficiency
Is that the equivilent to injecting water into aero engines to boost power? Pratt & Witney did it with their R2800 engine..
http://www.voith.com/en/products-services/power-transmission/waste-heat-recovery-10360.html (http://www.voith.com/en/products-services/power-transmission/waste-heat-recovery-10360.html)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: EMU Trains ??? ??? ??? ??? they closely resemble trams not trains :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: some people get screwed up with their ideas :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:
Quote from: oldrailbug on November 29, 2012, 08:03:39 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: EMU Trains ??? ??? ??? ??? they closely resemble trams not trains :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: some people get screwed up with their ideas :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:
You can have steam trams too !
Quote from: newportnobby on November 29, 2012, 06:16:13 PM
Going off the topic, but it's nice to have another Dune 'addict' on the forum - a trilogy that became 6 books. :thumbsup:
Or eight. I still haven't read the last two not-Frank-but-from-his-notes ones, in the hope that it will make the whole thing make any sense what so ever...
I personally don't think Steam layouts will ever die out. Look at the Recent layout 'Elvinley'by Ian from this very forum for example, an absolute masterpiece layout!
Also manufacturers produce Steam in quantity still. If steam layouts were dying, I would think steam era models would not be produced still. There is still a demand for them.
I run a modern image layout, however I always have a steam special or two on the go...... My latest is Flying Scotsman. :thankyousign:
I agree with Owl, I think there is as much chance of steam layouts dying out as there is me flying to Mars.
If you ask a little kid to pretend he is a train he/she will go chuff chuff make whoo whoo sounds and move their arms like a steam train, I have yet to find a child that goes Brrmm Brmm and make honking sounds like a diesel, why would they kids use their imagination, I guess there just isn't anything to imagine with diesels :claphappy:
While kids have Thomas, James and the crew to watch on DVDs kids will remember steam far more than diesel, as a matter of fact when my 21 year old Grandson was a little kid he used to cry when that confounded Diesel made an appearance in Thomas the Tank episodes, frankly I don't blame him Diesel was just a lousy excuse for a locomotive :veryangry:
ORB is right. Steam won't die out. This means Steam Layouts will live on also.
Look at stuff like Thomas and films like Polar Express. All feature steam but done for kids..........
Quote from: OwL on November 29, 2012, 11:07:16 PM
ORB is right. Steam won't die out. This means Steam Layouts will live on also.
Look at stuff like Thomas and films like Polar Express. All feature steam but done for kids..........
That is very true. I overheard a young child saying to her Mum "There's a choo-choo, there's a choo-choo" as a Desiro glided into the station.
Any sort of train, however it is powered is better than a Bus!
:P
How about N gauge live steam - that would be a real steam layout .
Quote from: Agrippa on November 30, 2012, 09:27:03 AM
How about N gauge live steam - that would be a real steam layout .
That is the real challenge to steam (and even diesel) aficionados - trying to model the emissions if you are aiming for a prototypical railway. With electric, I guess it is the sparky, arcy stuff that this the challenge if a winter layout is planned. Frosty day today but not quite icy enough for 3rd rail pyrotechnics yet!
Quote from: Agrippa on November 30, 2012, 09:27:03 AM
How about N gauge live steam - that would be a real steam layout .
Nice idea - but the scale is totally against it, sadly.
Just think how tiny a steam pipe will be in N - and then factor in the thickness. Not a lot of room left ... :hmmm:
A shame, as I'd buy it !
Quote from: PLD on November 30, 2012, 08:35:09 AM
Any sort of train, however it is powered is better than a Bus!
:P
Definitely.
I know this is a bit off-topic but the Council decided that, rather than put a light railway/tram link on the disused line between Gosport and Fareham, they would turn the track into a bus route.
There were a lot of calls for a tram/light railway as the main route in and out of Gosport gets choked with traffic.
The bus route is not getting the amount of usage they expected. Many people that I know that live in the area don't like travelling by bus so they continue to use their cars but would have used a tram.
And to think, this used to be the main train route between the IOW and London - as used by Queen Victoria. She would not have used a bus!
And to think, this used to be the main train route between the IOW and London - as used by Queen Victoria. She would not have used a bus!
[/quote]
She would not have been amused!!!
Quote from: MikeDunn on November 30, 2012, 11:05:39 AM
Quote from: Agrippa on November 30, 2012, 09:27:03 AM
How about N gauge live steam - that would be a real steam layout .
Nice idea - but the scale is totally against it, sadly.
But it's been done.
H.
Tell me more ... ?
A few months ago there was a live steam OO9 loco on eBay (not N, strictly speaking, but the same gauge and no bigger than some N gauge steam locos) - I think it was a German Stainz 0-6-0. Don't think it sold as it was a non-runner and the starting bid was around £500! The seller included a very detailed description of how he built it and why it no longer steams - basically, it ran OK when first built but after a few runs the leakage around the cylinders/pistons was too much for the loco's miniscule boiler and burner to cope with, so it couldn't raise enough steam pressure (it would still run on compressed air).
Seems to me like the best method might have been to have the boiler and burner in a wagon/coach with flexible steam pipes connected to the loco. This would allow a much larger capacity as well as reducing the heat-sink effect.
edit: Just found the eBay link - www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-009-K3-Live-Steam-2-Cylinder-HOe-Stainz-Type-Locomotive-Loco-Runs-on-Air-/221149278894 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-009-K3-Live-Steam-2-Cylinder-HOe-Stainz-Type-Locomotive-Loco-Runs-on-Air-/221149278894) . Unfortunately all the closeup photos are gone but the description makes an interesting read!
As you say - an interesting read. But so many issues with it ... :worried:
I model the 1950s 'transition' era from steam to diesel so can justifiably run both on my layout. I don't see a model demise of steam, although I fully understand the younger generation of modellers being more interested in diesels/electrics/DMUs/EMUs. However this is a generalisation: there will be plenty of older modellers running non-steam, and plenty of younger ones steam-outline only. The key is the actual period the modeller is interested in.
I do think N Gauge steam-outline locos still don't run quite as sweetly as the rest - possibly something to do with the necessary 'slop' in the connecting rods, etc., and they do need a bit more careful handling. Info on 'modern image' naturally tends to be easier to access if you want to be faithful to a real loco, get the correct stock behind it and the right atmosphere.
The biggest problem for steam-outline, in my opinion, is the lack of pre-1948 models of rolling stock without repainting/modification. However the market size in the UK for that period is probably small and likely to naturally decline further.
The biggest issue long-term, though, seems to be how to maintain and even increase the modelling base in the UK irrespective of whether you model steam-outline or not: without a decent market size the manufacturers won't produce what we want.
Quote from: BlythStationLad on December 01, 2012, 06:45:03 AM
The biggest issue long-term, though, seems to be how to maintain and even increase the modelling base in the UK irrespective of whether you model steam-outline or not: without a decent market size the manufacturers won't produce what we want.
This is a very good point. I think that the UK manufacturers are missing a trick in the way they advertise and perhaps they should look at what the Japanese are doing in this respect. Houses in the UK seem to be getting smaller so layouts need to be smaller and yet still remain user friendly and robust. Arguably, N is the way to do it but the manufacturers don't seem to have picked up on this.
So we need to ensure that all N gauge layouts do not become a dying breed (not just the steamers)
The thought of British outline manufacturers becoming the same as Australian manufacturers sends a shiver down my spine.
Obviously Australia with a population of only 21 Million has a much smaller model railway following than The UK, what seems to be normal here is for a manufacturer to make an announcement that they are building a new model XYZ but will only have 1.000 units available, they expect payment up front and in some cases buyers have to wait up to 3 years for the product to be released.
I think this method of trading puts many modellers off plus the fact that some models are quite unreliable.
I would happily model Aussie if it were not so expensive and as far as Aussie N gauge that is very close to being a non starter.
Most Aussie modellers that model Australian HO run Diesel far more than steam, a 25 year old Lima 38 Class steam loco that sold for $100 when new still fetches many hundreds off dollars if in good nick and are still under demand.
I must admit, I was initially wanting to exclusively run steam on my YVRR, however, I have pretty much decided to stretch reality a little to include some diesels. Purely for reliabilty and running time tbh.
I would however like to find some suitable locos to butcher to make the iconic 4-4-0`s that ran on the Yosemite line. (See wanted section ;) )
Whilst I am a confirmed steam enthusiast I was brought up on the Southern Region when passenger trains were a mixture of green EMU's and steam locos hauling green coaches. I lost interest in the 60's when 'uncomfortable and gawdy coloured plastic worms' became the vogue and it hasn't got any better with sectorisation or privatisation.
For this reason I model the early 60's when steam was still in the forefront and EMU's had whistles and green ends.
Dodger
Quote from: dodger on December 01, 2012, 02:53:08 PM
I was brought up on the Southern Region when passenger trains were a mixture of green EMU's and steam locos hauling green coaches. I lost interest in the 60's when 'uncomfortable and gawdy coloured plastic . . . became the vogue
Eh, what was gaudy and plastic in the 60s? Nowt that I remember. Most stuff was dull, scruffy and boring then - the kettles were all black, dirty and unkempt. Even blue/grey has yet to take hold. Colourfull stuff didn't really start to take off until sectorisation in the 80s and 'plastic' MUs had yet to be introduced. The last of the solid 'non plastic' stuff didn't go until 2005/6.
H.
Quote from: H on December 01, 2012, 06:13:48 PM
Eh, what was gaudy and plastic in the 60s? Nowt that I remember. Most stuff was dull, scruffy and boring then - the kettles were all black, dirty and unkempt. Even blue/grey has yet to take hold. Colourfull stuff didn't really start to take off until sectorisation in the 80s and 'plastic' MUs had yet to be introduced. The last of the solid 'non plastic' stuff didn't go until 2005/6.
H.
There was a typo it should have been 70's when the hideous CIG's came out in Blue & Grey.
Not sure what you mean by solid not plastic stuff lasting until 2005/6 as all the decent emu's had either been scrapped long before then or refurbished and painted in gaudy colours.
How can the 60's be boring when the good old prewar emu's were still running in green livery.
Dodger
Quote from: dodger on December 01, 2012, 09:33:22 PM
Not sure what you mean by solid not plastic stuff lasting until 2005/6 as all the decent emu's had either been scrapped long before then or refurbished and painted in gaudy colours.
Blue and grey can hardly be considered hideous and anyway had it's roots from 1964 (in the 60s).
The term 'plastic' used by enthusiasts generally refers to modern third generation MUs like Desiros, Electrostars and Junipers. Mk1 based MUs like (CEPs, CIGs, VEPs, EPBs, etc) are definately NOT considered 'plastic', were 'decent' and basically lasted until 2005/6. They didn't carry 'gaudy' liveries although were more enlivened than the dull and boring all green jobbies.
H.
Quote from: H on December 01, 2012, 09:46:44 PM
The term 'plastic' used by enthusiasts generally refers to modern third generation MUs like Desiros, Electrostars and Junipers. Mk1 based MUs like (CEPs, CIGs, VEPs, EPBs, etc) are definately NOT considered 'plastic', were 'decent' and basically lasted until 2005/6. They didn't carry 'gaudy' liveries although were more enlivened than the dull and boring all green jobbies.
H.
Well I prefer green EMU's and consider alot of Mk1's to be plastic due to the matierials used.
Dodger
Theres 2 locos i crave from the oz land, 3801 and r761, but i cant afford to pay 600ad for them...
Quote from: H on December 01, 2012, 09:46:44 PM
Blue and grey can hardly be considered hideous
Sorry H - I disagree totally ...
That's all we had - ugly, tatty, dirty, smelly blue & greys ... and the coaching stock wasn't any better either !!! :laugh3:
If this discussion proves anything it is that beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.
Good taste on the other hand is in the glass of the beer holder. :beers:
Quote from: Karhedron on December 02, 2012, 03:22:24 PM
If this discussion proves anything it is that beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.
Good taste on the other hand is in the glass of the beer holder. :beers:
This is very true.
We've had a good old bit of banter going off topic and discussing diesels and electrics and even buses (I know, I've gone :offtopicsign: too). So can we now get back to steam layouts? :pleasesign:
Quote from: Pengy on December 02, 2012, 03:31:22 PM
So can we now get back to steam layouts? :pleasesign:
Never, never I tell you :P :P
;D
Quote from: Lawrence on December 02, 2012, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: Pengy on December 02, 2012, 03:31:22 PM
So can we now get back to steam layouts? :pleasesign:
Never, never I tell you :P :P
;D
I can't believe I wrote that either, Lawrence :P
Quote from: MikeDunn on December 02, 2012, 09:57:07 AM
That's all we had - ugly, tatty, dirty, smelly blue & greys ... and the coaching stock wasn't any better either
. . . although never as dirty, smelly and nasty as kettles. :P
But in all seriousness - steam era layouts aren't a dying breed; they may be declining a little in popularity as time swings in favour of modern traction (as more and more new trains are developed and made increasing the potential of modelling D&E), but there will always be someone prepared to kick the dying embers over and try and breathe it back to life. And I guess as the existance of kettles as the norm fades further in to the past and memory there will be those who remember them a little bit more fancifully and not quite as they really were. It's only natural.
Long may it all be modelled in N.
H.
I stood on platform 1 at Keynsham Station yesterday (sat 1st Dec) and watched Tornado fly through with the Cathedrals Express'. There we're loads of people there of all ages, all taking photos or vids - Steam will always be popular and whilst there aren't many steam layouts at the moment in 6 months time it could be the other way round !
I remember a couple of years ago, people were moaning that there were too many GWR branch line layouts.... :confused1:
:camera: please :)
Marty
Sorry it's a little fuzzy, i've not got used to my new camera yet...
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee442/djmikeymike2011/DSCF0071-1.jpg)
The 'Thank You' tab seems to have taken a walk somewhere!
So, nice photo.
Thanks Mike nice pic of her in blue :thumbsup:. Hopefully, thanks to people like those behind the Tornado project, steam will never die :D
Marty
Thank you tab restored :thumbsup:
Nice photo. Blue doesn't look right to me but we are all different so well done to the Tornado boys.
I have to admit I like it in blue. A lot of A1s were in that colour when first built.
OK - so I may be an anachronism, but I have 5 more items on pre-order and, surprise, they are all steamers :D
Some steamers may not be what they seem!
In doing some light research for something else, I came across the fact that some Castle Class loco's were actually Oil Burners. Several ran out from Laura Shed from 1947 having been converted from coal.
Apparently they were easy to spot..... they were always nice and clean while those not converted were always dirty, covered in soot! :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: Jack9465 on December 02, 2012, 09:32:53 PM
Some steamers may not be what they seem!
In doing some light research for something else, I came across the fact that some Castle Class loco's were actually Oil Burners. Several ran out from Laura Shed from 1947 having been converted from coal.
Apparently they were easy to spot..... they were always nice and clean while those not converted were always dirty, covered in soot! :smiley-laughing:
Phew :D :D thankfully they converted GWR locos back to coal burners very soon afterwards, seems the imported oil bill was so high the authorities nearly fell over when they got the bill, besides coal supply got back into close to full swing :thumbsup:
Quote from: newportnobby on December 02, 2012, 09:20:15 PM
OK - so I may be an anachronism
:o :o I though you were a Libra!
;D
Quote from: oldrailbug on December 02, 2012, 09:46:53 PM
Quote from: Jack9465 on December 02, 2012, 09:32:53 PM
Some steamers may not be what they seem!
In doing some light research for something else, I came across the fact that some Castle Class loco's were actually Oil Burners. Several ran out from Laura Shed from 1947 having been converted from coal.
Apparently they were easy to spot..... they were always nice and clean while those not converted were always dirty, covered in soot! :smiley-laughing:
Phew :D :D thankfully they converted GWR locos back to coal burners very soon afterwards, seems the imported oil bill was so high the authorities nearly fell over when they got the bill, besides coal supply got back into close to full swing :thumbsup:
That's the bit I left out ;D (cat amongst the pigeons and all that :D) They were all reverted back by the end of 1948.
Quote from: Karhedron on December 02, 2012, 03:22:24 PM
Good taste on the other hand is in the glass of the beer holder. :beers:
Now that's a statement I can wholeheartedly support (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink009.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)