I have mixed feelings about electric cars, but this one has lots of optional extras, including a flame thrower! Probably useful for dealing with cyclists and pedestrians. Or maybe it's a publicity thing for the next Bond movie?
:D
https://mobile.twitter.com/marycmccormack/status/1007831286176571394
Of course electric cars are the future. I meant to say: what's the alternative?
Naturally the fact the husband of celebrity had his car explode will cause any amount of press coverage. There's nothing happening anywhere else on the planet worth writing about, so bored journalists have to fill those column inches with this sort of thing.
Also bear in mind that who knows how many petrol and diesel cars failed today, but because that happens all the time, nobody will write that up. Kind of like the way journalists desperately look for people who died because of nuclear power stations, while ignoring the hundreds who die in coal mines and the thousands if not millions killed by the particulates and other pollution produced by coal-burning power stations.
Cheers, NeMo
At the moment the technology for electric cars just isn't there. In my current car and can go and spend a weekend with my sister 275 miles away and come back without filling up. Most electric cars available today would need to stop for an overnight charge just to do 275miles one way. When electric cars are capable of travelling 500 miles on one charge they will become a viable means of transport. Also, when taking into account the cost of either renting batteries or replacing them after about five years my current car costs far less per mile to run than an electric. I expect electric cars will continue to improve but they have some way to go.
Hydrogen is also a possibility. BMW were successfully running modified internal combustion engines on test with hydrogen and a number of Japanese companies are working on hydrogen cell cars. This is another possible alternative but nobody has worked out how to make hydrogen efficiently. Having said that we haven't got sufficient electricity generation resources to charge significant numbers of electric cars in the UK. It will take at least twenty years before we have sufficient generation capacity.
Electric cars can be dangerous. One guy near me has been run over by the same electric car twice because he didn't hear it coming twice!
I would love to see an annual Lands End to John O'Groats electric car run for production cars only. The time taken for the run will reduce dramatically as technology improves. It will also help us to see when they become a viable alternative.
Mr Clarkson on Top Gear summed it up for me on electric cars when he pointed out about the people that end up with life long problems from mining nickel for the batteries (or whatever metal is used these days), many of the countries it comes from don't have the H&S standards we have, not to say getting oil for petrol or the chemical plants are any safer!!!
I'll still with my trusty combustion engine for now
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 17, 2018, 11:49:10 PM
Electric cars can be dangerous. One guy near me has been run over by the same electric car twice because he didn't hear it coming twice!
Some electrics have a noise maker to alert such blind or vision-impaired people to their presence.
CFJ
Another good alternative are methane ga powered cars.
Methane gas... nowadays it is quite easy, cheap and problemless producable from :censored: (changed by forum).
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 17, 2018, 11:49:10 PM
At the moment the technology for electric cars just isn't there. In my current car and can go and spend a weekend with my sister 275 miles away and come back without filling up. Most electric cars available today would need to stop for an overnight charge just to do 275miles one way. When electric cars are capable of travelling 500 miles on one charge they will become a viable means of transport.
For you. The number of electric and hybrid vehicles on the roads suggests the technology clearly is there, just not ideally suited to regular 550 mile journeys. The proportion of the population who make such journeys regularly is tiny. And assuming your sister has electricity you only need a range of 275 miles for an electric car to work.
As for getting run over because they don't make noise, does he also regularly get hit by cyclists?
Ethical issues around the impact of battery production versus just burning fossil fuels are certainly interesting and were always cited as the 'downfall' of the Prius. It's not something I've seen as much since the popularity expanded.
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2018, 07:58:07 AM
As for getting run over because they don't make noise, does he also regularly get hit by cyclists?
To prevent such occurances, it will be a requirement for all cyclists and electric cars to have a playing card pegged to wheel supports and touching spokes or similar to produce an audible sound.
I was thinking that drivers be mandated to drive with all windows down making car noises as loudly as possible, to legislate for pedestrians not paying attention.
I must say I'd quite like a Tesla, or a BMW i8.
Going off at a slight tangent. Will technology ever be good enough for long distance electric powered lorries? I know some companies are working on this but developing a means of pulling say 40 tons 500 miles every day is a considerable challenge. Might it be that our railways will become essential for long distance freight again? Might we see big railway freight hubs with electric trucks just being used for fairly local work?
Spare a thought for the tradesman.
I use a medium wheelbase, medium roof Mercedes Sprinter for my property maintenance business. There is currently no alternative to diesel. When a suitable alternative does become available, it'll be decades before the average tradesman will be able to afford one. The diesel ban in 2040 (I think that's correct) is likely to drive a large proportion of small tradesmen out of business.
???
Not sure that'll happen. We're heavily reliant on small vehicles delivering stuff or carrying out tasks, like property maintenance, there will have to be a viable alternative, or grants or something.
Ironically the biggest lorries are those which are easiest to replace - for example by using rail more extensively. It's the final bit of the journey where you will have to have road vehicles.
The main problem is where does the electricity come from to charge them, Fossil fuel fired power station are closing and nuclear has the problem of disposing of the spent fuel safely. The main problem with wind and solar power is that it is not available all of the time, a windless night in winter and neither work when they are needed most. Until somebody comes up with a cheap method of storing electricity they have their drawbacks and some solar farms are being built on agricultural land leading to more food imports. With an ever expanding population the need for domestic electricity increases so we need to import electricity from Europe as our power generating capacity diminishes.
As for the cars themselves some have as little as a 70 mile range and need 14 hours to recharge, others are much better, at the moment none are capable of driving from London to Glasgow without recharging. Does the advent of electric cars mean that every parking bay in a motorway service area will have to have a charging point, which incidently need an app on a smart phone to work? Many people park their cars in the street overnight so how do they charge the car, cables across the pavements, what happens if they cannot park directly infront of their property?
My personal feelings is that there is a lot of hype for electric vehicles by marketing people and enviromentalists who don't understand the full consequences of electric cars or ignore them to get their view over. In my opinion there is a lot more research and developement to be done before they are the equal to fossil fuelled cars.
Geoff
.
Geoff makes some good points. The infrastructure investment required to support a change to electric vehicles is more massive than anything seen to date in the history of the UK.
The electricity generating companies are currently investing in technology to store huge amounts of electricity in batteries to help even out the problems of generating from wind and sun.
The government 'Road to Zero' plan intends to ban sales of new diesel and petrol vehicles by 2040.
Shame I won't be around to see the ensuing chaos. I bet there'll be bumper sales of such vehicles in 2039 :D
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 18, 2018, 09:11:38 AM
Going off at a slight tangent. Will technology ever be good enough for long distance electric powered lorries? I know some companies are working on this but developing a means of pulling say 40 tons 500 miles every day is a considerable challenge. Might it be that our railways will become essential for long distance freight again? Might we see big railway freight hubs with electric trucks just being used for fairly local work?
Close...
https://eforce.ch/index.html (unfortunately in german only)
factsheet https://eforce.ch/uploads/1/1/7/1/117106312/e44_fact_sheet_e.pdf (english)
Range: 350km (220 odd miles)
Weight: overall: 44t - 9t truck...
Target environment: city delivery (which makes most sense. Overland should be handled by railway and then the fine distribution == close range by truck)
Due to Swiss regulation (electric truck pays no road pricing) it is calcluated that after 50'000 km you are in the win-zone (financially). We have some of them running around here: a dream from a pedestrian point of view: no noise, no diesel perfume ...
It is up to road politics to stop the long distance trucking business. This must become railroad business again. Road pricing has to regulate that.
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 18, 2018, 09:11:38 AM
Going off at a slight tangent. Will technology ever be good enough for long distance electric powered lorries? I know some companies are working on this but developing a means of pulling say 40 tons 500 miles every day is a considerable challenge. Might it be that our railways will become essential for long distance freight again? Might we see big railway freight hubs with electric trucks just being used for fairly local work?
The problem would be the gross weight of the vehicle, to carry 30 tons the vehicle would weigh around 10 tons if it had a diesel engine giving a gross weight of 40 tons add to this the not inconsiderable weight of the batteries required and the road infastucture would not cope without substantial upgrading.
Geoff
Stick to your bike plan, Mick. ;)
I don't think anyone's ever suggested they're the equal (yet) of ICE cars, but there's the eco friendly element to it. Plenty of people are happy to drive diesels, not one can now say they didn't know how polluting they are, so there's definitely the "slightly smug at being green" factor. Then again, look at Chris's example that he won't consider electric because it won't do a 550 mile round trip, and now you've said that you can't drive from London to Glasgow without recharging.
Electric cars do tend to elicit some really weird justifications. Do you regularly drive from London to Glasgow? I know I don't. I maybe do one journey a year of more than 200 miles in one stint where I'd have to make alternative plans if I had an electric car. Normally I'm driving somewhere and leaving the car where it could be charged, or coming home.
With escalating running costs I'd start to consider hybrids and electric cars far more. I see the former as the more viable option FWIW, battery with small supplementary petrol engine is far more versatile than pure electric and goes some way to assuage the "but I have to drive to Orkney" set. Whilst I love my petrol car, I have looked at the hybrid equivalent, personally for me it's too expensive currently and the performance isn't nearly as good as my petrol variant, but the range wasn't a decisive factor in this.
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2018, 09:46:26 AM
I don't think anyone's ever suggested they're the equal (yet) of ICE cars, but there's the eco friendly element to it. Plenty of people are happy to drive diesels, not one can now say they didn't know how polluting they are, so there's definitely the "slightly smug at being green" factor. Then again, look at Chris's example that he won't consider electric because it won't do a 550 mile round trip, and now you've said that you can't drive from London to Glasgow without recharging.
Electric cars do tend to elicit some really weird justifications. Do you regularly drive from London to Glasgow? I know I don't. I maybe do one journey a year of more than 200 miles in one stint where I'd have to make alternative plans if I had an electric car. Normally I'm driving somewhere and leaving the car where it could be charged, or coming home.
With escalating running costs I'd start to consider hybrids and electric cars far more. I see the former as the more viable option FWIW, battery with small supplementary petrol engine is far more versatile than pure electric and goes some way to assuage the "but I have to drive to Orkney" set. Whilst I love my petrol car, I have looked at the hybrid equivalent, personally for me it's too expensive currently and the performance isn't nearly as good as my petrol variant, but the range wasn't a decisive factor in this.
I own a diesel car because the government of the day (2000s) said they were less poluting than petrol and Gordon Brown when Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that diesel would always be 10p a litre cheaper than petrol!!!!!!. That is why since the turn of this century there has been a boom in the sale of diesel cars by people acting on government advice.
Geoff
Quote from: Bealman on June 18, 2018, 09:45:51 AM
Stick to your bike plan, Mick. ;)
In 2040 I'll be 87, George (assuming I'm still on the planet)
I might have an electric zimmer frame at best :uneasy:
Aren't current diesel EU6 cars pretty clean?
Although it was a test on his terms I well remember Clarkson getting better fuel economy from a BMW M3 than he did from a Prius.
Quote from: geoffc on June 18, 2018, 09:55:22 AM
That is why since the turn of this century there has been a boom in the sale of diesel cars by people acting on government advice.
Geoff
I know, and cheaper VED rates, which still preside etc, but ultimately it's an emotive subject and people are selfish, how many are still driving the diesel they bought in 2000 because Gordon Brown told them to? They
want to be able to drive from London to Glasgow without filling up because that's what they've become accustomed to. Or at least they want to think they can, and be seeing that the range of electric cars is poor they tell themselves "oh I couldn't possibly have an electric car, the range is terrible", whilst in reality the majority of people could with very little adjustment to their daily lives.
I went from a diesel to a petrol car, and got used to filling up every 380-400 miles rather than every 550-600, but I don't do huge mileages and my most common journeys are either 25 miles where I leave my car all day and cycle to work, or 20 mile round trip to drop my son off at nursery. I know, categorically, I could make do with an electric car, but like I said, currently I don't really want to!
QuoteAlthough it was a test on his terms I well remember Clarkson getting better fuel economy from a BMW M3 than he did from a Prius.
Yep, think it was an M3, they ragged a Prius around the track and followed it around in the BMW which clearly didn't even break a sweat, and the Prius got a higher fuel consumption. Obviously that's a daft, if amusing, example though, and in line with the "but I want to drive to Land's End in one go" troop.
I had a number of electric cars back in the 1960's that were very fuel efficient and a friend and I ran two almost continuously for over 15 hours, with just a couple of breaks for drinks, food, etc.
To emulate this in the modern world, all the Government need to do is agree to put twin strips of metal either side of a groove in all the track roads and connect the whole lot to the mains.
Simples. With a tiny bit of up-scaling of course.
;)
The other issue with battery powered cars is the recharging time. Not a problem if you can wait a few hours to fill up. The local news did an item on recharging points in Birmingham and found that lots of them were either out of order or occupied when they went round in their electric car.
Quote from: daffy on June 18, 2018, 10:28:33 AM
I had a number of electric cars back in the 1960's that were very fuel efficient and a friend and I ran two almost continuously for over 15 hours, with just a couple of breaks for drinks, food, etc.
To emulate this in the modern world, all the Government need to do is agree to put twin strips of metal either side of a groove in all the track roads and connect the whole lot to the mains.
Simples. With a tiny bit of up-scaling of course.
;)
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Quote from: Malc on June 18, 2018, 10:39:05 AM
The other issue with battery powered cars is the recharging time. Not a problem if you can wait a few hours to fill up. The local news did an item on recharging points in Birmingham and found that lots of them were either out of order or occupied when they went round in their electric car.
Yep, the infrastructure certainly needs to be there for it to be a genuinely viable alternative. Tesla Supercharging stations look good, 50% charge in 20 minutes and full charge in 75 minutes. I don't know if they've open sourced the technology so other brands can use it.
You're never going to reach everyone - blocks of flats, and even terraced houses without drives will always make it very very difficult to charge cars, but it will improve, I'm sure of it.
Well I do travel from the east coast of Norfolk to Scotland regularly to vist my immediate family, though not as much as when I was a field service engineer doing 50,000mile a year. I need a car that can do 400miles in a day at the end of it's battery life, not just at the beginning.
Come to that London is about 90 miles each way once a year. And if I wish to visit more relatives in the West country we are back in the 300 mile plus range.
The only way I can see this achieved is a standardised swap out battery system..
i won't lie I do see the advantages in electric cars in the long run, but just now there is not the infrastructure there to make it worth while for myself.
With current technology and the limitations it's very much a horses for courses scenario, electric cars for urban driving such as a commute into work makes perfect sense (although public transport is an option - I will leave that one there as I know its could lead down the rabbit hole), from what i understand if registered you get an exemption on the London congestion zone charges if it's an electric which been honest I can see the same scheme happening in most cities eventually.
For me while I don't currently have a car (not cost effective with been away so much) my last 2 cars were diesels, why? Because the journeys I was doing were at least 200 miles a time (Salisbury - Manchester or Manchester to Islay) and where as I had previously had a Petrol before in a diesel I could do a Salisbury - Manchester return trip on a single tank of Diesel where as it would be a tank each way on petrol and that's with the prices been broadly the same for each fuel so twice the fuel means twice the cost and well more pollution from me running a petrol car.
Will electrics become main stream and we all have to get over it, to right and I will happily embrace it when they are able to do what I need them to do, and the technologies are becoming more available, the single best idea I have seen been trialled is in Holland IIRC.
They are using wireless charging technology, but its built into the road so whilst you are on the road with this tech in you are running of the power supplied from the road and not batteries so when you come off the road you still have your entire battery range to get you where you want to go.
They ran a test car for 2 weeks none stop to get an idea of cost efficiency and environmental impact (Using a gas powered power station as the supply point) and found it cost 1/8th of what a petrol would cost and around 1/20th of the pollution, so personally it looks like one of the better ideas currently been looked at for a long term solution, however it does have it set backs like anything.
While some cars are already set up for the wirelesss charging system many aren't and those that are would need some re configuring to work as described, and then there is the cost of setting up such a system it's not exactly cheap however if done on a mass scale the price would drop, but there has to be the large scale need for it to be truly worth it which is where getting manufactures and the powers that be on board with the concept comes into play.
When questioned on how it would be paid for they actually had a very simple ideas which make sense, the cars would be data linked in so you would be charged by your usage so while maybe not the 1/8th probably more to pay for the system,your power usage and its upkeep. But working on even paying 1/2th of what we pay for fuel now it would save on road tax and general fuel costs, and for foreign drivers of such cars a pay as you go set up like we have for mobile phones.
They were very honest when asked about installing it on every road in a country and said it wasn't worthwhile doing that, but on major routes such as motorways and A roads (possibly some B roads) it would be worth while doing it and while battery technology comes on it would mean that cars would be able to get almost anywhere without needing to stop at services for charging or people been caught powerless.
That's where personally I see electric cars coming into their own if the powers that been are willing to back it, and if so I will happily say sign me up as it will meet my needs and the needs of 99% of people, save us some money on fuel and allow us to keep that bit of freedom without worrying is there a charging point en route or where will I have to stop and charge for the night.
Just thought I'd insert a little personal experience into this debate.
We have owned an electric car for just over two years (a Citroen C-Zero, a rebadged Mitsubishi m-iEV). It has a nominal range of 93 miles. In fact, under normal circumstances, we achieve in the high 60s to low 70s on a full charge. By "full charge", I mean use from full to the point when "remaining range" on the trip computer is close to zero. My understanding is that there is still hidden charge left at that point, and the car enters a "turtle mode", which suppresses non-essential functions and limits performance. I don't intend to investigate that mode, since I don't want to be brought home on a flat bed truck.
I suppose it's perhaps possible that if we cut down weight by stripping out all the passenger seats and extraneous trimmings and had the car driven optimally by a stark naked size zero model across the salt flats of Utah, it might achieve 93 miles, but in the real world, and with my hulking frame, no chance. 75 miles is the most we have managed to record. Range is slightly weather dependent, most obviously if you have to use heating or aircon, but the battery also performs noticeably better in warm weather.
Charging is not as bad a problem as sometimes portrayed. To charge it fully from "empty" takes about seven or eight hours, but it is effectively full after around five, and usable for short trips much, much sooner. That's from the domestic mains supply. Fast charging at a motorway services will provide an 80% charge in around half an hour. You just need to be aware of what you have left and what you need. Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance, as any pilot here will know.
We love it. We use it for all our local driving. It's easy to drive, convenient to park, comfortable and quiet. Performance is excellent. I especially enjoy out accelerating a stroppy Audi driver from the lights... (Remember the Beep Beep bubble car song???) It's also very cheap. From domestic sources, the electricity costs around 2p/mile, compared with our diesel car where fuel is currently around 15p/mile in urban driving. If and when the battery dies, I suspect we'll have to scrap the car, but we bought it second hand cheaply and it will likely have paid for itself in fuel, VED and servicing savings. And we'll have had fun. And a certain green smugness. (Yes, I know about the batteries, etc.)
As I said, we still have a diesel car, and we use that for long-distance driving. The furthest I've taken the EV is to near Cardiff, a one way of about 48 miles. The charging network on the motorways is perfectly adequate for big trips, but you need to plan, and your average speed will drop to something around 30-40 mph because of the charging stops. As Ecotricity have now priced motorway recharges similarly to fossil fuel (they were free) that's a mug's game if you have access to an ICE car. Although we may go up to our son's in Rugby as a bit of an adventure... There are apps that tell you where charging points are, and whether they are in use or out of service. Since the price went up, I've noticed they are usually vacant, as hybrid owners don't bother with them any more.
However, going forward, if the government wants to drive full adoption, which is the stated aim, then somebody needs to pull their finger out and do something about the charging infrastructure. There isn't enough of it for widespread use, or anywhere close, even if battery technology improves. We are lucky because we live in a nice leafy suburb with our own drive, so can charge at our leisure from our own resources. More generally, the country needs kerbside infrastructure and much more provision in car parks, or people in high-rises and older or town properties will be excluded. I gather some European countries (Germany?) are putting charging points in lampposts. But, knowing the UK, we have probably cabled ours with second-hand 3A twinflex...
If we live long enough to need to buy another car, my first choice would definitely be another full electric vehicle. I'd ideally like a range in the 150-200 zone, so I could do a full day's drive with only one or two stops. I rarely schedule more than about 400 miles of driving in a day, even driving down to Italy, so that would be fine. I have to take breaks in that distance anyway.
"They are using wireless charging technology, but its built into the road so whilst you are on the road with this tech in you are running of the power supplied from the road and not batteries so when you come off the road you still have your entire battery range to get you where you want to go."
I had one like that when I was kid, not wireless though, two brass strips, or copper braid, instead, ...
IIRC it was called a SCALEXTRICK ! :smiley-laughing:
Scalextric, and Nobby already made that joke, sorry! ;)
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2018, 01:31:59 PM
Scalextric, and Nobby already made that joke, sorry! ;)
apologies, must have missed that bit, mea culpa :dunce: :-[
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2018, 01:31:59 PM
Scalextric, and Nobby already made that joke, sorry! ;)
No joke. As usual, the Swedes are ahead of everyone again :) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden)
I meant the joke about Scalextric, well aware the 'electrified road' is real. Although I now see it was Daffy, not NN who made it. Apologies gents.
Quote from: Zwilnik on June 18, 2018, 01:39:04 PM
No joke. As usual, the Swedes are ahead of everyone again :) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden)
I'd seen that, but wondered how it would work in Britain where someone digs a trench across a road practically before the tarmac has set, and no-one fixes potholes until they are big enough to swallow cars...
More seriously, on the Swedish angle, I was talking to a senior Volvo exec about ten days ago and they are pursuing electric vehicle technology with a will. He was quite surprised that I was already driving one!
Quote from: Nick on June 18, 2018, 02:05:53 PM
Quote from: Zwilnik on June 18, 2018, 01:39:04 PM
No joke. As usual, the Swedes are ahead of everyone again :) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden)
I'd seen that, but wondered how it would work in Britain where someone digs a trench across a road practically before the tarmac has set, and no-one fixes potholes until they are big enough to swallow cars...
More seriously, on the Swedish angle, I was talking to a senior Volvo exec about ten days ago and they are pursuing electric vehicle technology with a will. He was quite surprised that I was already driving one!
As with solving the charging points issue (and the railways) etc. I suspect it really needs a serious case of re-nationalisation and focusing on infrastructure for businesses and consumers rather than shareholders. Joined up thinking etc.
since when did nationalisation have anything to do with joined up thinking?
Volvo have very publicly backed hybrids (and by extension EVs), haven't they said they want to only offer hybrids by 2030 or something? Considering they're comparatively late to the party compared to Nissan, Toyota, BMW, VW et al who already have a fairly cohesive range of electric and hybrid vehicles it'll be interesting to see.
I've already converted my motorboat, it now has a 10Kw 3 phase electric motor, 24 2v Lead acids. 4 solar panels, and a 4kw generator.
Battery power alone gives me a range of about 10 miles, generator on and it's hundreds of miles.. but for all the short journeys I do, Solar panels are enough.
It used to have a 1.5l BMC diesel ( a huge 35HP when new, most of which had escaped), that died...
Nationalisation, doesn't always solve things and I doubt is the answer to the future of electric cars.
Joined up thinking will come from people actually working together, so the powers that be maybe saying that is the system we are going with car makers you know the system now so make cars and trucks that will work on it!
IMO it will end up been the private companies that drive electric technology forward and make the powers that be adopt something which works for all, use the Pendolino as a great example we were never going to get tilting trains with BR the idea was scrapped, it took the privatised railways to get tilting trains and improved(ish) services.
What we need is a group of individuals (may that be companies or the powers that be) put their weight behind one of these technologies and push it until then there all we will get it numerous semi funded projects that will never have a chance of revealing their full potential, again APT-P anyone!
Quote from: The Q on June 18, 2018, 02:31:34 PM
I've already converted my motorboat, it now has a 10Kw 3 phase electric motor, 24 2v Lead acids. 4 solar panels, and a 4kw generator.
Battery power alone gives me a range of about 10 miles, generator on and it's hundreds of miles.. but for all the short journeys I do, Solar panels are enough.
It used to have a 1.5l BMC diesel ( a huge 35HP when new, most of which had escaped), that died...
so sort of like a diesel electric loco....
generator runs at it's most efficient and supplies the tractive power.....
what 'notch' do you run in :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: class37025 on June 18, 2018, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2018, 01:31:59 PM
Scalextric, and Nobby already made that joke, sorry! ;)
apologies, must have missed that bit, mea culpa :dunce: :-[
No apology required, and anyway, it was my joke, not NPN's, and the cars were running on light grey Airfix Brand track and controllers, not the other black stuff. :no:
I run a diesel, bought nearly new in 2011 (first reg. 2010) and the furore about diesel emissions was in its infancy. I'm more than happy with it, and it happily travels over 700 miles on a tank full. This is something of a bonus when driving around wildest Lincolnshire, and into the wilds of Scotland where garages can be few and far between. In fact, almost everywhere is a long way from where I live, it taking a minimum of an hours driving to reach what laughingly gets referred to as a 'fast road'.
My wife had a diesel for work, a Corsa that regularly did over 300 miles each working day and on more than a few occasions was required to do over 700 in a day. It always returned about 62 mpg.
Now if she were to be doing the same job now an electric car just would not cut the mustard. One day, maybe, but not yet. As others have said, the infrastructure just isn't there yet, and I don't see it being in place in my lifetime.
Electrics might be fine for those whose routes are short, have easy access to charging points, and don't mind the environmental impact of all those batteries when they reach their life's end (the batteries, not the drivers!) But for long distances - what a hell of a lot of folks do on our motorways every day, in lorries, vans and coaches - the day has not yet dawned.
I hope it does, and advances in tech will continue with electrics, as evidenced by the change next year for the E-Grand Prix series where races will no longer mean a car change at the mid distance point. But not everyone has the financial ability to change their current non-electric vehicle for a nice shiny new electric one, and I don't see any Government incentive large enough to allow that being promoted any time soon.
We are both pensioners now, and after many years of ill health we are not the wealthy old folks some others might think we are. Every expense is a very carefully calculated one, and though we have a budget for a replacement car (when the current one goes to the Great Recycling Plant after it's engine explodes, the wheels and doors all fall off in unison, and a pall of smoke fills the sky), I doubt that budget is enough to allow us to buy what the environment and the government will prefer, or even want us to buy.
In fact, I see a time ahead when folks like us won't be able to drive purely because of the enormous initial cost of upgrading to the new technology. Then we'll have to rely on the superbly efficient system of public transport we have here in the good old U.K. ::)
Or has that joke already been aired too? :uneasy:
Yes, sorry, I did correct myself later that it was your joke.
You're obviously right about the volume of traffic on motorways, but it's still not what most drivers do most of the time, the majority of trips are less than 10 miles.
I'm sure infrastructure will improve, it has to, and I suspect big brands increasingly getting behind hybrid technology will help to drive it. The investment in things like Forumla-E is telling too, Audi and Porsche withdrawing from Le Mans racing to focus on electric cars clearly shows where they see merit in focusing.
The sheer number of cars on the roads means there will always be a buoyant second hand market, can't see that changing. Plenty of people won't ever be able to afford a brand new car. 99% of the ones you see are either leased or financed anyway, so that's a bit moot.
Its all moot until the solve how to protect the batteries in a crash.
That just links back nicely to the OP. It isn't moot at all, that's just remarkable because it's a novel failure mechanism. You see plenty of burnt out cars, but that doesn't mean that ICE cars need better protection to avoid bursting into flames in a crash.
I can't see the combustibility of batteries being a barrier to the adoption of electric vehicle technology at all personally.
Ok hpefully some of you good gents can educate me on this as @Nick (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1132) has pointed out the range he gets in his electric car, how long are the batteries expected to last in an electric car?
I know that depends on all the variables (how often used, temperature, how it's charged and to what % its charged and discharged), but as an average what do they say is the life expectancy? I ask as if its a case of they last 5 years but cost thousands to replace when they decide not to play anymore then it stands fairly to say its a kick up the back side saying they are more cost efficient as what you save on fuel ends up going on some fresh AAA to power it.
Also with battery cars I think the biggest draw back it the sheer weight of the batteries, a friend of mine has an electric car and when the car had it's batteries out it was almost half the weight! So while electric battery cars are a step in the right direction long term unless someone can work how to make them much lighter they don't really do the job apart from small journeys, well unless you intend to buy the tesla truck which has a range of 800 miles, but takes 2 days to charge!
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2018, 04:42:37 PM
That just links back nicely to the OP. It isn't moot at all, that's just remarkable because it's a novel failure mechanism. You see plenty of burnt out cars, but that doesn't mean that ICE cars need better protection to avoid bursting into flames in a crash.
I can't see the combustibility of batteries being a barrier to the adoption of electric vehicle technology at all personally.
In most crashes a pierced petrol tank wont explode, in a Lithium car battery a pierced battery will explode.
Quote from: acko22 on June 18, 2018, 04:46:59 PM
Ok hpefully some of you good gents can educate me on this as @Nick (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1132) has pointed out the range he gets in his electric car, how long are the batteries expected to last in an electric car?
As with all these things there are a huge number of variables. A lot of manufacturers seem to offer 8 year/100k mile warranties on the battery, but that's totally different to a reasonable life expectation.
Given they seem popular for taxis in London one would assume it's not insignificant, I've never read stories about significant degradation in battery life, which you'd assume there would be if they were wearing out prematurely. Sure there'll be a glut of them though once people's cars do reach a point where the range is no longer useful.
Aside from all that as you say, the batteries are bloody heavy, and although they can be put low in the car to improve the centre of gravity you're never going to get away from the sheer weight of them, even with reasonable improvements in the technology.
Quote from: acko22 on June 18, 2018, 04:46:59 PM
Ok hpefully some of you good gents can educate me on this as @Nick (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1132) has pointed out the range he gets in his electric car, how long are the batteries expected to last in an electric car?
I think that the honest truth is probably that no-one really knows in real world conditions. My car has been on the market for about nine years, under the Mitsi brand and when I bought it two years ago, neither Citroen, Peugeot nor Mitsubishi (the three brands badging it in the UK) had ever changed out an expired battery. That was seven years into the product's life, and I am fairly sure was a Europe-wide piece of info.
As I understand it, the warranty the manufacturers have been offering on the batteries has been steadily increasing as experience grows.
So, not short, but as I remarked in my earlier post, I am rather expecting that the car will be scrap when the battery expires. But how much is an average specced 10 or more year old city runabout worth anyway?
Quote from: Snowwolflair on June 18, 2018, 04:53:22 PM
In most crashes a pierced petrol tank wont explode, in a Lithium car battery a pierced battery will explode.
Personally, I leave worrying about the safety engineering of the cars I drive to the designers and to the people who type approve them as roadworthy. I'm sure they have noticed that there's a lithium battery powering EVs and am equally sure that the cars are crash tested. ;)
Battery life is a very important factor. Not just in length of time/mileage, but in cost. As stated, most manufacturers give 8 years/100k miles.
But in my wife's case that would have meant a new electric car would, if she still did the same job, be out of warranty in less than four years. Colleagues she worked with would see warranty end a great deal quicker than that. (Her old work car is now in the hands of her daughter and has over 200k on the clock, and still going strong.)
Replacement cost of batteries, excluding fitting etc etc, is currently cited net-wide as anywhere between £1000 and £6000, depending on vehicle, as far as my quick search on Google suggests.
So if I were to buy a second hand electric car in, say, ten years time, how will I fare in the battery replacment stakes? Battery condition of my new purchase will be down to many factors, such as how it has been used, how often - and how fully - has it been charged, how many miles or days between charges, was the previous owner a mileage cruncher or a mileage miser, et al, Do I really want to trust the earnest assurances from the ever-smiling salesperson that "there's plenty of life left in them yet sir." :hmmm: :hmmm:
Could be a cost many would find hard to swallow.
Quote from: daffy on June 18, 2018, 05:31:02 PM
Battery life is a very important factor. Not just in length of time/mileage, but in cost. As stated, most manufacturers give 8 years/100k miles.
But in my wife's case that would have meant a new electric car would, if she still did the same job, be out of warranty in less than four years. Colleagues she worked with would see warranty end a great deal quicker than that. (Her old work car is now in the hands of her daughter and has over 200k on the clock, and still going strong.)
Sure you're right, and I'm sure we'll reach that point. I wonder what the residual value of an original Prius is now? They must be 15 years old, so one would reasonably expect the batteries to be rather 'well used'. There must be examples with very high mileage.
There will always be outliers for whom technology isn't as appropriate, and I'd suggest those doing >25k miles a year are not best suited to EVs at present!
Quote from: Nick on June 18, 2018, 05:28:53 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on June 18, 2018, 04:53:22 PM
In most crashes a pierced petrol tank wont explode, in a Lithium car battery a pierced battery will explode.
Personally, I leave worrying about the safety engineering of the cars I drive to the designers and to the people who type approve them as roadworthy. I'm sure they have noticed that there's a lithium battery powering EVs and am equally sure that the cars are crash tested. ;)
That's what they said about the safety on Grenfell Tower, and as the MD of Audi has just been arrested for bypassing safety systems....... :goggleeyes:
don't hold your breath.
There are enough on the roads, that don't explode in crashes, for it not to be a huge concern still IMO.
Yes, but that's true of many other components in a
car - your wife would burn through most warranties fairly quickly.
And modern car parts are seriously expensive across the piece. I've had two pieces of work done under extended warranty on my diesel car in the last year where the parts alone were pushing two grand.
And don't even think of the central management system failing...
In my engineering capacity I was at an electric car symposium recently and they are scared :censored: something really bad happens due to a battery explosion.
I imagine they are. Doesn't make it more of a risk though ;)
Quote from: Nick on June 18, 2018, 05:57:03 PM
Yes, but that's true of many other components in a
car - your wife would burn through most warranties fairly quickly.
And modern car parts are seriously expensive across the piece. I've had two pieces of work done under extended warranty on my diesel car in the last year where the parts alone were pushing two grand.
And don't even think of the central management system failing...
I agree, cost of parts is high these days, and most things are not for the average person to change out. But a battery for electrics cars is an exceptionally high price IMO and is more likely to fail, at least in my 47 years of driving experience, than the fossil fuel cars most expensive parts, like the CMS, or EMU, catalytic converters, or whatever.
I found these interesting comments on a US page, from 2017, about costs, life expectancy and the like of a Nissan Leaf's battery:
Quote. If you own a 2011 to 2015 Nissan LEAF, replacing the battery will cost you exactly $5,499, plus installation, which the company estimates will take about 3 hours. Owners of 2011 and 2012 cars must also add $225 for a special adapter kit to retrofit the new battery to their cars.
And note what it says here a out warranty duration with regard to capacity loss:
QuoteThe warranty on the new battery is the same as it is in a brand new LEAF — 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against capacity loss.
Whole article is here: https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/04/nissan-leaf-replacement-battery-will-cost-5499/
Other webpages give lots of different views, some of them very positive in respect of electric cars, and I await with interest how things progress. I do like the idea of environmentally friendly vehicles that mean asthmatic folks like me get a better day out in town, and I hope that costs will slide down as technology advances - as it usually does.
The oldest electric rubber tyred vehicle I have driven dates from circa 1914 (we think) and when it was restored 30 years ago (!) It managed Ipswich to Felixstowe & return on one charge (with a bit of help up the hill out of Ipswich..) - ie about 25 miles on secondhand lead-acid batteries.
About that time, the firm I worked for had a recently built electric Leyland Sherpa van that had a range of around 40 miles and a top speed of 60 mph!
If someone comes up with an electric car that does 300 miles between charges, I would certainly be interested.......
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2018, 06:05:54 PM
I imagine they are. Doesn't make it more of a risk though ;)
Indeed.
There are something in the order of 3 million plug-in electric vehicles on the world's roads. Probably a billion laptops and tablets, judging by current shipment rates, and just shy of five billion mobile phones. The majority of those will have lithium batteries in them. We can reasonably assume that a sizeable number of these devices crash, or are dropped, crushed, and sat on every day. Yet fires are so rare that a burning Tesla hits the front pages. (Note, by the way, that it was burning, well alight, but did not explode. The car's only occupant exited the vehicle safely having driven with it aflame for some unspecified time.)
Yes, lithium batteries are energy dense and potentially dangerous. So is much of modern life. There are a myriad ways in which most of us could be poisoned, injured or killed in the next 24 hours by routine aspects of 21st century life. But those risks are held at bay by design and regulation. And by learning from mistakes.
Be aware, yes, but let's not descend into simple scaremongering.
A few "home thoughts from abroad":
1. In the interest of full disclosure I drive an 11 year old hybrid SUV with 155,000 miles on the clock. Either the battery is getting weaker or I'm driving harder as the mpg has dropped from 27 to 24 (US gallon, so 34 to 30 in imperial units). Replacement battery pack runs about $3,000 installed at the dealer and about half that in the increasingly available non-dealer garages. I bought it as it was the quickest accelerating Toyota available at the time (locked rotor torque guys!). At the time of purchase, there was a government incentive of a tax credit - but I couldn't use it based on my tax status.
2. I've just moved from a 70%-retiree development largely populated with ex-academic city-dwellers - car of choice the Prius. Apparently the ninth beatitude was Blessed are the Prii for they shall save fuel. With the rise in Wall Street, some are now trading those in for Teslas. Possibly not surprising with the apparent competition between Toyota designers to make each new Prius uglier than the last and still have it sell.
3. Bumper sticker seen on the back of a Tesla "This Car Runs on Coal" - doubt it was placed there by the owner.
4. In my experience, when a government gets to promote a technology (think MTBE in fuels, ethanol in fuels, etc.) they often find out later they've got it wrong by which time enormous investments have been made.
5. There's an acronym current over here CATNAP - stands for Cheapest Available Technology Narrowly Avoiding Prosecution - that explains a lot. Guess the Audi CEO pushed the envelope a bit too hard.
6. Every now and then hydrogen is raised as a possible fuel. Until someone opens a hydrogen mine on Jupiter, it will remain an energy transportation method and not a fuel. Hydrogen comes from either electrolysis (rare, electric power intensive and, if on a massive scale, what do you do with the oxygen) or predominantly from catalytic reformation of a hydrocarbon (usually methane or petroleum gas) so the CO2 output is similar to just using the hydrocarbon even before you consider the efficiency of the plant and the distribution infrastructure.
7. Increasing the national energy use of electricity is going to require huge investments in generating plant and will delay retirement of less efficient/dirtier plant unless brown-outs are politically acceptable. Without significant improvement/deployment of central power storage systems (batteries, pumped storage, etc.) emissions can actually increase with the use of solar/wind generation as a result of older plant being needed as slow-roll backup.
8. There have been several comments in this thread about the advantages of low/zero road tax for electric vehicles - what's the betting that will continue if a large proportion of vehicles no longer pay for the roads and the politicians cast about for ways to fill the gap in revenue.
9. If I remember my courses and lab work on engines at college, a diesel works best/cleanest at constant speed and load, so I've never understood why road vehicles have not gone the diesel-hybrid route. Maybe things have changed in 40+ years?
Personally, I think there will be an increasing role for electric vehicles be they pure electric, plug-in hybrids or even traditional hybrids. Electricity storage is the key to the success of any of these technologies and, while huge strides are being made in that field, the energy density inherent in deploying systems that perform in a similar way to the current "dirty" alternatives (petrol/diesel ICE's) will present issues that I fear are only just becoming apparent to "the powers that be" (see 4 above). Remember when people were being told that they could not fly with their Samsung smartphones?
Now I'll duck from all the incoming munitions...
Jon
Well Jon, no gunfire from me after your excellently written post. Most informative and well received by yours truly. Thanks. :thumbsup:
The future alone will tell how successful, or not, the latest buzz-subject will be in the long term.
Would anyone here fly in an electric-powered airliner ?
In the long term, yes they are probably the current favoured option for the future, but they're not there yet. The battery technology still needs to develop further before they can truly satisfy everyone's needs.. Personally I'd like to see more exploration of the hydrogen fuel cell route. It should overcome the range and recharge/refill downtime issues which are the biggest (legitimate) criticisms of Battery Electric Vehicles, and conversion of existing infrastructure is also relatively easy - most fuel stations already supply LPG which uses very similar storage and dispensing methods.
As a side point; a survey by (I think) the AA last year indicated that over half of pure electric vehicles in the UK were not the only car in the household. Most EV users also had access to a second usually conventional vehicle so even those who do own them don't see them as fit for all purposes...
Use the EV round town where it gets you an exemption from the congestion charge and genuinely offers running cost savings, but use the Proper motor' for long hauls out of town. (Think alao all those celebrities who like to shout on chat shows that they drive a Prius, while neglecting to mention that they also own a Ferrari and two Range Rovers...)
Best of both maybe - a practical but expensive solution...
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 18, 2018, 09:43:58 PM
Would anyone here fly in an electric-powered airliner ?
Yes, absolutely. Why not? Obviously such a thing doesn't exist yet, but manufacturers and airlines are working toward one in the not too distant future.
Quote from: Nick on June 18, 2018, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 18, 2018, 09:43:58 PM
Would anyone here fly in an electric-powered airliner ?
Yes, absolutely. Why not? Obviously such a thing doesn't exist yet, but manufacturers and airlines are working toward one in the not too distant future.
They could mow the grass when taking off and landing then :laugh:
They may be the future but at present I cannot see it for decades unless the technology improves very rapidly
a) Life of battery. My petrol Golf has a range of up to 500 miles of motorway driving, better if I keep the speed down, and takes 5-10 minutes to refuel (en route?) When will we see batteries that can do that?.
b)Infrastructure for charging. My younger daughter lives in a street of Edwardian terraced houses. Often has to park in a different street. So how does charging work? And can the grid cope?
c)physical life of the battery, its size and weight.
d) Environmental impact of making all those batteries, including replacements if less than the overal life of the car, and the issues of disposal
e) my elder daughter is registered partially sighted. Electric cars must be able to make an audible noise at a similar level to a regular car..
Out of interest with current hybrids, where does the battery go? Is it in the boot, in which case where is the spare wheel. Incidentally I was not impressed that when I bought my most recent Golf, I had to pay extra (off E Bay) for one of those get you home spares. How daft selling cars without a spare. I have needed to use it.
As you may guess I like the idea of electrics, and even hybrids, but there are far too many issues before I will feel able to change from a low emission petrol engine. And frankly I don't believe the Govts avowed targets are sensible.
The current thinking is the same answer as your flashlight. The car industry will come together to agree on standard interchangeable batteries. Filling stations will become places to swap batteries, probably by robot, and you will take out a subscription for the service based on your mileage. you would never own the battery.
Quote from: class37025 on June 18, 2018, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: The Q on June 18, 2018, 02:31:34 PM
I've already converted my motorboat, it now has a 10Kw 3 phase electric motor, 24 2v Lead acids. 4 solar panels, and a 4kw generator.
Battery power alone gives me a range of about 10 miles, generator on and it's hundreds of miles.. but for all the short journeys I do, Solar panels are enough.
It used to have a 1.5l BMC diesel ( a huge 35HP when new, most of which had escaped), that died...
so sort of like a diesel electric loco....
generator runs at it's most efficient and supplies the tractive power.....
what 'notch' do you run in :smiley-laughing:
Oh it's much more modern than that, it's a frequency controlled motor with a little joystick on the dashboard. As you potter a long and open up you csn hear the generator loading .
So my " notch" is generally just below when the generator starts working hard...
You cannot use t he generator alone. Which is handy as it means I get 30% off the broads tax ( like road tax but for boats). If it were direct generator drive I'd have to pay full broads tax. So it saves me about £100 a year..in about 100 years it will have paid for itself.....
Quote from: Snowwolflair on June 19, 2018, 12:22:29 AM
The current thinking is the same answer as your flashlight. The car industry will come together to agree on standard interchangeable batteries. Filling stations will become places to swap batteries, probably by robot, and you will take out a subscription for the service based on your mileage. you would never own the battery.
From what I have been told by a friend who works in a M-Benz dealership, they have an area of the workshop cordoned off when changing batteries and the fitter wears a full chemical protection suit incase the battery explodes. So it is not like swapping a battery on your cordless drill.
I am given to understand if one cell fails then the battery is scrapped, there seems no provision to replace just one cell.
When I did my apprenticeship I was always told that to prolong the life of a lead acid battery was to run it almost flat and then slowly charge it, fast charging would buckle the plates and shorten the life of the battery. Does this happen with Lithium batteries?
I think electric cars do have a future when they have the range and the charging problems sorted, but that is a long way off and no doubt I shall be too old to drive then anyway.
Geoff
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 18, 2018, 09:43:58 PM
Would anyone here fly in an electric-powered airliner ?
On the BBC today:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-44529509/will-norway-s-electric-plane-take-off (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-44529509/will-norway-s-electric-plane-take-off)
Bit small but watch the whole video and well electric cars may just need to come on fast since in 7 years time they are going to be the only ones sold in Norway!
a serious question, but if you get a flat battery, is there any point in calling the AA / RAC / GREEN FLAG etc, or are they not equipped to charge these.
while I can see the supposed advantages of electric vehicles, I would certainly not consider one. more power stations generating the leccie, to me equals more emissions, just not from an exhaust pipe but from a chimney.
if I need to go somewhere I want to be able to get in, start and go. not have to plot a series of 60-70 mile hops between charging points.
if anything, the idea of electric drive would have, IMHO, be linked to a petrol or diesel engine, not a stand alone system.
I seem to remember TG, the proper one, doing a comparison between the impact of a Prius and a 3.5 Range Rover, over a lifetime of IIRC 20 years.
taking into account the impact of building the vehicles, running / servicing them, and disposing of them, the Range Rover won hands down.
I think we're just repeating ourselves now:
- EVs aren't great for long distances, but most people don't do long distances most of the time, however it's hard to argue with wanting to be able to do it unimpeded
- the infrastructure needs to improve in order for them to be a viable alternative to ICE powered cars
I think hybrids will proliferate for a couple of decades at least for these reasons, the benefits are there, with fewer/none of the drawbacks. Ultimately we may gravitate toward full EVs, but not at the moment.
As for the Prius/Range Rover comparison it's impossible to be objective about things like that. What's the mix of energy production for the electricity? How's it driven? What's "better" about the production or disposal of one or the other? We've already touched on the ethical issues around production of the li-ion batteries. I think over a period of 20 years there are far too many variables to really be able to make a meaningful comparison.
Interesting question about the AA et al though, you'd think that a "portable charger" would be useful, but no idea if they're so equipped, or if such a thing would give a useful amount of charge in a sensible time.
Quote from: class37025 on June 19, 2018, 10:48:39 AM
a serious question, but if you get a flat battery, is there any point in calling the AA / RAC / GREEN FLAG etc, or are they not equipped to charge these
AA if you have the "Relay" option in your cover will transport you to the nearest charging point. (note: Most EVs have to be lifted and can't be towed so it's wait for the lorry rather than a man in a van job).
I presume joining a motorway with insufficient charge to reach the next charging point carries the same offence and penalties as not having enough fuel to reach the next fuel station?
The proposal is a share power cable (an electronic tow rope) that allows you to follow their van to a charging point.
A lot of this is being figured out at the moment so expect some industry announcements in the next year or so on solving a lot of these problems.
Electric cars in the uk are only moving the pollution problem from the town centers to the countryside were the power stations are located,point this out to the green lobby and they mumble something under there breath and move away rather quickly, add in the fact that during last winter the power grid was almost at 100% capacity with threats of power cuts for large consumers and thats without a few 1000 cars being charged.
Countrys like norway have a huge advantage on the green stakes as almost all of there generation is hydro,iceland uses geothermal ,making hydrogen cells almost free,but here in the uk were still burning stuff to produce electricity.
Quote from: themadhippy on June 19, 2018, 12:48:48 PM
Countrys like norway have a huge advantage on the green stakes as almost all of there generation is hydro,iceland uses geothermal ,making hydrogen cells almost free,but here in the uk were still burning stuff to produce electricity.
I had understood that the boost to our electricity supplies is supposed to come from the increasing volume of hot air generated in parliament, the media and on-line discussion sites talking about green alternatives.
You have to start somewhere. Last year we had our first day without power generated from coal, and earlier this year we went 3 days on gas, nuclear and renewables, so I'm not sure it's fair to say it's simply shifting the problem to the countryside.
The electricity mix definitely needs to change to realise the full benefits, and you're absolutely right that we're not ideally suited for some of the sources enjoyed by other countries, but that's also not a reason to stop developing the technology IMO.
Over 50% of our electricity now comes from renewables or nuclear of this 10% of the total is biofuel so emissions should be down.Living in a city with possibly the worst vehicle emissions in Scotland anything moving petrol/diesel powered cars out would be helpful. Maybe in the long run for hgv this would work.
https://www.eta.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/HGV.jpg (https://www.eta.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/HGV.jpg)
I live in High Wycombe which is all hills so how do cars like the Prius cope with steep hills do they still have to go into diesel mode or can the electric motors manage to transport four heavy people up them ?
Most of the private hire cars in Wycombe are Prius but as I don't use them I haven't had the chance to ask the drivers.
Perhaps some one can answer here.
Bob Tidbury
Electric motors have huge amounts of torque - so should perform better on hills than a petrol or even a diesel car, all other things being equal. It's why there are some crazy 0-60 times coming from Tesla et al.
Aren't nearly all hybrids backed by a petrol, rather than diesel engine? I assume this is because small petrol engines are still quite useful, whilst a 1 litre naturally aspirated diesel engine would be truly horrific!
how will ECs be taxed? if petrol/diesel sales come down significantly , the Revenue will want to tax chargers/ECs/electricity used to regain the revenue!!
the cars need a £5000 subsidy now ( and are £10k more expensive than a petrol version (approx.)) so transport will become a very expensive pastime!
Quote from: Railwaygun on June 20, 2018, 11:51:39 PM
how will ECs be taxed? if petrol/diesel sales come down significantly , the Revenue will want to tax chargers/ECs/electricity used to regain the revenue!!
the cars need a £5000 subsidy now ( and are £10k more expensive than a petrol version (approx.)) so transport will become a very expensive pastime!
Oh that's a can of worms. There are already rumblings about cars being charged through cheap energy white meters. I think long term all energy will taxed in a converging way as we go to all electricity, and I am thinking about gas running out and a move away from heating oils in the long run.
As for the cost for new cars, they will drop to be the same as current equivalent models, but you probably wont own the battery you will lease the use of charged batteries and replace them under subscription. There will also be a significant battery materials recycling industry created as well.
Quote from: njee20 on June 19, 2018, 04:35:58 PM
Electric motors have huge amounts of torque - so should perform better on hills than a petrol or even a diesel car, all other things being equal. It's why there are some crazy 0-60 times coming from Tesla et al.
I'd agree with this, also if the electric motor is direct to the drive system as they don't necessesarily need to go through a gearbox there are large savings from not losing power in the box.
So on my motor boat I only Need a 10kW electric motor which is direct drive.
Whereas the old 35HP Diesel which needed a gearbox for forward and reverse and therefore losses (admittedly boat gear boxes of that vintage were not as efficient as a modern Car gear box..)
1HP = 743 W so if the diesel had no losses to the prop that would have been equivalent of 26kW